What does MRP think of John Gottman?

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February 9, 2019

Gottman is I think the biggest/hottest couples counselor out there. I've read a bunch of his stuff after my last breakup in an effort to better understand how relationships work. His work appeals to be because he is a researcher and has done a lot of empirical research. (His books are "the 7 principles for making marriage work" and "the science of trust")

That said, some of the red pill stuff that I've seen so far appeals to me as well, at least the stuff about lifting, which I need to do more of.

I imagine--being that Gottman is a mainstream couples counselor--that he is the polar opposite of the red pill theory, but I want to get the thoughts of actual red-pillers on this, maybe I'm wrong.

What do or don't you like out his ideas? What are your criticisms? Not looking to debate or fight, just trying to hear "all sides" of this business so that I can figure out the truth for myself.


Post Information
Title What does MRP think of John Gottman?
Author user123446777
Upvotes 8
Comments 41
Date 09 February 2019 05:00 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/217218
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/aou42w/what_does_mrp_think_of_john_gottman/
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liftthe red pill

[–]BobbyPeruRed Beret12 points13 points  (4 children) | Copy

You lost me at couples counselor

[–]user123446777[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Ok, now i read your profile and see that you are getting a master's in counseling I'm even more interested in your thoughts.

[–]BobbyPeruRed Beret4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I’m a firm believer in individual counseling instead of couples counseling.

[–]user123446777[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ahh, I see. I'm in individual counseling now. Never tried couples counseling.

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Lol fair enough, I do hope there are people who will engage with this question. Maybe this is the wrong sub for a question like this?

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

I think he did a great job as Fred Flintstone.

[–]RedPillCoach2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Bluepill Professor was inspired to do a MRP basic class and had it all formulated with every episode named and outlined in a single weekend. Everything was planned from the beginning.

Red Pill coaches videos get better over time (and yes, I have been told I look like John Goodman by many people. You will have to get in line to insult me with that one) so it took time to develop my purpose and theme for the newer videos. Marriage or Divorce? The answer finally came to me but it took time. Until I remembered that the stay plan is the same as the go plan.

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy


[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

He was also well cast for the voice of James P Sullivan in Monsters Inc.

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]perfectcrystalprison4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

You'll find a lot of overlap, phrased in completely different styles.

For example, one of Gottman's key principles is the 4 horsemen: critism, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. Red Pill simplifies this much of this concept into STFU and to not DEER. Unless you go rambo, STFU does not equal stonewalling.

MRP tends to cut straight to the point. Other than that, I've repeatedly discovered that the underlying principles are consistently backed up by science. This shouldn't be surprising since the red pill foundation is experiential evidence over a decent amount of time.

[–]RedPillCoach1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I have an entire video series on the sidebar "Red Pilling" Gottman. Not many tweaks to make it work but a few.

Red Pill Coach on Advanced Topics in Marriage

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Haha already watched that video. Someone linked it above. Thnx though. I'll definitely check out the rest of your series.

[–]RedPillCoach1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

Marriage Counselor? Do you know that 80% of couples do WORSE after marriage counseling?

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

No, I didn't know that, and I would be curious to see a source for that claim, if true.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I can't find it. The most recent NYT report was that 25% of couples do worse after MC. Weirdly, nearly 40% of couples are divorced within 2 years of MC so I don't know how they get the figure 25%!

I think I got this idea from Gottman who reports that less than 20% of couples make improvements in MC. That would mean 80% don't.

[–]user123446777[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Thanks for taking the time to look for the sources--i appreciate that.

I suspect that there might be some "correlation is not causation" business going on there--like those relationships were headed for the rocks anyway, but definitely cannot rule out the idea that MC DOES worsen, or hasten the demise of the relationship. I'll keep it in mind.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

What type of patient/clients do you think would do more poorly using traditional MC (communicate, listen, talk, talk, expose your weaknesses, cry, dig open your emotional weaknesses in front of the wife)?

What type of patient/client would do worse in "Red Pill" informed MC (be the man, let her be the woman, appreciate the differences, cultivate personal and leadership excellence)?

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

When you say, "what types of patient/client" .... what exactly do you mean? Men vs women? Or different types or men and women?

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

All of the above.

Let me give my opinion in confidence that it will not unduly influence yours.

I think traditional MC assumes toxic masculinity and that the man is abusive, a cheater, or at least quasi abusive. Thus when the man is indeed toxically masculine, abusive, or a cheater, traditional MC- emote, share, feel, dredge up your childhood, expose your weaknesses- in short, bring down the man. Then in that case, MC probably "works" because you have a guy who genuinely needs to be a non-asshole.

However, in the vast majority of cases, traditional MC is toxic. The man is already weak. He already emotes far more than he should. He needs strength, not an expert probing his weaknesses and exposing them to the delight of the wife.

For women it is the inverse. If she is a dominant, arrogant, angry ballbuster traditional MC is toxic. If she is a wallflower who is getting beat up (figuratively or literally) then traditional MC can be useful.

That's what I think. What do you think?

[–]twyste0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It sounds like you are assuming that divorce is “worse” than staying together? Sometimes terminating the relationship is the best outcome for both partners.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are correct to identify my religious and marriage coach bias in favor of couples staying together. I am curious why marriage counselors do not have a similar bias in favor of marriage. People come to you to fix the marriage, not to be guided into a divorce.

As a coach I do whatever the client wants to do and frequently check with them to be sure that is that they still want. If they want to stay married, we work on that. If they want to divorce, we work on that. I generally acknowledge collaborative law principles that if I am working with a couple on marriage, then I withdraw if it moves to divorce. My incentive is then to keep the marriage together. The marriage counselors financial incentive is to break up the couple- which effectively doubles the therapy sessions and refer the one you saw second to somebody else.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockBig Red Machine4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

“Gottman is I think the biggest/hottest couples counselor”


[–]z2a1-91 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy


[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]ChokingDownRPRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

LOL - Gottman is so hot right now

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Check out Bluepill Professor's YouTube channel. He does a whole series on Gottman. You'll find what you're looking for there.

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]framelessglasses2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Couples counseling is precipitated at the end of a relationship. It is a method of making somebody feel good about ending the relationship.

AKA Marital Hospice.

Hospice care is a type of care and philosophy of care that focuses on the palliation of a chronically ill, terminally ill or seriously ill patient's (relationship) pain and symptoms, and attending to their emotional and spiritual needs.

No matter the intent, the flow is down the drain.

[–]uton_gili1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Gottman is one of the only couple's therapists that has done actual research and is evidence-based. I haven't seen much that contradicts MRP ideals.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

What do you think is the intent of couples counseling?

[–]hystericalbonding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

What do you think is the intent of couples counseling?

For the counselors to work out their own dysfunction. Some are skilled and helpful, but the majority are a complete waste of time and money.

[–]user123446777[S] -1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy

I guess to make the relationship better?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

Very few businesses are profitable if their end goal is to make themselves obsolete.

[–]user123446777[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Lol, that's true. I guess that's a general problem with having a market system. However, under that logic I tend to trust gottman a bit more than a standard therapist as he works put of a university and so has spent a lot of time insulated from market forces.

[–]RedPillCoach2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

MRP is for whatever works.

Gottman, like Red Pill, bases his entire methodology on observation rather than Marxist claptrap and feminist ideology. So it is hardly surprising they largely match.

I have found Crucible Therapy (Schnarch) to be even closer to Red Pill but Gottman has a complete system.

[–]user123446777[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hmmm, I've seen schnarch mentioned a couple times in my journeys as well. I'll have to check him out.

What are your thoughts on Esther Perel and Helen Fisher? Also authors I've seen mentioned often.

EDIT: I want to add, just for the oddity value of this conversation taking place in a red-pill space that Schnarch was reccomended to me by a very insightful divorced lesbian.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I agree with this. David Schnarch’s stuff is so good and although he uses different terms than Red Pill - the concepts are the same. What is amazing is that Red Pill mostly arrived at the same conclusions independently!

I also like Terry Real. His stuff on losing strategies is brilliant. But Red Pill so often cuts to the truth. It takes Terry and David so long to basically say STFU for example.

[–]RedPillCoach1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Red Pill mostly arrived at the same conclusions independently

Check out what the Bible has to say about women and relationships for another independent evaluation.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Schnarch is 73. I need to see him lecture in person before he retires.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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