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When i say No the boss Stonewalls me

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March 1, 2019
19 upvotes

I have a strong history of being a yes man, this includes work. Im recovering slowly from that.

My boss lets call him Ben, he calls me into a meeting following small talk the following conversation takes place.

Ben: hey foxshitnasty we are a 24/7 operation as you know and we need someone to take care of things and be on call.

Me: i agree i can put a roster together and look at payments for the team etc.

Ben: the others arent really competent, i want you to be available to answer the phone and solve any issues. There is an extra $1k per year for you.

Me: just me?

Ben: yes

Me: 24/7/365?

Ben: yes

Me: $1k isn't much to be on call all the time every day of the year

Ben: that's all I can offer

Me: it's not really worth it for me so No, but im happy to discuss a bigger roster with the others involved and a structured and agreed pay i can get them up to speed and we can make it work.

Ben: here is the thing, I already told the management team you would do it.

Me: You should have checked with me first this isnt reasonable. No i cannot.

Ben: (try's various tactics, whats best for the business etc)

Me: No - it needs to be more money i cant do that, happy to discuss further (broken record)

The meeting ends, and the stonewalling starts for a period of two weeks. Its pretty good and quiet so i get my head down and get jobs finished.

One of my staff approaches me, he is nervous lets call him Bob. He asks me if im leaving? No im not leaving why do you say that. Well Ben asked me if i can run the place without you, Bob is mid level skilled but not confident. He expresses that he isnt ready for me to leave and will leave if he is asked to do what i do. I say im not leaving at the moment. (odd i say nothing to boss STFU) few weeks pass.

Bob approaches me tonight, "hey is it ok to be off tomorrow morning?". He wasnt on leave and didnt have any left so i ask whats up? Well Ben has invited me to play golf tomorrow but i dont have any more leave he said it dosent matter and not worry about booking time off. This is the first i am aware of it.

Now typically i cant be doing with this shit, boss being a cunt just get another job (logic). I am however priced out of the market, in order to get a job even close im looking at a 4 hour a day commute. I have been looking since xmas.

My boss is my boss the company pays money so i do what he says but what does the recovering nice guy do? STFU and over look this or escalate to HR and no doubt my life will be more difficult. Can i challenge my boss, its unprofessional in my opinion and disrespectful behavior (lacking actual evidence)... again bosses can make our lives difficult if they want to.

Summary: boss stonewalls me when i say no, boss takes my staff to play golf and gives them time off paid. is it likely that one of you cunts is my boss. If so fuck off, also advice please.


Post Information
Title When i say No the boss Stonewalls me
Author FoxShitNasty83
Upvotes 19
Comments 83
Date 01 March 2019 08:20 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/220362
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/aw2g6a/when_i_say_no_the_boss_stonewalls_me/
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[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret18 points19 points  (6 children) | Copy

Clearly you should take the boss's job and put him on call.

1k is not enough for 24x7 on call, I agree.

Go find another job. Get your side hustle going. And become invaluable at work, knowing you can be replaced at any minute.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

All over it, solid advice Steel. Thanks

[–]johneyapocalypseThe one that says "Bad Motherfucker"0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Fox,

There's a third option.

Don't give up on turning things around with your boss, or at least doing so while you potentially consider (and pursue) your other options.

Businesses are very much like relationships: chaos (not chaos like fake-ass douchebag posted about the other day), strife, struggles, and the like... and especially problems. They'll never end. Fix one today and there'll be three tomorrow.

You could approach him, acknowledge his concerns, thank him for thinking of you, share your perspective regarding the problem, and provide him with the solution to that problem; the solution simply being, something that's not you.

If there's a problem, there's a problem.

Go with a solution and you're a problem-solver rather than a complainer... or a quitter.

I know you can find that solution, fox.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah I'm a fixer that's for sure, it's my job, it's my strength I fix shit.

My boss or the business has a problem and it's something I can help fix. Same rules apply. Thanks

[–]johneyapocalypseThe one that says "Bad Motherfucker"1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good deal. Keep in mind, too, that there are scores of remote workers operating on the other end of the timezone spectrum, including nights and weekends, in places where $1,000 goes a long-ass way. If UEMG's negotiating advice doesn't work out, you could "rethink it," take on the assignment, and outsource it in some way, shape, or form, and likely still monetize it yourself for doing very little.

I imagine someone here already recommended that as an option.

[–]alphabachelor3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

This.

And I’d start documenting everything at work and find the name of a good labour lawyer in case he fires you without cause.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't know man, I'm not a huge fan of this line of thinking. It feels like once you are down that road you aren't focused on the main goal of being successful at the company or finding other work.

[–]RPeed11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

Bro, my hot take is you painted yourself into a corner over an extended time period. Now you're doing the right thing but it's too late, your boss is a prick etc.

This is why you must have a bug out fund of cash and options before you rock the boat. That is the only way to be OI when you are playing with your livelihood.

If you didn't need options before, you fucking need them now.

That being said, if all it's going to cost you is a four hour commute, get some fucking audio-books and take a shit on his desk. It could be far, far worse. And since really you should be moving role or employer every 2-3 years anyway to remain attractive, this is all GREAT news. You sound like you can be pretty OI if you just change your mindset.

Weigh up whether you'll make more on severance before you quit though.

If you stick to your guns, your boss might fold while you look for a closer job. If you keep yourself whiter than white and you are as good as you say you are, it'll be more difficult to replace you than he thinks if and when he goes to HR. Maybe you will just get sidelined and not have to do much of anything at all. Work on a side gig or towards a dream job while someone else pays your rent.

If you get fired/laid off, just do the commute and keep looking.

Bottom line is the worst case is you get a better job.

Chill out man. Selling lemonade is better than working 24/7 for a few bucks. Set expectations and manage boundaries from the outset next time and always have several backup plans.

Don't bad mouth this guy/company in interviews. It can be hard depending on the probing but I don't make the rules. I just know that is one of them. Say you wanted something more challenging, more rewarding. Fuck it, just tell them you want the same money and LESS hours. If that's what you want and you'll get it eventually.

Getting a job is not rocket science but I have learned how to milk it harder over the years. And by "embellish" your CV, I mean always create opportunities to tell a fact, a fib and a whopper. They will not know which one is which. e.g. once you get a better job, that is a good, recent verifiable "fact". Then you can promote all the previous roles and immediately apply start applying for better ones.

I don't know what you are making but you are not really going to top out this approach until you hit $200k in the States. There are plenty of roles in most industries there and little competition. Getting past that, the competition is still low but there are fewer roles and you are likely to go longer between paychecks and travel further than four hours.

Good luck and congratulations on taking control of your life.

EDIT:
There should be a sequel to WISNIFG called IWTSFYBIHNBP (I Want To Say Fuck You But I Have No Backup Plan).

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill8 points9 points  (10 children) | Copy

You suck at negotiating, but I suspect you know that because you are here. So let's parse this out so you can see where you went wrong. The good news is, negotiations are always open, and you can always renegotiate a bad deal.

Your boss's opening salvo, you immediately started to make an offer. A big rule in negotiation, he who opens first usually is the worse off. The correct answer would have been, "What are you thinking?"

Then he would have launched into his speel, because as he said, he already told management.

You now sit back and listen. Rephrase what he said. You can now take the opportunity to refine and counter. "Hmm, what you really want is coverage but you don't consider the others competent enough? What if I can get you coverage and competence wouldn't that solve everyone's problems?"

Now like you said, he already told management that you would do it. So here's where you dig down deep and make your boss defend his position.

"here is the thing, I already told the management team you would do it."

"So let me understand, you want me to take on additional responsibilities, and workload, maintain my current capabilities and be on call and do it for $1000.00 a year?"

Now here's the magic phrase

" How am I supposed to do that?"

Now for every counter he makes, every reason he comes up with answer some version of that. I'm sorry I just can't do that. "How...". Don't use what, don't use why, use how.

He came to you with a directive, not a negotiation. Get him negotiating. Once he gets to the point where he's openly defending his position, then you can counter with the alternate plan.

The good news is, you can go back and re-open the discussion. Try what I said, open with this statement "Hey, I don't suppose you thought about what I said?"

This gives him a chance to ease into discussions. Then go into what I was saying, with different versions:

"I just can't do it effectively for that amount, how am I supposed to dedicate that kind of time?"

"How am I supposed to be on call 24/7?"

"How am I supposed to come into work after being up on a call all night?"

How how how. Always how

A great quick book to read on this is, "Never Split the Difference" By Chris Voss. Download it on Audible and you can have it listened to in 6 hours.

[–]Red-Curious2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

This, OP. You certainly should have let him open so that you can learn he already told management you'd do it. As soon as you know that, you're in the position of strength. He wrote a check on someone else's dime: yours. He needs you to fund the check he wrote, so he's at your mercy. Either he looks like a fool when his check bounces and he loses cred with management or he works with you so that you can both end in a win-win (my suggestions for that negotiation being in my comment above).

But back to /u/UEMcGill - I don't think OP actually wants to improve his situation. I think he just wants to whine about it now that he realizes his boss has more abundance than he does, which came in the form of another co-worker who could be groomed to take over OP's position. If the boss has already gone too far down that rabbit hole, OP's chances may be shot. Whining here today doesn't compensate for the wisdom he should have exercised weeks ago when this all first went down.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Only his boss knows what the boss's intentions are. The key is, reopen the negotiation. Maybe he's grooming another guy, although he's said that no one else can do it. Maybe he's playing games to motivate our hero out of fear. Who knows. But right now, he needs to move and push to get to the table or his boss will take "No deal".

[–]friendandadvisor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Not helpful. You forgot to say "You care too much" or some other generic pointless, ballsy-sounding response.

His boss is dropping signals he's to be replaced for not sucking dick with a lousy 1000 a year offer. This is what needs to be addressed, and you all start cackling about 'Frame/negotiation/power/etc..."

ETA: Further, 1K a year is not a 'negotiating' level demand. It wasn't a serious offer, because OP wasn't taken seriously by his boss. He doesn't need advice on negotiations, because the boss is not a negotiator. OP told boss that his offer was unacceptable, and left himself open for a counteroffer. Boss told him to FO. And, this is the guy you want to OP to come at with 'Oh, JB, the poison pill in this neg-I ran it up the flagpole and nobody saluted it..."

You all are in Pop Management 101. I'm surprised you didn't recommend Sun Tzu, or something equally worthless.

[–]becoming_alpha1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

u/UEMcGill is right, your boss is being a prick but they haven't found someone for 24x7 coverage yet. Follow his advice to re-open negotiations. When you get the negotiations re-opened, you'd better have a reasonable proposal you can take to his boss.

I had a job that needed 24x7 coverage from a team of 5 guys. The coverage consisted of taking the bat phone home with you and answering calls from the C-level guys at any hour. There were actually very few calls, but we took turns and you got a extra buck or two an hour for the hours you were on call. I guess technically I'm on call with my current job, my boss could call any time, but it's happened a handful of times in 6 years. Sometimes I provide an answer, sometimes I hurry and get something done, and sometimes I'm on a roadtrip and say sorry I can't do anything to help right now, call Bob.

You need to understand what the 24x7 coverage looks like and build a business case around that. It is one call for an hour each week? Is it 3 hours every night in the middle of the night? Figure out what that would average out to as actual additional work you'd need to do. Say it's 3 calls a week for an hour each. That's just an extra 3 hours of work a week. Figure out double or triple your regular pay for the inconvenience of answering your phone at any hour and interrupting your home life.

From Robert Fisher's "getting to yes" a more successful negotiation will look like you and the boss on the same side trying to solve the 24x7 coverage problem together instead of being adversaries. Saying $1k extra isn't enough isn't negotiating. Coming back with you need $x/hr for every hour you're on call, and backing that up with some data around the amount of extra work would be the next step after re-opening negotiations. Maybe you and Bob are both on call and if Bob can't handle the question he pings you. You keep track of extra hours and get paid double or triple time for those hours, and neither of you has the stress of being the only one to answer the bat phone.

Or, if you're willing to take that 4 hour commute, tell your boss to shove it and get a better job.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Great advice here.

[–]friendandadvisor-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy

This is shit. Just a ramble, not accounting for OP's situation.

You must have read a book by some female 'Negotiator for Promotions' or some shit. Knock that shit off.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

You're kind of like an old mule huh. You just drop turds and fart all over everything? Yet, not a single bit of good advice from you? What qualifications do you have besides being someone who just spews shit?

[–]friendandadvisor-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

I know, I know-just because I have nothing definitively great to offer, your nonsense is fantastic!

Just go back and read the OP, then, juxtapose it with the crap you gave, then, go try some of the shit that you're shoveling on your boss. In the same scenario. Listen: your stuff may work in a 'deal-making' environment, but, in this tableau, it is worthless.

ETA: You want to offer a seminar on Negotiation. That is not what the OP needs.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill[M] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

So here's your warning. Quit shitting all over everyone and fucking offer some real advice. Your wasting my time and everyone else's.

[–]friendandadvisor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hmm, I see that I haven't offered real advice, for which I apologize. I think that the situation doesn't look really good for OP.

Just the old "Send out the CVs"!

Good luck, OP.

ETA: In the scope of things, I think that your boss is bluffing, using Ben (??) as a tool to frighten you. He could have given you a call to say that 'I'll be needing your subordinate today", but, he used him to be his hammer, which is an obvious ploy, in my book.

[–]SteveStJohn7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Take the $1,000, look for a new job, and...

Build the on call schedule for the others. Be on call for THEM when they can't solve the problem. Use their calls to you to make a recommendation to Ben's boss* for further training opportunities for the team thus showing value and concern for the company.

*He goes around you to your subordinates, you go around him to his superiors. There is obviously no chain of command in your organization.

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is a great solution. Too bad he didn't think of it at the initial conversation stage or shortly thereafter. At this point the damage is done.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Principle rule of all relationships: he who needs the other the least has the power. Sounds to me like you're still in a weaker position needing the job more than he needs you. That's why you feel dread, your boss has viable options (Bob) and you don't (4 hr commute).

Time to create a MAP to change that.

Edit: Missed words in my haste

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fair point and I will get on it

[–]weakandsensitive4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Do you realize you're about to be fired?

What is your contingency plan?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

Interesting mind fuck. Sounds like to me he can't directly do a thing and is simply using the poor underling to shake you.

Have good documentation on good work performance? I'd remember HR is not there to help you. They are there to ensure the company doesn't get sued.

Document the fuck out of your own excellent performance and consult with a lawyer. Then keep that lawyer in your pocket in case of the first overt move. Or possibly make the first move if things get worse. And tell no one of the counsel until you need to make a move.

What is the dynamic (or do you have any relationship) with your bosses boss? Do you know how well they are getting along? If you can't find another job (which would be my priority as it sounds like this is something coming from higher up) then you are going to have to play politics.

Further down the trail with your current boss I'd start expecting more direct issues if his passive aggressive tactics don't work. Shitty performance reviews. Making up issues that weren't issues before etc. Again why I would pay an expert in the matter (legal) to advise.

Then, at least, when you go to HR you will be the one with teeth and him the possible liability.

I've always been able to find other work in shirty boss situations. I've just had to be patient and I've yet to switch for less.

So yeah, fuck him but fuck the cunts who put him in charge,too.

Makes no sense if Billy underling could do your job, he would certainly be able to field on-calls. In the mean time, if you want to play politics, you could certainly see (off record) if he'd be willing to do that function for an extra k. If you are easy enough to replace and the on-call for shit compensation is a must for your boss. I bet it'll just be part of your positions requirements going forward after you're replaced. If you are truly "priced out of the market" then the 1k on top of that for being on call to keep your job really isn't a shit deal then is it?

If you can't play politics and get to a high enough position in a company and don't have a great relationship with your direct reports and their reports you get fucked in any confrontation. You can't just keep your head down and be re-active.

But really, I'd make finding a new job a priority if you aren't close to retirement. Including relocating or a new career.

Anyway, interested to see other opinions here.

EDIT: Further thoughts as /u/marv86kw pointed out... your boss just got on record you giving an employee a free vacation day when he has none. I mean really your move at that point would have then been to cut to the chase and ask the boss if he's considered Billy underling as an on call staffer since he's taking a liking to him. You have to have work game and you're just letting this boss ride you out.

I make vetting a boss as high a priority when taking a new job or position as I do the position itself. Did this boss come in after you were working there? In the end he may be there because of his ability to get the most work for least pay out of an employee. Every boss has their perks and minuses. I know at some moments what I may have to do or deal with with my current boss and since they're the boss...well, part of your job unless it's something illegal or breaks labor laws part of your job is to do what your boss will tell you and keep them happy as long as that situation remains unchanged.

So I would wager if you don't want to go the direct confront or legal route you could buy time by making it seem like you were just playing hardball and ask if an extra 2 k for the on call would work to buy you time. Then if "no" , let them weasle it back down to 1k and realize you'll be looking for better work with a work phone on your hip.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I make vetting a boss as high a priority when taking a new job or position as I do the position itself.

This is underrated. I've worked for a fair number of bosses over the years, and vetting your future boss is a KEY part of any interview.

Will you go to war for this person? What are they like? What is their management style? Are they a hands off or hands on kind of manager. What will be your span of control? How much change can you implement? Do they want a "yes man" or someone who can give it to them straight? Etc etc.

I'm working for the 2nd best boss I've ever had right now, and let me tell you, it makes things so much easier when you have a boss that gives you that span of control, that has your back, that actively promotes your career...

Plus, it's also important to have options and abundance. OP's problem is that he has no abundance. I probably get 2-3 job offers a week, about 1 legitimate one every few weeks or so, and I go on a interview once a year like clockwork. My network is strong enough that if I were ever to be let go, I could make a few phone calls and get a equivalent or better position. I have a six month emergency fund (and more). So if stuff ever went bad, I would walk.

You're only as good as your options, u/FoxShitNasty83

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's a fair assessment to say my boss wants a yes man. I have for the last few years been that yes man. I'm angry but not at my boss not at my colleague but at myself for handling things badly. I have the world's biggest bitch of a hamster that needs a 360 turnaround. No-one has ever taught me these skills I am learning at the age of 36. At the moment It would have been better if I had just shut my mouth. One thing is certain I will have options from now on, I will always have a plan B. Thanks

[–]PersaeusRed Beret3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy

i've lost count of the number of supervisors i've had (20+). i'd say about 25% of them were to some degree like this asshat Ben.

here's what i've found. about 1/2 of them are new managers swinging their dick around; and need to be calibrated by someone like me and other senior professionals. the second 1/2 are psycho retards; and they got to go.

the initial approach is the same. i assume a frame where i am above them. i tell them no (like you did . . . i thought your dialogue was fine although you should have come back with a more specific and somewhat absurd counter offer). i belittle their ridiculous paradigms. i coach them - stroking their ego for what they do right, offering advice for improvement, pointing out how my advice is in there best interest.

when that doesn't work, i start actively plotting to get his dumb ass fired. this is not that hard because people like this have a lot of people around him holding knives behind their back just waiting for an opportunity. you have to understand the politics of your office. enlist your loyal allies in the plot (my experience is they will support but few have the balls to really jump on). when your interacting with Ben's boss and/or his lateral-equals in particular, throw out little tidbits questioning Ben's competence - nothing that incriminates you but just enough bait to get them going what a tool Ben is - at which point you start feeding them information. this keeps going until you suggest the organization might be better without Ben or Ben's boss comes to you and says Ben is out . . . do you want his job?

i've done this to two of my bosses in my career. after they got walked to the gate, i took their name tags off their door when no one was looking. i have these trophies in my desk till this day.

in other words, just like your wife - people will treat you how you allow them to treat you. get on the offensive side of the ball McFly.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I like this, he is not liked and has upset a lot of people. He has also upset the director on more than one occasion. I need to sit and have a chat with him sometime and see how I can help.

[–]RPeed0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

First off, this is awesome.

But second off, I’ve seen a dozen attempts to take someone indirectly out fail. A common theme might be a lot ended up far more overt in reality than what you describe here. Although I am sure everyone thought on the same lines.

But I have also seen people completely misread the wider political landscape and end up burned. If your boss is a useless tool and you go after him, you risk the unknown-unknown: a merger or sale or something that just makes the guy bulletproof. It might be a connection, it might be a narrative sold to a client or investor. He might not even know himself.

I have unwittingly paid for useless fuckers like this while their ex bosses no doubt went laughing to the bank. And right now there are things that would make me very hard to take out, even if I was exposed as flaunting my position. Which I do fairly openly.

I think OP should stick to the first part.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I can do his job I don't want it, he is know to be intimidated one to one. Asking people if they are going to hit him etc.. In that instance (prepping) I would laugh and end the discussion or leave.

[–]3legsbetter0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

i have these trophies in my desk till this day.

I really want to believe this Persaeus. Made my morning.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

believe it. John and Dave are still in my desk.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

I do not understand what is going on in this sub.

Am I going crazy or what?

There is only one brother /u/UEMcGill which got close to correct on this.

ALL YOU DID WAS SAY NO!

There was no counter offer. You didnt say "Let me think on it overnight and get back with you in the am"

He is stonewalling you because he already put your faggot ass up to the job. You lacked both the backbone to ask what you want, and the aggressive attitude to bring it back up a day later?

You wanna know how many times I have given an idiot like you more work with zero more money because I love to leverage idiots for my own gainz?

He informed you of the new role, the money you get. And all you did was whine. Now, all he has to do is ignore you for a while - let you acclimate to your new role and there you go.

Fun fact: Depending on the state, if you accept that new pay, which HR is going to give you automatically - guess what? In court you have accepted the new pay, thus the new responsibilities.

You are so obtuse. Man, I am an evil dude when I think about it...

This all goes back to my post here.

In it I say:

If in your career, you cannot go from fired to hired in 90 days or less - you fucking suck.

There is NO FUCKING WAY I would take a significant job change like this on until comp is agreed to. PERIOD.

I don't fucking care what you told management. You can call, my phone will not be answered.

Where are the flared brothers telling you to take accountability for your actions here? I skimmed over the responses and nearly every one of them was making the boss out to be a dick, dummy or whatever.

WHO FUCKING CARES about the boss.

YOU are the weak faggot he did this to. And he did it because you are weak.

By not objecting officially to the job, accepting the pay increase you have defacto agreed to the new responsibilities. This shit happens ALL THE TIME.

The boss played you like a fiddle.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Boss... Is that you! I get your point, I didn't handle it well. I want to learn and do better next time.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Well, w/o knowing how much money you make $1000 could be a little or a lot.

HERE IS THE MAIN POINT

I have done this 90% of the time. Most people get yearly increases of 1.5-3% unless they say something.

I have, in the past at Big 4 purposefully given associates new positions like this 7 months into the year. Why is that?

I am resetting your "effective hire date"

I now can pay you the same amount for an additional 15 months.

So instead of 2 pay raises in 2 years, assuming you stay with me for a year, you get one pay raise at your 2 year mark.

I learn alot of bad things working at Big-4. I am not proud of it, which is why I do not work in public accounting anymore.

Moral of the story is, NEVER accept a material job change w/o appropriate comp, and a clear understanding of what that does to your "effective hire" date.

It is also the reason why if you want me to pay you $80K, I will offer you $70K with a $10K bonus.

You are going to think - FUCK yeah, 10K up front mother fucker.

I am laughing cause over the course of your employment, I have drastically lowered your cost to me, and greatly increased my margins.

[–]RPeed0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck THIS is the shit that matters.

This is what I mean when is say that companies move with a laser like focus on the financial incentives of management or that there are often unknown-Unknown’s in their motivation.

But I am an operating partner. Not an accountant.

You should do an full and exhaustive post on the detail of this from an accountant’s view.

Most guys here describing their employment are like the blind men grabbing parts of an elephant and arguing about what the whole thing is. I include myself in that. The world has changed post financial crisis and only the accountants caught up with it.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Probably needs to be added to the Career 60 DoD post when that comes up.

[–]onionknightofknee1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

your post is bullshit

He didn't say no, he hinted that 1k was too little to do that. the boss said "all i can offer", which is more bs.

boss didn't play him like a fiddle, boss is just a bad boss. sounds like he overpromised to get an employment to make a ridiculous task (that is illegal in many states).

OP did right to say no, the fact he's even asking here is showing he's too much of nice guy.

look for a better job

[–]friendandadvisor-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

He informed you of the new role, the money you get. And all you did was whine.

He didn't whine. He refused.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Stop obsessing like a beta over your wife's boss's emotions. Of course he's upset and resentful toward you right now; you failed to honor his covert contract that you would always be his "get out of jail free" card, so now he has to scramble to find an alternate solution.

You must expect him to count on you less in the future, to attempt to groom a potential replacement, to give you poor(er) performance reviews, and to be frostier with you. But it is unlikely that he will fire you anytime soon. After all, your wife hasn't put in any overtime whatsoever for you in over four years, and you haven't fired her yet, because you have no obvious replacement.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Where the fuck have you been, you cant just come in late notice with a throat punch! (shakes head). Yeah working on getting more options, CV out, one option available.

yeah i am obsessing, i cant stop my stupid hamster.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy

Just a heads up, 50 cents an hour is not worth it.

Move on, looking fior more cash.

The boss is an incompetent fuck. Work for money. Not bullshit

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

True, Thanks screechhater

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

The boss is an incompetent fuck.

The boss is a master at malipulation. He played OP like a fiddle.

He TOLD OP what he was going to do and what he was going to pay him to do it.

OP had no abundance AND no balls.

OP said No.

Boss doesnt give a fuck. He already TOLD OP what he is doing.

By not officially countering and/or standing his ground he looses by defacto to the boss.

Boss did exactly what he should of done, and what I have done to others.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Not all persons have your accuum at the their disposal, nor do you actualize OP’s new found balls to not only dealing with his misfortune in his sex life (hence he is here) and it’s reverberate pandemic fast witted acuasence of protecting his boundaries.

Obviously the boss seams to be towing the company line, but your failure to see the boss is perhaps protecting his budgeted bonus, at the peril of relieving his employer of a very capable employee (as the OP) relates.

Big picture stated, OP learn to set boundaries become an expert in your field, as I am and move on. The supervisor is short sided fuck

I see no value in allowing a supervisor to fuck me or a company out of talent.

As an employer, not only would I fire fir this I would press charges in “fraud- under unauthorized employer directive”

[–]rocknrollchuck0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Do you see anything he can do going forward, or is it too late and he's just stuck, considering he probably has no other solid job offers at the moment? What's the best move here?

[–]screechhaterRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Read my remarks above

All of you need to look to expertise in your fields. It’s the only protection

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Without knowing the exact timeframe I cant say.

OP should have approached his boss no later than 48 hours later with what he wanted in terms of comp.

If this story is a month old there isn’t anything he can do at this point.

[–]friendandadvisor-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

By not... standing his ground he looses by defacto to the boss.

I would call 'refusing the shit assignment' standing his ground.

[–]KoolAidMan79800 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

1k is definitely not enough for 24/7 365. However having your income go to zero isnt good either. This is a tough spot to be in. I think you need to take action here by either folding your hand and taking the bosses offer or reraise your boss (Ive been playing a lot of poker lately) and escalate to hr or his boss. Taking your bosses offer buys you more time to keep hunting. On the other hand hr might be a roll of the dice and you could come out ahead with you keeping your job with no on call or possibly getting your boss’ job. Sitting pat while he slowly replaces you is a pussy move. You need to act one way or the other.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah I agree finding another job is key. I do get the sense I am being slowly replaced. Onwards and upwards

[–]marv86kw1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

So you OKed Bobs off day without vacation days? Or just let it slide? Does your boss own the company?

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

No he dosent own the company

[–]marv86kw1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Why are you letting him give your underlying staff off time? You let Bob off the hook cuz your boss wants to play golf with him?

I'm not sure why you're posting here on askmrp. It's my first time commenting here. Are you treating your boss like your wife and trying to use rp at work? If so, this is the equivalent of your wife's friend asking you if it's cool for wife to sleep over, oh and its ok cuz she said so.

If you're so competent and everyone else is an idiot, why does your boss treat you like you ain't worth shit? In rp terms, he knows you don't have the balls or confidence to have an alternative.

Grow some balls bro. He doesn't respect you. Getting back talk and no's, trying to assert your weak ass just comes off as being bitchy. You used to take it up the ass and say thank you, now you don't like what daddy is dishing out to you?

[–]friendandadvisor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If a sub is going to be with a superior, OP is doing the correct thing. Is there any payment involved, or is it without pay.

If pay is involved, take it to HR. They can clear up who will be paying for it. IYKWIM.

[–]FereallyRedHard Core Red1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

He's either bluffing and playing a game knowing things he does with Ben will get back to you and is using your own hamster to turn the thmbscrews, (which is pretty brilliant, actually) or,

He is actually grooming Ben for your job.

Either way, no reasonable boss would require 24/7 from one person for 15 cents an hour. (8760 hrs in a year, minus 2000 hrs at work, 6760 hrs on call for $1000.00) To be on call. Fuck that.

He was used to steamrolling you and pissed that you grew a backbone, probably lost face to his supervisor when he had to backpedal since you said no.

But again, none of this is officially actionable.

I like your boss.

You should probably continue with the exit strategy, though.

Boiled down, you were told to do something you weren't willing to do at work. Doesn't matter whose right or wrong at the end of the day.

[–]Kpwn882 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

He's either bluffing and playing a game knowing things he does with Ben will get back to you and is using your own hamster to turn the thmbscrews, (which is pretty brilliant, actually) or,

He is actually grooming Ben for your job.

Probably both.

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

He's either bluffing and playing a game knowing things he does with Ben will get back to you and is using your own hamster to turn the thmbscrews, (which is pretty brilliant, actually) or,

He is actually grooming Ben for your job.

Thank you. I'm a little late to the party here but glad to see someone is seeing this for what it is. Figures it's you.

/u/FoxShitNasty83: time to go. This guy does not have your best interest at heart. See McGill's post on firing the customer.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks Sir, I'm sorting a job change on my map. Onwards and upwards.

[–]FixYourselfFirst1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Typical on-call rate is $2-$3 hour. The boss is asking you to be on-call 6,680 hours a year. At $2.50, that is $16,700. Your boss is asking you to be on-call for 15 cents per hour.

in order to get a job even close im looking at a 4 hour a day commute

Move to where the jobs are.

[–]Red-Curious1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

So, you have a scarcity mentality with your career because you haven't been developing abundance. If you're over-paid for what you do and can't find another similar job in your area that will pay the same, it could be that you're not getting paid $1k extra for being on call, but that you've already been paid, for example, $10k extra for nothing and the boss has wised up and decided to put you on call to justify the fact that you're over-compensated for similar jobs in the same area.

Does it suck? Absolutely. But business is business. Either jobs are scarce and you have to take what you can get or you hit the pavement and convince some other chump that you're worth more than what they're offering new employees.


Now, if it were me, I'd do three things in the following order of priority (and they're not mutually exclusive):

  1. Start looking for another job.

  2. Build relationships with other co-workers to make them loyal to you. I've seen law firms go through this where employee loyalty ultimately trumps whatever the boss wants to do. The risk of losing all of the valuable employees will box in decision-making from the top or, in the case of what happened to my previous boss, the valuable employees will just leave and take all the business with them and the boss will be crippled and have to start something new from the ground up.

  3. Accept the burden of being on call all the time for the $1k raise on the condition that if you end up working extra hours due to the calls you get, you can either:

  • get paid a fixed hourly rate for any instances where you actually work off-hours due to being called. He doesn't risk paying you a bunch of extra money for minimal work and you don't risk doing a bunch of extra work for minimal compensation - you will be paid based on the work you do.

  • If he won't pay you extra, have any off-hour work you do when called converted into PTO that you can take at your discretion.

  • If he won't take that, then suggest that if you're called after-hours, you take those hours out of your next business day or out of your Friday afternoon.

In either of the above two options, you're doing the same amount of work, but still getting the $1k bonus for the fact that you might have to shift your hours to inconvenient times.

Long story short, you have options. You just have to exercise them and be willing to up your social game within the workplace and broader workforce. This is why social game is so important.


Lastly, you're not trying to get your boss's dick in your butt (are you?), so don't expect him to respond to red pilled sexual strategy by falling in love with you. This is business, not sex. Some of the strategies are useful, but the results are very, very different and can be inconsistent. Don't assume that being an alpha high-value man will always equate to your boss backing down and doing what you say.

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

When InSay No I Feel Guilty.

Too often, rookies like you confuse answering with your intention and getting agreement from the other party that your answer is acceptable.

“I don’t care that you want me to be on call 24/7 and $10K raise wouldn’t be enough money.”

“ That sounds like your problem that you fabricated a story for your boss about me agreeing to be on call 24/7”

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Edit to self, actionable points:

  • Find a new job / have a plan B
  • Become invaluable at work
  • Fix the work on call problem go to Boss's Boss with a solution
  • Chill out - hamster spinning LIFT
  • Get better at negotiating - "Never Split the Difference" By Chris Voss. / Robert Fisher's "getting to yes"

[–]redwall920 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Get a job a night job at What-A-Burger or drive for Uber in the evenings before you take the on-call position for $1k/YEAR. Your time is more valuable than that, man.

[–]TurdDoctor0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Fox- few thoughts as someone who had a shitty boss but I've been my own boss for 5 years now. 1.) You didn't give enough context. How much time would you realistically add with this new responsibility? Do you handle by phone, remote computer login, or in person? Are you on salary or wages? Make a calculation of what you think the additional time would be, add 50% premium because it's off hours (kind of like overtime), multiply by your approximate current pay per hour (if paid wages divide pay by hours worked), and now you have a real estimated amount to demand for this new responsibility. Alternatively, you could say that you will add up the actual hours worked and multiply by this calculated hourly rate. Have a talk to your boss and propose this method of compensation instead of an arbitrary 1K, and get paid what you are worth, not more or less. If he says no or tries to counter with something else, just say you are not interested in his offer (broken record, do not DEER). 2.) turning down additional responsibility/pay could be an indication to the boss that you are not ambitious/hardworking. Discussing what you want like described above shows that you are willing to work harder for increased reward. Employers don't like it when employees that don't want to work hard/er. 3.) the other guy he took golfing is likely intended to fuck with you and to see if this guy will do the 24/7 gig for 1K. The company (your bosses boss) needs someone to do this and you boss doesn't want to do it himself, which he will have to if he can't find somebody else. 4.) which sucks more, being on call 24/7, or 2 hour commute each way- you decide. Keep looking in the mean time. Follow other people's advice. Good luck.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks, I did come up with a value that I would be happy with but the 1k felt like just a token jesture and was not up for negotiation. If the other guy wants to do it that's fine by me. Thinking about it, I have stopped learning and progressing in my job it's time to move on and find something else. I'm happy to hold out for the right opportunity in the meantime adopt a dngaf on the powerplays and stfu about the job search.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hey Fox, here are my thoughts and suggestions for consideration...

I am however priced out of the market
in order to get a job even close im looking at a 4 hour a day commute.

We call these the "golden handcuffs". This is an employer mind fuck tool to keep valuable employees under their control/influence and can be very effective. Another is the one that /u/Embracing_Chaos stated below regarding the "Principle rule of all relationships" where if management knows you need them more than they need you then you effectively are handcuffed. You appear to have both sets of handcuffs in place. Question is, what are you going to do about it?

You should be looking to identify and create options. Break free of the cuffs and do not allow yourself to become a slave to your job. Are there other opportunities within your company? Do you have (or can you build) a network that will extend outside or above your boss? How would you assess your boss's competence and his strength within the company/position? Do you believe he can be displaced?

I could go on but the point is look around you and see what you have to work with and what you can do to build options and value. The real issue here is that you are running around with handcuffs on and management knows it.

Also consider Law 22: Use the surrender tactic: Transform Weakness into Power to buy you some time. Consider negotiating the terms as well. "I've given this some more thoughts and willing to take on this challenge (and salary increase). I will ensure we have competent 24/7 coverage with my team and will be responsible for making it happen." Then utilize the team the way you see fit to get this done to buy the time you need to increase your value and break free of the cuffs.

[–]friendandadvisor-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

You should be looking to identify and create options. Break free of the cuffs and do not allow yourself to become a slave to your job. Are there other opportunities within your company?

This doesn't sound like a reasonable strategy. HR may not let employee go to department C unless B can be covered at his absence. Further, if OP goes to different department, and has a less talented replacement, OPs new boss may be called by Fuckface boss and say "Say, X, we're having a bit of a jam...can you spare OP for a bit just to get us over this hump? Just an hour or two." Giving old boss a greater advantage than if he took the original butt fucking.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You know what, I like a lot of other answers on here better than mine. I'm softening on talking to a lawyer unless things go sour and he does something actionable. You really have shit legs to stand on at the moment. Also labor laws depend on your state. I live in a right to work state which translates into you can quit or be fired for any reason that doesn't break an equal opportunity (or any other law).

Utilizing the group think here I'd say

  • You definitely painted yourself into a corner. You need to smooth this out in order to buy time to find something else. Feign defeat... your victory will be later when you leave or switch positions.

  • If you find yourself in a position where you need to tell your direct supervisor NO and in a gray area such as this... you have to start the timer ticking to have something new lined up and punt. Things will only get worse from there.

When you get to the point where you have other opportunities there would be no harm before leaving in taking direct action and at least getting on record why you are leaving and possibly the ways they could keep you (expect 99% of the time unless your boss pissed off his superiors or showed incompetence this wont matter at all to them).

Also in the mean time I'd find out what his superiors do for fun (golf or whatever) and get into that activity go old school book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" approach to get in with them.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah there is no point persuing this until I operate from a place of power and have something else lined up. I'll refresh my CV and send out again. I should always have a plan B. I don't have any fall back options so I need to focus on fixing this first. The director is stuck away in his office no-one talks to him makes sense to grab a coffee and talk shop and vision

[–]helaughsinhidden0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Lots of good advice here.

Let's focus just on your assumed mistakes so far.

  1. Not assuming you and Ben are on the same team. You guys work together, get water from the same well, and when either of you steps in shit it splatters on the other guys pants. His problems ARE your problems, but you didn't really reflect any ownership here. Perhaps that's why his boss doesn't talk to you.
  2. Broken record while negotiating. First, everything in life is negotiating. When he came with his initial offer of $1k per year to be on call 24/7/365 you simply said "it's not really worth it for me so No". Well, good for you, being on call for $0.11 her hour is an offensive offer. He said "that's all I can offer" and you accepted his reply as gospel truth. All that said was he wasn't willing to make the counter offer. Oh, and he shouldn't, if he says to you, well... how about $2500, a normal person would see that as weakness and say I think $1k is a good number, but we have to do it every month. Your failure to counter with either a more favorable financial compensation or a actionable plan was a huge blunder and honestly, he probably lost some faith in you because of it.
  3. The lack of another workable option. You said "I'm happy to discuss a bigger roster ..... and we can make it work". You didn't take ownership of this. If this wasn't a petty way to avoid the issue and you were serious a slight shift in words could have inspired confidence in you and your plan. Something like "Ben, we both know it's too much to ask. You can't simply print an extra $500 per month, so here's what we do. I will make a bigger roster, float this around to a few people for feedback to make sure they will do it, and let's meet at the same time on Thursday. To throw you a bone, I'll take the $1000 and I will be available to whoever is on call as a level 2 support option only if they are stumped."
  4. Inaction when Bob approached you about leaving. You know Ben was trying to rile you up. Why not walk into his office smiling and laughing and say "Cute Ben, I got to admit I didn't see that coming. First, let me apologize for being such a hard ass, normally I am pretty agreeable." .......resume negotiations, use amused master!!
  5. Inaction when Bob approached you about time off. Seriously? Your boss is mega passive aggressive. He doesn't want Bob, he wants you to come to him and give him what he wants. To a great negotiator, it's a game and he is using Bob as a pawn. I'd have told Bob, " *Sigh* No, because I will be golfing with Ben, he's pissed at me and I will take care of it.". Bob clearly does NOT want this promotion, so for his sake at least go talk to Ben.
  6. This attitude: "boss being a cunt just get another job ". Forget that, you need to get a pair. Even if you do end up moving along, start to stand up for yourself right now. If you actually are going to get another job, what do you have to lose? Why not have fun with the negotiation? Engage this Ben hands on and see how much you can actually get out of him. Or even better, take your plan to HIS BOSS and highlight Ben's failure to come up with a plan that is sustainable. Anyone asked to do that work for that pay will quickly hate the company and quit leaving it in worse shape. Make a play for his job, be a badass, be dangerous, show him you aren't the guy to be messed with.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

We need to do this 24/7 for the whole department. Taking the lead designing a roster for all the teams that works for everyone is a great idea and fuck it I'll just take it to his boss.

[–]helaughsinhidden1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Give us an update later!

[–]friendandadvisor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Something like "Ben, we both know it's too much to ask. You can't simply print an extra $500 per month, so here's what we do. I will make a bigger roster, float this around to a few people for feedback to make sure they will do it, and let's meet at the same time on Thursday. To throw you a bone, I'll take the $1000 and I will be available to whoever is on call as a level 2 support option only if they are stumped."

Yeah, this would have done it! Or, "Say, Champ, I'm a team player, but, the numbers just don't crunch! Let's get a bean counter in here to do the stats, and come up with a win-win solution!"

::rolleyes::

[–]Maximus_Valerius0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Do you and your boss know how much time will be involved in this on-call assignment?

If not, consider offering to do the job for a trial period (one month?) so you both can get a sense for the time commitment and amount of additional compensation that would be fair. Or whether additional resources would be needed to provide the appropriate level of services.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

What is the likelihood that you would actually get called in the middle of the night? When I was in tech, we were all basically on call 24/7, but I'd get a call maybe twice or three times a year. When you make a certain salary, especially in tech, it's not a 9 to 5 job. No one thought it was such a big deal, if there was a problem, we would solve it.

You say you are getting overpaid for your work and your area. Why are you picking this hill to die on? 4 hour day commutes suck, you need to factor that into your pay, and realize that getting paid more elsewhere has to also pay for your commute, which it probably won't.

You aren't a problem solver. You could have proposed something like, I'll start it out, and get someone else trained up to share the load, etc. Instead you went full confrontation, when you don't have a good plan B.

It sounds to me like you are going rambo on your boss. On his side, it sounds like he's being a pissy little girl. You two deserve each other.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I hear you Steele, the expectation is 1 to 2 calls a weekend and will get more especially doing go live(s). The expectation is I will need to be able to remote in and triage the issue within 20 minutes of getting a call.

I agree I don't have a plan B and getting that is my plan A.

I mentioned about getting Bob trained up but there was a complete reluctance and he wouldn't even entertain it. He can do it no problem and I can share or back him up.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

I mentioned about getting Bob trained up but there was a complete reluctance and he wouldn't even entertain it. He can do it no problem and I can share or back him up.

Well something doesn't add up here, because now Bob is being considered as your replacement.

I will need to be able to remote in and triage the issue within 20 minutes of getting a call.

That doesn't sound reasonable. It's not like you can (or should) immediately patch the problem and push to production anyway. So you are looking at a QA cycle for a patch anyway, which is much longer than 20 minutes. Don't you guys have maintenance windows, etc?

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Bob's not keen to be on call, he's very social. We work on back end systems, we have QA etc but server outages need to be kept to a minimum. We built it right it should automatically failover etc. Tech is fairly new lots of teething issues it's up all the time zero downtime zero data loss.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

LOL, sounds like you two need to form an informal union.

[–]FoxShitNasty83[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

yeah not sure how to play this, hes a good guy a hard worker and reliable. I need him to stay on side but obviously I need to remain OI if my boss wants to take him to play golf or whatever.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Power dynamics IMO are about options.

RP praxology states it’s important to have them for obvious reasons. Wives, and bosses, are often quite adept at reading the options you have.

Girls that show interest in you all the time by eying you? Those places of business you hit that overtly or implicitly offer you a position? Wives and bosses have these options subcomminicated to them, usually quite by accident or by frame.

Your post states explicitly you do not have options and that you are working on it. Your boss read this and is playing his cards accordingly. If I were your boss I’d do the same, especially if I were paying you handsomely already and knew your options were limited.

Now go get some real options and find a way to not give a fuck, cause until then mother fucker, I’m going to keep payin you what you are being paid now whilst strong arming you into taking a deal that’s best for me.

Read the gervais principal if you don’t understand. It helped make me the way I am.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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