Girlfriend is not happy with our one sided open relationship

monsieurhire2 · 2019-03-21T22:12:11+00:00

Ha.

So, the NSA thing that she proposed was actually a covert contract in which she expected to win you over by treating you like a king. It sounds like it is partially working, because you went for the sex, and devoted some of your time to her. Also, it sounds like you both are in scarcity situations: you are in SJW hell-hole, and she is in a po-dunk town. If you both moved to Sex & the City Land, like a NYC, would things be different? For you, assuming your are successful, would have your pick of women. She, would appear to have her pick of men, but would be in danger of getting strung along, used, pumped and dumped, etc.

It's only natural for two people who are having sex to become emotionally involved. You can try to put up boundaries with words, but if there is chemistry, and if the person is admirable, and does a lot of nice things for you, the actions speak louder than the words.

It sounds to me like she is sold on you, and while you enjoy her company, you aren't sold on her. You basically dumped her because you thought you could do better, which then inflamed her desire for you, and caused her to go on a self-improvement kick. Some women would wallow, get depressed, get tattoos, go get gang-banged by a motorcycle club, blame you, start doing drugs, start cutting, etc. This one rose to the challenge, got hotter, and does a bunch of stuff for you. Still, you cling to plates you aren't even interested in just for the abundance.

I mean, you could be honest with her, dump her for good, and move to a better city. Or you could keep her as an LTR. Who knows what would happen if she stuck around. Hell, it might even work. There are other ways of maintaining abundance aside from side chicks. You don't actually have to fuck chicks you aren't into just for the abundance to maintain dread. It's not that I'm saying be monogamous to her, but if you don't even like these side chicks, what's the point? You could be self-improving in some way and finding a circle with better women in it. Personally, I don't 100% buy this SJW desert. There are always quality women in any major city, it's just that you may not have entered into the right circles. Maybe I'm wrong on that count. I did just go to a bunch of major cities, and I saw pretty women in all of them, even in the poorer ones. All made claims to having "the prettiest" women, but it was all BS, at least to me. Anyway, with regard to side chicks, girls like to share alpha, so if she has character, you could keep her as the primary, assure her that her spot is relatively secure, and then get her into some threesome action so you can have your cake and eat it too, hopefully with better women than with what you've been getting.

It also depends on what you want. Do you want to settle down and start a family? Do you never want to do that? Do you just want to have a harem indefinitely? I personally think that occasionally there ARE opportunities to pair bond with a worthy woman, and that two people, working together can accomplish more than one. I have seen it happen and work, but it is not the majority of situations, which are some kind of compromise.

Also, did this girl have any fuck buddies of her own? If she did, I would imagine that they didn't cut the mustard, and she is now an alpha widow. But also, she's into you. I mean, she could easily look harder, go online, etc. There are millionaires who would happily fly her out to their area and wife her up.

I would definitely introspect hard on this. Also, you should probably do a little digging on what is actually going on with her versus what she says is going on.

Anyway, if she got hotter after the dumping, it sounds like she has a good attitude, and that is a rarity. She wasn't bitter.

I'm sure people will call me a bluepill cuck for saying all this, btw, but whatever. I'm kind of a minority opinion on here. From what I see, character, or anything resembling character is increasingly rare, especially in attractive women.

cbang65 · 2019-03-21T20:55:48+00:00

Upvote, im interested to see how this thread develops.

ewoods4171 · 2019-03-22T02:50:35+00:00

I’m gonna go against the grain. Do you know how hard it is to find a chick like that in our society? Be a man and fucking commit. At least for a little while to see if it works. If it doesn’t drop her and continue, no harm no foul. Regardless, maintain frame and keep up red pill ideals.

FixYourselfFirst · 2019-03-21T21:16:38+00:00

we see each other about one week a month

You know exclusive LDRs don't work. IMO, hold steady with the side plates until she moves to you in December. Then revaluate.

effyouasshole · 2019-03-21T21:17:45+00:00

I'm kind of on the fence between breaking up with her

You don't break up with her over this. Its on her to decide if she wants to continue riding your success train, or to get off of it. Your outcome independence causes you to accept either.

For the sake of discussion, we are discussing whether or not I should drop my side chicks and focus on other things with the free time

Strangers on the internet cannot tell you what you want.

guhajin · 2019-03-22T00:16:41+00:00

Probably gonna get downvoted to hell, but I gotta say... Posts like this are why some people think this sub is ridiculous.

Dude, you have a fantastic girl. You say so yourself. Commitment isn't capitulation if she's what you actually want. Some of the advice here is awful. If a girl is a bitch, being nice to her makes no sense, yes. But if a girl is being nice, being loyal, all that? Being nice back is a good damn healthy idea. Also there is a lot more to a potential LTR than just frame.

You need to consider the downside here. Just because she SAYS she's fine with it and keeps coming to see you, doesn't mean she's actually fine with it. I'm kind of surprised nobody else here is saying this. "I'm fine," being bullshit is pretty much girl 101. She's not fine. This situation is not sustainable. In fact the relationship may have already began to turn the corner into something you don't want.

I mean, you don't think any resentments are building right now? Doesnt matter how alpha you are, girls have pride too. You think there won't be any consequences down the line to treating her like this now? Being hard to pin down plays to girl fantasies, sure. Months and months of that though while she is consistently doing everything right? Well, that begins to break the fantasy and just make it look like you don't care and maybe never will.

If you like her, just talk to her like an adult about how you feel, potential conflicts, etc. This is the ultimate shit test men can do with women they are considering an LTR with - if any difficult or uncomfortable conversation is something a girl can't handle like a grown up and the constant tension of the drama and the chase is the only thing she really cares about, she will be an awful LTR anyway.

oooKenshiooo · 2019-03-21T21:25:51+00:00

Explain to her that fucking is a non negotiable physical need for you. Offer her exclusivity once she moves to your city. Until then, uphold the status quo.

If she is genuinely interested in you, she will take that deal. If she is just testing or playing power games, be prepared for more shit tests.

okuli · 2019-03-21T22:43:54+00:00

this is one of the most angry feminist SJW cities in America

sounds like Seattle?

itiswr1tten · 2019-03-21T21:06:03+00:00

Here are your options. This is a common "dilemma" posted here.

Commit to her exclusively. This is giving up your sexual strategy and not recommended
Refuse her request and prepare for the possible end of the relationship
Agree to her request but cheat on her

3 maximizes your sexual strategy but may be distasteful to you. It is not to me, because we're staying amoral.

2 is somewhat high risk, but sufficient dread will keep her coming back. You are hamstering about the phone thing - she sanitized it of any other dudes before she offered it to you (can't conclusively say there are other dudes. Use your gut).

1 is capitulation.

Which is your intention?

CheesyStravinsky · 2019-03-21T22:11:45+00:00

Do you literally need sex to function, or not?

I don't see any issues with being open really, but at the same time, great sex once a week is vastly preferable to shitty/mediocre sex 7 times a week imo.

People focus a little too much on quantity of sex in this sub in general. A LOT of women suck at sex...

For me, I can live without sex daily, don't need it to survive. If you need it to perform at work, then you should just explain that to the girl, though. If you don't...eh, it's worth thinking about.

However, what are the downsides of just being in an open relationship?

Hoarder-of-Knowledge · 2019-03-22T01:05:33+00:00

I might be able to provide an interesting perspective here, as I (22F, active on redpillwomen) have been on the other side of the coin here.

my partner and I were in a LDR for his studies and due to him being in a high stress environment we opened up his side of the relationship so he could spin a plate or two if I couldn't be there to look after his needs.

given the fact that the LDR you doing has a clear expiration date coming up, I wouldn't go exclusive with her up until this point, because as you specified you are holding all the cards here. in fact I would advice to see if you can get away with not changing anything.

a possible way for you to spin this narrative is to hold out the promise of exclusivity in December when she's done with her studies and use the mean time to "transition" from open on your side to closing the relationship. You can reduce the number of plates, but I wouldn't cut them out completely, because you need to look after your needs and assuming her onetitis is strong enough she'll want you to look after your needs even those are contradictory to hers.

however do try to strike a compromise by meeting some of her LDR needs. this probably requires some research on your side, as you need to know what her exact problem is with the current system. (what) is she jealous (of)? is she paranoid that she's replaceable? does her self esteem take a blow because she cannot do anything for your sexual needs while she's away? what is her issue exactly? and what can you do to remedy it to make her life suck less? often just an occasional phone call providing sweet talk of validation might get you the desired effect.

(for example, if it bothers her that she's sexually uninvolved long distance you can both invest money in a remote control vibrator that you can control during the LDR and do some sort of mutual masturbation thing where you still control her pleasure).

[deleted] · 2019-03-21T21:57:44+00:00

As a high value male you should lock her down to mother your children. Basically she is entertained and satisfied with the ride she's on right now, but once you kick her off she will hit up the cock carousel and thats the end of it. if she is everything you're saying, I would maintain a strong frame, create an arrangement for her to have your kids, and not get married (or do with a strong prenup). curious to see how you fuck this up

NPC72521 · 2019-03-21T23:39:56+00:00

Your dick doesn’t own you. Getting laid is not the same necessity as eating food. ffs.

You’re in your 30s?

Dump her, keep her, whatever. Just don’t give away your self control.

linkschode · 2019-03-22T10:50:33+00:00

Hey man. Dump her and PM me her number.

Do you know how many times I’ve seen my my 30 y/o friends (myself included) find a girl like yours, and then dump their ass because they weren’t man enough to realise they had found a golden plate?

The sad thing is, until you’ve lost a golden plate, you’re not actually able to perceive their value. You’ll probably fuck this one around, fuck it up some how, she’ll be gone and find another older guy who is more emotionally mature and competent than you, and that’ll be it. Nothing compares to a golden plate.

Then you’ll spend years frantically looking for another golden plate, because you miss being treated like a King by your Queen.

This girl will not stick around forever. You may think to her you’re literally the most attractive guy on the planet. You’re not, and once the loneliness sets in, a better looking guy with higher value will approach her, will fuck her, will be prepared to give her all the things you want and you’ll be gone mate.

thrwy75479 · 2019-03-21T22:19:13+00:00

You've done the fucking around. It's not like if you keep fucking around, you're going to reach nirvana. It is what it is.

The only thing this boils down to is wanting kids.

If you want kids, you're exactly at the right ages, and at the right stages of life, with the right circumstances to do so. So, go for it if you do.

For reasons other than banging more girls, if you don't want kids, I'd say leave things up in the air, tell her if she wants to go, she can go.

XT3M3 · 2019-03-21T22:27:04+00:00

dealing with this now. its on HER to either fuck around or drop u. why are you changing?

its like one of my friends said to me, " this girl is in a relationship by her damn self , you are doing you , leave it be"

worse comes to worse, you will have to dump her . sometimes you need to be the one to "free" these girls from their own oneitis for their own good

throwawaypizza1 · 2019-03-22T00:36:41+00:00

I mean - I would go exclusive. She sounds worth it and the other girls don't sound like they are really meeting your needs. A week a month isn't bad. You could visit her sometimes too. I'd just tell her you could make it work much better if she moved to your city.

mrrooftops · 2019-03-22T01:40:15+00:00

Boy, she loves the chase doesn't she... like it's a form of self harm. Obsessed? I wonder how she could change once you agree to her suggestion? She has given you so much rope to hang yourself with, the only way you could maintain this level of chase while being in a fully present LTR with her is to somehow be as 'distant' as you were in your open distant relationship. But she'll have cashed her crush in so the shit and comfort tests will be monumental eventually.

Either that or you have been utterly fooled by her making you believe this is all for you.

Good luck bud, all will unfold before you (and us hopefully if you have the balls to update openly in the future) She'll wise up and grow out of this sadly.

CruxKimura · 2019-03-22T07:11:30+00:00

Finding someone you like and Who you could see youself rising Kids with is hard. If you thing she might be that one. Then go for it. Trp is for us to grow as men. Not for us to hate womans(though alot of People here do). Trp is also for us to better understand woman so that when you find the one you like, You kan better keep the spark alive in the relationship by being the best you possible.

_Anarchon_ · 2019-03-21T21:56:32+00:00

Sounds like she realizes she doesn't have any good options back home, and is putting all her eggs in your basket. She's got a long term strategy for marriage with you to get out of that shitty town. That girl you broke up with is the girl she'll turn back into after she gets her hooks into you. I give her credit for all that effort though...that's a long game she's runnin.

l2oland · 2019-03-21T21:42:42+00:00

I don't see a reason to budge on your one sided open relationship. You're a man so date on your own terms, not on hers.

Like others have said here, you could offer exclusivity once she's close (fuck long distance). I don't really see the benefit to you though. Exclusivity fucks with your sexual strategy. I'd personally just keep spinning plates while she's in your city.

hazelstein · 2019-03-22T00:39:56+00:00

she graduates in December and is planning to move to wherever I am

Unicorn shit but people need a backup plan when they are moving to different city for "their own"purposes. Probably she might use you for once settling down, stabling herself in the new city in which you live in ( in you go exclusive).
I'd say go do ask most of TOP SHELF ALPHA BOISES say here, to keep her as plate.
Validate too much, she will lose interest.

danakdakdnakdn · 2019-03-22T02:07:22+00:00

Wow this is crazy I was in an almost exact situation - Girl younger than me, long distance, one-sided open relationship so I could fuck because I also view it as physical need, and it eventually started bothering her. I can't really give advice because I'm a good bit younger so and therefore less worried about an eventual marriage. Things ended and it hurt because I cared about her, but I'm not sure if your relationship is worth saving. The way girls work, if this is bothering her now, it will always bother her and will likely lead to shit that isn't worth dealing with in the future.

LordMarkStark · 2019-03-22T04:46:42+00:00

Choice is yours, plenty of perspectives given. No situation is ever going to be perfect.

Don't start thinking she's an idiot for all that. She's probably on the look out herself or if it comes by her, she's not averse to the gym and most of what she does is for herself like anyone. As the stakes get higher she'll wise up. She's young too. Don't take her for a fool or someday you'll be hearing you disrespect her and she knew this was going to be like that. She's just conforming to her life options after study and you, it's a bet.

You two can't do anything about that or each other's/this situation. You've made it work, just be ready to have a different relationship after December with her. That's all you can do. It may be worse it may be better but I think you should start thinking about moving the other girls on. Don't decimate them but start making more room for this girl. December is a long way off.

Remember girls could delete Kik messenger from her phone for example or some such. Then put it back on to chat. There's all kinds of hide options too these days. Don't worry about that. I don't think she's sleeping round given her commitment right now. But it could happen.

Remember the closer December gets the more resentment could build. Of course you won't stop your plates completely, but you've told your main prospect about them, that's not sustainable. By December she'll be expecting an open runway or she may not (and even in spite of what she's saying now) ever move there. So give her and you the chance at something different/higher than now. If that does not eventuate or it goes south at least you tried in the best possible way.

December is a long way out. You're probably hopeful. Just don't do anything if you're keen on the idea to dash her hopes in the coming months. And things could change from now.

Early 30s probably a good time and she's early 20s, not as experienced. Sounds like a decent dynamic set up. You don't hold all the cards, you still need her active participation. But you said you're on the fence about it. And her resentment will build the closer to December it gets. You're over confident or apathetic. If you go for this just be mindful the closer it gets and her invested time. You have to match it as much as possible. She's young and dumber, it could be this is her life lesson.

Because you don't truly care about her. Craps easy when she's not really asked to do much. She won't invest emotionally as you will, then if it breaks up she'll drop that emotional investment like a lead balloon. She's shown she does not really care either. She's tolerating it. That's what she's doing now moving there, by December it's a long way off, must be making you apprehensive.

No one can give exactly what will happen. Just work out if you want her for a more proper girlfriend in the coming months, drop talking about other girls and indirectly mitigate them, butter her up a fraction, and the rest will probably go as best it can. However anything you do to this situation because it's decently and finely balanced will irrevocably change it. If you're not going to be there for her come December or don't want to, and she does move, it will go south fast.

I don't know, you can't always have your cake and eat it. There's certain expectations. You've still got to work out if you like her that much to spend even more time with her. If you do, start getting a little excited over time for her impending arrival.

I don't understand people's dislike for a steady girl when it comes by. You could go another 5 years before the next very decent one comes along, given you're 30ish and busy. Even if it only lasts 6 months after December. It's a decent lifestyle option for you. Just remember she has her own agenda/opportunity; and by December you may be sick of your plates or they've disappeared. I'd count on that occurrence rather than ditching this particular girl. Because when less women, even one, do more for you to your satisfaction, across all things, at least while it stays good, that's infinitely better than the hassles of spinning plates to get that. I'm not saying life long partners or some such, for however long it lasts. Just consider the pull of a big city versus a small town.

This is a perfect storm for her. She's going there for you right now as well as other things, and you don't care too much for her. Like I said it's up to you. Not like you have to choose today and she's fairly happy. She'll try to fit in like a good gf will, but you ought to not make it too hard. It's a different dynamic so I'm only focusing on until December.

Lambdal7 · 2019-03-26T18:41:17+00:00

You can also say we start a family, but that you want to fuck a hot girl if one comes along every few years or once a year, but you will include her also if she wants. This is a marriage with a couple of hall passes, but below swingers. This is what most people in my social circle (30s) do these days.

This is still an upgrade for her.

Stupyyy · 2019-03-21T22:42:20+00:00

Dude you are in your prime and having a lavish sex maximized life-style. You are living the dream.

AlfredKinsey · 2019-03-22T00:39:57+00:00

Do not cohabitate if she moves to your city and you are still involved. Please do not cohabitate.

stare_at_the_sun · 2019-03-21T23:33:00+00:00

Reading this kind of stuff makes me so insecure. I am a female... is this how all men think?

Edit: what makes someone “the best” out of hundreds?

[deleted] · 2019-03-21T22:13:12+00:00

Why are you giving her commitment when it's not yours to give? Keep things as-is for now-- if she keeps proving her worth after she graduates and "moves your direction" in December, then let it happen naturally.

If you yield to this request, you're teaching her what lengths she has to go before she doesn't have to do any more and she's going to to know exactly at what point she can start disrespecting you.

failingtheturingtest · 2019-03-21T23:47:15+00:00

I'm not having sex with others to hurt you, I'm having sex with others because I need it to keep this relationship working.

If you want to have sex with others specifically to "show me how it feels", then I don't think we're compatible. If you just wanted to have sex with others and are trying to leverage my feelings for you to do so, then I don't think we're compatible. I'll let you make your choice.

MegladonBass · 2019-03-21T22:05:24+00:00

Smh just tell her your not gonna fuck other girls but still fuck other girls. She’s not gonna know man.

-SirJohnFranklin- · 2019-03-22T06:46:27+00:00

Wait until December and then decide?

ChadTheWaiter100 · 2019-03-22T13:14:26+00:00

I would commit if I was you but that’s just me. I spun enough plates before trp to the point where I don’t care about numbers. Meaning I’m not the type to fuck a 6-7 simply to add another knotch on my belt. I’m the type to bone a 9.5 because she’s hotter than my 9.45 (all hypothetical, but you get the picture). So up to you but that’s my two cents.

StripperWhore · 2019-03-22T13:45:54+00:00

She is going to try whatever she can to trap you into a monogamous relationship. Sounds like she's playing you for a relationship and you just want sex.

You're deluding yourself by thinking you're so great she will hold onto this bargain that completely favors you. She's manipulating you and your own grandiosity(that she's feeding into) is preventing you from seeing it.

The fact she's upping her game to "catch" you vs doing this in the first place is a red flag. Once she "catches" you she's going to stop.

She isn't doing this to please you. Pleasing you would be just sex. She's doing this to secure what she wants and you don't: a monogamous relationship.

goblinboglin · 2019-03-23T06:31:05+00:00

Nah, don't do it.

You got pretty good deal RN.

She has oneitis for you so she will rather share one alpha than fuck exclusive beta.

flapjacksrbetter · 2019-03-26T13:24:17+00:00

Whats the update lmao

bigboxguy · 2019-03-30T06:20:03+00:00

Cool bro. Tell us more about how much you pull.

MattyAnon · 2019-04-12T14:15:35+00:00

but haven't found a single one I'm remotely interested in starting a life with

You are talking yourself into scarcity, this is not a good position to negotiate from.

This other girl seems to have female oneitis for me and had gone into the equivalent of monk mode while I was gone: eating healthier, working out, twice as feminine and cute as before.

This is actually a major red flag. Without you around she suddenly gets fit... but when you were there she doesn't. Can you see what's wrong with this?

After another visit the following month she brings up the possibility of a relationship which I shot down again for distance reasons but I've been curious about open relationships so I suggested that possiblity

You say "open relationship", but..

On her own initiative she suggested a one sided open relationship because "she only wanted my dick". I couldn't see any downside so I went with it and we've been doing this for about 6 months.

Right, so girlfriend with occasional FB's.

girlfriend

Right. Long distance girlfriend. Exactly the thing you said you wouldn't do.

unlock phone

You know how to unlock THAT phone. You've seen THAT phone at THAT point in time.

Not only can you not trust girls to be faithful, you shouldn't have to. You should live your life so that her cheating just doesn't matter to you. You're either in a strong position or you're fucked.... in all things. If you have to trust another person then you've already lost.

Plus I know the dating scene where she is, it sucks.

It sucks for men. Attractive women never have dating problems. Anywhere.

She now wants to go exclusive or if I won't accept that, open so I can understand how this hurts her.

So she's saying she'll fuck other guys if you fuck other women? She's threatening you?

I hope you see the dynamic here. Start with "exclusive to you" then she starts to make demands and threatening to withdraw her exclusivity. Threatening to hurt you as she claims you've hurt her.... pretending that men and women fucking other people is exactly the same (it isn't).

Are you going to be held to ransom like this?

I'm kind of on the fence between breaking up with her, going exclusive, or opening time up.

Relationships have a time. They last a while. Then the sex stops and the demands go up. The relationship goes downhill as do her looks (she'll stop hitting the gym so hard once she has what she wants). They all go this way. Nothing is permanent and exclusivity makes women lazy. You know all this and you know it's 10x worse long distance.

I know I hold all the cards here

Except abundance and options.

my girlfriend

I hope you realise you're talking about her as if she's your girlfriend. How did you let this happen? Why? Why are you letting her get what she wants while you don't get what you want?

mushroom_overlord · 2019-03-21T22:09:46+00:00

"I have needs, when December comes and you can move in we can talk about it more, until then, sorry but feel free to be open on your end as well"

AstuteBlackMan · 2019-03-21T22:47:34+00:00

Just some thoughts man

You say she let's you see her phone once a week...maybe she deletes all evidence of men shes talking to right before she comes over. Did you think of that?

You say you know the dating pool of men there and it sucks (basically saying it wont compare to you which is fine) but she could still be going on dates with other guys and testing the market.

In my opinion it sounds like you want to date her. So just date her then see where it goes. But just know all this cooking for you shit and massaging you will probably die down when you start seeing each other more often.

I think its personally a good thing that you are seeing other women. puts her on her toes and let's it be known that you can easily move on.

But honestly whatever you do just think hard about it.

WiredT · 2019-03-21T23:19:52+00:00

Please tell me you wouldnt be upset if she DID fuck other guys 🤦🏾‍♂️

roughback · 2019-03-22T00:04:43+00:00

it's a trap!

antwonedw · 2019-03-22T01:27:32+00:00

tldr ?

King-Manlet · 2019-03-21T22:27:18+00:00

Here’s a simple solution. Tell her you’re gonna be exclusive and still keep your sides. Everyone’s happy.

tothetopbaby1 · 2019-03-21T21:20:08+00:00

Open up the relationship for her. Simple.

Just tell her that’s it’s cool if she fuck other guys if she does move maybe then become exclusive but definitely don’t drop ya hoes. Drop ya ego.

HurricaneHugues · 2019-03-21T23:35:49+00:00

Whos gonna read all that?

throwitdownman · 2019-03-22T19:23:53+00:00

Is this a language barrier issue? This is a textbook plate relationship. Call it what you want, but if it’s not a monogamous relationship, you two are not bf/gf. A harem while having a one sided relationship is the most beta, naive idea I’ve ever read.

There’s a million cocks between you and your snowflake, who you seem positive is doing everything for you. I’m not buying that she is monogamous.

And if you do not care that she’s fucking other people while you’re also fucking other people, that’s a plate relationship. The ideal, if you didn’t know, is to get a GF by PROMOTING A PLATE. So if you think she is fine, then promote to LTR. It’s common protocol.

All this talk about marriage, her being the best fuck, and her changing for you - sounds like you’re having severe oneitis.

lucasm27 · 2019-04-04T00:47:04+00:00

you sound like a asshole

Title	Girlfriend is not happy with our one sided open relationship
Author	YDdraig
Upvotes	257
Comments	116
Date	21 March 2019 08:50 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	askTRP
Link	https://theredarchive.com/post/222835
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/b3vtwl/girlfriend_is_not_happy_with_our_one_sided_open/