Does Social Media make us more feminine and less Stoic?

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April 15, 2019

I've been thinking about this ever since I created my SM accounts. I've always felt that there is something wrong with the idea that you have to put yourself out there so that other people can "rate" you. One might say: "Highcaterpillar, you are just insecure". Fair enough. But even if we use Social Media(particularly instagram) wisely, we nethertheless start pulling that lever, start seeking validation, our dopamine receptors get fucked in a way. We become less patient, more prone to be emotional, more reactive.

TRP is amoral. We must look at the results we get when we do something. But in this case what cost do we pay! I can DHV all I want, but is it not a delusion? Really? Do I need to resort to affectation? Yes, women SEE my high value online, I understand that it is a game in a way. But if one is so high value why would he want to show off in the first place? Doesn't the desire to be seen as high value mean that one is not actually that way?

Should we, as men, abstain from Social Needia, even though it may bring results, so we do not fall into the trap of becoming feminized? It'd be great to have a discussion on the topic from a point of view of self-improvement. Thank you all!

Post Information
Title Does Social Media make us more feminine and less Stoic?
Author highcaterpillar
Upvotes 92
Comments 46
Date 15 April 2019 05:43 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askTRP
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Red Pill terms found in post:
DHVgamethe red pill

[–]AuberyBitoni91 points92 points  (1 child) | Copy

I was watching this video the other day and someone mentioned how there were no camera's at the concert. Everyone is having so much fun, living their life, enjoying the moment. When I go to an event now all I see is retards taking selfies to show how much 'fun' they're having.

Even when I spend time with my family... my cousins are always on their phone, my grandmother is old and cooks for everyone, truly enjoys us being there, least you can do is show some respect and put your phone away.

This is why I don't have social media anymore. Feels like everyone is living a fake life, not paying attention to the beautiful things happening around them. I truly wish I was born in the 60's.

[–][deleted] 61 points62 points  (0 children) | Copy

Two seperate points here:

  1. Social media is validation for the sake of validation. You can post complete garbage and it becomes "the news". Basically, instead of taking pride in contributing value, you take pride in followers, likes, retweets, pride in creating more noise. The content monster machine must be fed. So yes, abstain.

  2. Being high value does not mean you do not show high value. This is a bit nuanced since high value can established through indirect ways, such as social proof for example, but even to establish that social proof you need to display high value, and learning how to do that right will take you far. No one will know you're high value unless you tell them you are. People don't care about you and won't think to figure it out on their own.

[–]rnsbrum18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy

I look at social media this way (Particularly instagram): its a public photo album. In a photo album, you save moments that you are proud of, so that you can look at it when you are old and remember the good times you had. Instagram may be displaying a fake life, but thats only if you use it that way. You put yourself in your best behaviour out there, so that you can look back at it later. If you want, you can put your account on private and only you will see it.

But as for the average person, yes it does. It makes you run around that endless cycle of dopamine seeking. It exploits the shortcomings of our brains.

DHV is part of human nature, we always did through one form of another, seeking validation is also part of human nature.

What makes people less stoic or more feminine is simply not being aware of such concepts. They adapt and react to their environment

[–]Granite_Pill36 points37 points  (14 children) | Copy

Technocratic liberals have fucked everything up socially. Now, your image is considered your "brand," even as an individual, even as a factory worker or welder or waiter, it doesn't matter, there is an expectation to have an online presence and ability to be reached out to if need be. That expectation is really just a cover for these technocrats to want to be able to investigate you, doxx you, blacklist you. It can be a liability depending on what you're willing to put out there. But if you use social media to successfully promote yourself as your brand, or to promote your business, then that is a productive use of social media because everyone is on it and that's how most people consume mass media nowadays. By all means, use it to make money. That's a pragmatic use of social media. Is Dan Bilzerian feminized by his social media use?

In the Matrix, Neo takes the red pill and is able to unplug from the Matrix. Before, when he was plugged in, he didn't notice it because he was in it, a part of it. When he unplugged he was able to see it and use it as his advantage. First year mass communications/journalism students are taught to notice the immense saturation of mass media in our daily lives with the analogy of "does the fish know it's wet?" Not until the fish is out of water does it notice.

Get off facebook, instagram, or any of the other consuming social media apps and you notice everyone is captivated by it. When I go out I notice everyone is plugged in, they are immersed in that phone. They're taking pictures of everything, scrolling through their feed, doing this/doing that with their phone. Every mundane thing people want to take a picture/video of and share it. They can't stand to not be distracted for a few minutes and have to use any free time to scroll through their feed. It turns your mind to mush. Your social skills under develop, your brain chemistry changes, and you lose self-discipline over time.

The damage social media does to you is it gradually removes your ability to withstand being bored, awkward, or uncomfortable in those moments you don't have direct stimulation. It is designed to be addictive so it's a quick refuge from any unpleasantness which is mostly two things: boredom and social anxiety. You cannot be stoic if you don't ever face unpleasantness. You can't ever develop mentally when you put that phone in your face at every pause in exterior stimulation. You need that mental downtime to process things, but people addicted to social media never give their brains a chance to rest. It cripples your ability to discipline yourself and stay calm in more stressful situations.

If you're a young woman, nobody expects you to have a great deal of self-control and being a basic bitch, attention seeking, and/or being an eTHOT is tolerated if not downright encouraged. It's pretty much who social media was made for. I think a man is expected to have self-control and not feel he has to constantly interact with social media while doing other things. You shouldn't have the urge to share everything, nor consume everything everybody posts. What is so important that phone must come out at all times of day to be looked at? It's an addiction. They're avoiding real life. They're seeking validation. They're comparing themselves to others. They're distracting themselves with frivolous nonsense. I do know a lot of people who are just in it for the memes or stupid mindless crap, but they're still distracted from their higher purpose if they're not conscious of their social media use.

Just by virtue of being an addict you're not in total control of your mind, which indicates a lack of self-awareness, which is a requirement of stoicism. Uncontrollable social media use would indicate a lack of stoicism. Using social media for dopamine hits indicates a lack of stoicism because a stoic is free from worldly desires in this regard. A stoic would not have the desire to use social media unless the purpose of his use is to enrich himself monetarily, or to benevolently enrich others. Either way, a stoic has it under control. If you're not completely stoic, but you're working towards becoming stoic, then you wouldn't have a desire to use social media because of all the temptation and opportunity for abuse. In this way, social media serves to undermine serious attempts at stoicism.

A big part of what I do is just reading people, I read people's behavior and mannerisms and how they all add up to a bigger picture to form a profile for quick processing. Dudes who are always on their phones do come off as a little weak, maybe weak-willed, lacking of discipline, shy, timid, perhaps a little anxious, and not fully aware of their environment. Rarely, do I see a man on his phone in public, especially if it's a more active place, and think, "wow, this guy is so important or liked by others that he just has to check into his busy feed to post some updates for his adoring fans." A man who is engaged with the world around him, who is not always on his phone, I perceive this guy to be more well-adjusted, content with himself, more confident, and more disciplined overall.

If you get off social media, will you be "forced" to interact with other people while out in public? Not really. Most people are on their phone and don't want to interact with you. So if you're worried about your social anxiety acting up, then you shouldn't because everyone else is still plugged into the Matrix. Interestingly enough, most people of younger generations that came after the boomers--like people who are a little older than millenials, the millenials and down--have had their social skills shot by social media, so most people aren't going to interact with you regardless. Gradually, your social anxiety will improve because, little by little, you're forced to interact more by necessity. You're not giving off the message "don't talk to me I'm busy on my phone." You might actually share a moment with a complete fucking stranger and something good will come out of it. This is how people used to bond: over common experiences. Imagine that? Especially if you are new to a city or a school, you might not make a friend, but you'll have a connection, someone can give you some useful information. You will, however, attract a lot of crazy people, so beware of that.

And the final point I want to make is about principles. Have you ever sat down with yourself and thought about and identified what are your principles you live by? What do you want out of life? What are you willing to do for that? What are you willing to sacrifice? What do you think is right, moral, and just? Do you understand why you have chosen these things? What are your expectations, not just for yourself, but from other people? Who do want to associate with? How committed are you to your principles? Are you willing to support people and things that go against your principles because it's convenient for you? Are you willing to compromise your principles for others' sake? Stoicism requires the practice of self-awareness, of living an examined life, of establishing the principles that are going to lead you towards self-actualizaton. Most people are not principled and that's how they become social media addicts, or at the least, how they allow social media to poke holes in their frame leaving them vulnerable to other dangers.

The number one reason I stopped using Facebook was on principle. I hate Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook, and everything they do and represent. So why would I want to use Facebook? Because everyone else is using it? To show off? Most Facebook users are aware of the evil, they hate Zuckerberg and Co., they know it's bad for them, but they keep using it? Why? If they're not using it to their advantage, then they're addicted. I learned enough about Facebook that I became disgusted with it and the desire to use it evaporated overnight. The only attachment I had to Facebook was OTHER PEOPLE wanted me to use it for their own gains.

TL/DR: It may be vital for some people to use social media, and it can be used beneficially (monetarily), but most people are just addicted to it and have no control over its use. Social media undermines your ability to be stoic because it is an addictive distraction which stunts your mental development. I quit using Facebook on the principle I hate Facebook, so why the heck am I using it?

[–]TheFlyingPro6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Outstanding comment! Thank you man

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

In my case, I have an urge to show off my achievements to people who I no longer even interact with, like a couple of teachers, some folks froms my university and so on. As if I wanna prove something to them.

Great comment. I saved it. Thank you!

[–]Granite_Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Facebook doesn't let you move on in life because everyone friends you. Now you have all these people from your past, former coworkers from an old job, old teachers, old classmates, old acquaintances, people you no longer interact with, didn't really want to interact with, don't have much in common with, and have no intention of ever interacting again... they are semi-permanently attached to you forever via your friendslist. Most of those people only added you because they were trying to boost their friendslist numbers.

I remember back in the day before facebook, after a certain period of time in your life was over, you moved on and never saw those people again and it didn't matter. Now you're stuck with them. Now you're watching their kids grow up before your very eyes and you don't even know these people.

[–]AmputateYourHead0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent post, thanks mate!

[–]urbanfoh0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This comment made opening Reddit today worth it. Great input!

[–]rockyp32-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

What did u learn about FB

[–]Granite_Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Short answer: it's commie degeneracy, surveillance, manipulation, addictive by design, social engineering, and the people behind it are outright communists and technocratic authoritarians.

[–]LB-33 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy

“The only attachment I had to Facebook was OTHER PEOPLE wanted me to use it for their own gains” What would those gain from you having facebook?

[–]Granite_Pill1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

First, Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, whom I'm ideologically opposed to, benefits from me using it while I get very little in return.

Second, other people want to be able to look me up or see what I'm doing for various reasons.

Third, to make a long story short, I only joined Facebook because other people wanted me to be on it. Once I realized I hate Facebook, the only reason I could find to use it was to please those people. What are they doing for me? I should have just stuck to my principles in the first place and never got on it.

Case in point, a good way to find out who your real friends are is to suddenly deactivate your facebook with no explanation.

[–]LB-33 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

a good way to find out who your real friends are is to suddenly deactivate your facebook with no explanation

That's pretty spot on but in my country, every fucking person uses Instagram. Lots of people left FB and SOME people are using Snapchat but everyone is using Instagram. When I ask them ''Why are you using it'' they usually respond with ''To catch up with old acquintances and friends'' by following them and them following back. Whenever I see people on Instagram I feel left out even though i don't really give a fuck about what other people do, what they post, what they think about certain subjects(well, actually i care about their thoughts on certain subjects RARELY). I caught up with old friends of mine 2 months ago and one of them was saying that a guy from middle school got a girlfriend. I asked him ''how do you know it ?'' he responded with ''Through Instagram, people without Instagram will always be out of reach, out of touch with what's happenning'' and my other friend said that he got a girlfriend from Instagram and he even showed her pic to us. Sometimes i feel like i MUST create an Instagram account because (almost) all girls use Instagram and to game a girl or get a girlfriend, i must use instagram.

[–]Granite_Pill0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You sound like a younger generation than me. When instagram came out, I was already practicing stoicism and self-awareness, or in the process of developing those traits, so I immediately recognized the abusive potential of instagram for validation/attention seeking, vanity, and narcissism. One seeking to free themselves of worldly desires doesn't have much use for instagram, especially when I've lived most of my life without it. It was never a mechanism for finding things out about people or getting girlfriends. Instagram is made for flexing and showing off. This is pure distraction by worldly desires. It's not going to aide you in being stoic.

Tell anyone to delete their social media and they almost always say they keep it to stay in touch with friends/family. It's baloney. They are addicted to it.

What are your principles? Why would you feel left out for sticking to your principles? If you want to show off for people on instagram, if that's in line with your values, then do it.

I can pick up girls without having an instagram. It's never an issue. The topic never even comes up. I don't know what your goals are long term with a woman, but a woman you meet online is usually trash anyway.

Thinking you need instagram to get a girlfriend is already the wrong mindset because you're relying on instagram to get the girls and not yourself. You'll never be out of touch with people that actually matter in your life because you'll reach out to each other in other ways. Your "friends" haven't made any effort to reach out to you or inform of anything going on in their lives or ask you about what's going on in yours. Where's the connection? You're not on instagram, so I guess you don't matter?

All these people are plugged into the Matrix. They need it to feel happy. They do not want to unplug from it. They will angrily defend it and think you're weird for not using it. You're not plugged in, you see what's going on. You're free of the addiction most other people around you have. You should feel relieved, but instead you feel left out, almost sad about it. Why?

Start by practicing self-awareness. Analyze your thoughts and feelings. Why do you feel left out? Why do you feel like you need to have instagram to get girls? Are you self-content, or do you feel the need to seek validation from others? Why? What's going on? Even if you decide instagram won't harm you that bad overall and has utility for you, figure out why abstaining from it conjures up all these negative emotions for you. Peer pressure, social pressure, wanting to fit in, to belong--these are powerful evolutionary forces.

[–]LB-33 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

In order to bang chicks, you have to show that you have large social network/entourage. A chick in my country WILL want to check your Instagram to see if you have large social network/entourage, i mean nobody wants a guy with few friends/acquaintances right ? Without Instagram I don't think people would believe that you have large entourage so that will make your social status look weak.

[–]Granite_Pill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

In order to bang chicks you just have to be attractive and confident. You don't need photographic evidence. Attractive people will naturally have a lot of friends and associates. Not all people will have the type of personality or geographic situation that generates a huge social network and there's nothing wrong with that. Most people are only asking to add you on social media to boost their own friends list numbers anyway. Get a life and do what you want to do because you enjoy it, not to impress others. Once you've started using social media to photodocument your life to prove to THOTs your SMV, you've lost stoicism, you've lost self-integrity.

If a woman has to do a background check on you by looking up your instagram to decide whether or not she's going to fuck you or not, then you're just not attractive enough to her for some reason. Get over it and move on.

If you're just trying to get laid and you're just using it to peacock as part of your strategy, then it's just means to an end, but it's not stoic.

[–]the1pope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]thesquarerootof113 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy

I believe my opinion on the issue is popular here but let me say it anyway:

Having a social media account (besides an anonymous one like Reddit) mostly shows that you're insecure and/or narcissistic. A man who is confident doesn't need a social media account. I've had a great thing that has happened in my life recently and I did not share it on Facebook/Instagram because I personally don't need validation from others (I don't have Instagram, Facebook, etc although I was addicted to FB at one point in time).

Social media is more for women. Think about it for a second: a woman can post a picture of herself and she'll get thousands of likes but if a man does it then he gets 5 likes if he's lucky. Social media also destroys people's reputation and it should be avoided at all costs. Social media is a woman's world. It's a place for women to show how great their lives are "look at me and my boyfriend! We're so in love! #Relationship goals". A man posting a lot about their personal life and selfies shows that he is insecure and narcissistic.

So to answer your question: yes. If anyone disagrees then I would still be open to hearing your input. I just don't give a shit about validation. I think it's lame, especially if a man does it.

[–]SeasonedRP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think you're right. It is mostly for women. I personally have a social media account to keep up with family, friends in other cities, and business colleagues I know on a personal level and no longer deal with regularly. For these purposes, it's fine, and I mostly interact with these people. I've also met women on there. I don't like their posts or contact them, but if they contact me and interest me, I've followed up and had success.

On balance, what I observe on social media is not good. I see a lot of married women using it to enable affairs, and I see ridiculous spats over who liked someone's posts or other silliness. There are so many thirsty men on there that it is pathetic. Social media is primarily a way for women to get validation and branch swing.

[–]rpsheepdog7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

. I've always felt that there is something wrong with the idea that you have to put yourself out there so that other people can "rate" you

This is interesting because I don't really feel the urge to put myself out there to get rated. I view it more as a place where I have the option to put out whatever I want. I don't really have the urge to put shit out there just for the sake of putting it out there.

Personally, I use social media mostly for it's intended purpose, I connect with other people in my hobby/sport, and use it as a motivational tool to see what my peers are doing and strive to do better.

That being said, I can see where it would be easy to get trapped into looking at memes all day or start chasing the "likes". I definitely think society puts too much emphasis on social media though.

[–]HotHead1215 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Social media is a paradox...

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Social media can be used for business purposes but otherwise I wouldn’t spend too much time on it - put a nice picture here and there

[–]CaptainBW4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I grew up with it. It was, and I’d imagine still is, a large part of my peers lives. I deleted all my social media (besides Reddit blah blah) about a year and half ago mind has been clear ever since. It’s a drug. I have no regrets about dropping off the map. It hasn’t hindered me with getting pussy, and the peace of mind is difficult to put into words until you step away from it. Unless you’re building a business/brand, there’s no reason to have it. Men here will hamster away “social proof,” but this is to bend to the grander feminine frame. Be better than that. Not having services to scroll endlessly on forces you to cultivate more productive, creative, and enriching hobbies for yourself.

[–]TheRedPillRipper5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Stoicism to me is a mindset. Social media is a tool. Most use it for validation but others use it as source. Of information. Of contacts. To me; it’s been for the networks.

Godspeed and good luck!

[–]strongfarts4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I had the exact same thoughts as you, hence I deleted all my social media. Kept only the messenger app so I can contact some international mates since I live abroad from my home country and I travel quite a bit.

Now no more selfie infestations on my phone or meaningless photos of drinks taken at bars and etc.

[–]Organicital4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Facebook was actually designed to exploit the brains reward system.

[–]masterduelistky1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I was never the type of person to post a ton on social media, only when I thought I had something important to me that I wanted to share with people I normally couldn’t contact or see. Even less after graduating college a few years ago. I recently posted on Instagram and Facebook well after a year, trying my hardest to let my accounts be deleted to keep myself from being jealous of others and stalking my ex after she dumped me well over a year ago. It was doing nothing positive for me.

I have to say, the temporary waves of getting likes or whatever was fun for a day but the more I thought about it, the more of an addiction it became. The validation you feel almost by comparing yourself to others will only end up in a vicious cycle, which is what these companies want you to feel. I started wasting so much time scrolling through mostly meaningless pictures once again.

I mean at the end of the day, who really cares? Some friends may genuinely care about what’s going on, but most don’t. Liking a picture really doesn’t mean much of anything, and you’ll only obsess over it more.

Probably part of me posting that picture after being depressed for so long is to show my ex that I’m ok now, which I know is really stupid. People just want to show their best on social media, but it’s not the complete picture not by far. It’s a drug that most just can’t quit.

I ideally would like to delete all of these apps, outside of Messenger which even now continues to be the most useful way to keep in contact with friends, but it’s hard to feel like you’re not included in what’s going on. Especially for me as a man, I just don’t think it benefits me in anyway that I couldn’t get by virtue of just having an exciting life.

[–]Original_Dankster0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

The opposite for me. Social media has reinforced my hardcore right wing attitudes (the Overton window is close to catching up to me), my disdain for weakness or stupidity in others and general shitlord behaviour. So... It is what you make it to be.

[–]Granite_Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good point. It was actually a meme I saw on Facebook that was the catalyst that changed my political ideology from liberal to right-wing. I was already on the cusp of it, I just needed a clever meme to put it all in perspective.

[–]bigfatdubsack 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

Feminine on social media? Hell no, my IG is nothing but gains, Harley’s, and beautiful women. I don’t do this shit for attention, I’m documenting my rad fucking life and creating memories 🤘

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Then why don't you just save it all to a cloud/hard drive?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

To meet other people who have similar interests and would like to come along for the journey

[–]juggernaut81 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Is this sarcasm? I really can't tell.

[–]1walawalawa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Should we, as men, abstain from Social Needia, even though it may bring results, so we do not fall into the trap of becoming feminized?

Social media is turning a generation into attention whores and whiners. Stay away from posting your "feelings". Personally I avoid political topics.

I use it to notify fans and members of my musical group of upcoming events. I share videos or musical clips. That raises my value with girls while avoiding the "soy" elements I wrote about above.
Consider social media as a tool. If it helps raise your value then leverage it.

[–]Anasthaesium0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Apple has great products . Should they stop all PR activities ?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Apple is a company. Even a lot of celebrities hire people to manage their SM.

[–]wholewheatdirtydog0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think that there are certain steps that you can take in order to prevent yourself from giving out free validation. For example on Snapchat the first thing I do when I add a female is mute their story so I don't end up clicking it when im bored. When I first started reading TRP I used to even mute female contacts as I would reply so fast it was embarrassing.

[–]TerranOPZ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

AS much as I hate facebook, I have found value in finding stuff I like to do like underground electronic music/dancing classes. I also like FB marketplace and the roommates on there have been invaluable.

I don't define myself as redpill, I was just searching reddit. Although some of the stuff is true.

[–]NextForever0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Social media is a pathetic endeavor, but very useful when properly used.

Reddit for information and IG for business/getting laid is all ya need.

I’m really only on here for Ethereum news and other misc. crypto investment.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Using IG for getting laid makes you complacent. All in all having an IG account is cringeworthy if you are not a celeb or promote a brand there imo. Vote me down all you want, I can't be convinced otherwise. By "promoting" yourself on IG you are basically doing what all the chicks are doing, and every BP beta loser at that. In today's amplified herd-mentality world you need to stand out as a rarity. Read "Digital Minimalism" by Cal Newport. He explains how regardless of your willpower and IQ you fall prey to these services. If you don't wanna spent $ on it I can throw you a link with an e-version of the book.

[–]NextForever0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Thanks for the recommendation. Fortunately, I don’t fall under your blanket assumption.

There ain’t a single photo of myself, I folllow 0 people, and is purely stills from my cinematography work.

Regarding, getting laid. More so for women I already met whom I spaced on grabbing their number.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

If it is related to your craft then all the power to you. Great minimalist profile btw. I am sure you attract a lot of pseudo-intellectual chicks, which is great.

[–]NextForever0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks man.

Ehhh, sorta. I’ve been mainly focusing on going professional in cello, /cinematography, and investing in Ethereum (which is about to explode like early 2017 again by the way, couldn’t advocate more to get in before the Golden Cross approaching). Not enough time to for the hunt these days.

[–]Bedtimeshine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Social media is extremely feminine. I cannot not take you seriously as a man if you are on it.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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