A lesbian feminist writer once disguised herself as a man for 18 months to write a book on gender. After the experiment, she was institutionalized for depression, and stated that she never felt so glad for being a woman.

trplurker · 2014-09-08T05:07:20+00:00

This book pops up on here every six months or so. I read it awhile back, absolutely great read. She wrote it during her time in the institution from her diary she kept during her "experiment". Against her editors wish's she wrote about her experiences without any modification, meaning she didn't go back and alter / sugar coat her memories to reflect political correctness. She wrote things exactly as she experienced them, often without even knowing what she was writing.

The best part of this book isn't what she says, but what she doesn't. You can actually see her mind starting to crack and the forming of a split personality. Her pseudo male persona, Ned, had started deeply resenting her original female persona and the prejudices it held. "He" started developing self destructive thoughts and tendencies, wanting to punish himself for the attitudes and assumptions he held as Norah. Ned started loathing feminists and to an extent all women. Basically he entered into the "anger" phase after being forcibly fed the red pill.

You can even see her attraction to the strong stoic "alpha" male in the part where she's in a men's support group. That's the phase that really broke her, seeing other men's suffering and then relating to it and entering into a sympathetic mindset. She kinda saw her former self as the pretentious monster it was, and well we all know the kinds of crazy a women's mind enters when it's forced to acknowledge the consequences of their own actions.

exit_sandman · 2014-09-08T07:32:22+00:00

A, Self Made Man, never gets old (seriously, a recommendation should go to the sidebar). I wanted to open a thread with some of the choicest paragraphs, but didn't get so far except one excerpt about dating (post wall) women. Here it is:

[...] But for those women - who had never dated other women, and thus never been romantially hurt by them - men as a subspecies, not the particular men with whom they had been involved, were to blame for the wreck of a relationship and the psychic damage it had done to them.

It's hardly surprising, then, that in this atmosphere, as a single man dating women, I often felt attacked, judged, on the defensive. Whereas with the men I met and befriended as Ned there was a presumption of innocence - that is, you're a good guy until you prove otherwise - with women there was quite often a presumption of guilt: you're a cad like every other guy until you prove otherwise.

"Pass my test and then we'll see if you're worthy of me" was the implicit message coming across the table at me. And this from women who had demonstrably little to offer. "Be lighthearted," they said, though buoyant as lead zeppelins themselves. "Be kind," they insisted in the harshest of tones. "Don't be like others," they implied, while having virtually condemned me as such beforehand.

The bitterest women I met were usually in their midthirties or older. They'd been through the mill a bit and they'd probably had more than their share of hellish dates or hit-and-run relationships before I came along. To hear them tell it, the pool of eligible, mature, stable, reciprocating, emotionally evolved men out there was small and polluted, and having to wade through it when what you wanted most in life was to settle down and start a family would be enough to shorten anyone's fuse.

Then again, many of the women I met weren't emotional giants either, nor were they particularly well adjusted or stable. They just considered themselves as such. And even the ones who knew they were damaged seemed to feel entitled to expect stolidity from a man, as if, in the time-honored way of things, a man is supposed to be strong, to hold things together for a woman, to hold her up when she can't do it herself.

And this coming from a lesbian who happens to be a feminist.

unethical_pirate · 2014-09-07T22:18:46+00:00

http://youtu.be/Ip7kP_dd6LU

Actually sounds really interesting, I've just ordered her book.

Edit: just had a look at some reviews on Amazon, I normally like to form my own views before doing that. All the 1 star reviews are angry feminists, pissed off that she is empathising and seeing the world from a male prospective. Which is of course the whole point of the book. Pretty funny. I'm looking forward to reading it now.

dvrzero · 2014-09-08T04:00:31+00:00

Whoops. Looks like we forgot to give her the Patriarchy Membership Card, which unlocks all the perks of being male.

TigerBloodOfChrist · 2014-09-07T21:58:04+00:00

This article (cited in the Wikipedia article) goes a little more in-depth and it's very honest and telling:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982&singlePage=true

Vincent's first act as a newly minted male was to join a quintessential bastion of camaraderie -- a men's bowling team in a working-class Pennsylvania neighborhood. The only problem: She's a terrible bowler. But the men didn't boot her off the team. "It's an amazing thing, because I think that shows you the generosity that they had," she said. Her experience with these men turned some of her long-held perceptions about men being harsh and rejecting and women being warm and welcoming upside down. "I mean, it was just the most wonderful rush to get these guys' handshakes, and I felt comfortable, I mean as comfortable as I could feel, right away. They just took me in ... no questions asked," she said. The team bowled together for nine months and gradually Vincent gained entrance to their inner sanctum. She found that all the cussing and good-natured ribbing is just how men often show affection for one another.

"We don't have to do the part where you cross the room and you go up to a stranger that you've never met in the middle of a room full of people and say the first words. And those first words are so hard to say without sounding like a cheeseball or sounding like a jerk." Vincent encountered some pretty cold shoulders in her attempts at the bar, but she did manage to go on about 30 dates with women as "Ned," mostly arranging them on the Internet. Vincent said the dates were rarely fun and that the pressure of "Ned" having to prove himself was grueling. She was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man. "My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no, that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man, and they want his stoicism," she said.

And probably the best of all

"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better," she said. "They need our sympathy. They need our love, and maybe they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together." Ironically, Vincent said, it took experiencing life as a man for her to appreciate being a woman. "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."

SenorPuff · 2014-09-08T01:37:42+00:00

I've seen feminists comment on this book with stuff like "She's just one woman and doesn't count" or "She hung out with guys who were creeps/losers that don't represent men"

:/

scum101 · 2014-09-08T03:28:11+00:00

A man doing the same thing would be a great trp experiment. Just like women about men, we have a lot of assumptions on what it is like to be a woman. But actual knowledge from first hand experience would be an invaluable tool.

Imagine a woman reading that book and using what she has learned to fulfill her needs. Now imagine what you could do with that kind of information.

razometer · 2014-09-08T01:35:34+00:00

Looks like the hamster got off the wheel.

Rougepellet · 2014-09-08T05:24:32+00:00

I feel that with men, they suffer silently because they don't want to burden anyone with their own shit (at least it's this way for me). Women NEED people to lean on though, that's why they go in herds or look for a strong man who can deal with his and her shit.

Doctor_Mayhem · 2014-09-07T21:32:20+00:00

Well... there you have it. The reason that females can't empathize with us is because if they spent even a small amount of time walking a mile in our shoes, they'd go insane.

In the words of one of the Manosphere's greatest commenters... lolzozlozlozlzolzozlozlzolzolzozlzlozlzlzlozlolozlozlozlozlozlzolzozlozzlzlzlozlozlozozolzlolzozlololzolzolzozlozlozlzolzozolzozlzozzzozozozlolololz

anonlymouse · 2014-09-08T03:49:03+00:00

Did she have anything to say about work? My experience is that men at work have higher expectations; it would be interested to see if she noted a change in work place treatment instead of man retreats, bowling, and the cloister.

vpwnz · 2014-09-08T05:48:03+00:00

Bought the book, fantastic read. I recommend it. Norah is one intelligent cookie.

dman8 · 2014-09-08T04:44:52+00:00

I think most women would find this the same.

As a female their life is ironed out, if their personality or humour isn't that great they get given a pass on it. They get cheered for even the most minor of compliments.

Men don't get these things. We are shaped in battle and forced to improve.

uriahsw · 2014-09-08T04:30:59+00:00

I read this book before. It's very fascinating and was quite insightful. It's mostly written in a storytelling tone, so it's not like a rigorous study akin to A Billion Wicked Thoughts, but it's very insightful none the less.

fuckingkike · 2014-09-07T23:00:09+00:00

Shouldn't be that surprising since trans women outnumber trans men by around 3:1 even though there's about as many genderqueer men as genderqueer women.

TK-85 · 2014-09-08T16:38:13+00:00

Wow, thanks for posting this. I'm pretty tempted to read Voluntary Madness just to see what parts of being a man drove her into the hospitals and why.

whitey_male · 2014-09-08T12:28:05+00:00

But patriarchy! All men are a part of the elite, the Illuminati, the Rothchilds, and we make $1m a second and have sex with a different 18 year old every day.

he-man_rules · 2014-09-08T08:12:47+00:00

Very good on her to do that. Many feminists wouldn't even consider doing this, let alone doing it for 18 months.!

cloverhaze · 2014-09-08T14:28:09+00:00

I think she used depression as an excuse to do research on mental health institutions and write another book

Eenjoy · 2014-09-08T00:03:21+00:00

Lol.. Just the title alone tells everyone what dudes go thru.. She gets institutionalized.. We rise above the shit.. A couple screws might be loose Lol.. But we rise!!!!... (300 scream)

Esminia · 2014-09-08T03:01:24+00:00

Her institutionalization was a result of having to live a complete lie about who she was for 18 months and being cut off from the normal life she knew. It can't be taken as an example of how hard men have and how women can't hack it as men.

[deleted] · 2014-09-08T02:31:26+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SmellyJelly22 · 2014-09-08T05:13:35+00:00

I'm confused.

Is TRP supposed to be about how being a man is awesome and teaches men to embrace their masculinity or is it supposed to be a pity party where everybody whines and cries about how hard men have it?

Because if its a pity party, count me out. I love being a man and I think the only people that get screwed by being a man are idiots that don't understand the legal system and dudes that buy into feminist logic like "whoever is the biggest victim wins" and "blame your problems on society/the government/anybody but yourself."

timthetollman · 2014-09-08T14:25:27+00:00

I think she got depressed from the stress of being something she's not more so than actually being a man.

vvanderbilt · 2014-09-08T18:26:38+00:00

She's sort of a neocon IIRC

eixan · 2014-09-08T03:05:20+00:00

Ouran high school host club relatedly is the best show ever. I mean the show does expire mens issues with any specific depth but if helped me as go guy to watch the show. The main character a girl who is seen as guy feels like a necessary handshake between the genders. Women are the ones who seen as cute and pretty but the main character dressed as a man is constantly looked at by other characters male and female as being cute and pretty while looking like a guy That's precious to me.

dubknight · 2014-09-08T01:49:40+00:00

Don't jump in the water if you can't swim.

zephyrprime · 2014-09-08T18:26:51+00:00

I read that book. It's too bad she just isn't very good of a writer and not very insightful either because the experiment she undertook was absolutely priceless and if only she had been a better writer it could have maybe have had a bigger impact on the literary world than it did.

vzhu · 2014-09-07T23:34:46+00:00

There's a search bar on the right. Use it.

Title	A lesbian feminist writer once disguised herself as a man for 18 months to write a book on gender. After the experiment, she was institutionalized for depression, and stated that she never felt so glad for being a woman.
Author	Captain_Unremarkable
Upvotes	969
Comments	175
Date	07 September 2014 08:52 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	TheRedPill
Link	https://theredarchive.com/post/228286
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2fqy4h/a_lesbian_feminist_writer_once_disguised_herself/