~ archived since 2018 ~
Popular
Other
IllimitableMan
[–]rexregnum 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
This article is a C+ at best, but I'm a harsher critic than most. Personally I wouldn't even give it a D-. I'm actually quite disappointed because I thought I was going to read something interesting and challenging but only found intellectual impotence.
First of all, I have read The Prince about a half dozen times, and this article seems more like this one guy's opinion of how Machiavellianism applies to the dating game as opposed to how it actually does. Just because at the bottom he puts up a link to Amazon for The Prince (gotta love affiliate marketing) does not mean there is any real reference to or appreciation of the book itself. As someone who's spent more time reading The Prince than any other book, sans Atlas Shrugged and the Bible, this bothers the hell out of me. In fact, I honestly don't think this author has even read the book and is just pumping up the word "Machiavelli" to make you want to click the link at the end and buy the book. Here are a few places that the guy went wrong:
Skilled machiavellian’s are very good at creating the illusion of being more powerful than they are and thus regardless of their actual power, are usually perceived as more powerful/cunning than they are in reality.
Wrong. If you read Machiavelli this is almost the exact opposite of what he says. He believes it is much better to use a lot of your cunning to make people fear you than it is to use too little. However - using too little means you actually have more than you are perceived to have. A true student of Machiavelli can tell that he thinks Perception Is Reality. He may honestly be the first person to have officially said this, but anyway... if perception is reality (the fundamental doctrine of Machiavelli's "virtue") then you don't have less power than what you're perceived to have. In the words of another great, "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Take out good/bad and replace with strong/weak and you have a SparkNotes version of Machiavelli.
However, the author does sort of get at this here. I'll give him that, but it still almost glances over it:
Skilled machiavellian’s are very good at creating the illusion of being more powerful than they are and thus regardless of their actual power, are usually perceived as more powerful/cunning than they are in reality. They don’t just possess power but they project the image of having power to those around them.
Then, this is where the author starts talking really out of his ass:
A machiavellianist will run rings around the average person, to the uninitiated the machiavellian’s grasp over psychology and their ability to wield manipulative cognitive tools so effectively can seem almost esoteric due to the amount of control it commands
I don't even know where to begin. This is absolutely ludicrous. Aside from the fact that the guy doesn't know to capitalize Machiavellian and the guy invents the word "Machiavellianist," the guy starts talking about "cognitive tools." Machiavelli has nothing to do with cognitive tools - it has to do with philosophy and political systems. It has to do with appearance and reputation, force and power.
It has to do with virtue - which is the essence of TRP - because virtue is the duality of society. Virtue is not about what is good - virtue is about what is effective. Originally from the Latin word "vir" - for force or power - virtue was considered "good" because it not only helped you move up in society, but in order to be have "virtue" (power) you had to make people think you were a good person.
Interestingly enough - "VIR" in virtue is also the source for the word "VIR-gin" because women who were chaste long enough were able to find themselves any husband they wanted while all of the other women in the village or city were broken down sluts. As you can tel, "virtue" in this sense isn't about being an angel but about women finding the best possible husbands. "Virgin" is about power, nothing more nothing less. This duality applies to the flip side of Machiavelli's approach to morality, an example of which would be hurting girls emotions when you call them out on their games and tricks while trying to play coy.
Also, the guy who wrote this article says this is a tool for the wealthy and elite or whatever... but think about why the original text was written in Italian instead of Latin... a book by one of the smartest men in Italy at the time, who almost always wrote to other nobles in Latin? - the guy was writing it for the public to understand how the elite and masters of the race operate. Perhaps a good idea and perhaps not, but he did it because Florence was occupied at the time and Machiavelli's cohorts were out of power - he probably had hoped that the book would end up in the hands of more people. A 15th Century Italy Red Pill, if you will.
Oh, and not to mention that he puts a link for "The Art of War"... by Sun Tzu... but his website lists a version by Machiavelli. I wasn't aware Machiavelli coincidentally wrote a book by the same title as Sun Tzu; or perhaps the author just doesn't know the subject matter that well. It also amazes me that not once does it reference The Discourses by Machiavelli, which are as much as 1/3 to 1/2 of Machiavelli's entire framework.
However, as a major fan of Machiavelli, I strongly recommend reading him. I've read three editions, and in order from first to last, strongly recommend these:
1) Harvey Mansfield's version - by far the best one written.
Not only are each and every word carefully attended to, this guy is the most TRP academic I've ever read. Here he is on destroying feminism and here he is discussing "What makes a man?"
Anyone really interested in understanding Machiavelli should pick this version up. I have it because I lost my first version, bought a second version and then really got interested and bought this one. The best thing is that it flows so naturally without losing any of the meaning of The Prince's original intent. Also, Mansfeld is just an amazing guy who has stood up to the radicals, liberals and feminists in Ivy League academia for years.
2) Angelo Codevilla's verion
This version is pretty good too and also has several essays by leading Machiavelli scholars in the back which I found really useful - they talk about applying Machivelli to the modern world and how it's both incredibly significant and slightly irrelevant because of our modern political structures (and for TRP's interest, social power structures are analogous). Also, Codevilla focuses on the most critical word in the book - virtue - throughout the entire translation. It doesn't hurt that like Machiavelli, Codevilla is also Italian - however, Codevilla is (and is also another Red Pill leaning academic) lives in America now and speaks English. The translation works phenomenally and is a close second to Dr Mansfield's.
3) The one on this guy's website - the Bull translation. It's an okay translation and is a fuck of a lot better than anything I could do. Still, I've heard it ignores several important words that are meant to have double meanings. This is probably because Bull isn't a Machiavelli scholar or a native to Italy or an original speaker of Italian.
In all honesty, screw this article. Downvote the fuck out of it please. It pisses me off that some two-bit author can come and post a link to his website just to pump up traffic when the content is almost a total fraud. It's like he just took a bunch of TRP jargon and swallowed it, shit it out onto a blog and then inserted a few quotes related to power and sprinkled on the word Machiavelli and some links to Amazon. This is such BS and a giant middle finger to Machiavelli - who, by the way, actually does have a tremendous amount to do with TRP logic. This guy has no idea how though.
Anyway, I wont be collecting any revenue from the links you guys click, if you choose to and end up buying the books - and mine are better... and I hoped I was actually informative.
Also, I have to assume I've offended at least one or two people. I'm taking law school exams for the next two weeks and am slammed but am not opposed to chatting it up on here when I'm done.
Peace in your yeast.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I do not have enough time to discuss this at length and give it the time it deserves. Some good points, very harsh criticism. Unwarranted ad hominem but like u said you're drunk. Insults aside, Good post. Hopefully you stick around.
[–][deleted] 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah I don't know if I was clear - although Machiavelli is definitely a historical figure and I do mention him and link to the Prince, the article was not about Machiavelli or his beliefs/teachings/life etc, it was about Machiavellianism/Social manipulation. I was describing where the term gets its etymology from and thus mention him briefly, I link to his book as further reading on the topic on his personal philosophy and how readers can derive elements and apply them to their "own machiavellianism", but the piece is not about his personal philosophy/perception of what constitutes manipulation and all the romantic translated italian nuances he expressed, but merely the art of the game itself - which gets it's name from his surname.
I believe I read somewhere "you were smashed" which were I'm from, means you're drunk. Lol.
Yes machiavellianist is a neologism I use, rather than simply saying machiavellian. I think the word form makes sense.
Anyhow, apologies if my intimate knowledge of Machiavelli is not to a standard you deem acceptable, I do intend to study him more in-depth, but time is precious, my life is busy and unfortunately leisure reading doesn't get top priority, as much as I wish it could do.
[–]blazingblue16 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Have you read the Wootton edition, if you have what are your thoughts on it?
[–][deleted] 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]blazingblue16 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thank you, for your detailed and informative answers!
[–]JohnPeel 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
This is very similar to how Hitler used to keep the balance of power in the Third Reich. Whilst it prevented his subordinates from threatening his power, it caused huge problems when say the army and the airforce needed to co-ordinate an attack, as the leaders of both divisions would absolutely refuse to co-operate. So in this example none of the 5 women will ever work together and then your productivity will tank, which is only ever going to cause you problems with your boss (who is the only person who matters).
What you actually need to do is give them light responsibilities with the illusion of power - make them each in charge of something irrelevant and force them to deal with one another. Make one in charge of the stationery, one in charge of the photocopier, whatever. You can regale them with all kinds of nonsense such as "hey since I put you in charge of the photocopying, we've saved 10% off our paper bill" and then make them employee of the month, give them a medal or a plaque or something. Randomly decide who gets the award based upon bullshit things, or use it as a mild form of punishment. Symbolic honours are a very powerful tool, look at medals in the military for example.
The gist of it is you want to give them their own little domain to keep them occupied and feel important, but not actively fighting each other (as that is very very bad). And to re-iterate we don't want to actually give them real power, the power should be vested in the procedure (such as you have to fill out a form for the stationary, or you are allocated a maximum of 50 sheets per day for the photocopier) and that if the rules are broken the only person who can dish out discipline is yourself. Essentially you are granting them "power" by convincing them to do exactly what you would do anyway.
The irony!
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Great post!
Edit: When I wrote this my consideration was instilling segregation, I did not simultaneously consider morale and profit from the business perspective, simply put I wanted to demonstrate how you could turn people against each other rather easily when they appear to be of solid union and represent a threat to you. In low level positions people are easily replaceable so you could easily sack those involved and get new people in. Of course, I very much like your method, it's more benevolent machiavellianism, operant conditioning and positive reinforcement than it is negative reinforcement or "darkness" ala, the dark triad.
If you have to walk a fine line and are in an institution of some kind then your method is by far superior.
[–]JohnPeel 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yes, I will admit your method is effective for the stated goal and it's always nice to foster discussion.
I have used aggressive or so called "dark" methods before, as they are the only ones that work with women who possess a cluster B personality disorder (such as BPD). Those women seem to lack any kind of humanity to the point where you have to hurt them in a drastic way to maintain control so it's nice to have those skills in your toolset.
To provide an anecdote, I have done it with an ex of mine. It involved describing my new girlfriend to her in rather average terms, discussing her minor character flaws etc. when she was of course objectively attractive (and very intelligent), and her flaws were minor and common to pretty much anyone. We were then going to a group gathering and I made her doll up really nicely until she then looked stunning. When my ex saw her, her jaw hit the floor so hard it nearly fell off - she was so hurt and indignant that I thought this other girl was "average". It's particularly amusing to me as in they were both equally attractive and intelligent, it's just that one of them frequently mis-applied it.
In fact a further point I'd like to make, speaking to everyone, if the above anecdote is not amusing to you then you do not have it in you to try out these techniques.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It involved describing my new girlfriend to her in rather average terms, discussing her minor character flaws etc. when she was of course objectively attractive (and very intelligent), and her flaws were minor and common to pretty much anyone. We were then going to a group gathering and I made her doll up really nicely until she then looked stunning. When my ex saw her, her jaw hit the floor so hard it nearly fell off - she was so hurt and indignant that I thought this other girl was "average".
Ahahahahahahahaha. Incredibly amusing. Having them meet each other would only flare up the sense of competition and encourage mate guarding (defensiveness in the new bitch, regret in the old bitch)
Yep, I've met my fair share of Cluster Bs. Cluster Bs are enamoured with asshole game/dark machiavellianism. I and a friend of mine refer to them as "Lucifer's Daughters" they are so fucking off the walls, it's like the crazy got intelligence, grew a pair of legs and became its own entity.
[–]JohnPeel 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well it was even better with the new girl, she was fresh, hadn't even been near another man before and had a rather sheltered upbringing. The result was she was completely oblivious to the fermenting pot of jealousy in the room. This of course made the ex feel even worse, because this girl was younger, prettier and more virtuous and was (accidentally) aloof giving her an almost regal quality. I'll admit there were a few happy accidents with the situation which contributed to the hilarity, but still.
Also:
I and a friend of mine refer to them as "Lucifer's Daughters" they are so fucking off the walls, it's like the crazy got intelligence, grew a pair of legs and became its own entity.
Love it. Also keep it up with the series, you've gone for quite a brazen approach but it's a good way to get the basic concepts across, subtlety is something people learn with practice anyway.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
subtlety is something people learn with practice anyway.
If I was subtle I don't think the message would get through properly. Most people need a slap to perceive reality, not a prod.
[–]unsungman2 points 10 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Very nice. Not many are willing to discuss what I think is one of the most practical personality traits out there. IMO you're either born with it or you're not (most Machiavellians are "naturals" though don't confuse that with the "natural" ladies man or natural alpha). However, it can definitely be learned and applied with great success.
In any case, if you're interested here's one of the best books I've ever read on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Machiavellians-Defenders-James-Burnham/dp/0895267853
From the reviews it looks like the book is out of print...which is unfortunate because it's the best damn book I've ever read.
In fact, reading your post and the parts about office politics make me wanna read this baby again with my new job. Since you seem interested in the topic I'd really recommend it. It's a great read...you can find it at any library but if you actually buy the thing you won't regret it.
That book is commanding triple digits in pound sterling. Hot damn.
[–]blinkyone 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's available for free via digital borrowing through Open Library.
Thanks for the heads up
[–]BIG_Daddy_Government 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
even though i know alot of the stuff said, I find a liking to your posts. The way you express yourself easily resonates within me. If this sub gets shutdown, don't stop, i as many others will continue reading your wordpress.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I appreciate the support, thanks.
[–]Sunny_McJoyride 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
For anyone interested in Machiavellianism at work, take a look at The Gervais Principle, Or The Office According to “The Office”.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thanks, this has me interested in downloading the US version of "The Office"
[–]Hidrosiss 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
nah man nah, watch something smart like The Wire, if you haven't already. Because you have to let bitches know, when they come at the king, they best not miss.
[–]zionController 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I could write a dissertation about the dark triad. Its almost too effective, but not really sustainable long term.
[–]vivalaredpill 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Please do. Many of us find this topic fascinating.
[–]1mrust 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The modern office example was worth keeping, even with the added length.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Cunning, but also sort of evil. An alternative solution to the office dilemma is to just be blunt and efficient, aka "A Hardass."
Weak men and women alike tow the line when confronted by an individual with a clear-cut way of doing things. Remember, if you play games with your workers, they just might do the same to you.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
if you play games with your workers, they just might do the same to you.
It's always a game, automatic losers are the non-participants by nature of the game being unavoidable, but the people in question being being deluded into thinking they can opt out by "being above that." The fact is, not being manipulative is not "above" being manipulative, manipulation always trumps non-manipulation.
However you're quite right, there's usually always a battle for dominance/respect in all paradigms, if anyone is savvy enough to acknowledge your devices, they will grow distaste and may subsequently conspire against you, which ultimately means heightened threat and a challenge to your own machiavellianism.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Manipulation always trumps non-manipulation
Not if you take care to not be manipulated. There's a certain beauty in simplicity, an efficiency in having it be crystal clear what is expected of you and what you expect from other people. Machiavellian thought thrives in decadent atmospheres like the corporate office, but is almost unheard of in successful start ups and small but effective firms.
Not if you take care to not be manipulated.
You must employ machiavellianism to not be manipulated otherwise if you don't, you will be manipulated by nature of your own inaction. Assuming you are clued in, acknowledging and ignoring will only take you so far before you are required to perform an action. Whether it's a defensive measure or an offensive one, you still need to participate in the war of minds.
Machiavellian thought thrives in decadent atmospheres like the corporate office, but is almost unheard of in successful start ups and small but effective firms.
Most definitely, startups and small firms are more personal and thus require cooperation and good morale to get shit done. Corporations are far less personal and sometimes just down right dehumanising, its that climate which fosters machiavellianist thought to manifest in a dark way, when people intimately need each other they are adverse to harming their own self-interests, making people need you or be reliant on you is actually a machiavellianist tactic (create dependency) small firms and shit are no less machiavellian than say a huge firm, there's just less variables and more interconnectivity and its this sense of closeness and dependency which keeps the people there from negatively violating those around them.
When the small firm gets big and can replace you, it won't care about you anymore because your individual value is far lower now than it was when the firm was just a startup. Manipulation is everywhere, it's just not always manifesting negatively, although typically, it does. The charm offence can work wonders and I'm inclined to believe that's the sort of atmosphere these smaller places try to foster - but that's not out of benevolence, merely self-preservation.
Just because something is enjoyable, doesn't mean it isn't manipulative. In fact one of the most enjoyable acts a human can have, sex, is probably weaponised to fuck.
[–]zionController -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
but not really sustainable long term.
Elaboration?
[–]zionController 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Evidenced by all the women who complain about their quote psycho ex boyfriends endquote. Women are madly madly attracted to the dark triad traits, short term and medium term fuck buddies galore, but it usually doesnt last long term.
Ive built harems where my harems had harems on dark triad strategies alone, but eventually women will self select off the ride. One of my exes said I was so addictive that she had to go to therapy and get a perscription to get over me. She dates a really nice beta fag now. Makes him wear condoms, but still barebacks me once and a while. She sees me as breeding stock and him as provider material. But still, in the long term, dark triad is really only going to get you mad laid. I guess I take it to a bit of an extreme though. In moderation it can probably be sustainable. Im trying a variation of that right now, but its too early to gauge results.
EDIT - In other words, Alpha does fuck, but eventually she wants the beta bucks
© TheRedArchive 2024. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
[–]rexregnum 10 points11 points12 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]blazingblue16 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]blazingblue16 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]JohnPeel 13 points14 points15 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 3 points4 points5 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]JohnPeel 3 points4 points5 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]JohnPeel 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]unsungman2 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]blinkyone 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]BIG_Daddy_Government 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sunny_McJoyride 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Hidrosiss 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]zionController 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]vivalaredpill 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]1mrust 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]zionController -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan[S] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]zionController 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link