CMV: A lot of women's experiences being hit on / harassed by dudes come from the fact that men are still expected to make the first move and be persistent.

treestars96 · 2019-07-03T16:24:33+00:00

In college, quite a few girls give me the usual stare, smile, or try to be in my vision. Even had one know my whole schedule around campus for 2 semesters from stalking. Could she have just talked to me?? Yes yes she could have talked to me and i would have taken that as a compliment

Taipanshimshon · 2019-07-03T14:19:05+00:00

Straight Women opining on what it's like to approach women is a little like sheep playing wolf.

Funny but someone's gonna get injured.

madmadG · 2019-07-04T05:39:03+00:00

And herein lies the absolute hypocrisy of #metoo. Men are not supposed to act “creepy” which by the way is defined by the girl.

And yet the men are supposed to initiate and bridge from acquaintance to love-interest which is by definition, an awkward situation to begin with.

And at no point does the feminist metoo crowd suggest that they initiate 50% of the time and take the risk of absolute embarrassment.

Insane. #Metoo is absolute bs.

flamingoinghome · 2019-07-03T16:14:38+00:00

Look, I really don't think harassers are that stupid. The guys I spoke of in the other thread, hollering "suck my dick" out their car window? They were not "initiating" anything. They did not think this would lead to their getting a date or getting laid. That was never even the point.

Ditto, I think, the guys who send unsolicited dick pics, or "do u do anal" DMs. These men do not think the women will respond with delight and sexual desire. These men are exhibitionists. It's not about making moves of any kind.

TheoremaEgregium · 2019-07-03T13:43:14+00:00

I don't think so. If initiating was women's job, they wouldn't do it with all men. I don't subscribe to RP's notion that only the absolute top of men have a chance but in any case there would be a percentage that would never get picked. Since those guys would resent being invisible and forgotten by the world of humans (just like they are now) they would do the same things to get a reaction, any reaction out of women.

Who-initiates-with-who is a question for people who are in the game. Then again, perhaps some of those people also engage in cat-calling? Do successful men also do it? If so, that might become rarer. But the behavior of the have-nothings wouldn't change a lot.

Gravel_Roads · 2019-07-03T13:38:43+00:00

I think it's less the approach and more the potential forthcoming awkwardness/hostility that she then has to be stuck mopping up afterwards

sublimemongrel · 2019-07-03T14:18:13+00:00

Expects to be the initiators does not mean expected to cross clear boundaries or be inappropriate or gross or whatever. There’s a line here. You may be right that some guys genuinely don’t understand that line but let’s be real here - plenty do and simply don’t care. I’m a woman and I’ve made the first move before and it didn’t involve anything like grabbing on some stranger inappropriately or repeatedly pushing someone after they’ve said no.

You guys always make it seem like women being more passive than men is some sort of huge privilege we should all be grateful men make up for but men typically want sex from all sorts of women more than vice versa so what do you expect? If she wants a relationship - casual sex or otherwise - with a specific man I agree she could do more than just sit around and wait. But by and large the number of men who hit on you will greatly outnumber the amount of men you legit want these relationships with.

[deleted] · 2019-07-03T19:09:35+00:00

If what you're doing ain't illegal, just be like Nike and fucking do the damn thing.

Men are a lot better off when free from worrying about shame, which is the only form of social control available for that which is not prohibited by law.

Why is embarrassment such a big deal? Those strangers observing from the side aren't gonna suck that dick so fuck em, fuck their standards, and fuck their control.

Groping (and in some places catcalling) = illegal. Definitely both are ineffective. Why bother?

Taking your shot and asking a girl out = not illegal yet. Neither is persistence (we're not talking about following them I assume).

The end

Here4thebeer3232 · 2019-07-03T13:57:22+00:00

1) This view ignores the posts from many women here who said men were harassing them/stalking them at young age. Several here said they noticed the behavior as young as 12. And one said a man tried to lure her away with him when she was 5. That indicates a problem far more dark than simply men expected to make the first move.

2) Women do in fact make the first move. I've seen it happen a lot. It just doesnt happen to you. But that doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

happycheese86 · 2019-07-03T15:55:26+00:00

Lesbians find love and partners.

_derekhawkins · 2019-07-03T14:47:51+00:00

if women learned to be more proactive

I guarantee you the slutty women out there (I was one of them before I got married) are quite proactive. I hit on guys, got rejected here and there. The most awkward one was when a guy took me out to eat to tell me he wasn't interested in me... that was embarrassing and I wanted to crawl into a hole and die. Guys, don't do this, lol.

There are definitely some women that expect the guy to do all the asking out of course, they tend to be more traditional types.

CainPrice · 2019-07-03T14:24:32+00:00

Men who feel this way don't understand that women very much do make "moves". The just do it the girl way.

When you look across the bar and a girl makes eye contact with you, smiles, is leaning forward so you can see her clevage, holds your gaze for a second, then goes back to talking to her friend, she wants you to come over and hopes you don't say anything too stupid because she wants to fuck you. If you don't walk over, she'll have to give another guy that look because you're either not interested or you're a timid weirdo who doesn't know the game.

Now obviously, not every woman is going to see you and give you a clear signal that she's okay to be hit on, and it's still okay to try your luck. But now it's on you to have social skills and read body language.

If you say hi to a woman and she says two words or less back, doesn't smile, doesn't make good eye contact, and ends the interaction as quickly as possible, and you walk away, she is -not- going to feel harassed and cry rape. You're just some dude who said hi.

It's when a guy with shitty social skills, or maybe a guy who watched too many movies and thinks that persistence gets the girl, doesn't pick up on the fact that she's trying to signal non-interest with her poor eye contact, short responses, and lack of engagement in the conversation and just keeps going and going until she's forced to directly reject him.

There are no mind games here. Women aren't tricking men. Women are really, really clear with their signals, but we've entered a strange time where many men with bad social skills and too much screen time grew up completely isolated from women - no dates, no girlfriends, no sex - and just don't have a clue how to read these very, very clear signals.

poppy_blu · 2019-07-03T21:15:17+00:00

Women don’t sit back and just wait. A woman who wants a quality man needs to apply girl game. Attractive/high SMV men have their pick. If you aren’t high SMV yourself, you need to stand out. And even then if you want the highest SMV man you can get as a high SMV woman (cause you know we’re hypergamous), you still need to stand out.

I get how from the beta orbiter perspective it seems like women just sit back, but believe me we don’t.

The truth is there are women who will approach in the traditionally masculine sense but they tend to be the type of women that the socially anxious women-should-approach types don’t want. Eg, lower SMV end men who don’t want to date lower SMV end women and bristle at the idea that they don’t really have much choice.

RadChadswell · 2019-07-03T13:42:36+00:00

No, it's because autistic men lack the social skills to know how to make a move in a confident but non-harassing way.

wekacuck · 2019-07-03T13:37:22+00:00

It comes from the fact that it works sometimes. If women never responded favorably, nobody would do it. It's an intermittent reinforcement.

SouthernOhioRedsFan · 2019-07-03T19:29:00+00:00

The solution to all this awkwardness is for women to A) expect to be approached constantly, and never have a bad attitude about it, B) reject explicitly rather than through hints or subtlety (what are those?).

Ltrfsn · 2019-07-03T21:47:17+00:00

But they thrive in the confusion

HossMcDank · 2019-07-04T08:45:24+00:00

What's to change about a view that is self-evident? This is as controversial as saying rain makes things wet.

CuriousOptimistic · 2019-07-03T15:17:43+00:00

Even your title presupposes "hit on / harassed" is basically the same thing, and nobody can tell the difference. There is some gray area, but the vast majority of both genders knows the difference.

This is like saying that rape comes from the fact that people have sex.

DopeMeme_Deficiency · 2019-07-03T15:40:56+00:00

The two rules clause is in effect.

Rule 1: be attractive.

Rule 2: don't be ugly.

So long as you follow these two rules, it will literally NEVER be perceived as creepy for you to approach/ hit on a woman.

Break either rule, and watch out... Creeper

KikiYuyu · 2019-07-03T17:42:26+00:00

Making the first move doesn't mean you ask a teenage girl you just met to come home with him because he knows how to "make girls really happy". That was my first experience with that kind of thing.

I'm sure a good portion is from what you say, but some of it is definitely just sickos.

wotsittoyou · 2019-07-03T16:17:21+00:00

No dude, we don't have that expectation of you, we are just fine if you don't. Left well enough alone we'd gradually amp up our indicators of interest until they were unmistakable and equivalent to direct approaches.

You have that expectation of you, because you want more women, better women and you want them quicker than just leaving well enough alone will give you. Stop blaming that on women, that's all down to you.

CamoWoobie10000 · 2019-07-03T16:13:24+00:00

A lot of harassment isnt actually done as a "first move". Its done as a "Fuck you, im going to sexualize you without your consent, bitch".

Basically I want to start by saying there is a difference between a genuine come on that turns into harassment via persistence and harassment that wasnt a genuine come on and was simply meant to be sexual and threatening and they should be talked about seperately. The latter would probably happen a bit less because more men would probably be fufilled, but I think the bigger (albeit nothing major) change would be on the former.

Its not an "all or nothing" like some people in the comments are viewing it as. In my opinion, if women did all of the approaching I think interest would be even more concentrated at the top.

If it was more towards a 50/50 split (which right now id say its closer to a 99/1 split accounting for the fact that there are plently of guys who ask out 100s or even thousands of women) then I think we would see things more equally distributed. At least the guys in the middle would be getting a bit more interest so they wouldnt be having to spam for a mate as often. The guys towards the bottom will still probably rarely if ever get interest so theyre kind of forced to make a move to have a chance.

Or maybe im wrong, maybe if initiating is considered socially acceptable for women theyd be even more brazen in their Chad chasing and the top 20-40% of men would be much better off than now while the bottom 60%-80% are even worse off.

meomeowmeoww · 2019-07-03T14:18:51+00:00

A lot of women's experiences being hit on / harassed by dudes come from the fact that men are still expected to make the first move and be persistent

lol no. Men get horny and want sex so they will try to get sex.

Orange_Paisley · 2019-07-03T16:11:48+00:00

Yeah, I don’t expect men I don’t know to make any moves. Get to know me and have a conversation with me first. Otherwise I’m just thinking “what are you doing?” and wondering how to extract myself.

toasterchild · 2019-07-03T17:40:32+00:00

It just goes along with the old saying. You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

Sometimes people will get annoyed with something you did, it's a fact. As long as you aren't hurting anyone try not to let it bother you. If every girl you every hit on has gotten creeped out maybe you should reevaluate something but if it's only random now or then is probably them or just a bad mix.

Mattcwu · 2019-07-03T21:12:17+00:00

Low quality men need to accept that they are going to be single and will only get laid very rarely.

katymarx · 2019-07-04T17:42:24+00:00

Even if more women begin to make the first move, they aren't going to be hitting on you. Yeah you know who you are. This entire discussion is baseless.

[deleted] · 2019-07-04T19:45:40+00:00

Lots of women are moving away from mind games, but when women say "Well I want a guy to find a way to ask for my consent verbally" there's pushback from the old guard. I get it. I was a teen in the 90s, I was directly taught "grab something, she'll tell you if she wants you to stop" as how dating and escalating physical touch was done. It was all fucking stupid and yeah competent communication (like is taught in therapy) is necessary and our society isn't structured to teach people how to have real critical conversations about heavy emotional content in a rational productive way.

You say most women, no I think that depends on age. Maybe if you're dating gen xers or millenials over 30? Women under 30 by and large don't want sexual touch that isn't invited first.

You see women's experience as "Waiting for things to come to them" because you do not understand their experience and project what you are afraid they're thinking over it. Women often want to make the move but are anxious about the consequences. "What will he think? Will he think I just want sex if I have it now? Will he respect my consent in the moment and not do things I tell him not to? If I don't make him wait will I hear from him tomorrow? Will he judge me if I show him how horny *I* am?"

You see women to some degree or another like mustachioed villains sitting there mustache twirling while "normal guys" run around in circles confused.

[deleted] · 2019-07-19T20:08:48+00:00

(Ignore, can’t look it up on reddit so I have to make a link for myself) r/theredpill

diogenesofthejungle · 2019-07-20T08:15:13+00:00

Cat calling is just a really ineffective way to hit on someone.

H8CourtshipALot217 · 2019-07-25T01:17:32+00:00

yup, what is the logic behind why it makes a guy look weak in a womans eyes if he can't gather the courage to go talk to her, approach her? does it imply he would be weak to protect her? or other things?

LRhodes1107 · 2019-07-28T01:58:03+00:00

I’d get that, but if after you’ve made the first move I say no, please go away.
Do you really think driving around the corner again so you can slow down and ask me to get in with you is gonna work better the fifth time than the third?
Do you think calling me a slut or bitch online is gonna make me rethink not going out with you when I’m already in a relationship? Has anyone ever actually responded positively to an unsolicited dick pick?
Men’s creepiness is not my fault, or my responsibility.

TheAbominableShowman · 2019-10-15T01:05:59+00:00

Yea we live in a society that pitches directly conflicting messages in relation to women.

Animalcrossing4eva · 2019-12-15T21:59:42+00:00

The one time my mother was sexually assaulted was the one time she asked the guy on the date. She told me to never ask a guy out because he will think you want to fuck.

khaste · 2019-12-24T07:02:00+00:00

Its only unwanted approaches if they arent attractive

kurwajebanamac · 2019-07-03T14:26:41+00:00

I disagree, women are being catcalled and hit on by dudes because they dress themselves in a way that provokes dudes to catcall them and hit on them.

[deleted] · 2019-07-03T14:29:04+00:00

It's just women playing mind games. The men that could be accused of it are 1. Only doing it because it's the only thing that harvests results.
2. Only doing it because women start the games.

f0e_paw · 2019-07-03T16:31:31+00:00

Women do not like to put themselves out there like that because they're not used to getting rejected.

Women are used to, sitting on that furry fish and waiting for "the right guy" to come by.

As a guy just keep putting yourself out there and ask women out, do it with confidence and the right amount of arrogance (be righteous). As a guy you have more to offer then she does. It's a numbers game the more you ask the better chances you will get a girl.

Check out Patrice O'Neal, he has some great insights on women and relationships.

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kermitisaman · 2019-07-03T15:24:06+00:00

In term of being persistent, it's because there are women that respond to this. There are women that will "give up" and let you have sex with them. These people are real and they are numerous.

If a horny male has to choose between getting laid by acting mildly morally inappropriate, guess what he's going to choose?

SevenDrunkMidgets · 2019-07-03T15:54:44+00:00

The problem starts when guys approach women who don't give them clear IOIs first. If a girl really likes you, you don't have to be persistent, and if she is extroverted/confident she'll make the first move.

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wtknight · 2019-07-03T17:59:05+00:00

I don’t think men are expected to be persistent by women. They are expected to be assertive, but not persistent. They are expected by women to be persistent in other aspects of their life, like their jobs, perhaps, but not when approaching women and dealing with rejection.

suuperchunk · 2019-07-04T02:46:26+00:00

saying “hey, i think you’re really pretty and i’d like your number” will get you a “no thanks” at worst. saying “you look like you could suck a golf ball through a garden hose baby” will get a drink thrown on you. you can be consistently assertive, get rejected, and never be accused of creepy - it’s all about how overtly sexual you’re being on the very first pass imo

rasmelo · 2019-07-04T04:54:13+00:00

It's not mind games. We want to get to know you first.

skatefasteatass666 · 2019-07-04T21:31:34+00:00

harassment is when they don’t stop. fuck outta here.

Bntt89 · 2019-07-05T18:12:27+00:00

It wouldn't really change much unless you only want women to approach. And the truth is guys are kinda creepy. But tbh I think a lot of women just say guys they dont like are creepy.

JezebeltheQueen5656 · 2019-07-06T12:45:27+00:00

load of crap but typical for males; it's always easier to shift the blame and responsibility to women than to accept most males are creepy assholes.

no, women shouldnt be more proactive, males should have some basic level of decency and manners. piss off with your anti-women rhetoric. males are the only responsible party in every harassment case.

males should fcking police themselves, not women.

Title	CMV: A lot of women's experiences being hit on / harassed by dudes come from the fact that men are still expected to make the first move and be persistent.
Author	SlashCo80
Upvotes	279
Comments	289
Date	July 3, 2019 1:24 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/c8o241/cmv_a_lot_of_womens_experiences_being_hit_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-a-lot-of-womens-experiences-being-hit-on.255093 https://theredarchive.com/post/255093