Is it me or is there a disconnect between what men think women want and what they actually want?

-TheGreasyPole- · 2019-02-23T12:04:47+00:00

OK,

So here's where I'm going to argue...

Getting fit/healthy is fine but bodybuilding is useless as the majority of bodybuilders aren't womanisers in any way.

The goal isn't to be a body builder, nor is the fact that most actual bodybuilders aren't womanizers relevant.

Women are attracted to lots of things, one of them is a very masculine body shape. The "inverted triangle" or broad shoulders and chest, and narrow waist.

Lifting helps give you that body shape. It also has other benefits, it raises your testosterone which gives you more confidence, and it also acts as a "discipline check" for RP. If the guy won't do the first basic thing RP asks them to do (lift) then talking to him about other things is a waste of time, he'll ignore that advice too.

So, you're misidentifying that lifting doesn't get you chicks. It does. Even if you're aiming more for "underwear model on the cover of vogue" than you are for "mighty beast on the cover of bodybuilders monthly".

Even obsession about money/career/success is not actually helpful.

Money, not so much.... career success, very much so. The primary thing women are sexually attracted to is status. It's up there as an equivalent to "facial attractiveness" for women (but not for men)... This is a well known scientific result...

http://web.simmons.edu/~turnerg/MCC/Matechoice2PDF.pdf

Research conducted throughout the world strongly supports the position that women prefer marriage partners who are culturally successful or have the potential to become culturally successful. The most extensive of these studies included 10,000 people in 37 cultures across six continents and five islands (Buss, 1989). On the mate choice survey, women rated “good financial prospect” higher than did men in all cultures. In 29 samples, the “ambition and industriousness” of a prospective mate were more important for women than for men, presumably because these traits are indicators of his reproductive potential---that is, his ability to eventually achieve cultural success. Hatfield and Sprecher (1995) found the same pattern for college students in the United States, Japan, and Russia. In each culture, women valued a prospective mates’ potential for success, earnings, status, and social position more highly than did men

meta-analysis of research published from 1965 to 1986 revealed the same sex difference (Feingold, 1992). Across studies, 3 out of 4 women rated socioeconomic status as more important in a prospective marriage partner than did the average man. Studies conducted prior to 1965 showed the same pattern (e.g., R. Hill, 1945) as did a more recent survey of a nationally representative sample of unmarried adults in the United States (Sprecher, Sullivan, & Hatfield, 1994). Across age, ethnic status, and socioeconomic status, women preferred husbands who were better educated than they were and who earned more money than they did. Buunk and colleagues found the same pattern for women ranging in age from their 20s to their 60s (Buunk, Dijkstra, Fetchenhauer, & Kenrick, 2002). This preference is highlighted when women make cost-benefit trade-offs between a marriage partner's cultural success and other important traits, such as his physical attractiveness (Li, Bailey, Kenrick, & Linsenmeier, 2002; Waynforth, 2001). When women are forced to make such trade-offs, a prospective marriage partner’s cultural success is rated as a necessity and other characteristics as a luxury.

.

To me, the "women upmost desire successful/competent men" is a meme.

Science says you're wrong. It may be a meme too. But it is also extremely reflective of actual female desires as measured, and even as reported anecdotally round here... speak to the girls here, they're perfectly willing to explain that "Yeah, that guy who is a lawyer and wears a nice suit and drives a nice car is more attractive to me than his twin-brother the burger flipper driving his beater and wearing cut-off jean shorts and a T".

I'm defining success based on career/financial accomplishments (which the world glorifies).

Well, you have to be careful munging these two things together as the same thing. They're not...

The status is sexually attractive irrespective of money. Think a penniless poet, or an army officer (who is not well paid, but high status).

The money is relationship attractive irrespective of status. Think an ugly schlub who wins the lottery. No more sexually attractive than yesterday, still an ugly schlub, but now much more attractive as a hubby candidate because he has millions.

If successful men were most attractive to women where are all the Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk worshippers at? Zuck? Even Donald Trump, the most powerful man in the world (on paper, not in reality).

Well, I don't think any of those guys are short beautiful women who will sleep with them. I don't think "getting laid" are among their problems. Bezo's just got his affair publicised. Musk seems to have lots of girls floating in and out. Trump is just getting too fucking old, when younger he had the same.

Think of all those potato shaped politicians who have affairs with young and sexy interns. Why are the interns interested ? Because they're attracted to charisma, and power and status which high-level politicians have in spades... and that makes them attractive even if they look like Newt Gingrich (known "young intern affair count" 3 and probably plenty of others we don't know about).

That unemployed good looking party boy that sells/does ecstasy actually has more SMV than an investment banker that banks tonnes of money but still isn't attractive to women.

Well, possibly yes. Because for females attraction is additive across lots of traits. 10-20 depending on how you count.

You've identified party boy as being high in at least 5 of those traits (looks, social proof, risk-taking behaviour, youth, dominance). You've identified the banker as being high in one (status) and low in another (looks).

Perhaps the party boy does therefore come out ahead. That doesn't mean status is not attractive.

If you took your unemployed party boy... and instead made him "a medical student" (status incoming....) he would be more attractive to women than your version of him. Make him an actual doctor party boy, but leave all else equal, and he's more attractive still.

But my point is that a lot of manosphere self improvement advice is actually useless if your entire goal is getting laid.

It isn't. You assumed away the things that make it useful, just basically assuming that those things don't work.

They do work, your assumptions are in error.

EDIT: Some spellings.

KikiYuyu · 2019-02-23T17:46:29+00:00

It's not just you. So many RP guys think they know it all. They think women literally get wet over status.

Planetof12 · 2019-02-23T12:29:58+00:00

I always hear women say they're attracted to X and go with Y. I keep hearing "I'm not into skinny guys" by women who always date incredibly skinny guys (anorexic look).

Power is not enough. Is it respectable power? There's a big difference between a prison warden and a DJ. Both control the social situation, but the DJ (rave culture specifically) is RESPECTED. He's viewed as achieving something that makes him worthy of his position. The prison warden doesn't necessarily inspire that respect in people.

Guys with no career can be big womanizers because they manage to come off as successful DESPITE not having a career.

MMDT · 2019-02-23T12:00:57+00:00

There's a disconnect between what women think women want and what they actually want

Since it is impossible to change your face, height, frame and race (at least not without surgery), theredpill advice is useful for people to change things that can actually be changed.

You're right, a tall handsome tanned man will always be more attractive than a short, ugly, dark skinned Indian man. But you can't exactly tell him "just be taller and more attractive and white". That's useless advice. So the advice TRP gives is advice that can actually be acted on.

Bodybuilding WILL nudge your SMV. Having "game" WILL nudge your SMV. Getting money WILL nudge your SMV.

If a man was naturally attractive to women he wouldn't be looking for advice on women in the first place. TRP advice is best suited for mid-tier men, whose genetics are neither a blessing or a curse. TRP advice could well shift him from a 5 to a 7.

This thread is very dumb.

rpsheepdog · 2019-02-23T11:34:01+00:00

The RP is a two sided coin, but yes it is rooted in sexual strategy

Some guys need help with the actual mechanics of getting girls (the PUA/Seduction side). They have the ability to meet them or are good looking but awkward and need advice on how to take it to the next level.

Other guys get to TRP because they want to just even be visible to women. That side of the coin is the one that emphasizes actual self improvement. You gotta value yourself first.

That being said, IMO, the advice given on TRP really is geared for men to men, when women read it its not pretty, but it is packaged for the male mind to interpret and then put into action

says_harsh_things · 2019-02-23T13:43:53+00:00

I think the disconnect between the oft repeated platitudes that women give to dismiss people, like "I just want a guy thats nice" or "I like nerdy guys" and then go show behavior that belies their original statement causes men to not trust anything women say about the subject. So when women speak the truth, they are not believed.

statusincorporated · 2019-02-23T18:54:47+00:00

You're relying on exceptions to the rule to make your case, which makes it weak.

Super fit/bodybuilder types are more attractive to women than the average male.

Guys with high status/income are more attractive to women than the average male.

You're arguing that there are no guarantees in life- --- having those attributes (even being good looking) won't guarantee success, but it will greatly increase the odds of success.

Sure, there are homeless men who can get laid easily --- they're, again, the EXCEPTION.

Taking your party boy example. How long do you think a good looking party boy can run that lifestyle successfully without taking a hit to his looks, provided he doesn't have much money? It isn't long.

The investment banker has MONEY that he can use to make himself more attractive to women, via surgery, personal trainer, cosmetics, suits, etc.

So you're arguing that the existence of outliers invalidates the norm --- which is a weak argument.

oj109 · 2019-02-23T15:18:16+00:00

Women care about how men make them feel.

An attractive man is enjoyable to look at and of course, she’ll feel more sexually excited - so she'll feel lucky every time she looks at him and feel proud when she talks about him with her friends - so she'll enjoy the experience of her relationship with him more.

Women also like a kind man who is present and listens to her. And treats her with kindness (and being kind as in genuinely caring for her while being respectful by maintaining boundaries, rather than desperate obsequiousness)

The superficial stuff like money, status, bad boy behavior, career prospects etc are also bonuses. A woman doesn't go off this alone, nor does she go off by the above characteristics alone either.

It really is that simple.

Almondxxx · 2019-02-23T12:49:43+00:00

where are all the ... Elon Musk worshippers at?

There are actually quite a few of those around. Same with Steve Jobs even now he's been dead for ages. Plenty of people do worship CEO's and turn them into icons and treat them as rolemodels.

I myself am quite a fan of Felix Dennis.

LeJacquelope · 2019-02-23T12:04:21+00:00

I've never, ever heard of a rich man who didn't have women chasing him.

Willow-girl · 2019-02-23T12:33:31+00:00

Women want men who serve their imperatives. The reason this is so difficult to pin down is because different women have different needs and priorities -- i.e., one wants a good father figure for her children; another just wants a good dicking-down.

SoundProofHead · 2019-02-23T12:49:17+00:00

That's because evolutionary psychology is not the answer to every relationship question. Game theory is not either. TRP thinks biological determinism is the absolute truth. Do you really think, somehow, after thousands of years, we've found the truth and answer to how people live together?

Also women are as confused as men. We're all lost.. But sometimes, a man and woman will find that their convictions about what makes a good partner will align. If it's overconfidence on their part, it won't work on the long term meaning that they haven't found themselves yet. If it happens to be what they're really about, it will work. But most of the time, people are still on the path of self discovery. Finding someone that's roughly at the same place as you on the path of self discovery is tough for many reasons and oversimplifying people's inner workings, although reassurring, can be counterproductive.

Five_Decades · 2019-02-23T14:04:55+00:00

Is OP a woman or a man. Granted, even if OP is a woman she doesn't automatically speak for all 4 billion women on earth.

My understanding is that it was an accepted fact that men and women have certain generic traits they prefer when looking for a mate.

For women it'd be things like good health, resources, reliability, etc. It also depends on whether the woman is looking for short term or long term mating (traits that are a positive for one can be a negative for the other).

But anyway, guys aren't looking to become bodybuilders to attract women. A guy with an extra 20-30 lbs of muscle is generally the ideal to women. Guys in crossfit, swimmers, etc are the kind of guys that women prefer. I don't think most red pillers want to look like Kai Greene.

Also success is important to a mans SMV. However if a woman isn't physically attracted to a successful guy, she will never value him or respect him as a human being. That sounds like a hellishly miserable, transactional relationship for the man.

But anyway, attraction is multi faceted. A guy who thinks a degree as an engineer will automatically get him a woman is wrong (not only that, but the kinds of women who would go for a guy like that are probably gold digging single mothers).

reluctantly_red · 2019-02-23T16:03:59+00:00

they think their engineering job will make them a stud.

OP obviously hasn't read any of the actual RP. A central tenet of TRP is that guys have been lied to. That they've been told to be a good boy, go to school, go to college, get a good job, and happiness -- including women -- will follow. Coming to the realization that women don't give a shit about your work ethic, that women don't care about the cool things you've learned along the way, and women aren't the least big interested in the exiting projects you're working on is part-and-parcel of taking TRP.

TRP knows damn well an engineering job is not what gets a guy laid.

ScootsScoots · 2019-02-23T17:53:09+00:00

The thing is, these things wont help if you're still a spergy weirdo. These things are supposed to help you become less of an autistic. Problem is, most guys follow the list of shit then still have no social circle because they use career and exercise to avoid working on the hard part.....their personality.

lehappyjuice · 2019-02-23T18:53:22+00:00

Basically you agreed with the blackpill phylosopy.

Women only care for your genetics (top 10% chads).

And then if they want a betabucks they value status and economical power mixed with beta traits that will assure her that the betabuck will actually spend his money on her.

So basically what wymen want is top 10% alphas that gives them tingles, nothing more nothing less

cxj · 2019-02-23T20:41:05+00:00

The disconnect is between what redpill men are saying women want based on personal experience and observation and what women want the public image of what they want to be.

SirNemesis · 2019-02-24T02:42:58+00:00

Funny, I would have called this a major RP tenet:

>Guys with no career prospects (who you'd define as losers) can sometimes be the biggest womanisers. That unemployed good looking party boy that sells/does ecstasy actually has more SMV than an investment banker that banks tonnes of money but still isn't attractive to women.

You're right though. TRP seems to have weirdly focused on lifting, stem careers, etc., even the that is the opposite of what RP bloggers like Heartiste and Rollo advocated.

SupremeMystique · 2019-02-24T07:08:20+00:00

I disagree that bodybuilders don't get pussy that's false.

People with aesthetic physiques get laid. No doubt.

MisterJose · 2019-02-24T16:39:05+00:00

I would have put it the other way: There's a disconnect between what women say they want and what they actually want. TRP tries to answer what they actually want, and it's not terrible on some points, although it falls into the same trap that every self-help cult does of trying to turn things into some all-encompassing ideology that promises all the answers.

Boldness and self-confidence do not fall out of the sky. Sure, there are some guys out there willing and able to go into a bar and lie their guts out to get banged that night, but for most guys, their outside persona has to be derived from something real inside. So: Go work out, go achieve, go find real things to be confident in yourself about. This is hardly bad advice IMO. It's not that the achievement must be attractive, it's that knowing in your core that you're a person who's achieved makes you more attractive.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2019-02-23T15:18:55+00:00

The disconnect you're seeing is between what women SAY they want with their useless mouth words and what men observe that women actually fuck with their vagenes

Kapla5053 · 2019-02-23T12:31:21+00:00

I absolutely agree with OP.

Yes, red pill helps to a certain extent, but if you want to get a quality women (and not just some hot piece of ass), you need to develop your mind towards maturity and competence.

That being said, red pill is a good starting ground. Hopefully it will get you into a momentum towards self development and maturity beyond red pill to become purple pill.

says_harsh_things · 2019-02-23T13:05:26+00:00

It's in general hilarious listening to men when they tell me (a woman) what I want.

The party boy is attractive for the girls who have similar lifestyle. No need to mention people (men and women) who have this kind of lifestyle tend to be more sexually open. That's the reason why the party boys get laid more often.

EquivalentPainter · 2019-02-23T12:27:23+00:00

My (female) perspective: 1. Women want tall, muscular - in short: manly - men. Just as men want women with big boobs, nice butts and tiny waists.

But women also go for men with money and status. Why? Who does not want to enjoy the benefits of wealth without working a day for it. But, and here I go highly subjective: Those relationships are always sugar daddy style to me. Men get sex and a hot woman to present, while women get handbags and penthouses and publicity in exchange.

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TheBookOfSeil · 2019-02-23T12:58:43+00:00

Not really, no.

Some guys legitimately don’t know but those are the guys who don’t know women that well.

rus9384 · 2019-02-23T13:39:02+00:00

Well, there even is a comedy film on the topic, so the answer is quite obvious.

I didn't see that TRP actually says bodybuilding is the go. Quite no, many women are just attracted to fit guys, not those obsessed on gym. Money, career and success is something referring to "bucks" which is a beta thing, not alpha, according to AF/BB.

WhatIsTheMeaningHere · 2019-02-23T14:07:03+00:00

obvious

We know what influences attraction,

an investment banker that banks tonnes of money but still isn't attractive to women

nonsense.

[deleted] · 2019-02-23T16:31:02+00:00

Lol this is one of the biggest trash posts I’ve ever seen

[deleted] · 2019-02-23T18:08:22+00:00

If successful men were most attractive to women where are all the Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk worshippers at? Zuck? Even Donald Trump, the most powerful man in the world (on paper, not in reality).

Elon Musk was married to a beautiful woman, he then dated an actress and now he's dating a hot indie music producer.

Zuck is married to a woman way out of his league.

Jeff Bezos wasn't exactly married to an obese divorcee either.

DXBrigade · 2019-02-23T21:15:30+00:00

What matter the most are looks and social skills, the rest is secondary. Money matters too but not as much as the former two.

blackedoutfast · 2019-02-23T21:36:35+00:00

TRP doesn't endorse weight lifting just for improving looks, it also helps a man become more confident, disciplined, and focused which are also attractive traits. and if a guy is natty, he won't ever get that unattractive too muscley look. pro bodybuilders look like they do because they all juice hardcore.

re:money there are a lot of dumbass betas on TRP who try to twist RP in a way that allows them to imagine that they are alpha af while continuing to be hardworking dopey betas. women will fuck guys with money, but being rich by itself won't make a guy more sexually attractive. money drops panties but it doesn't make them wet. and sometimes money can hurt a guy because women may put on their good girl relationship mode mask around him.

but money can help a guy be more alpha and sexy indirectly. if you have more money you can afford to have interesting experiences and travel and party hard and have interesting/exciting hobbies and shit like that

OfSpock · 2019-02-23T22:18:09+00:00

Men hear what they want to. I told a man I found Denzel Washington hot once and his reply was "So you like black guys now"

Um, no actually. Why would you go with black over 'very handsome'.

Similarly, when women say they want a nice guy, they do not add "nice is the only attribute I care about, he could be an overweight Nazi but as long as he's nice I will date him" because what they mean is "someone like the guys I've been dating but nice as well".

reluctantly_red · 2019-02-23T22:39:15+00:00

Men can't comprehend (some) women don't make partner choices based on attraction. Rich old ugly men are not attractive. They're not a turn on. They're a logical choice.

The type of men I find attractive vs the type I'm going to marry is probably different.

Talkytalktalk · 2019-02-23T22:45:16+00:00

so what advice do you give? be understanding and listen better?

[deleted] · 2019-02-24T00:22:39+00:00

I think the disconnect between what men think we want vs what we want is in the social aspect of trp. Boiling everything down to a shit/comfort test to "pass" to get laid seems pretty easy. But it doesn't teach men that women can very often tell if you're in her space strictly to get in her pants. All the test passing and "Amused Mastery" or "Agree and Amplify" in the world isn't going to hide the intentions of a man who is incapable of calibrating to the stage and progress of an interaction or relationship.

SDW137 · 2019-02-24T01:50:05+00:00

Doing those things will make it more likely that a guy who has nothing else going for him will attract a woman. It won't make his face a 10/10 or make him have "good game," but it isn't meant to. Having those things makes the guy better off than he was before. He won't be on the same level as a guy who's attractive, fit, wealthy, and has good game, that would just be silly. There are just some things that you can't change, and the RP doesn't try to change those things. PUA focus on a guy's behavior, or "game," which can somewhat be changed.

SupremeMystique · 2019-02-24T02:03:36+00:00

What women say they want: Funny, interesting, charismatic, kind.

What women actually want: Tall, broad shoulders, white, strong jaw, hyper-masculine.

What women settle with: Wealthy.

reluctantly_red · 2019-02-24T06:41:40+00:00

No you don't need to be alpha to attract women. Terps don't say that. Maybe incels, not terps. Wrong on the very first premise

AceFlashheart · 2019-02-26T18:00:46+00:00

Obligatory.

Taipanshimshon · 2019-02-23T11:55:01+00:00

If you’re going to ask for discussion try to put your statements out without such glaring bias. It does not invite discussion. Enjoy your circle jerk

wildtimes3 · 2019-02-23T11:39:02+00:00

Ramble on but I think I smell what you’re cooking.

There is a gap w/rp after the self improvement phase before the jacked good partner phase / goal.

The goal of understanding the opposite sex should be increased harmony and goals achieved. Full consent. Always. Take care of yo people

reluctantly_red · 2019-02-23T18:04:57+00:00

Young women are overwhelmingly attracted to asshole hot badboys.

Older women grow up a bit and start compromising, but ultimately if they could find an "asshole hot badboy" who's also a good provider and won't cheat on her, she'd dump her husband in the blink of an eye.

BrokenTurtleShell · 2019-02-23T11:40:38+00:00

This is a really coherent post about something I've been trying to rationalize and out to words for quite some time now. I 100% agree with what you're saying.

squiddy_s550gt · 2019-02-23T16:57:04+00:00

Women say that, but observational reality says otherwise.

I'm a little older so i learned all these lessons on my own before Reddit or even Facebook, (i know right?). I was nethier popular out unpopular in high school. Had one serious gf up until i left for college.

Join ROTC first year of college and starting lifting with other cadets six days a week. Swelled up instantly. Out of the blue, girls starting asking me for my number. Some would literally pull me into bed.

After school i landed a good job. Newer Corvette, brand new bikes. Life got super easy. Getting a gf was zero effort. Even married and engaged chicks would ask me out. (Which really freaked me out)!

The thing trp gets wrong is about the arrogant attitude. It's not the attitude that gets girls. They see these guys being dicks and think that's how they get the girls in the first place. In reality, guys who are dicks simply realize that they can get away with it.

Title	Is it me or is there a disconnect between what men think women want and what they actually want?
Author	BlessedRainsAfrica
Upvotes	59
Comments	312
Date	February 23, 2019 11:22 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/atuiqr/is_it_me_or_is_there_a_disconnect_between_what/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-it-me-or-is-there-a-disconnect-between-what-men.257047 https://theredarchive.com/post/257047