[CMV] It doesn't make sense to shame men for being hurt by women

reluctantly_red · 2018-08-28T17:31:12+00:00

Everyone gets hurt. What defines us is not that we were mistreated, but how we react to mistreatment.

Do you stay humble, look inward, get honest, and try to do things differently? Or do you lash out, assign blame, and retreat?

Also, no one can "shame" you unless you already feel ashamed

sublimemongrel · 2018-08-28T17:52:55+00:00

Some men here think any criticism or negativity at all directed towards TRP or terpers as a group constitutes "shaming". Sometimes, you can make a truly benign comment and someone is gonna get offended and accuse you of "shaming". If you feel shamed because someone makes a random comment not directed at you like "TRPers are just bitter that they've been hurt by women," than I am just not really sure this is sub for you. I learned a long time ago not to take the blanket super negative stereotypes that terpers like to throw out about women personal.

You are right though that such an example would validate the idea that those men have been hurt by women. It's a stereotype of terpers though, not men in general.

yasee · 2018-08-28T17:16:36+00:00

..."pitbulls are dangerous", and you answer "you only say that because you were bitten by one", well, you've just proved my point?

or they've just pointed out a massive source of bias

Shaming people isn't nice period. But pointing out that your negative experiences have potentially distorted your outlook is very much valid

KikiYuyu · 2018-08-28T18:06:10+00:00

Well I'm against shaming generally (I don't mind shaming hypocrisy), but I think it's a good point to bring up that a lot of men have based their opinions off of being hurt. They think their experience validates their opinion and makes them right, but how would they respond to a woman doing the exact same thing? Think of all the hardcore manhaters who use abusive men as validation for their sexism.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-08-28T18:25:54+00:00

Anyone male or female wallowing in having been hurt is a loser and a whiner and I don't care about them or their stupid feelings. Life is suffering people hurt you suck it up move on

nokanjaijo · 2018-08-28T18:12:11+00:00

Let me see if I can get you to understand by switching the genders here.

I know some women who have been very hurt by the men in their lives. They react to this by treating all men as dangerous. They do their level best to manipulate and play power games with the men in their lives in order to get what they want from men without getting hurt in the process.

I find this behavior foolish shameful. This is the weakest, laziest, and most cowardly solution. People who choose solutions like that are infantile to me.

The people I respect are the people with the strength and courage to change themselves in such a way that they are surrounded only by the kinds of people they don't have to manipulate and play games with.

They end up finding a partner who they respect and who fucks them a decent amount. Then they aren't using their mental energy to constantly play petty games in order to fuck or get whatever. They use it to accomplish interesting and fascinating things with their lives.

I am physically incapable of having any respect for people who devote their time and energy to learning how to play petty games with shitty people because they are terrified of getting hurt.

Everything worth doing is a source of great pain in the beginning parts where you make huge mistakes and fail.

It's the people who keep risking pain, keep subjecting themselves to failure and agony, who are awesome. The ones who devote their lives to avoiding pain and choose comfort over real challenge are sad sacks, to the one.

Merger-Arbitrage · 2018-08-28T17:19:51+00:00

I agree, I am pretty sure every mgtow/dark triad/player/etc was once a beta.

What's your definition of beta? Who else is in that category under "etc."?

And at some point they were let down by women, e.g being incel, being cheated on, being broken up with. Myself included. If you do a Q4RP and dudes are honest, I'm sure they will admit it. This has happened to pretty much all manosphere legends (Roissy, Rollo, Roosh)

Most PEOPLE, men or women, have been "let down" romantically in their life. This is a non-point.

However, I fail to see how this criticism affects these men's position. If anything, it only validates it. If I state that "pitbulls are dangerous", and you answer "you only say that because you were bitten by one", well, you've just proved my point? By shaming men for having negative experiences with women, all you're doing is acknowledging that a lot of women really screw the lives of a lot of men, and end up reinforcing their "misogynistic" (more like "defensive") opinions

Your OP is about "men being shamed" for being hurt by women. No one is doing that directly.

Manospherian men are being shamed and shit on for doing a "180" and becoming the asshats who hurt women as a de-facto revenge plot even if the specific women didn't deserve it.

RockinSocksII · 2018-08-28T17:26:25+00:00

Lashing out everyone because I was hurt by one person doesn't make sense.

321PK · 2018-08-28T17:17:27+00:00

Nobody will ever be cured until they stop worrying about “shame.” I swear to God Reddit is obsessed with shame. Being hurt by a person you cared for isn’t exclusive to men. You can let an experience like that define you or you can get on with your life. And stop worrying about shame while you’re doing it.

Aaren_Augustine · 2018-08-28T17:34:04+00:00

I nearly go shot by a chick. Should I be upset and all chicks?

Or would I use it as a reason to act like a shit head to other women? That's what shitty women do. They blame their shitty behavior on others.

You think Roosh or Rollo is justified in their shitty treatment of women because the got huwrt-wurty?

As I say it, a lot of dudes point at the weights and proclaim its the iron's fault that they aren't strong enough to lift them.

DevilishRogue · 2018-08-28T20:41:13+00:00

"TRPers are just bitter that they've been hurt by women!"

I actually agree

Being bitter is not Alpha behavior. Those who understand TRP respect the success that women have in relation to men and avoid scenarios where they could be led to ever feel bitter by applying Red Pill theory. Anyone bitter has failed to accept personal responsibility.

By shaming men for having negative experiences with women, all you're doing is acknowledging that a lot of women really screw the lives of a lot of men, and end up reinforcing their "misogynistic" (more like "defensive") opinions

Shaming is a shit test. A filter applied to remove those who don't deserve to be there because women cannot accurately judge status at a glance in the way men can judge women's appeal.

poppy_blu · 2018-08-28T22:58:51+00:00

They’re not shaming men for being unsuccessful with women. They’re saying it’s not OK to respond to it by lashing out with hate toward an entire gender.

Women are hurt by men too. Does that justify lashing out at men?

I’ve been the victim of racism as a black woman. Does that justify me calling all white people racist?

metropolisapocalypse · 2018-08-28T17:27:42+00:00

What is the purpose of shaming someone for something like this? Of course it doesn't "make sense" as there is little to be gained by anyone for shaming in this context, beyond making someone feel inadequate.

I suppose the most reasonable rationale would be to point out that for many RPers, it's not logic that underlies a RP worldview, but emotional pain and feelings of rejection. Emotional pain can cloud one's ability to analyze objectively the object that caused pain. IME the most zealous red pillers have major difficulty talking a removed lens when it comes to facts or data relating to gender relations, men or women, etc. From these people there tends to be very extreme rejection or even fear of anything that goes against a TRP worldview. That's straight emotional thinking. Straight up shaming and teasing in this context doesn't do much for anyone.

storffish · 2018-08-28T18:58:44+00:00

nobody is shaming anyone for being hurt... if any guys are being shamed it's for cropdusting vast swaths of humanity with their overemotional reaction to one person's behavior and then attempting to construct a worldview around it instead of confronting what that specific woman did and what red flags they missed.

you're right in that an edgelord who fancies himself some kind of "dark triad Chad alpha" and posts a lot about it on the internet is probably, in his own passive way, seeking revenge on some specific woman from his past. but you're wrong that responding to his posturing with "what's her name and how did she hurt you?" is an attempt at shaming him. it's an attempt to suss out the source of what any sane person can tell is a prolonged emotional outburst.

SkookumTree · 2018-08-28T22:48:27+00:00

We aren't shaming men for being hurt by women, we're shaming men for being assholes and blaming that on being hurt by women. It is a human thing, not a TRP thing. Hell, look at manhating radfem u/jezebelthequeen5656: not shaming her for having been hurt by men, but shaming her for her hatred. Which is never a good thing.

goatismycopilot · 2018-08-28T18:30:26+00:00

Here in PPD shaming has been reimagined as disagreeing. So when somebody disagrees with an observation or choice it gets turned into "invalidating" a person's existence or shaming. And it is the terpers who have adopted the counter language of the inclusive neo diversity crowd either ironically or seriously. It isn't always clear to me. PPD is not a male space, TRP is. And in TRP they tell one another to STFU all the time and those same people come here and say REEEEEEEEEE you ar einvalidating me. I have openly said I disagree with that being a new standard here, however, I am not a mod being forced to semi entertain the deluge of wah wah behind the scenes.

[deleted] · 2018-08-28T18:37:47+00:00

However, I fail to see how this criticism affects these men's position. If anything, it only validates it. If I state that "pitbulls are dangerous", and you answer "you only say that because you were bitten by one", well, you've just proven my point?

Replace "pitbull" with "men" and you have the radical feminist argument right there.

madcockatiel · 2018-08-28T20:24:36+00:00

Strangely, many people are hurt by other people of varying demographics every day without becoming keyboard crusaders against all people of that demographic. If every woman who was hurt by a man became a political lesbian, radfem, or other fringe female supremacist, then those people wouldn't seem very crazy or fringe at all because that would be 99% of women. TRPers who are sexists and/or misogynists didn't become that way because a woman was mean to them, they already harbored those beliefs and women being mean to them provided the catalyst for them to either say what they've always felt, or for their benevolent sexism to flip to malevolent sexism. You can have sympathy for people who have been hurt without validating harmful or irrational ways in which they lash out in response.

werefuckinripper · 2018-08-28T23:07:19+00:00

It doesn’t make sense to shame people for being hurt by other people.

It makes sense to shame people for doing shameful things, like body shaming, cheating, lying, harassing, etc.

Why is this even a conversation? People are not this stupid. Come on.

[deleted] · 2018-08-29T14:08:28+00:00

*Dons devil's advocate hat

From a woman's POV I'm pretty sure it makes perfect sense to shame men for being hurt by women. Woman hurts man/rejects man, causing pain. Man feels pain. Man emotes, wears heart on sleeve.

Women (and a lot of men) shame him, tell him to stop emoting about it (feel it but don't emote it and put it out there), buck up, man up, cowboy up, get over it, get past it, and get done what needs done.

Shit happens. You fucked up. She fucked up. You both fucked up. OK. What's done is done. Let's move forward, move on, deal with it, and get past it.

What's different is the purpose of the shaming and who's doing it.

Women shame to (1) identify weak men so said men can be avoided. She doesn't want weak sperm impregnating her; and (2) get her own man moving again so he doesn't get killed, get her killed and get her kids killed A disabled, down man is dangerous to her.

Men shame (the origin of "man up") to get an injured man back on the horse and doing his job again.

"Man up, we need your help, we need you to pull your weight, there's shit that needs done and we need you to do it. We can't carry an injured/disabled/out of commission man on our backs. So pick yourself up, dust yourself off, shake that shit off, and let's get back out there.

She's just a woman. It's just pussy. You'll get another one. in the meantime, you can rub one out on your own time. But for now, the tribe needs your swinging dick back out in the field getting shit done."

Women shame to avoid weak men or get their man going again. Men shame to help each other and get him going again.

flamingoinghome · 2018-08-28T17:31:48+00:00

Your pitbull analogy is flawed. It's more like "dogs are dangerous!"

"You only say that because you saw a snarling guard dog at the junk yard, tried to pet it, and were shocked when it bit!"

"If that dog could bite, so could any dog! Which is why I'm now going to advocate beating any and all dogs into submission with a club!"

"DUDE! The fuck?! That's animal abuse! What kind of sick fuck goes around clubbing random dogs because they made a stupid dog-related decision once in their life?!"

"I used to be like you, once, before I learned the True Nature of Dogs."

InformalCriticism · 2018-08-28T17:37:34+00:00

I'd say it doesn't make sense, but I think the reason it doesn't make sense is only from the male perspective. If you are a female, it makes perfect sense to shame men who are being abused, taken advantage of or exploited, because their perspective is that men are nothing more than means to whatever end their female nature desires, and shaming them is their only recourse to men speaking out.

I mean, liken it to any oppressor afraid of losing their position of power. Like an abusive partner intent on remaining dominant by making the victim believe (s)he is the cause of the abuse.

In other words, it doesn't validate the claims of the victims, it reveals the fact that women recognize their ability to encroach on the rights and freedoms of men may be revoked; they are not denying that these things happen as much as they are attempting to prevent their ability to continue this abuse.

Hystericalprince · 2018-08-28T17:28:20+00:00

It also doesn’t make sense to take out all your anger on them because you were unsuccessful them.

BajaBlast90 · 2018-08-28T21:17:23+00:00

It doesn't make sense to shame men for being hurt by women

Does that mean that we can stop shaming women for being hurt by men? Because I see this all the time here and it's pretty lame you want to bring that double standard out.

How about we scrap the double standard and keep it simple: if you're an adult, you should be held accountable for your actions. You don't deserve sympathy and hand holding because you choose to date selfish toxic people. You reap what you sow. Dont care what gender you are.

Also, as an example for reference, my current partner has been in some past relationships with toxic and Narcissistic women as I have been in relationships with toxic men. He has 0 bitterness, self loathing or misogynist garbage he Carrie's around. Likewise, I'm not a man hating misandrist. You can choose how you feel.

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genethedog · 2018-08-28T21:08:37+00:00

The question is about probability.

If you had a bad experience with one woman, how do you know it’s her femaleness that caused the problem?

largepaycheckaddict · 2018-08-28T22:05:32+00:00

Women just do this crap to satiate their ego when they perceive the man is of higher value than her. If he was lesser value she wouldn’t even care to shame him.

[deleted] · 2018-08-29T07:51:05+00:00

Shaming is all about control.

jkonrad · 2018-08-29T23:37:22+00:00

Nice try, but normal, healthy men do not feel ashamed for being hurt by women. Whatever shame you are feeling, its source is elsewhere.

JezebeltheQueen5656 · 2018-08-30T15:40:00+00:00

yeah right. those males never acknowledge their mistakes that led them to being hurt. nope, they did everything right according to the Book, it's ze evil wimminz fault! hypergamy! awalt!

it takes introspection to see what went wrong and why. and most males have zero self-knowledge.

it is impossible that all of them went trough the exact same crap with women. it's as if they copy-paste each other on their little forums.

something's amiss.

[deleted] · 2018-08-30T21:52:04+00:00

If women aren't allowed to be afraid of all men because they were abused by one man or multiple men, men aren't allowed to be angry at all women for the crimes of one woman or multiple women. Pick one. You can't have it both ways.

PieceBringer · 2018-08-31T02:03:03+00:00

Vai tomar tu!

dougtulane · 2018-08-28T20:51:14+00:00

You're trying to use anecdotal experience to justify your own stereotypes. Any thought process that ends in you hating half of the human race is unjustifiable and broken.

And while I have sympathy for anyone who's recently endured heartbreak or loneliness, it doesn't justify the hatred I've seen vomited on the pages of TRP.

I was hugely unsuccessful with women as a teenager. If I had turned that into hatred and resentment, that would have continued forever. It didn't.

AllahHatesFags · 2018-08-29T13:55:37+00:00

Yeah how dare we use our life experiences to inform our opinions, attitudes, and behaviors! We should just ignore the evidence we observe in our lives and trust that feminism has men's best interests at heart!

/s

Title	[CMV] It doesn't make sense to shame men for being hurt by women
Author	VAOTOMARNOCU
Upvotes	51
Comments	227
Date	August 28, 2018 5:14 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9b0scq/cmv_it_doesnt_make_sense_to_shame_men_for_being/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-it-doesnt-make-sense-to-shame-men-for-being.261004 https://theredarchive.com/post/261004