Q4ALL: Why are men losing on so many fronts?

Cho_Assmilk · 2018-04-11T09:55:15+00:00

Male.

2 thing you forgot.

men make receive higher prison sentences for equal crimes; thus aiding to the higher % of males incarcerated
men are still the only gender drafted should the state decide conscription be necessary

End of the day, men are expendable because they can't produce more fodder feed for the state.

MercedesBenzoAMG · 2018-04-11T09:46:56+00:00

Men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women

I wanna focus on this specifically because it's something I genuinely care about. I narrowly survived suicide myself (inb4 cry for help: do you really think I don't know the fatal drug combos?)

Afterwards I managed to finally get treatment for the mental illness I had been struggling with ever since I was 10 years old after getting virtually no support at all for my whole life.

I donate money to the charity CALM which provides support to depressed men in an attempt to lower the male suicide rate so I like to think in some small way I'm helping.

Now there's a lot of factors at play on this issue.

First of all, even if we put mental illness aside for the moment, suicide rates are highest among divorced men. If you are a man who gets divorced you are more than three times more likely to commit suicide due to that factor alone. Marriage is quite literally a game of Russian roulette.

And if you do have mental illness well you're pretty fucked because men get no sympathy.

Women are wonderful and if a woman is crying everyone rushes over to see what's wrong. Men are disposable and if a man is crying and he's pathetic and useless.

So you get nothing, you get left to go mad and off yourself, no one gives a shit.

After I tried to kill myself I only got help because my family paid for private treatment. They didn't really care before I made an actual attempt on my life, I was just being dramatic. The NHS didn't care and still doesn't, as far as they're concerned people with mental illness deserve no support and should be left to die.

The issues with the NHS are not male specific, but it's part of the overall issue and it's a big factor in why suicide rates are so high.

The male specific issues are lack of sympathy and lack of support that follows. I will say it again: men are disposable and even your own family is not going to give a shit about you being depressed until it gets so bad you try to take your life.

There's also the fact that men are more likely to self-medicate with drink and drugs. This is naturally going to lead to more death and a convenient suicide method.

How can this be fixed? I don't think the central issue of people not caring as much about men can. I think on a level it is biological. We are wired to care more about women than men.

We can put out campaigns encouraging men to seek out support, which is part of the work CALM does, however more often than not the support isn't there. This is a more general issue that needs fixing.

But ultimately I don't think people will ever care as much about men as they do about women and that is that. The most we can do is make sure there is professional support available for men who seek it.

Men make up most of the homeless.

Same kind of thing goes for this too, as there is enormous overlap between mental illness and homelessness.

the_calibre_cat · 2018-04-11T13:04:40+00:00

To main reasons

No one gives a fuck about men. Men are either sink or swim in this society. Lose your job and can't pay child support? Off to jail then.

Homeless? Oh well. No one is going to take you in. No white Knights. No government. They prefer it if you just look yourself so they don't have to look at you.

Men have no motivation to be agressive in the work force. Women aren't catching up really, it's more like men aren't trying. They knew this in the past, that's why they had incentives.

What's a guys incentive today? Bust your ass for a cheating wife who's gonna leave and take your kids? Pay the government? Get berated by women and society? Seriously? What's our reward?

I've personally figured this out the past couple years myself. Why do i work a high paying job that's probably gonna put me in an early grave due to the stress? I was ten times happier delivering pizza part time and goofing off the rest of the time. Why wouldn't men just goof off and smoke pot all day? Let the women work, they seem to enjoy it (for now).

Tammylan · 2018-04-11T10:08:30+00:00

Please state your own gender when replying.

I'm male.

Most Western societies are gynocentric.

And the reason that we can't honestly discuss gynocentrism is, wait for it, gynocentrism.

Want to talk about the way that 80% of suicides are men? "No, STFU, women attempt suicide more."

Want to talk about how over 90% of deaths in the workplace are men? "No, STFU, women are excluded from those fields."

Want to talk about how women now make up 60% of University graduates? "No, STFU, we need to get more women into STEM."

The most egregious example of feminist gynocentrism I can think of is when Phil Walsh (coach of the Adelaide Crows in the Australian Football League) was stabbed to death by his son in 2015.

The following day, when it was pretty much known that one of the top sporting coaches in Australia had been killed by his son, I watched an episode of the ABC panel show "The Drum".

There were three panellists, two male and one female. The woman on the panel used the death of a man killed by his son less than 24 hours earlier to push her feminist agenda.

In her own words:

"I hope this tragic event leads to a discussion about domestic violence in Australia and how it affects women. Furthermore, I hope that this larger discussion includes a debate about the use of gendered slurs against women, such as the use of words like 'bitch' and 'slut'.

I remember sitting in front of my TV with my mouth wide open. A guy has been stabbed to death by his son overnight, and you're seriously trying to make it about women being called nasty words?

Neither of the two guys on the panel pointed out how incredibly heartless and fucking insensitive she was being. Because you're just simply not allowed to criticize feminist orthodoxy. Doing so would have lost them their jobs.

THAT is gynocentric feminist privilege and male disposability in a nutshell.

poppy_blu · 2018-04-11T12:07:18+00:00

Gender: female.

Disclaimer: I've worked in public health for 20 years. In this context, I deal with mental illness, suicide, violence, incarceration, and homelessness as they affect men every day. I am well versed in the statistics, the causes and the nuances. Meaning, hear me out - even though I have a vagina, I do have a well informed perspective on this topic.

If I tell you that men commit suicide at a higher rate because they're discouraged from having emotional outlets and told to suck it up -- by other men too -- you will tell me I'm trying to "feminize" them.

If I tell you men die earlier because of poorer health (see lack of funding for men's health and discrimination by insurance companies -- mostly run by men), you will tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about as you're convinced it's because men are doing dangerous jobs (70% of American men are employed in white collar jobs).

If I tell you that the reason there are 2 million men in American jails has far more to do with the prison industrial complex than feminists, you'll call me an SJW liberal snowflake and dismiss me.

If I tell you that men make up most of the homeless because they've been hit particularly hard by loss of manufacturing jobs and lack of affordable housing, you'll tell me "men don't want your handouts" (which isn't evern what I'm suggesting).

If I tell you that statistically, poor and minority men bear the brunt of these problems and that reducing poverty would start to reverse a lot of these statistics, you'll tell I'm race baiting.

If I tell you that demonizing women isn't going to make society stop demonizing men, you'll tell me I'm shamelessly defending "team woman."

Men have problems and men face bias in the legal system and other aspects of our society. But the consistent denial of how class, economics, politics, and plain old corporate greed drive a lot of these problems is just as unhelpful as blaming the patriarchy.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2018-04-11T09:46:26+00:00

Male variance

wtknight · 2018-04-11T12:53:47+00:00

I am male. There are plenty of men who are doing well and they don't really support or have much empathy for the men who are not doing so well. That's really what it comes down to.

Eastuss · 2018-04-11T09:20:43+00:00

Male.

Simple: Women are wonderful effect

abaxeron · 2018-04-11T12:18:28+00:00

BUCKLE UP BUCKAROOS

Some people have answered with something along the lines of "Traditionalism", "Traditional Gender Roles", or even fled into naturalistic argument ("well, such cases, such is male and female nature").

This is what they forget though: I've studied some reconstructions of historical statistics on common "anti-male" statistics in primary Western nations (such as France, Britain, the US, Australia - primary Western economies). Here's fun fact: women used to constitute rather high share of serial killers merely 120 years ago (between 1 in 4 and 1 in 3, in comparison with around 1 in 15 now). Same goes for sentenced to death, sentenced to banishment, sentenced to imprisonment. Same goes for even suicide - in Japan and Britain, m/f suicide rates happened to be lower than 2:1 prior to...... whatever it is we're in now. Less than three generations ago.

After investigating all the "Why"s that might have contributed, I came to conclusion that the main contributing factor looks roughly like this image. The burden of supporting civilization was put onto working-class men at the expense of their right to fruits of their labor. Socialists won and proved their hypothesis to be true - it is possible to build a working, stable socialist nation. But only for one sex. The other one gets literally locked down in slightly modernized version of feudalism.

We're having half of humankind's productive potential concentrated in the hands of the only maniacs who have access to nuclear weapons. What could possibly go wrong? And if you were on their place, what would you use this money for? - To buy loyalty of female majority of voters. The most rational thing to do in their situation.

what should be done to change it?

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”

Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850. This is my answer. We need to draw and maintain distinction between government and society, between government's interests and society's interests.

Update: Oh, I'm male. Sorry, forgot.

BirdManBrrrr · 2018-04-11T13:46:19+00:00

Why are men losing?

Lack of purpose, and yes I do believe its biological despite the refrain of "muh gender roles" trying to deny men are wired a certain way. At the root of it all men no longer have a distinct function in society along with the ownership of something they can internalize and drive them; it's easy to blame feminism but economics is likely just as big of a factor as someone else here mentioned. Jordan Peterson has argued a lot of the despondency amongst young men in particular--up to and including the opiod crisis--is from the lack of purpose, lack of identity, the lack of a vision for where they fit in society, lack of healthy role models, and the resulting lack of hope.

The suicide rate for divorced men is perhaps the most telling of this: a man makes his family/kids his purpose in life, and once the courts are done he's lost it all (in his mind). The identity of being a father and provider is gone. What's left to live for? INB4- "oh well its not that bad, he has shared custody/he can make the money back/he can find a new woman/etc". No, rationalizations don't help.

Despite the beating to death here at PPD of "toxic masculinity" and whatnot what is undeniable is there is a disjointed, conflicting narrative of what masculinity is in the first place. Either its some sort of cartoonish machismo or treating boys/men as defective girls; all layered with some emphasis on masculinity's impact on women. This article, for example, has more to do with women than it does with men, and the article is talking about how this redefinition is being sold to middle-high school aged boys.

That's the sell- your manhood is defined by how you interact with women, not how you self identify as a man.

Let's not forget how often young boys are medicated. I'd argue this has more to do with diet and sedentary lifestyles than anything but the default mindset is a rowdy boy is, again, defective by nature and needs to be "treated".

How to fix it?

Work to make men their own point of mental origin and move them to find purpose, and NOT be moved to find purpose by women. Have men teach men their lives should not be defined by women, nor have women be their mission in life. Teach them to live for themselves and find fulfillment from within. Men need to do teach men/boys how to do this, not women.

There's a reason why Jordan Peterson has grown wildly in popularity and his book is currently Amazon's non-fiction's #1 most read and #2 best seller; like him or not his message resonates deeply with men in a way not much else has in a long time. Young men in particular know something's wrong; they may not be able to identify it nor know the reasons why but that nagging feeling is there.

goatismycopilot · 2018-04-11T12:07:15+00:00

I wonder what percentage of the prison population is there because of drug offenses and as an indirect result of mental illness. I think the US has one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world, add to that our prison system thanks to late stage capitalism is often run as a profit enterprise. That is fucked up. Here in the US we also do not have a great mental health system. I think there are many men who likely have a bipolar or depressive disorder and are undiagnosed because they have no health insurance, crappy insurance, or just do not go to the doctor.

We also have a street to prison culture in the US which means poor white and black men are more likely to get into crime and gangs early and then prison.

Working class men have also gotten screwed by the expanse of global capitalism and had the jobs that sustained them ripped away and replaced with shit jobs that do not pay well. That is the appeal of Trump, he has successfully taped into legitimate anger about that. Let's see if he delivers.

In terms of school, I don't know, American kids are semi retarded compared to other nations, our kids don't do well. Girls might be out performing men but I wonder how American girls stack up against the rest of the world in international testing. Americans in general do not value school, they ironically enough value sports more which would make sense if we were fit but we aren't. We are a pretty anti intellectual nation, have been for a couple of generations, I do not see that changing so the flagging performance of boys is part of that trend.

the_calibre_cat · 2018-04-11T13:11:39+00:00

When you're presented with a game you have no chance of winning, why try to play?

xtfftc · 2018-04-11T11:29:17+00:00

Male.

The way I see it males have "higher risk higher reward" roles in our society. They tend to reap more benefits than women, but when things go wrong, they go wrong spectacularly. Males have more opportunities, but there's also higher expectations (obviously not for everything but in general) that they cannot meet. Often these expectations are self-imposed but they come from women as well (the type of women I personally tend to avoid for that very reason but many others chase).

Combine this with the glorification of stoic breadwinner "alpha" males, and the result is countless men cannot fit and end with a fractured identity that leads to desperate attempts to fix things.

gabriot · 2018-04-11T13:11:55+00:00

"There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper."

Men vary more in different traits than women. IQ for an example. Men and women have the same average but women are cluster in the middle of the bell curve.

Men are willing to take more risks in life. The natural instability caused by more risk taking open themselves up to the negative side effects of it. Watch little boys play. They are way more rough than girls and more likely to get injured.

Women are risk averse. They play safe in life hence why they don't suffer in life as much but don't achieve greatness like the top men in the world do.

ashaw7 · 2018-04-11T21:51:10+00:00

I'll be very blunt and speak plainly here. Men and women are biologically wired differently in how and when we ask for help, and our biases to asking for help are also shaped by the sex of the person asking and the sex of the people who hear the call for help.

This works to the advantage of women in school. This works better for women in the criminal justice system.

[deleted] · 2018-04-11T10:07:07+00:00

Because of traditional gender roles.

Joriko13 · 2018-04-11T13:23:04+00:00

Male.

On the issue of mental health, I recall watching a video a few months ago about a movement that was occuring in Australia involving Sheds for male mental health therapy. I believe it was called the SHED movement.

More or less, the therapy involved several men preoccupying themselves in some form of craft (woodwork for instance) and building something as a group. In that therapy as they were building the object in question it often resulted in this small group of men talking and interacting and by doing so resolving any sort of grievance or problem they were personally experiencing.

I'm a plumber, and I often find that in my job, especially with a lot of younger apprentices that I'm usually discussing some sort of personal problem they are going through as we work. I believe that this is because the mentor/mentee relationship I build with my apprentices and the trust that grows between us.

Could it be that strictly in regards to the male mental health crisis that maybe encouraging young males to take part in a more physical/mechanical education could be incorporated into therapy practices in the west more commonly??

Could these things be related? It just makes a lot of sense to me considering many studies make the observation that the male brain is more mechanically inclined. It seems obvious that mental health and therapy should make the distinction and treat these troubled individuals accordingly. Thoughts??

Edit: the movement I was referring to. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shed

Eris235 · 2018-04-11T15:42:58+00:00

Gender: Male

Like most societal issues, the answers are complicated, and there are many contributing factors, so I'm going to answer from my own personal experiences.

My history with depression and suicide attempts has been the textbook one for young men, where the base problems were greatly compounded by a refusal to admit there is a problem to anyone, or to seek any outside help. So I do blame toxic masculinity for my personal problems. And had I not overcome that programming to be 100% self reliant, I do believe I would be dead or homeless.

So I do think that that is a pretty large contributing factor to higher male suicide and lower life expectancy. I'm definitively not saying that each individual man is at fault for not seeking help and support, as the system was designed with letting men fall through the cracks, nor am I saying that each man that has there problems hasn't tried to find help. But it was my primary problem, and a primary problem for quite a few of the other men I've talked to in various mental health facilities.

But with medication and therapy, I'm pretty stable and happy, with a STEM job and a good LTR.

Are all the problems OP listed caused by toxic masculinity? No, of course not. But I think the mental health ones particularly are greatly influenced by this, and the issues associated with risk taking and men not valuing themselves are also influenced by this. That is on both a personal level, and on a policy level.

Five_Decades · 2018-04-11T16:45:34+00:00

I'm male.

I think women are just more pro-social and responsible. Men are more risk takers. There are more men on the extreme ends of the distribution, while there are more women in the middle of any distribution.

So women are more risk adverse on average, but they don't rise to the top (or fall to the bottom) as often as men. Men are more expendable, women are more interested in long term planning and holding society together.

this is due to evolution. If you have a tribe with 100 men and 100 women, and 80% of the men die the tribe survived. You can easily impregnate all 100 women with 20 men. Each year produces 100 babies.

If you kill off 80% of the women, the tribe falls apart. Now 100 men are competing to impregnate 20 women. Each year produces 20 babies, and most likely the tribe will descend into civil war as men fight to impregnate the women.

Evolution sucks.

Also men commit suicide more often, but women attempt it more often.

Justice4DevilBear · 2018-04-11T20:09:51+00:00

Male.

Other users have made great points about the difference in manifestation of mental illness and being able to recognize/treat it in a way that may be unusual by modern psychological analysis (psych eval's get better and better as time goes on but it is a female dominated subject which may possibly lead to the emergence of certain types of biases).

Also I can't really speak on anyone elses behalf other than my own, but anecdotally I've noticed men tend to shoot one another in the foot in regards to realizing they need help. "Man up/ Don't be a pussy/ Stop bitching/ Act like a man, etc..." was never a mantra that originated from any political group, its just how men have always spoken to one another and there are some caveats to that type of socialization.

It's sad and ironic that seeking help is considered "cowardly" but self medicating, being angry, and potentially taking your own life are considered normal. Sucks, but until we start talking to one another (not just men or just women, but everyone) instead talking at each other it's just going to be a never ending "get even, not equal" screaming contests that won't ever lead to helpful change.

AllahHatesFags · 2018-04-11T21:09:38+00:00

Women are human beings, men are human doings. Women get validation simply for existing and are no longer held to any standards of behavior while men are only worth what our broken society can extract from them; a man that has nothing left to give is considered worthless and offered no help or sympathy.

concacanca · 2018-04-11T09:23:32+00:00

Inb4: toxic masculinity

There is a lot of pro female sexism driven by institutional feminism. The vast majority of teachers are women, testing had been moved from exam based where men do well, to coursework based where women do well. Everything has become less adversarial.

In my first job out of school - for the government we all had to take training on feminine communication styles and commit to not ending meetings until even the least relevant woman had spoken - there was no such provision for men.

Quotas are everywhere and the need for a strong public persona opens up pretty much every board to haranguing from feminists online and in person.

Women are also more organised due to the strong in group bias. Look at these womens marches when trump was elected for example.

Oh and single mothers forcing a lack of positive male role models on a daily basis. At least they got their emotional tampons!

AutoModerator · 2018-04-11T09:03:31+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[deleted] · 2018-04-11T12:31:57+00:00

Men spend less than women in general and jobs requiring physical force are plummeting, so their importance to society elites (and the big corps who need enthusiastic consumption) is now negligable. And if you are negligable, no one will care about you and help you anymore.

yasee · 2018-04-11T15:24:34+00:00

Like most things, there is no single cause for any of these trends. Take homelessness for example; there are a bunch of intersecting economic, political, social and even biological (e.g. higher incidence of debilitating mental illness like schizophrenia) realities that likely contribute to a greater proportion of men ending up on the street. It's not as simple as a single problem with a single answer. I do think that the dearth of male-specific services (particularly for abuse victims) in most places needs to be addressed, and it's a shame that some of the more popular online male-centric communities seemed to have poisoned the well for a lot of people in that regard. But there are promising organizations and resources out there that are starting to take these issues more seriously and focus on providing support to men from a male-specific perspective; 1in6 is a good example.

female

Merger-Arbitrage · 2018-04-11T17:38:24+00:00

If true, it just makes it easier to look like a winner in a relative sense.

PhucCheet · 2018-04-11T17:50:24+00:00

Men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women - especially when you take into consideration young men with no history of mental illness.

Because female victims have more supports

Men make up most of the homeless.

Because female victims have more supports

Men die earlier.

Self-inflicted, not prejudice. Men die young more often from our own doing: suicide, vehicle accidents from riskier driving, drug overdoses, alcoholism, sports accidents, war, gangs, fights. Men take more risks. Men also have fewer supports for depression and victimization, which can lead to coping with self-destructive behaviors.

Men make up a minority of the college population, and a minority of those who graduate

Most men are wired to hunt and haul brick, not sit in a class and read books. The issue is not fewer men getting college degrees but this modern prejudice that college is the better/only outcome, instead of embracing other masculine paths as equally valid (e.g. trades).

Men as a group are associated with far less positive traits than women are

Positive traits - according to who? Then consider why they're saying it. Women say women are wonderful because of feminism and female empowerment movements. Men say women are wonderful to get laid.

Million-Suns · 2018-04-11T17:56:54+00:00

The "Women are wonderful effect" is precisely what addresses the manosphere, particularly black pills, red pills and MGTOW.

It's all about putting women out of their pedestals and realize that they have flaws and many are monsters created by the current society norms.

That's one step towards recovery.

vornash2 · 2018-04-11T18:11:57+00:00

They lost things like the manly art of stocism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9OCA6UFE-0

It's not an obvious way of thinking without being taught about it, so it's actually important to expose yourself to ancient and proven ways of approaching life.

Also, I highly recommend Dr. Jordan Peterson on youtube.

LUClEN · 2018-04-11T20:32:48+00:00

Men are less likely to receive support from the system yet often more likely to put themselves into such situations where they may need it*. This is influenced by several factors, ranging from men being more likely to refuse help due to machismo, a greater propensity for risky behaviour such as drug use, and a kind of chivalrous attitude that views women as more deserving of help / less capable than men. This is why we see fewer shelters dedicated to men despite the fact that men suffer from debilitating mental illness and addiction at rates that dwarf women, why we see men do life-threatening work that doesn't require a degree or a student loan like electrical and welding, and part of why our overall mortality rate is higher / lower life expectancy

*^it ^could ^be ^said ^that ^women ^receive ^a ^lot ^of ^assistance ^due ^to ^their ^role ^as ^single ^parents. ^Creating ^kids ^involves ^both ^a ^man ^and ^a ^woman ^so ^for ^simplicity ^sake ^I ^think ^it's ^fair ^to ^leave ^this ^factor ^undissected.

mistercheeez-o____O- · 2018-04-11T20:38:21+00:00

An infiltration of feminists in every relevant sector of our civilization, with manipulative use, deliberate misinterpretation, and/or blatant fabrication of statistics, coupled with a very low definition understanding of recent history, and a compulsion for our so called "patriarchal" power structures to paradoxically gobble them up; has given credence to a victim narrative that officially likened western women to an oppressed group such as a visible minority, in their view anyway, has created a culture that coddles and favours women whom are indoctrinated into viewing themselves as victims through schooling, PSAs, celebrity, traditional media and social media.

Thus our society provides a plethora of resources to help, assist and provide for women, and very little, if at all, for men.

SmeggingRight · 2018-04-11T21:50:17+00:00

Gender: male

I think mental illness, male stubbornness and pride, and not knowing where our place is in society is behind most of it. If men can't get what other men have got, then they're more likely than women to try to get it any way they can - which might mean:

throwing every ounce of energy into getting rich
working out every spare hour for a hard body
selling drugs
stealing - white collar crime or other
armed robbery (very extreme end)
raping (very extreme end)
killing (very extreme end)
committing suicide so he doesn't have to witness his failures anymore (very extreme end)

"Men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women - especially when you take into consideration young men with no history of mental illness"

= addiction and mental illness

"Homelessness"

= addiction and mental illness

"Men die earlier"

= testosterone. Also, workplace accidents.

"Men make receive higher prison sentences for equal crimes; thus aiding to the higher % of males incarcerated"

= poverty, mental illness, addiction and desire to have what other men have. I've read stuff that says most women are in jail for low-level drug crimes. - they're not generally murderers, rapists, armed robbers etc. so your statement at face value doesn't give the whole picture. It's true that too many people - men and women - are put in jail for low level drug crimes.

"Men make up a minority of the college population, and a minority of those who graduate"

= men make up a vast majority of engineering, computer science, math. Almost all STEM careers earn more than the average wage. The problem isn't as dire as your figure states. A lot of college degrees don't end up in the person making a lot of money. And even a woman with a good degree might nix it in the bud to start a family.

So - people of PPD... Why is this? What is the cause of this, and what should be done to change it ?

More money can and should be put into mental health. More job creation - men don't feel like they're achieving unless they're bringing home a good wage. Programs to lessen poverty - poverty brings with it all the problems listed in the OP. Even mental illness is far more likely to be successfully treated if the person has money. Stop putting so many people in jail for low level drug crimes and have treatment centers instead.

TheBookOfSeil · 2018-04-11T22:34:59+00:00

Male.

Men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women - especially when you take into consideration young men with no history of mental illness.

I think the correct answer to this is that men are more successful at committing suicide than women are. As far as attempts go, I'm uncertain about those details.

Men die earlier.

Something to do with the Y chromosome.

Men make up most of the homeless.

For a variety of reasons. Could be more likely to have felony charges against them which make it more difficult to get decent jobs or live in certain places. It could also be because women are more protected and given more attention than men are, so you'll seldom see a moderately attractive woman homeless. Most know that they can avert being homeless by simply finding a "boyfriend" anyway.

Men make up a minority of the college population, and a minority of those who graduate

Could be because of previous affirmative action for women in college. Could also be because men work the majority of blue-collar jobs that don't require a formal education.

Men receive worse grades than women in school - and this is likely due to discrimination

Maybe. I don't have any opinion on this one.

Men as a group are associated with far less positive traits than women are

Social bias.

Men make receive higher prison sentences for equal crimes; thus aiding to the higher % of males incarcerated So - people of PPD... Why is this? What is the cause of this, and what should be done to change it ?

Again, social bias and potential discrimination. As far as "changing it," what can be done to change it? With the law functioning the way it has been, to include the ruling of Roe v. Wade, it seems like there is a conscious effort being made to shift the paradigm from "The Patriarchy" ^TM to "The Matriarchy" ^TM but that is just speculation, of course.

newName543456 · 2018-04-11T23:24:41+00:00

Mainstream media demonize men - especially straight white ones. I mean stuff like "cis white male" is a meme already.

sketch162000 · 2018-04-11T23:36:19+00:00

Gender: Male.

Short Answer: Because one man can impregnate many women, so men have always been the disposable gender, for all intents and purposes. Nothing is done about it because everyone believes in patriarchy.

Longer Answer: The reason why nothing is done to correct this is because of an Apex Fallacy whereby men, as a group, are seen as hegemonic overlords (and thus not needing any help on an individual level) because out of the most powerful, successful, wealthiest, and most self-actualized people in history, the majority have been men.

What really happened is that historically, heterosexual men were generally afforded more rights than other groups of people, but also generally were tasked with more responsibilities which directly led them to being ground up as fodder between the gears of civilization (aka all the points that OP made and more)

voteGOPk · 2018-04-11T23:56:28+00:00

testosterone in a 21st century world where means of creating new wealth favor common "manly" (testosterone) traits much less now.

eventually we adapt. but we witness the "lag"

purplepill debate is in part seeing this lag when it comes to sexual dynamics which are impacted by the adaptation.

Orchidwoman2 · 2018-04-12T01:05:03+00:00

What's with the whining? Be a man.

planejane · 2018-04-12T02:16:09+00:00

I know this will be buried and it's probably for the best as it's possibly the sort of thing that will get a lot of hate-but here goes.

I'm female, for the record.

My question is, if the idea behind RP is that men and women are inherently different and provide different things to society, why are RP men so hung up on sex differences where they lose?

I'm not saying some of these things aren't legitimately awful, and there shouldn't be work done to minimize things like suicide, homelessness, etc-but a lot of these can be attributed to the more recklessness of male nature.

So many men I know have health issues from things they did on a lark as a kid-back and leg issues from extreme sports or getting into fights when younger (which contribute to obesity and other health concerns due to loss of mobility), stubbornly refusing to admit they have an issue with drugs or alcohol and allowing those substances to increase risk taking behaviors. Etc etc.

I'm not red, but using the same red arguments when it comes to the wage gap (that women earn less due to choices they make regarding flexibility and hours worked), isn't it possible that a good number of these discrepancies are due at least in part due to the choices men make that are more in line with male nature?

Edit: a word.

[deleted] · 2018-04-12T05:02:14+00:00

Male :

Men die earlier

How is this falling behind though? As far as I know the gap hasn't been widening, and from just googling it I found an article claiming the gap has historically been there cross culturally. There might be base biological factors, tendency towards disease, risk taking behavior of men, etc. Men are more likely to drink heavily, for instance. That is why my Grandfather died at 50 to liver disease whereas my grandmother died in her early 70s due to Leukemia.

Men make up most of the homeless.

Though there are about 500,000 people that were homeless 'for a single night' in 2016 in the US, but of course that number hardly tells the whole story, and looking deeper I found that ~87,000 would be considered 'chronically homeless', that is homeless for a year or longer, or homeless repeatedly over some time frame. Even if we double that and round up we get to 2/3250, or ~1/160.

So I view the issue the same way I view Transgenders, they may have their own concerns and problems, but it's hardly a problem for all of society to consider.

It's quite likely that a large portion of that 1/160 is mentally deranged, note that I'm not trying to use the term deranged as a pejorative.

We seem to want to be talking about 'men generally' here, and I don't believe that just pointing to homelessness allows us to speak of men generally, at least with other data points.

Men make up a minority of the college population, and a minority of those who graduate

This may be true but it doesn't really provide enough context to consider it as an example of negative outcomes towards men. I think it should be considered as an example of female privilege as a counter to claims of male superiority.

To make the point about not really showing males at a disadvantage, I would point to the endless reeeing over 'useless degrees'. Certainly if we look at the degrees women get vs men get, and if we were to categorize them by their advantage quantified in some way, perhaps predict cost of degree vs monetary outcome for life we might find that men are still at an advantage. In fact I wouldn't doubt that feminists will, or have, formed arguments about 'male dominated majors being worth more by society due to social constructs.'

More women receive degrees because more women are going to college to simply ensure their status than to produce any positive long term life outcome for themselves. They take up comfortable majors such as early childhood education or social work or art histroy or english lit. They may take up something moderately more serious that they find interesting like psychology or Biology, or nursing or that they think guarantees them some financial stability like business. This second grouping requires a little more effort, but ultimately no deep understanding, and instead only the ability to acquire and spit back information.

nofucksgiven-exe · 2018-04-12T07:35:37+00:00

Men die earlier for uncertain, biological reasons that we can't change. We don't have to risk our lives in childbirth or deal with the hassle of it, so that's saying something.

Men are a lot less likely to get help when it comes to mental illness and poverty. Not only are they less likely to have financial or emotional support from their SOs (women are less expected to be the provider and often don't take kindly to "weakness"), they often get the "suck it up" treatment even in a very difficult situation (vs women more likely to get "you poor thing!").

Courts are more severe against men for the same crimes. However, men are more likely to commit those crimes, which also contributes to their prison population. This has the unfortunate effect of having the good men appear more "guilty." Court bias also plays a huge role in the effects of divorce on men vs. women.

Ordinate1 · 2018-04-12T13:10:47+00:00

We're playing to lose.

Bedtimeshine · 2018-04-14T08:15:32+00:00

Handle your shit like a fucking man and none of this will affect you. This is pointless information. Literally all of this is inconsequential. It’s a dog eat dog world... you go to jail or become homeless. Good... week ass dudes die earlier or kill themselves... atleast they got out of the way.

[deleted] · 2018-04-14T12:51:42+00:00

Female.

While these disparities are important to acknowledge when trying to decide "who's worse off" - and are a key argument against women's victim card - their existence, by themselves, has a large natural gender-difference component.

Globally, I'd guess (I haven't studied this) men tend to take more risks, and as such enjoy greater rewards and greater penalties. Right now society is trying to skew this - women see the rewards and want them, but not the risks or the penalties - but it's not possible to get rid of this entirely.
To my knowledge, old men generally die earlier than old women - that's biology.
Younger men dying might be a combination of violent crime, riskier jobs, other risk-taking behaviors (think DWI, extreme sports), substance abuse rates, suicides. Of the latter, some is biological (tendency towards violence, tendency towards risk), and some of it is undoubtedly societal, but both factors are there.
Men are more incarcerated probably because they commit more crimes.
In education: this is a big one where I think boys really do suffer. The education system does not cater to their learning style of schedule of maturity at all, and less and less so than before. This is certainly true about the moral education - although there isn't such a class, it still occurs. Perhaps Jordan Peterson is so popular because he fills that void for young men.
I don't know about the grades being worse just because of overt discrimination - I've also seen it go the other way, where a boy's accomplishments are made more of than a girl's similar accomplishments (by a female teacher). However, having to sit still for six hours with no recess, and read only girly books for English class, and suppress every masculine impulse probably doesn't help the grades.
A lot of effects are also exacerbated by mental illness - its manifestation and treatment (or lack thereof). I doubt that the mental health establishment in general has much real empathy for men and their problems, without immediately co-opting them in a Marxist way, as a "class" oppressed by "the system". (There was a lot of tying to turn the disaffected blue-collar Trump supporter into such as class after the 2016 election.)

Madness20 · 2018-04-14T21:16:28+00:00

I like how pretty much everyone automatically assumes that men die earlier as a biological staten fact, instead of something much more to do with consequences of living conditions and lack of access to the correct healthcare for them.

I'd guess the same argument could be made that if africans live up to have 40 years life expetancy in some places, than it must be because they're biologically conditioned for that.

Willow-girl · 2018-04-11T11:52:58+00:00

"It's the economy, stupid." Fewer jobs here in manufacturing (which men tend to be good at) and more in "meds and eds" (which includes a lot of traditionally female jobs like nursing and teaching).

When men don't have jobs to keep them busy, bad things happen. Idle hands do the devil's work, etc.

Electra_Cute · 2018-04-11T12:25:41+00:00

Gender: Female.

Men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women - especially when you take into consideration young men with no history of mental illness.

They use different suicide methods that are more lethal, there is a different age group of men dominating the statistic and men are also less likely to get help. Combine all of this it creates a disproportionate results.

Men die earlier

Men are less likely to go to regular routine check-ups at the doctor and men are more likely to work stressful or dangerous jobs.

Men make up most of the homeless

Again, there is probably many reasons for this, a few I can think of: Veterans are more likely to be homeless and most veterans are men, a lot of homeless men are probably homeless due to substance abuse and do not have the same option of using prostitution to fund their addiction and they are also less likely to get help with their addiction.

Men make up a minority of the college population, and a minority of those who graduate

I do not really have a thought on why this could be because I never really looked into it.

Men as a group are associated with far less positive traits than women are

I just think men are seen this way because it is generally true, but they also have a lot more positive traits which it forgotten about as well.

Men make receive higher prison sentences for equal crimes; thus aiding to the higher % of males incarcerated

I do not think "equal" crimes exist so I doubt those crimes are "equal", so I see that as a non-gendered issue.

Why is this? What is the cause of this, and what should be done to change it ?

The male gender role, indirect systemic problems(probably in the schools and biological tendencies. As far as fixing any of this, I have not the slightest clue how to do this, but I would rather not radically reorganize any system.

VermiciousKnidzz · 2018-04-11T13:36:06+00:00

society assumes men are stronger, more fit for leadership, less fit for caretaking roles, and are more sexually aggressive. thus you see bias in society that treats men as such. also creates toxic masculinity which, among other things, shows men that they're less off a man for asking for help or showing any emotion beyond anger.

funny thing is that Red Pill really perpetuates these stereotypes. they chastise feminism and then lean on the very stereotypes that creates this awful gender imbalance. ive seen Red Pill and irl women alike say that men are less manly for crying. really nauseating.

Tedesche · 2018-04-11T12:55:50+00:00

Well, the reasons differ by topic—I wouldn’t say there’s necessarily any singular cause for all of it, although there are certainly some underlying ones that contribute to most of them in some way (e.g. men being seen as more disposable than women).

Higher rates of male suicide are generally due to men choosing more effective means of it. Women attempt suicide more often, but succeed/follow through far less, because they don’t tend to choose particularly lethal methods.

I can’t explain men dying earlier completely, but I do know that at least some studies have found that, when women work as hard and as long as men, their lifetime advantage tends to disappear, suggesting that men’s shorter lifespans are at least partly due to work stress. Contrary to what some women would have you believe about how difficult childcare is, it’s really nothing compared to most full-time jobs.

As for homelessness, I too have wondered about that, and I don’t have a good answer for you. I would bet that women’s shelters being generally nicer and safer than men’s shelters is a big part of it though. Men’s shelters tend to get populated with men who should really be (and recently were) in prison, which is what gives them the reputation of being “prison without bars/guards.”

As for boys doing worse in school, I have a personal theory about this. I think boys—due to their more energetic, rambunctious natures—tend to be more difficult to raise than girls, who are far more likely to be obedient and compliant. Because of this, I think some fatigue sets in with both parents and teachers when dealing with boys, and over time, this results in them getting away with more. Coupled with the societal notion that boys should be independent, they’re given a lot of freedom and less supervision, compared to girls. I think, much of the time, this results in them spending less time on their schoolwork and more time on social/leisure activities.

It gets worse when you look at low-income, particularly poor black communities in the U.S. The epidemic of fatherlessness is so pervasive there, that it seems to have set up a self-perpetuating cycle. Boys have no fathers, so they go out seeking male role models, and because their mothers are too taxed being single parents to mind them properly, they often fall in with the wrong crowd. The girls, also missing a father figure, seek it out in their dating life, and similarly tend to choose men who are unlikely to stick around. Then those girls have kids, and copy their mothers, who was the only parental model they ever had. And the cycle repeats.

AFAIK, the sentencing gap is pure discrimination. And it’s not just a sentencing gap—the discrimination occurs at all stages of the criminal justice process.

carefreevermillion · 2018-04-11T18:25:28+00:00

Donald Trump is president and men control literally every branch of governement on the federal level and make up the vast majority of local and state reps. If men are falling behind it's because the (largely white) rich men who run the country are failing them. Not "feminism" or a "gynocentric society" LMFAO

Men who blame their problems on women and a nebulous "feminism" are about the most pathetic creatures I can imagine. Your problems are not caused by women, they are caused by the capitalists who run your lives and the shitty American society you live in.

cateml · 2018-04-11T11:35:59+00:00

Woman

Men commit suicide at a much higher rate than women - especially when you take into consideration young men with no history of mental illness.

Men are less likely to talk about their problems than women, less likely to approach services, likely for fear of being judged as 'weak' or being told they should not talk about their feelings. Also partially men are more likely to have been spit out by the armed forces and in some places that has a link to mental health issues.

Men die earlier.

Mixture of factors. Men are less likely to approach help if they have a concern, as discussed above. Generally men take worse care of themselves and are more likely to drink heavily and smoke (generally). There is also likely some pure y chromosome related stuff in there.

Men make up most of the homeless.

Partly men being less likely to seek help for mental health and substance abuse problems, which can lead to homelessness, as mentioned above. Partly women are more likely to be the carer of children, and if you present to authorities as homeless with kids in tow you're going to automatically get a place to stay and services compared to individuals who are adults.

Men make up a minority of the college population, and a minority of those who graduate

No one really knows why this is. Related to the next question you asked. Also maybe partly because there are more career options 'for men' that don't require a college education. If I were a 17 year old boy and I was interested in 'a trade' I might go into say plumbing or carpentry as an apprentice. If I were a 17 year old girl in the same situation, I might be more likely to go into say nursing, which often requires some sort of more formal higher education. We'd probably be paid around the same in the end.

Men receive worse grades than women in school

Again this is unclear and likely complex. There is some research as you showed that suggests that boys are treated unfavourably at young ages, but also research suggesting otherwise. There is research that suggests that in science and maths girls tend to underestimate their ability - which could be the reason for this weird double sided outcome where girls get better grades (because they assume they'll do worse so they work harder to compensate) but are less likely to pursue it to any real benefit to them (because they assume they'll do worse). There is the behaviour stuff, which is again complicated.

What are the solutions? Depends on the problem and its complicated.

People fucking hate the 'toxic masculinity' approach to any of this, and the top comment on this is calling 'misandry'. But.... does anyone actually want to help? Because is 'misandry' really why men don't like to talk about their feelings? Or is it not wanting to be like the 'inferior emotional females who can't do anything without being babied through it'.

There are some organisations, like CALM someone mentioned, who are doing a great job of breaking down barriers in that area.

The education one is again tricky because it's so complex and ingrained. I've worked in schools with teenagers in 'engagement' and.... yeah I can't even begin to explain how heavily I must stress the word complex. Social expectations about grades and behaviour, family expectations about grades and behaviour, personal attitudes, future aspirations, a lot of things come into it and gender is all messed up in all of them. We almost certainly should completely rethink the way we do education because just shipping a load of kids from all different backgrounds and all different expectations and levels of functioning into a room and being like "listen to this person talk for an hour' is pretty silly. But it's also not as simple as 'boys like to run around more and use their hands, teachers don't like that stuff, teachers don't like boys'.
God knows, is the basic answer. On an individual basis in my life I just try and help men I know talk about their feelings and encourage them to get help when they're struggling, and try and instill hard work and personal responsibility over 'you're smart or you're think' into young boys I'm around socially, and when I'm working with young people I try and help them engage as individuals rather than expecting them all to fit neatly into the 'perfect student' package.

aellyce · 2018-04-11T18:25:52+00:00

Woman here.

Men are biologically wired to be risk-takers. That's why they make up both more of the billionaire CEOs and more of the homeless population. They are more likely to race cars and drive recklessly, which is why they pay more in car insurance, despite being competent drivers. They are far more likely to join gangs and sell drugs (how many all-female gangs have you seen), which at least partly explains why there are more of them in jail (although the 'woman are wonderful' effect does come into play in courts).

Women are more likely to play-it-safe in life...Going for the white picket fence and the college degree and the middle-class job. Not all of them, of course. I hope it's not too controversial to point out that generally, women are not prone to risk-taking. There are fewer female skydivers (about 20%), race car drivers, drug dealers, MMA fighters, startup founders, and even homeless drug addicts. Their lower tolerance to risk-taking has both good and bad outcomes.

Title	Q4ALL: Why are men losing on so many fronts?
Author	Altrightsjwfusion
Upvotes	43
Comments	491
Date	April 11, 2018 9:03 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8bfnb6/q4all_why_are_men_losing_on_so_many_fronts/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-why-are-men-losing-on-so-many-fronts.262916 https://theredarchive.com/post/262916