CMV: "Where Have All The Good Men Gone" is the feminine equivalent of "But I'm A Nice Guy," and the former is a more entitled attitude than the latter

Ultramegasaurus · 2017-09-17T07:25:52+00:00

The most direct nice guy equivalent is women complaining about men who only want sex but no relationships. It's extremely similar to the topic of women only wanting to be friends, yet women are allowed to complain while men are not. Apparently, men are "machines where you put in sex coins and a relationship falls out", to quote women's favorite metaphor against nice guys.

TheGreasyPole · 2017-09-17T12:51:37+00:00

I'll CYV....

"Where have all the good men gone" is not a reflection of entitlement, it actually corresponds with a change in reality for women as they age. It's a good description of where many women post 30 find themselves.

So.... here is how it occurs....

Men (at all ages) are preferentially attracted to women in their early to late 20s. Men aged 20, 30, 40, whatever. They all prefer girls in their 20s. Women preferentially are attracted to men their own age -2 to +5 years. This is supported anecdotally and by such data as we have access to. This is what RP says.

Also, men tend to get married late 20s-early 30s. Again, supported by anecdote, data and the RP position.

Now you have to think about how this appears to women.

Aged 18-28 every man on the planet is interested in them (or as interested as they're gonna be) ages 18-85 are interested in these chicks. Women are in their happy hunting ground. They are surrounded by eligible men of all ages who want to date them. Importantly ALSO the men they are most interested in (those aged -2+5 to their age) are still unmarried, even the really "good" ones (high status, good looks, willingness to commit etc etc).

They are surrounded by "good men who want to date me".

Now, let's fast forward a decade or so and start talking about the women who are still single aged, say, 32-40. What do THEY experience ?

Well..... First, all the "good men" in their preferred age group (-2/+5) have started to be snagged by women who are not single. Either married or in the LTR that will eventually lead to their marriage.

Even where there are some "good men" in their age range who are still single.... these guys are attracted to girls 22-29 and because they are "good men" (high status, good looks, eillingness to commit etc) they can easily date down there and are no longer hunting amongst these post 30's women.

Finally the guys 20-28 who are still unsnapped up and "good men" are not very attractive to the late 30s girls as they are too young and immature and (in any case) are also dating the girls they like in their 20s.

What the women are left with are the "bad men" in their age group (those that didn't get snagged, and are too low status/unattractive/unwilling to commit to date down to women in their 20s) as well as a bunch of men in their 40s and 50s who would date 30 yo women (being the best they can get, as 20s is too much of a stretch for them now) but who appear "way too old and grey and paunchy" for the 30s crowd. All the good men have indeed gone.

These are the phenomena RP talks about with "the wall" or women "approaching the wall". These women are no longer in their happy hunting ground.

To a woman the phrase "where did all the good men go?" perfectly describes their predicament in their 30s as with their egg timer going BRING BRIIIIIING, and then desperately needing a good man to be their hubby QUICKLY.... they suddenly look around and there are no good men. Or there are like 1-5% as many as there were just a few short years ago. The guys who are still interested are too unattractive, low status, unwilling to commit (if in their age range).... just not interested (if younger).... or just tooo fucking old grey and paunchy and low quality (if older), as the higher quality ones in that age group got married long ago

The answer to their question "where have all the good men gone?" Is simple.... They're either snagged/married (by those girls who snagged their man early), or dating women younger than them, or now in such an older age group that they are no longer attractive and of such low quality that they're 40+ and not married or multiple-divorcees and so no longer good men.

The flip side of this on the male side is the male expression "Hey, it is sooooo much easier to get girls now I'm in my early 30s than it was in my early 20s". As women exit their happy hunting ground, the men enter theirs.

So. This is not an expression of "entitlement" at all. It's simply an expression of the real circumstances they find themselves in ages 30+ and single (which are the women that say this). They have a very astute and accurate view of reality, the "good men" from their perspective are indeed gone and won't be coming nack.

OnlyRP... with its understanding of male/female sexual strategy... can really tell them why. This is a mystery to the BP world ... hung up as it is in a fantasy land where "older women are just as attractive as younger women" and where "girls should have fun in their 20s and only look to settle down in their 30s". They are totally missing this dynamic.

Only RP (the female flavour advising the chicks) really says "Hey girls, hunt for the good men young and snag them as soon as you can. Don't waste time fucking around. The prime time for you to snag your hubby is 20-24. Don't waste your pretty".

This isn't entitlement.

This is 30+ women realising they got screwed over by mainstream advice and trying to work out how it happened.

Only RP can outline precisely why.

Xholica · 2017-09-17T09:27:03+00:00

I view them as roughly equal.

The nice guy thinks he has 'earned sex', the woman posting that article has generally stayed in shape, is stable, has developed a career, is willing to commit and wants kids, she's generally looking for her equal. She thinks that she has earned it by being stable etc. This is generally implicit in the articles 'Why can't I (a stable, reasonably attractive woman who wants to commit) find a stable, reasonably attractive guy who wants to commit?'. This is also an expectation of reciprocity, she has become the kind of partner she would like and feels like she has earned the guy.

However entitlement can also be overestimating the value of what you are 'owed' and unlike earning there isn't a specific contract/reward laid out in terms of effort/actions and the effect that should be obtained from them. Both nice guys and women who can't find men are often overestimating the value of what they offer and are asking too much in return. This could be expressed as me holding a door for someone and then expecting them to do me a larger favour. While being nice to someone should result in them being nice back I've overvalued my time/effort and/or undervalued theirs. For examples using their currency, a plain guy being overly nice to a hot girl who has lots of hot guys being nice to her sees his niceness as worth more than theirs or a woman in her 30s who has lots of savings, a stable job and is in shape having a younger woman with a less stable career chosen over her. Both of them are offering something that they think makes them a good candidate, but it's not worth as much as they think it is to the people they are offering it to.

WHATGMG is also used in general after getting out of a relationship and is sometimes similar to 'bitches be crazy' i.e. a more generic frustration being expressed.

IMHO the thing that makes nice guys considered to be a problem and not vice-versa is the application. The nature of the idea favours+niceness=sex requires a specific girl. It's actually having to deal with them that makes them a problem and if they remained online just posting general statements like 'I'm a nice guy why can't I find a girl?' no one would actually care that much. It's the ones people deal with in real life that strip all sympathy and lead to online mockery, because lots of girls have actually had to deal with that guy.

WHATGMG is a general 'why can't I get a man?', if they switched into demanding specific men date them and fulfil the role they want them they'd become a real nuisance and be mocked, but since they're generally just articles, facebook posts etc. and can be scrolled past people don't actually have to deal with them.

Tl;dr: the difference is that nice guys can't just be scrolled past and have to be dealt with in real life; that's why people give a shit.

KrispyMcSockington · 2017-09-17T15:06:29+00:00

These articles treat men as facing a moral obligation to provide women with what women want, even at the cost of mens’ PlayStations, bands, and nights in Vegas. These articles treat the lack of attractive men as an attack on women, as a debt to be repaid, not merely a lack of opportunities for mutually beneficial transactions. Not as something confusing or disappointing or unfortunate, but as a wound inflicted upon women.

I can understand why nice guys bug women. These are unattractive men being nice and women must find a way to avoid fucking them, so they find bad stuff to talk about to justify hating on them.

But women demand men must change for them! Imagine a guy complaining that all the women around him are fat lazy sluts who don't want to do a minute of housework. Guys like that already get shat on for oppressing women with their opinions, but no one bats an eyelid at women telling men to give up their fun and change for women's convenience. Seriously, we should not be putting up with this attitude either.

If you want the kind of partner who meets your requirements, how about being the kind of person they would want to be with.

Butt-Factory · 2017-09-17T18:04:42+00:00

People complaining "where have all the good men/ women gone? " is nothing new. People have been whining about this for ages.

That said, the ones complaining are almost always no good themselves. There's no shortage of quality men and women, they're just not wasting their time with unworthy partners.

decoy88 · 2017-09-17T14:47:08+00:00

The equivalent of a "nice guy" is "men only want bitches". There is a whole sub, /r/nicegirls dedicated to that sort of stuff.

The equivalent of "where have all the good men gone?" is the guy past his physical prime who spend years having casual sex saying "why can't I find a good girl?"

Believe it or not, most women don't want a guy who had sex with tons of random women either. I know if a guy told me he had sex with a 100 women in the past and was now ready to settle down, I would be a hell of a lot more weary than if a met a guy who told me he only had a couple girlfriends in the past.

Hellothere_1 · 2017-09-17T11:28:00+00:00

I agree that both phenomenons are somewhat comparable. Where I disagree is when you say that you argue that BIANG isn't entitlement but WHATGMG is simply because such a thing is impossible to determine on a general basis.

You cannot determine the degree of entitlement of a person by a single frustrated sentence written in some Twitter feed.

For both statements I can easily imagine situations where it might be completely harmless or situations where it is a clear indicator of a deep seated sense of entitlement.

We can argue about which phenomnenon is worse all day but in the and that can really only be determined in a case by case basis.

SeemedGood · 2017-09-17T07:31:58+00:00

There's plenty of good men out there. Problem is many of them are unattractive.

trail22 · 2017-09-17T07:30:39+00:00

I disagree with them being equivalents. I do agree though WHATGMG comes from a place of entitlement.

Your idea of the BIANG is off

The unfortunate fact is that because many women prefer to be diplomatic over being honest (and women do in fact benefit from the positive prejudices which being honest would dispel), the “but you’re a nice guy” talk doesn’t mean what it actually says. What it means is “I don’t find you sexually attractive, in spite of the fact you’re a kind and polite person, and as such I don’t want to have a romantic relationship with you.”

This leaves men in a state of disillusionment and disappointment; didn’t they act precisely how they were told to act in order to be attractive?

The issue with nice guys is not men being told by women to do X and that X not working. If this were true most nice guys would just be acting more jerky or simply doing things they see are successful.

The real issue is some men have a hard time grappling with a society or sexual sphere that isn't morally guided or obligated. See, there is no sexual incentives to act moral or real emphasis on making virtuous or moral sexual decisions. You can if you want, but there's no consequence if you don't.

The nice guy doesn't comprehend this. He doesn't comprehend sexuality in a space outside of morality. He can't contemplate this girl he might be helping with her homework getting cum stuck in her throat from some dude at a party.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2017-09-17T18:33:03+00:00

[deleted]

decoy88 · 2017-09-18T08:40:32+00:00

There's no difference.

See subreddit posts of r/nicegirls vs. r/niceguys

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rulenumber303 · 2017-09-17T11:49:44+00:00

Do WHATGMG women see themselves as deserving of an “eligible” man? Perhaps, but only in a passive sense. Most emphatically they do not see themselves as having to earn such a man or of actually earning such a man.

The idea of "earning" a partner is just ridiculous. Finding a suitable and willing partner is a HUNT not a JOB.

[deleted] · 2017-09-17T12:49:06+00:00

CMV: * Sth obvious to which any opposition will be either very insane or very insubstantial * is terrible for this sub imo

[deleted] · 2017-09-17T22:53:54+00:00

I admittedly did not make it all the way through your argument and analysis because I was annoyed that despite its academic structure, it was very lacking in academic sources to support its arguments.

I found that your arguments regarding BIANG not satisfying the "entitlement" test to be pretty weak. For example, this sentence is basically all the proof you have for BIANG not satisfying the positive obligation test:

Look at how “Nice Guys” react when they’re accused of feeling like women actually owe them sex; they are confused by this accusation and deny it[...]

I mean, sure I've seen some men react this way but I've also seen some men react differently. Without studies or statistics backing up statements like the one above, your arguments aren't strong at all.

I will say that I do agree that WHATGMG is entitled, but I find both BIANG and WHATGMG to be entitled attitudes. Plenty of BIANG men that I've met have satisfied the criterion that you put forth in your test. I can't say which attitude is worse (although it's important to note that BIANG seems to lead to a lot of violence against women) but I can say that both attitudes are harmful and should be done away with.

EliteSpartanRanger · 2017-09-18T20:00:26+00:00

Both of them are equally entitled.

[deleted] · 2017-09-22T05:45:52+00:00

Can we just stop with this "entitlement" bollox?

Once you feel "entitled" or worthy around women you become sexy.

The problem with nice guys is we were wondering, almost asking women (subconsciously) if we are good enough?

Entitled man is a cocky alpha.

pinkgoldrose · 2017-09-17T22:28:07+00:00

Where Have All The Good Men Gone = I'd rather stay alone than date any of the guys I know

But I'm a Nice Guy = I want to date these girls, I'm better than their boyfriends, I deserve a girlfriend