Can we have a moratorium on "more alpha than TRP" posts too?

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards10 points11 points12 points 7 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

We're not saying you're losers or that we're more alpha in that thread.

I'm not more alpha than many people, including RPers. I admit it. I have shitty leadership skills and I'm still learning too. I have a lot more beta qualities than alpha qualities. I do have 1 alpha quality and that's that I don't care what people think of me. But I'm also someone who likes to help others out (which is apparently a beta trait, idk why), support others, I'm open with my emotions and I'm far from stoic. I don't claim to be more alpha than TRPers.

Based on what people say on PPD, both BP and RP, people seem to equate being alpha with being selfish (or at least having a lot of selfish traits) and that's not the kind of person I want to be. I'm human, so I have selfish traits, but those are traits I'm trying to get rid of or at least have less of, not traits that I'm trying to pick up and teach to other people or am proud of.

I also think TRP teaches leadership (aka dominance) in a very superficial manner that's not helpful. Also a lot of RP men want to learn dominance so that other people will admit that they're dominant. That's already a sign that they're not dominant and starting off the learning process on the wrong foot.

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You're just using more words to basically say the same thing.

No, I'm pointing out how the definition of "good" is highly context-dependent.

On TRP, advice is considered "good" if it aligns with the sub's stated goals; i.e. helping men get casual sex easily. "Good," as it is defined on TRP, has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with whether an idea is useful.
Everywhere else, advice is considered "good" if it aligns with mainstream ideas about morality. You're supposed to treat people right, be upfront and open, tell the truth, etc. "Good," as it is defined in the mainstream, is primarily concerned with morality.

No one on TRP is claiming that alpha is anywhere close to universally "good;" or, the definition of "good" used in the mainstream. Drug dealers are often cited as examples of alpha behavior. "Act like an asshole" is frequently used as shorthand for alpha behaviors. Cheating (or being party to someone else cheating) is commonly discussed as an action alpha males can get away with. It's absurd to claim that TRP worships alpha as universally good when there's so much evidence to the contrary.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Everywhere else, advice is considered "good" if it aligns with mainstream ideas about morality. You're supposed to treat people right, be upfront and open, tell the truth, etc. "Good," as it is defined in the mainstream, is primarily concerned with morality.

That's just not true. The word "good" doesn't always have to be used to mean "in line with mainstream morality" and I was never even using it that way myself when I said TRP equates "alpha" with "goodness."

If I say "this food is good" that doesn't mean I'm using it with regard to anything to do with morality. If one says "that is good advice" the more natural interpretation would be to assume that the advice is tailored to effectively meet whatever the stated goals is--it may include some element of morality or it may not. If I say "he is a good man," that context would include a moral premise.

When I described TRP as overly equating alpha with "good" and beta with "bad" the context was that alpha is always > beta. Alpha is almost always viewed positively whereas beta is almost viewed negatively (not in a moral sense though). That is what TRP does and it's exactly realistic.

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I agree with you to some extent - sometimes being selfish and focusing on yourself will free you up to help others, but in the context of relationships I think that unless the other person is actually using you and taking advantage of you (which you should then leave instead of playing these petty games), both partners should be more altruistic than selfish.

I know some husbands and wives that count everything. "Wife used $5 dollars today, so she owes me 5 dollars." "Husband did not do the dishes today, so he's going to have to do it 2 days in a row next time." "I spent 50 dollars for gift for husband and he only gave me a gift worth 25 dollars." I think that's horrible for a relationship, and RP tends to have that very transactional sense of a relationship that might not be that hyperbolic, but when I read RPers post they always say "this is what I'm giving to a relationship, this is what I want back" which isn't very far away from that mentality.

[–]ppdthrowawaiRed Pill1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I know some husbands and wives that count everything. "Wife used $5 dollars today, so she owes me 5 dollars."

I agree that keeping score is a bad way to promote your relationships. In fact, this is the generally stance of MRP. Outcome independence (brushing off negative behavior) and avoiding covert contracts (not being butthurt when you didn't get something nice in return for something you did) is an essential part of MRP.

when I read RPers post they always say "this is what I'm giving to a relationship, this is what I want back"

It is a common post topic. Here is some food for thought, though. Almost all of the time I have heard things like this IRL, the dude was contributing the vast majority of the share of work in the relationship. They are typically pretty chill guys married to bitchy, shrewd, women who will jump on anything that offends them. They are typically givers married to takers. Hell, I was in this situation.

I would say I did about 80% of everything in our relationship from the cleaning, cooking, laundry, and dishes, to any effort towards dates and romantic situations. I distinctly remember a time my ex asked if she could help me with my laundry as I typically did both of ours and always did my own. She turned it into a weapon a week or two later to use as an example of aaalllll the shit she does for me. It was funny when I dumped her, she told me how fucked I would be without her and all her help, only to find that my house would be clean for weeks, dishes had to be done a quarter as often, and the amount of free time I had from chores that didn't need to be done anymore was absolutely insane.

So when I hear a guy talking like that, I remember when I was in that situation. I remember being told to man up and just take it, to work harder, to suck it up and stop complaining and things would just work themselves out. I remember how it felt to wonder "When is all the good stuff going to be my turn to be treated nicely?" Fuck that noise. When I hear that shit now I say, you do you and she can go fuck herself if she doesn't like it. People who talk like that are much more likely to be total pussies than huge assholes who aren't doing their fair share, so I tend to believe them.

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Here's an analogy.

American guy is learning French. Let's call him Y. Y is learning it from English Hollywood movies where there are French characters who speak French. His French grammar is not perfect and his pronunciation is off sometimes, as well as some of his concepts about French culture (because he's learning from Hollywood and you know how inaccurate Hollywood portrayals of other languages and cultures are).

However, Y goes on to an internet forum to teach other people how to speak French and acts as if he was an expert French speaker. His internet forum consists of other people who think the same way. He also teaches people how to be French (based on Hollywood stereotypes). Instead of starting with more feasible goals such as "starting to learn to have a basic conversation in French" or "learning a bit about French culture" he immediately says "I am learning to be French". People tell him "but you shouldn't start by trying to be French, but to know about France first, because if you start by trying to learn to be French you're not going to succeed and you're just going to become a caricature of Hollywood stereotypes" (kinda like how TRPers perceive being alpha). And then Y says "no, learning to be French is the best way to start learning to be French. Learning about French culture and language is just a watered down concept that doesn't reflect what my internet forum is trying to teach."

example of a TRP quote that reflects this

Saying I want to learn to be dominant is the actual first step to learning to be dominant. "I want to learn leadership skills" is a watered down, neutral concept. Stop trying to dilute TRP's message.

When an actual native French speaker talks to Y, and tells him that his assumptions about France such as that everyone eats Escargot for breakfast, lunch and dinner, are not true, he says "of course I know not all French are like that but I'm talking about the vast majority here". And then the French person says "but not even a large majority of French people eat Escargot everyday for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Every French person likes different foods." And Y continues acting as if every French person likes escargot and eat it everyday (ie "you're just an outlier if you don't eat Escargot everyday") and goes back to the internet to say "They're just not taking me seriously because I had to learn French language and culture from a book, because I'm not naturally French." No, it's because you believe in many misconceptions and generalizations that people have told you aren't true, and you insist on it despite many people who are more knowledgeable on the topic (such as the knowledge women have about their own sexual nature, wants, needs and expectations in a relationship) telling you it's not true.

Here's an example of "you're just an outlier"

I see a lot of times when RP men describe their experiences and theories about women, BP/PP women will jump in to explain how they aren't like that, and none of their friends are

was what if women in ppd are outliers

Now compare it to an American who actually wants to learn actual French language and culture rather than stereotype an entire culture by Hollywood norms. He doesn't act like he knows more about France than he actually does and doesn't generalize the French people by Hollywood He is also learning it from a book but people won't be annoyed with him and many French people would be happy that he is learning about their culture and language.

Edit: changed hypothetical name to generic letter Y so that if there is an actual redpiller here named Joe it doesn't sound personal

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Unless you're from France and have spoken French since birth, you will never ever really know French, or French people.

In the end of my example I literally gave the example of an American who's learning French without using Hollywood stereotypes. I bet you his hypothetical French speaking skills is better than the first guy Y in the example too! When he makes friends with French people, he makes friends with them as individuals, rather than assuming that all French people fall under a certain set of stereotypes.

That's how most blue pillers learn (believe it or not we're not all naturals! I certainly am not).

A red piller would be someone who doesn't like escargot who pretends to like escargot because he wants to make friends in France and believe that all French people like escargot. (For example a nerdy person who pretends to be an alpha jock because he thinks that all women like alpha jocks).

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Firstly, I assume you're referring to my post about the women on PPD being outliers... I didn't make that point just to have an excuse to dismiss their arguments. I think it's a reasonable thing to point out that women on PPD who use themselves as counter-examples to TRP's claims are probably not the typical women men are meeting and dating in real life. In other words, when women here tell me they aren't "like that" I believe them. Is that so bad?

Also, the rest of your comment is just more of the same cheap caricature of the "try-hard wannabe" assumption I talked about in my other post. Are there a lot of try-hard newbs on TRP who have a simplistic understanding of the complex subtleties of TRP theory? Of course. And those of us who have been around for a while and have mostly integrated TRP in to our lives are constantly trying to educate these guys to have a more nuanced understanding. Plus, it's the Internet, there are anyways going to be simple-minded dilettantes in any online community.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I didn't make that point just to have an excuse to dismiss their arguments.

A lot of RPers do but I can't quote them all because I can't find all the posts and I also don't have time to list them all.

women on PPD who use themselves as counter-examples to TRP's claims are probably not the typical women men are meeting and dating in real life.

So you're dismissing their arguments because you don't think they're representative of the average woman and therefore not helpful to TRP's one size fits all strategy.

Are there a lot of try-hard newbs on TRP who have a simplistic understanding of the complex subtleties of TRP theory

Some of the people I've debated on PPD have been around for a long time and are still calling people outliers when people disagree with them and exhibiting the qualities I listed in my post.

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Read theory

Depends on what theory. Evo psych has been disproved plenty of times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology has a list of a few common criticisms

Lift

No problem with that.

Observe women around them

There's a statement that says "like attracts like", so observing women around you (who are probably around you because they have similar views, outlooks on life or have something else in common with yourself) will only prove confirmation biases. That's why anecdotal evidence isn't taken as seriously as other forms of evidence. I read anecdotal evidence from both RP and BP and it seems like RP meets more AWALT women whereas BP meets more women who don't fall under conventional norms, such as poly women, etc. I think the true percentage of both AWALT and nonconventional women are much lower than both RP and BP (respectively) say, but they (both RP and BP) meet people who have similar views as themselves.

approach as many as possible

This isn't a good way to meet women that you're going to be happy with. Your goal in meeting women isn't to date the entire gender, which is why while certain generalizations may apply to a majority or a large portion of women, it doesn't really help out a guy who's trying to find the one for him. There are 3.5 billion women in the world. You aren't going to date or sleep with all of them. Even a player who sleeps with 100 women - that is less than 0.0001% of the number women in the world.

RP encourages everyone to do the same generic thing rather than encouraging each person to play to his own strengths and find women who appreciate who he is. You can see that a majority of the RP userbase are nerdy guys who try to be the jock so they can hit on cheerleaders rather than seeking out girls who like nerdy guys. That doesn't encourage men to be happy, which is one of my beefs with RP theory.

then they read books

agreed, as long as they're books that actually help you learn french rather than more stereotypes.

watch French films

French films are much better for learning French than Hollywood films. Learning about women from porn is like learning French from American films that don't do much research beforehand (like most of mainstream Hollywood)

try to meet French people in their communities.

Yes but they don't have to act in a stereotypical way that they believe will appeal to ALL French people. (which is what AWALT is)

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I think learning game does make you a better person. Game is just the ability to smoothly navigate the emotional/interpersonal aspect of a social interaction. Everyone has ideas about how to behave in certain social situations. For example, ask anyone for advice on how to do well in an interview and they'll gladly give you a list of specific behaviors and mentalities: firm handshake, smile, eye contact, ask questions to show genuine interest, dress nice, bring a few copies of your resume to show that you're prepared and serious about it, don't wear that tie it's too loud, wear this tie because it looks professional, etc, etc. The same applies to how to make friends, how to handle workplace drama, how to socialize at a wedding... Even women sit around and discuss how to get their man to be more romantic or committed, or how to get guys to notice you, etc. The only time people take issue with this kind of stuff is when it's men discussing how to be better with women, then it's all "that's manipulative, just be yourself!"

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[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RPSigmaStigmaRecovering romantic[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Princeso_Bubblegum☭ The real red pill ☭0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Their full... written stories about how they 'punish' their wives by withdrawing attention/affection and only giving these NECESSARY sentiments when the wife 'behaves' (usually stops arguing/gives them sexual gratifaction of any kind) is completely abusive. Manipulating someones behavior by emotionally/mentally or physically hurting them and then 'rewarding' them by not hurting them anymore is manipulative & abusive, as you are directly and maliciously hurting your partner for your own means. They give tons of field reports where they in-depth describe this abuse and lots of threads and petty comments where they think rape should be legalise AND insist on men overwhelming women with physical contact, don't take 'no' for an answer- there was a recent story I read where he decided she was playing 'hard to get' by saying she didn't want it but EVENTUALLY she gave in-- and no, this isn't the only story where they've written off rape as 'she was playing hard to get with all these no's but eventually agreed'. It's fucked. The whole thing is fucked. Whatever good intentions they pretended they had at the begginning are gone. Now it's a stream of AWALT, and 'women are children'.

[–]returnofthemackX 3 points3 points3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RPSigmaStigmaRecovering romantic[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RPSigmaStigmaRecovering romantic[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ellyxxx0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RPSigmaStigmaRecovering romantic[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Princeso_Bubblegum☭ The real red pill ☭0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Princeso_Bubblegum☭ The real red pill ☭0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Can we have a moratorium on "more alpha than TRP" posts too?
Author	RPSigmaStigma
Upvotes	8
Comments	183
Date	October 19, 2016 1:52 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/587tea/can_we_have_a_moratorium_on_more_alpha_than_trp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/can-we-have-a-moratorium-on-more-alpha-than-trp.272289 https://theredarchive.com/post/272289