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Is It A Bad Idea To Stop Initiating Sex Entirely?

by loveisconditional | November 01, 2019 | askMRP

15 upvotes

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Whenever I initiate, my girl will either enthusiastically go along with my advances, or she'll sometimes just comply with some starfish sex. I'd definitely prefer her enthusiasm, but really I'd just like to fuck her and I'll still take that if she submits to it.

Unfortunately, just semi-recently I've found out that me still fucking her during star-fish really upsets her and makes her self-reportedly feel used and uncared for. She claims to have lost comfort with me as of late and all I've been getting lately is starfish sex.

So my question is, would never initiating on my part, and allowing her to only ever initiate be a smart move (given that she actually initiates at some point)? I want more than starfish, and yeah I'd like to keep her comfort with me as she's outright said she's lost a good degree of it lately.

I probably shouldn't have done this, but I did verbally agree with her to not initiate for a few weeks and only allow her to do it when she's pining for it. Hopefully she does (it'll show her true attraction towards me). Anyhow, what do you guys think, would doing this be a wise way for men who remain attractive (if that is me) to stop having issues over sex? Would it be a bad idea if I did this beyond a few weeks? Just looking for some input here.

I have of course been lifting, my frame still needs some work, have been lifting 11 years now before I ever found TRP. Am working on improvement in all areas of my life.

EDIT:

So far I've got nothing from posting here. Responses are all: "DO THE WORK" "FAGGOT" "SHE ISN'T ATTRACTED TO YOU" "FRAME FRAME FRAME" "RREEEEEEEEEEE"

Great help guys. Frame. Isn't attracted to me. Cool shit. Anything else?


Post Information
Title Is It A Bad Idea To Stop Initiating Sex Entirely?
Author loveisconditional
Upvotes 15
Comments 111
Date 01 November 2019 08:20 PM UTC (8 months ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/293630
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/dq9s2j/is_it_a_bad_idea_to_stop_initiating_sex_entirely/
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Comments

[–]marv86kw35 points36 points  (7 children) | Copy

You already handed her your balls. What are you asking us for?

[–]cornerofficemouth23 points24 points  (16 children) | Copy

Diagnosis: Lack of desire.

Prescription: Become the man she will desire.

Takes work, though. You lift, but frame is at least as important. She can see your flawless physique and get interested, but dry the fuck up when you open your dumb mouth. Work on that as much for 11 years and shit will change.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy

I'd agree. My frame isn't solid. I'm not new to TRP and I've done a good bit of reading. But yeah I definitely have work to do in frame. I'll have solid frame a few days (I'm convinced) but then I'll definitely up the sweetness and softness and just wanting to supplicate to her way too much. Goes in circles repeatedly. Don't seem to know how to balance the both as advised in MMSLP.

I'm working on it -- but I agree completely.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights25 points26 points  (13 children) | Copy

You are confused about frame.

Sweetness and Softness is NOT supplication or a lack of frame.

When I gently touch my wife's cheek, look deeply into her eyes and just breath. I let her feel my strong but gentle presence and she literally melts into me. She nestles her head into the crook of my arm at my shoulder. She bends her knees to make herself smaller. She softens her voice and raises the pitch and makes it sound like a small child's because she wants to be wrapped physically, and emotionally inside my frame. In that moment of tenderness it is my frame that is dominant. It is strong. It is, in fact overpowering.

There was no supplication in that moment. Only my love wrapping her up like a warm blanket.

Your frame is reality. It is how you intend for the world to operate at every moment. In every interaction. It is not a weekly, daily, hourly or even minute by minute thing. It is only found in the present moment.

You may in this present moment cast a warm and safe future for yourself and invite your woman to join you. You may recall the glorious moments of the past you shared with your woman to rekindle in her heart the fire she had ... In the present ... But it is all in the present.

She will never carry a torch for you a few weeks from now. She can only carry a torch for you, right here ... Right now.

Your woman is like a fireplace. Your Masculine Presence is the fuel. Your Frame is the match. Your Game is the act of lighting the match and tossing it on the fuel. Lacking any one of those will mean there is no possibility of creating a burning fire inside her.

You are a man looking at your woman saying I will wait weeks for you to give me warmth. Yet you do not provide what is necessary to create that fire.

You say you "are not new to TRP." You've done "some reading."

What is clear is you haven't done the work and expect us to give you a magic answer.

You have the answer in front of you. Do the work.

[–]Goobergus_Gubbins0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

My wife does all that, affectionate and intimate, then has zero interest in draining my balls by any method. Intimacy does not equal sexual arousal.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I suspect there's more going on there under the covers for you on the "draining balls." front.

You are absolutely correct, though. Intimacy, Commitment and Passion are three very different things. Confusing those is perilous. Understanding how they are different and how they interact with each other can bring a great amount of clarity. Understanding how to get and give all three is the goal.

[–]Goobergus_Gubbins0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for your reply. I'm not downplaying the value she brings. Drama-free affection, loyalty, and a high level of competency aren't exactly falling from the sky around this place. What I'm trying to say is that a core takeaway from this forum and the sidebar is this: Choreplay gets you a clean house, fresh oil, and a plate of food to eat. You should do it for that reason. It does not make mama's panties moist in any way. After a number years of friendly but lazy shagging intitiated mostly by my wife, one of my next steps in taking MRP seriously is to learn to initiate in a way that gets her motor going. That is my core deficiency in game, although there's a long list I'm working on as well.

[–]RedPillGlasses-2 points-1 points  (9 children) | Copy

You talk pretty.

It’s all true though, even though you sound gay as fuck saying it.

[–]reigorius1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

You realise this is askMRP where men are working hard to find their way back.

OP is spot on, at least you acknowledged that. But only retards, and not-out-of-the-closet-yet make a connection with faggotry and it's a sure sign of ignorance and stupidity.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

It's a difficult task talking about Tenderness in your frame and wrapping it in the language of a locker room so I opted to simply make the point with congruent language.

Tenderness is single tool in a much larger arsenal guys need to employ. Most guys here really need to up their Alpha which is the hard ass, their beta frames don't have. They've already got the tenderness tool in their belt.

That said /u/redpillglasses is correct to point out the language I chose to use and it's use in this context. The language was romance novelesque and ONLY works when the dominant frame is already established. She wants you hard as fuck to everyone BUT her. The soft gooey shit she wants reserved for herself after you've proven you're hard.

My comment above was to point out that frame isn't tied to being a hard ass or tender. How you execute your life and the frame you deploy is a choice you make when you decide to make it and who you decide to make it with.

I tore OP a couple new holes hole further down in the comments where he admits he's basically raping his wife by pushing for sex she doesn't want. Most guys here, myself included are / were in that position when they arrive.

That shit deserves all the locker room we can muster to snap a guy out of the stupor he's in. No-one wants to think they're raping their wives. We usually take that as an overtly violent act of power. Archwinger's post in TRP on Unhappy Wives having to have sex with a Beta dispells that myth.

There's a time and place for everything. Talking pretty ... And like a drill sergeant. She needs you to be able to do both. For most guys ... New to here ... Way more drill sergeant is needed.

Don't be the bitch that loses sight of that.

[–]reigorius1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Thanks for the reply, but I was triggered by the needless faggot name calling that this sub is rife with.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Consider the fact that your triggered state is a hook that controls you.

Frame requires your ability to remain in control when all the world (including your wife) tries to impose its will on you.

Is it possible that the "needless faggotry" is actually an innoculation shot you can use to help reduce your ability to be triggered.

Is it possible that it is actually a gift given by men to you which you can use to begin your journey toward a more emotionally balanced place.

Food for thought ...

[–]reigorius-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hm, my nephew is homosexual and that doesn't bother me the slightest. What does is the fact he has been beat up too many times for the simple fact of being himself. The unjustified hate being spewed towards homosexuals literally everywhere is my hook, my trigger. It keeps the wheel of violence in motion.

I know you mean well, but there is no gift in calling someone a faggot, I can only see stupidity and ignorance.

[–]i-am-the-prize1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's a difficult task talking about Tenderness in your frame and wrapping it in the language of a locker room so I opted to simply make the point with congruent language.

I thought you wrote well, +1 (reminded of David Deida, The Way Of The Superior Man )

And the contrast between stoicism and showing some tenderness works. the "10 second kiss" works when contrasted with a normally mission focused demeanor - from a high value male.

[–]RedPillGlasses0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

She wants you hard as fuck to everyone BUT her.

100% agree. It’s like every woman wants the long-haired muscular guy from those cheesy romance novel covers.

Only she gets the gooey shit from you. Good call. 👍

[–]RedPillGlasses0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Commenter sounds like he’s writing a romance novel. But you liked it, so maybe you can be my side bitch next weekend.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is the best and most constructive comment I've seen.

Genuinely appreciate it. Will work on some more things.

Have begun to make a "list of all of my unattractive traits" as another user has suggested me in a different comment.

Cheers guys.

[–]fannyfire10 points11 points  (10 children) | Copy

If I told my wife that I wasn’t going to fuck her for three weeks she would laugh hysterically. She knows I can’t keep my hands off her and she knows what I’m capable of.

You realize that telling your wife that you’re not going to fuck her is telling her that you’re not attracted to her, right? Because the only way a man can not fuck his wife for three weeks is if she’s ugly, bed ridden but even then she still had a hand and mouth or and likely your case, she’s disgusted by you.

You can probably out lift me just like anybody else in this sub but you my friend are why I don’t give a shit about how much any faggot in this sub can lift.

You need to be your harshest critique. Why is your wife not giving you unsolicited blow jobs and allowing you to fuck her brains out? Why is she giving you starfish sex? Why the fuck did your wife allow you to agree to not trying to fuck her for nearly a month!?

The answer is simple. She’s not attracted to you and you likely suck ass in bed. You got your physique covered. That’s the easy part. You got to work on your attitude and unfuck whatever it is that you’re fucking up.

I’m no fucking saint but god damn dude. Get your balls back and put them where they belong.

[–]loveisconditional[S] -5 points-4 points  (9 children) | Copy

All the steroids must have shrunk them aha.

But no jokes aside I'm still thinking she'll initiate. It's only been 2 days since I said I'd do this. Don't think I'll go nearly a month without sex (if I do I'll lose my shit). I've still been squeezing at her tits and slapping her ass occasionally but yeah I haven't done any hard initiating.

Maybe it is an attraction issue... visual or otherwise.. not sure... ty for the comment.

[–]Morpheus_TNTB2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

After some GOLDEN advice you're still too dense to "get" what's going on. Is it going to take a formal rape charge from your dependa before you realize she doesn't want to fuck you? Getting jacked in the gym is good but you're still a bitch in the home. Stop being a little bitch and she may want to fuck you again.

[–]fannyfire1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Yeah, okay but what’s your end game?

How is not fucking your wife going to make your marriage better?

Are you posting in OYS?

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Not posting in OYS yet. Made this account just for that. Will this coming Tuesday.

Not fucking her isn't the goal. Knowing she wants to fuck me is the goal. Her initiating (and hopefully often) would be a surefire judge of that.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

Fucking hell. You can't get 5 phrases out without betraying how much of a faggot you are.

I've never replied twice to the same post in askMRP before. But I have to do this. I'm not doing this for you OP. You're more than a Faggot. I'm at the point where I'm thinking you're a Troll as well or some fucking combination of both. A "Fagroll."

I'm doing this as way to educate the other men who come along and find this comment. Maybe they will learn what OP clearly hasn't and seem intent on ignoring.

Not posting in OYS yet ... Will this coming Tuesday.

What does waiting until three days from now do? It's just you blowing off the work need to do to sort yourself. Why? Because you're a weak-ass ego invested bitch who doesn't want to get his ass hsnded to him. How do I know that? Roll the next quote ...

Knowing she wants to fuck me is the goal.

OP is living his life in his girls frame. I know this because he said so. He wants to know his girl wants to fuck him. His Ego is tied to her approval of him as a male. He wants to know he's fuckable. This alone makes him unfuckable.

He's by definition raising her above him and giving her the right of approval over one of his two most fundamental physiological imperatives. The right to live and the right to procreate.

NO-ONE, EVER gets that opportunity. She may choose to not fuck him. That's her loss. But no woman ever wants to be with a guy who will hand over his fundamental rights to something as temporal as the whims of her libido. That is repulsive to her and should be repulsive to him.

This is why being butthurt when she gives you a hard No is such a turn off to her. Consider the alternative outcome. If you don't give a shit about her response ... That means she has no power over you. Which means you must have alternatives ... Which means you have less to lose than she does ... Which means you're in a stronger position than she is ... Which makes you valuable to her.

Read that last paragraph 10 more times.

Kill your fucking Ego!

Her initiating (and hopefully often) would be a surefire judge of that.

Women are responsive. They expect you to initiate most of the time. If OP had read the sidebar he'd know that. More evidence of being a faggot.

Will women initiate? Yes! My wife just left for a business trip. 36 hours beforehand she started initiating hard. Why? After we fucked like rabbits she looked at me and asked if that would hold me over until she got back. The sex wasn't for me. It's to protect her flank while she's gone.

When your woman initiates it's not just about you. It's about her as much as you. She drains your balls because you're a high value man that SHE doesn't want to lose. It's about HER loss as much or even more than it is about your value. If she's not draining your balls it's because she's not worried about losing you. Why? Because you're unfuckable and she knows other women can see that.

Who wants to fuck the unfuckable?

Would you fuck you?

Now that we've covered this point ... Let's go back to a previous quote from OP and look at it again.

Knowing she wants to fuck me is the goal.

Let's say, unlike OP, you actually do the work and get to the point where your wife is actively draining your balls. Then what? If you make fucking a woman your mission, the moment you're actively getting fucked ... Even to the point that she's intiating ... You're aimless. Now what are you going to do Einstein?

Pussy is not the goal. It is not the mission. Your Mission is the mission. Pussy is just a side effect of having an awesome fucking mission that a woman wants to be part of. Oh yeah ... That's in the sidebar too.

Do you see how there's layers to this shit and reasons we say read the fucking sidebar? If you just dive in and do the work ... It'll sink in. If it doesn't, THEN come here and ask how something applies. THAT'S the kind of question I'd like to respond to.

This guy is full of excuses and shows essentially zero effort in his replies that he's actually trying to figure this shit out.

You post here because you want an answer to your specific problem because you feel like your situation is special. It's not. I guarantee it. We know that and know you're trying to figure this shit out but if you show absolutely no self reflection or intent on improving yourselves, such as OP and the shit show you see here, you'll get the flamethrower you deserve.

You've been warned.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah your diarrhea of the mouth and assumptions about my effort in life beyond a reddit post makes me no more obligated to write you out a novel in response.

You can think what you'd like.

I however have read the sidebar, am not new to this information, am lifting, and am working on my life mission (which she isn't my mission).

You're right about me still attaching my ego to sex, don't think I'll ever squash that -- and honestly I don't want to. I get that's what's advised by MRP. But again, I don't care. The level of effort I'm willing to put in just to fuck my wife doesn't extend endless lengths. Do I want to fuck her and have her be enthusiastic about it all the time? Fuck yes. Am I going to STFU all the time, not be upset if sexually rejected, play mind games constantly, and never mate guard? Probably not -- and mostly because I don't want to.

Keep throwing around the word faggot like it's supposed to offend me lol. I'm making changes for the better but I'm not doing all that bullshit just to bust a nut. If she wants to leave, she can leave. I'll put basic effort in but I'm not crossing the Earth.

Hate me.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good. I got to you.

Just like your woman is getting to you.

I don't hate you.

You CAN squash the ego. THAT my friend is the real work here at MRP. Taking that on will pay off not just with your woman ... but "assholes like me" who write or say shit that yanks your chain.

Do you really want the world to be able to yank you around like that?

My guess is "No." But only you can do the work.

Lifting doesn't help there. Your mission doesn't help there.

STFU is just the first step down that road. It's about gaining control over your mind and emotions, so you gain control over who yanks you around and who doesn't.

The word faggot is just a tool, to get guys angry enough to actually want to do something. Are you angry enough yet?

[–]kendallb1831 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Second guy to call it an attraction issue

[–]JoeBuckYourslf1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I can’t even take you seriously.

God damn dude.

“Squeezing ah her tits” and “slapping her ass occasionally”

This is fucking hilarious.

[–]loveisconditional[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

uh huh.

next.

[–]JCX_Pulse10 points11 points  (8 children) | Copy

You’ll hear this often here: don’t listen to what she says, but to what she does.

You bent the knee when mommy told you to comply, this would have been a great opportunity for A/M.

As others have said, your frame is shit. You folded in the face of her shit test and failed miserably. Now you need to work toward recovering the respect you lost with her.

[–]loveisconditional[S] -2 points-1 points  (7 children) | Copy

As said in my initial post, I know I likely shouldn't have done this. Also I'm the one who advised this as a solution. She also genuinely has been quite starfish lately and "feeling used and uncared for" is her reasoning for it.

We genuinely have NO fights in our relationship over any topic ASIDE from sex. I'm actively trying to find a solution to this. Again, I'm the one who suggested only letting her initiate, however I said I'd only do it for a few weeks.

Honestly I genuinely am beginning to think that bein cocky/funny isn't the solution in this particular situation. I genuinely think comfort is the problem. She's not just a fwb or plate or one-night fuck. I'm stuck with her unless I decide to divorce.

I'm genuinely thinking she needs more beta = comfort = oxytocin rather than a response like "aha, sure you don't enjoy getting fucked senselessly" or whatever your amused mastery response would have been to her apparently feeling used...

I think she's actually being honest about this particular thing. However I might be wrong. I'm just not led to believe so...

[–]JCX_Pulse9 points10 points  (6 children) | Copy

I read some of your other responses and they line up with this one issue: stop trying to analyze and/or understand her. You are a man, you run off logic, she runs off feelz. Trying to logically diagnose the issue is going to drive you fucking crazy.

Just stop. You know you fucked up. Now reset.

You’re making pussy the mission and you look needy and desperate to her as you negotiate sexual treaties.

I’m not convinced that she isn’t attracted to you as some have said, but I know her attraction to you took a hit after this incident.

I know and understand women don’t value physical attributes as much as a man does in a woman, so your 11 years of lifting don’t matter for shit. You need to work on the insides.

You haven’t done any OYS, who knows how much sidebar you’ve read, or the history of shit that lead you to this forum. MRP isn’t a quick fix. It’s a way of life.

[–]SBIIIRed Fucking Commando4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

MRP isn’t a quick fix. It’s a way of life.

I'm going to start a t-shirt range. I'm stealing this, along with Foxnasty's classic "Don't fear Chad, Become Chad".

Classic, although ironic considering who posted it.

[–]JCX_Pulse2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Word, I’m going to have to start a new subreddit r/DRP - divorced red pill - but steal away, just give me a discount

[–]FoxShitNasty831 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Wanker ;)

[–]SBIIIRed Fucking Commando18 points19 points  (8 children) | Copy

If you want to fuck, then fuck.

Jesus Christ - this shit ain't rocket science.

In the meantime, she's only giving you starfish and telling you when and when you should have sex because of one simple reason.. SHE DOESN'T WANT TO FUCK YOU.

You've given us nothing to go on as to the why, so go figure that out for yourself, then fix it.

[–]hack3geRed Beret5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nope it is rocket science - everyone thinks it’s some magic formula to make your wife fuck you so they dance and dance and dance.

It’s a fucking waste to find this place and end up like this.

[–]kendallb1837 points8 points  (12 children) | Copy

You wanted to end starfish sex, so you gave an ultimatum with hidden expectations (covert contract) to a woman who isnt currently attracted to you, and are asking us if it will work?!

First, golden rule, STFU. You lost your power when you told her you wanted to see if SHE will initiate. You showed your hand that you are testing her and now she knows it. Ultimatums and pressure for sex are repulsive to women. You just put the duty into duty sex. Hopefully she is attracted enough to you she doesnt just cut you off completely and you start crying to us about how your terrible experiment blew up in your face.

Proper thing would have been to not say shit to her, realize the dynamics at play here, her loss of attraction. Stop initiating and settling for duty sex, realize there needs to be a change but it's you that needs the change not her. To do that you would have put effort in reading the material, in your case MMSLP, learn how to game your wife like ALL THE TIME and make sex and sexual advances fun and playful again without any expectations. Preferably all the while lifting and becoming physically attractive again.

Welcome to the cold sting of hypergamy and the female spirit. Read more, experiment less, and post here before you do anything irrational again to be sure your on the right path before doing something we all can see was clearly (and hopefully you can too now) was an epic mistake.

[–]loveisconditional[S] -1 points0 points  (11 children) | Copy

I think you've slightly misunderstood me. She basically feels borderline raped by me if I'm to be perfectly clear. Her comfort with me is decently gone according to her. I've misinterpreted her hard no's as soft no's MORE THAN ONCE and fucked her anyway.

I'm pretty sure she's sexually uncomfortable with me now due to this. I'm not testing her either. I'm just trying to get her more comfortable with fucking me again as she claims to feel completely used and uncared for and as if it's like I just want to use her as a huge sex toy.

I never said "I want to see if you will initiate" it was moreso "I'll stop initiating for a few weeks, and you can do so whenever you feel comfortable".

This has been going on awhile now.. her feeling used with me bypassing her no's (as it seems everytime she gives a no it's a hard no).

Lost at what to do here... Not entirely convinced its an attraction problem...

[–]kendallb1833 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Everything you wrote screams attraction problem. I'm not going to get into an internet debate, I think you can see the general consensus here. If she was attracted to you shes be throwing her pussy at you, not giving you no. A woman can easily friendzone her husband. Which if you know about the friendzone you know it's where they put emotional sexless relationships in their mind. Women dont friendzone guys they wanna fuck, they fuck them. Wouldnt you feel disgusted if you had to have sex with an overly obese snuggle tooth Sally? Almost feel raped? Having sex with someone your not attracted to is all the feelings of rape... think about it. How's it really much different?

You want her to want to fuck you... by definition attraction is someone who wants to fuck you. How the FUCK is this not about attraction... what in the hell else is it? Listen to what ever excuses she gives you if you want or the excuses your rationalizing in your own head why she isnt fucking you. Maybe she REALLY DOES only have a stomach ache the moment you try having sex everytime. Or it's way more simple that you are repulsive to her, she feels gross having sex with you and resentment and regret grows in her every time she does it out of principle, JUST LIKE YOU WOULD if you started having to fuck someone who you thought was a great friend, great company but just was ugly as fuck.

Guys who make a transformation using TRP get attractive, their wives suddenly stop saying no and they litterally can caveman bang their wives anytime they want and theres never a no. Your doing things you wouldnt do to even a girl you just met and were trying to court... to your own wife. It's just your turn means your always trying to game her to keep her the same exact game you run to get a new girl. You build attraction THEN comfort. Let's say you met a girl you have the balls to try and fuck. Youd never tell her you arent going to initiate sex and you wanna see if she wants it first and only if she starts it you'll have sex... youd never try to fuck a girl who's already friendzoned you while your watching super sappy movies together snuggling. You certainly wouldnt go around fucking a girl who is clearly not consenting. All that this would blow your chances with any human with a vagina. Stop doing shit that's unattractive and start being someone your wife wants to fuck. I gave you advice on a book the describes in a marriage what a woman sees as attractive and how to keep doing those things to keep your SMV up high enough your wife finds you hot and irresistible. I dont know how to get you to see it any clearer, hopefully the other comments on here with value will help also show you the picture. If you say I'm doing X and she doesnt like it... again by definition that means it isnt attractive to her. So list all the different things you think she wont sleep with you and I simply call that a list of unattractive traits you have. Fix those as a start. Then start doing what TRP teaches are attractive things. Getting in shape, passing shit tests, STFU, have your own hobbies and life, have frame, stop having covert contracts (probably havent read the sidebar to know what that is), stop giving ultimatums, make her want you then when you fuck (cause shes wet for you) then fuck her hard and make it feel as good as chad would (primal, pounding, wild monkey sex) so she wants more.

Tldr, people fuck people they find attractive, people feel repulsed fucking people they arent attracted to, this is exactly what your post describes is happening. Everything you listed in your original post and your comment to me are examples and examples of unattractive things, attitudes, and behaviora you've done that by TRP standards are really unattractive things for a male to do. Your wife agrees, she told you herself when she said "No".

[–]teaandtalk4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

She basically feels borderline raped by me

I've misinterpreted her hard no's as soft no's MORE THAN ONCE and fucked her anyway.

No wonder she feels that way. This is why people think TRP is pro rape. You violated her trust when she explicitly told you no. If you can turn a soft no into a yes, that's one thing, but going for it anyway is a different thing.

I don't know if this is resolvable, or if it even should be. Stopping initiating until you actually understand consent sounds like a damn good start.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

It's difficult though.

She'll say no, but really sometimes it means "maybe" and then other times she'll say no, and it means "absolutely no" and both times I've gone anyways and done it without knowing she actually meant "absolutely no" a few of the times.

I don't end up learning about it until later.

I really am still not fully convinced this is an attraction problem, but genuinely a distrust and lack of comfort problem. It is rapey. Wasn't ever my intention.

But in womanspeak: no doesn't mean no, and doesn't mean yes. I even brought this up to her at one point and I saw her thinking it over in her head and she just laughed at her own ridiculousness. It's completely true how complicated she makes it -- still doesn't prevent there being a problem though.

I basically have raped her, multiple times, in her eyes, and unintentionally, and she doesn't feel comfortable with me because of it. It's either that, or she truly is just using this as a long-winded way to avoid having to fuck me as she truly isn't attracted to me.

I'm led to believe it's a comfort problem, but hell, still really could be an attraction problem...

[–]teaandtalk0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Sounds like a comfort problem to me. She no longer trusts you to respect her consent, because you have not done so. It only takes once to break her trust, and you somehow fucked up and did it again. If you were my husband, that would be enough to divorce you.

​

On further thought, I wouldn't stop initiating entirely, (knowing that your husband desires you is part of comfort) but you really need to pay attention to her cues as well as her words. If it's not a 'hell yes', stop. The last thing you need now, if you want to maintain a relationship with this woman, is to keep cajoling her into unwanted sex, even if she technically says yes.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Definitely agree with this. No clue why others couldn't get this point. Was the reason I've taken a break from initiating to begin with.

Was never my intention to disregard her no, but yeah it's happened more than once. I care enough to give her some space. The rapey part is the whole reason I think it's a comfort part to begin with. She was quite giddy with me just a month ago...

[–]gvntr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

> But in womanspeak: no doesn't mean no, and doesn't mean yes.

It's Powertalk:

" Not only does no not always mean no, "No means no" doesn't mean "no means no". It doesn't mean "All men must ask permission before mating". "No mean no" means "If you can't both discern the difference between no that means no, and no that means yes, AND you can't discern that 'no means no' doesn't apply to everyone, then we want YOU to be in the group of men that asks permission before mating. Because your lack of powertalk skills is unattractive, and we want to make sure that you don't try to sex us without first giving us an escape valve that we can use without looking mean."
[from TRP]

[–]SBIIIRed Fucking Commando4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I've misinterpreted her hard no's as soft no's MORE THAN ONCE and fucked her anyway.

Sounds a bit rapey, dude.

[–]IncitingDramah1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

So...

Important piece of info is I've basically raped her, not intentionally, but I did.

What the fuck is this?

Honestly, love your take on this u/SBIII. This is new territory for me...

[–]amalgamator1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

https://reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3fpefe/every_unhappy_wife_is_a_rape_victim/

[–]themerovingian010 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Feeling raped, used, or a sex slave is just a shaming tactic women use.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

She said no and I fucked her anyway...more than once...

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Man I’ve been there but trust me when I say. Never say the word initiate to your wife again. Let it go, it comes across as needy and that is probably the least attractive thing you can be to her. She knows that your happiness is dependent upon her offering you sex, whose frame are y’all really in there? She might just be responsive, my wife never initiates but she also doesn’t give me hard no’s either. I’m telling you I’ve been you and I know that you are basing your happiness and self worth on your wife’s desire for you, you have to stop. Find things you like more than fucking her and do that instead. Right now they things you are saying to her sounds like a baby wanting mommy to lift her shirt so it can nurse

[–]RicoDunne2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

The man leads the charge for sex. Women will initiate but not like men. Often they will simply initiate in their own lame way until you are smart enough to take over, but it won't be like handing you the car keys. It's all very covert sub-coms that you just have to get.

The other issue is Calibration, as the PUAs will say is key. If the time is not right, mood is not right, then make it right or suspend until the logistics are in order.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I've picked up on how she initiates. But yeah it is a bit more covert. Only once has she overtly initiated with me.

She is stressed with work as of late, and her family -- but honestly if she was down she'd be down.

Not sure what to think...

[–]reigorius1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Often they will simply initiate in their own lame way

This and I'm always amused and fascinated by it. Most girls are anything but subtle about it. I had girls hammering my soft weener or shoving tits in my face out of the blue, thinking that's is how it works. Luckely I'm a sucker for tits.

There are however some girls that are experts at it, which initially feels fantastic. But you have to have8 a working borderline alert system as to not stick your dick in crazy. Those borderliners are medusas who are masters at reading you and playing you like a violin. The sex is totally awesome, but the soul destroying part that comes with it not.

[–]hack3geRed Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

You are a giant fucking faggot - you should probably just go and fuck dudes.

How deep in your wife’s frame do you legitimately have to be? Fucking covert contracts galore.

I’m not sure how someone who has lifted for 11 years could be such a little bitch.

[–]Morpheus_TNTB0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He has a big ego but likes to get plowed in the ass like a bitch. Strange indeed!

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Sounds like she’s just not into you. Otherwise, if she thought you had any value, she’s probably fuck your brains out. Surely someone is getting to see that side of her?

[–]yahooyou19840 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is so true.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Faggots initiate sex.

I live ABC.

[–]floatingsidewalk[🍰] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

No. It's a great idea. But there are rules to a sex moratorium. You need to do it right!

  1. Write down phone number from a guy friend that is nice looking. (if you don't have one, I have might know somebody who can help).
  2. Get a nice card from the store and maybe flowers too.
  3. Head home and tell her directly that you won't be having sex for a while.
  4. Give her aforementioned phone number.
  5. Tell her to put on something nice and call aforementioned number if she has any questions.
  6. Go play video games.

Somewhere between steps 2 and 3, give flowers to your mom. Just in case you need a place to stay.

Best of luck!

[–]so_woke_da_wookie1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Nah, it’s great idea. Your feefee’s don’t get hurt at all by your girls refusals. You do have to walk around with a raging boner, but since you’re confident enough because you’ve been lifting for a hot minute, you can pull that off right?

[–]loveisconditional[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

As long as I maintain attraction... I'd assume exactly this...

Would this not be:

  1. A good judge of her sexual interest in me

  2. A good way to prevent myself from ever looking needy

Only downsides (I'm seeing) are:

  1. Horny often

  2. No sex ever if I'm not as attractive as I assumed

Am I wrong here? If so, please explain.

[–]so_woke_da_wookie2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Have you touched the sidebar?

[–]so_woke_da_wookie2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

  1. Her current interest is irrelevant. You’re in her frame.
  2. Needy to her. You’re in her frame.

1b. Yeah. Because you’re in her frame.

2b. Not attractive by her reckoning. You’re in her frame.

Note: none of these allow you to experience new outcomes based on your continuous testing of boundaries and your improvements, why...you guessed right... because it is all in her frame.

PS: the things that will work for you are not what you think. Don’t step on your own dick.

[–]markpf731 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

🤦🏼‍♂️

[–]ChokingDownRPRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

What in the fuck did I just read? Before I unplugged, my wife told me on a couple of occasions that she just wasn't sexual anymore... It wasn't that she didn't want sex with me, she just didn't think about sex anymore, it wasn't something she wanted at all. "I guess that's just what happens when women get older", I thought. Nope, turns out I was just completely unattractive (fat ass videogamer). Once I had muscle definition and a backbone (frame and confidence), sex became top of mind for her. Funny how the asexual wife tuened it around when I turned my shit around.

Get busy faggot!

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I have a good bit of muscle, but yeah I definitely could use more confidence and frame with her. I show a lot if negative personal traits and mate guard/snoop/show insecurities waaaaayyy too often.

I'll work on it.

Cheers.

[–]mrpalt1Chief of the Towel Police1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Morning sunshine. OYS day

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Just made the post now. Check it out.

Also cheers for actually reminding me.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Doesn’t No More Mr. Nice Guy talk about this in chapter 10? Have you read it?

[–]loveisconditional[S] -3 points-2 points  (6 children) | Copy

No I haven't. Not going to. I don't have problems with being a pushover. If anything I'm too much of an ass...

[–]SBIIIRed Fucking Commando3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't have problems with being a pushover.

Oh, yeah? ...

​

I did verbally agree with her to not initiate for a few weeks and only allow her to do it when she's pining for it.

[–]hack3geRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

So far in her frame it’s actually unbelievable...

[–]Morpheus_TNTB1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You really think your wifey doesn't see through your incongruent gym baddass persona? You have zero frame and are willing to negotiate at any price for some management starfish sex. ~cringe~

Your dependa is probably getting plowed by Tyrone/Chadwick while she tells him how you're a little bitch.

[–]Ouzelbird1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Haha. I thought the same thing when I started reading the book. Nah that’s not me, I’m not a nice guy, I’m actually kinda a dick. Then I realized, after finishing the book, why I was being a dick.

NMMNG was specifically written for a guy like you. You being an ass is your butthurt showing.

Jesus Christ, the answer is right in fucking front of you.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well search the word “moratorium” on this sub and you will find lots of posts. It’s a little controversial.

NMMNG is an outstanding book but people here say disregard 1)talking to her about the book 2) moratorium is controversial

[–]hydrastas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Denial is a bitch bro. Start owning your shit

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Her, she, she, she.

The big question boils down to your overall attractiveness, frame and your life outside of hers.

Dread.

[–]RedPillGlasses0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Fuck Me, or Fuck You

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Not looking to walk away. It's been 2 weeks aha.

Things can be fixed.

[–]RedPillGlasses0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It’s a mindset, not an ultimatum.

[–]RisingUpAgain0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Two weeks?!?!?

[–]IncitingDramah0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Unfortunately, just semi-recently I've found out that me still fucking her during star-fish really upsets her and makes her self-reportedly feel used and uncared for.

Mouth noises coupled with bitch think

I probably shouldn't have done this, but I did verbally agree with her to not initiate for a few weeks and only allow her to do it when she's pining for it.

You're in her frame, congratulations.

The simple solution, idgaf.

If I were you, initiate when you want, and when she tries to give you starfish, just get your shit and be done. Dont finish, dont talk, dont cuddle. Just get your clothes back on, and smile and let her know you're going to hit the gym.

When her hamster spins wanting to know wtf this is all about, just tell her "this isnt the sex I want." Leave it at that, and withdrawal attention.

Or...

Do whatever gay shit you want to do, like listening to her mouth noises and using bitch think to rationalize failing her shit tests.

You do you.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Important piece of info is I've basically raped her, not intentionally, but I did.

Her no's dont always mean no, sometimes they mean maybe, but sometimes they mean no. I've gone and fucked her anyone when her no's meant no (and I interpreted them as maybe's).

Pretty critical point.

Aside from that I'd say your advice is solid. I'm not happy with starfish. Ty for the comment. Actually good advice...

[–]IncitingDramah0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Out of my realm of help here bud. You might be able to get some good advice from a veteran (which I'd absolutely love to see a serious take on this shit).

Judging by your responses to most though I dont think you may get it.

[–]EasyDaysHardNights0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I've basically raped her

No. You haven't basically raped her ... You HAVE. That shit can be found in the sidebar too. You haven't done the work to find it otherwise you would have known that already.

Every Unhappy Wife is a Rape Victim

Pretty critical point.

No, It's THE point.

Quit dancing around the problem. Own the fact that your life is fucked up and it's YOUR fault. The answers are right in front of you and you aren't putting in the effort to fix the problem. Own the fact that you aren't doing the work and you're a lesser man because of it. Do the fucking work and join the ranks of those of us who have turned our lives around or leave.

It's YOUR choice. Do the Work and become the man your woman wants desperately to fuck ... or ... Be a Rapist.

[–]Rifleshoot0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

So you mentioned that you let her dictate when you have sex now. That means that you guys had a discussion about the quality of sex. If she brought it up, then you should have held frame. Instead, you yielded it to her and now, she holds the keys to sex. You username is “love is conditional.” With a name like that, you should understand that your love for her has conditions: sex. You are the man, you bear the responsibility of initiating sex. By giving her that responsibility, you essentially give her even more power over sex than she already has as “the gatekeeper of sex.” So you, as the “gatekeeper of relationship” should be withdrawing time and attention if she is not upholding her end of the bargain.

Note: this is all premised that you are a man worthy of attraction. If you are fat or a human twig, then don’t do anything but try to remedy that fact.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good comment. Thank you for this advice.

I brought up the topic of sex and I'm the one who suggested that she should only initiate (for a few weeks). We fucked last night, but yeah I'm definitely a high-sex-drive guy, I'd fuck daily if given the ability.

I was doing that for awhile, and she would starfish for half of it, but just recently she's told me I've crossed a boundary and have basically raped her by misinterpreting one of her "no's".

I made the suggestion of letting her initiate as a result of that (and hopefully a temporary solution to rebuild her comfort with me).

Cheers to the advice on withdrawing attention/time/affection though.

[–]RicoDunne0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

*So far I've got nothing from posting here. Responses are all: "DO THE WORK" "FAGGOT" "SHE ISN'T ATTRACTED TO YOU" "FRAME FRAME FRAME" "RREEEEEEEEEEE"

Great help guys. Frame. Isn't attracted to me. Cool shit. Anything else?*

Anything else? Looking for a magic pill? Reversing your shitty frame will take awhile, there are no easy quick fixes that you can buy from a late night TV advertisement.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Best way to ensure a dead bedroom is to create one. Stupid fucking question. Not even going to read your word wall.

[–]mrpalt1Chief of the Towel Police0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Glad I found this. Looking forward to your OYS post tomorrow. I'll initiate you tomorrow to remind you to post it.

[–]loveisconditional[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Do it. Looking forward to it myself.

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yes.

[–]DeplorableRay0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Are you following her cycle?



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