What do you think about courtship?

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September 3, 2019

I was told to ask this question here. A lot of conservative Christians seem to like it but is it effective?

Post Information
Title What do you think about courtship?
Author dcabrerasa100
Upvotes 4
Comments 8
Date 03 September 2019 04:30 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askRPC
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/304639
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askRPC/comments/cz01yy/what_do_you_think_about_courtship/
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[–]Red-Curious2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

The problem with "courtship" is that it's not often clearly defined. I have heard the following used to describe "courtship" at different youth groups in my time:

  • "Courtship is when you get to know someone by spending time with them only in group settings until you're sure you want to marry them, at which point you propose."

  • "It's basically just being friends until you're ready to propose."

  • "Courtship is pretty much the same thing as dating, but where you set the goals and boundaries very clearly up-front."

  • "It's when you make your romantic interests for a woman known to her family and they arrange for you to spend time together and get to know the family until they can decide whether or not the two of you are a good match."

These are just ones I've heard - and I'm not even listing them all. Sure, there's some overlap here. But they're clearly giving different versions of events. So, it would be very relevant to know what you mean when you ask about this subject, as that very heavily affects how we answer.

Whatever your definition, the goal of courtship is to keep couples from becoming sexually active by placing extremely high boundaries on their ability to be alone with one another. This, in essence, presumes that every couple engaging in courtship is spiritually immature to a degree that they lack any appreciable self-control over their passion. While it's a fair assumption to make, it's also a self-fulfilling prophecy about the state of teenagers, because courtship in itself is one of those things which stunts a person's spiritual maturity in a number of ways.

But even without going down that road, it's important to note that "courtship" as a concept is found nowhere in Scripture. It's a human philosophy made to address the problem of youths getting sexually active before marriage. The Bible DOES have a lot to say about pre-marriage relationships, and what I see the Bible saying doesn't overlap well with a courtship model.

To be clear: the Bible doesn't talk so much about pre-marriage relationships between humans; rather, it talks a great deal about the pre-marriage relationship Christ had with his bride and how he brought his bride to his bedchamber. If you want to know what your pre-marriage relationship should look like (note that you can call it dating, courtship, or whatever other title you want to make up), the best way to approach it is to follow the model Jesus gave. How did he draw people to himself? How does he continue to bring more people into the Church, his bride? The same process used to cause someone to become Jesus' bride (i.e. evangelism) should outline the same process you should use to cause someone else to become your bride.

From there, it's just a matter of making sure you actually understand biblical evangelism and not philosophical evangelism, which is what churchianity preaches nowadays.

[–]wowsuchdrum0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I wonder if you could go more in depth on this. Specifically, when do you know it's time to marry/make someone your bride? I hear and appreciate your mentioning we should study how Jesus brought people to himself, but I'm struggling to figure out at what point in the relationship you decide to marry. I have heard your philosophy behind FAST and EASY. Once you determine that a woman is FAST and EASY, and is ready, willing, able, and actively contributing to your mission, is that it?

I've been studying and practicing the RPC philosophy for about a year now, and I've recently started in a relationship, and I've been wondering about this.

[–]Red-Curious0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

when do you know it's time to marry/make someone your bride?

When you can't keep from having sex with each other much longer. 1 Cor. 7. Yes, that could be relatively quick. I'm okay with that.

Once you determine that a woman is FAST and EASY, and is ready, willing, able, and actively contributing to your mission, is that it?

Not if you're not horny for her, or her for you. If you're not horny for her, get out. As time ticks on, she will become less attractive, not more. It's unlikely she will post-marriage up her attractiveness game from where she was at pre-marriage.

If she's not horny for you before marriage, get out. Not because you need to find someone who finds you attractive as you are - which is total garbage. It's because you're not attractive enough to warrant getting married yet. A man can keep growing in attractiveness well into his 30s. If she's not attracted to you, you haven't hit your peak yet - and chances are, once you hit your peak, the girl you got before you hit your peak won't hold a candle to the ones you can get when you're there. Then it's just a matter of maintaining your peak as long as possible - your frame: the best version of yourself all the time. Age naturally has an impact on this, but honestly not much.

Since you seem to be in the same demographic as another user on the RPC Chat, I'll paste to you what I wrote to him about dating. For context, he asked: "Can you expand on why you don't like 'scheduling a date'?"

For non-Christians, dating is great. It's an opportunity for a guy to prove quickly that he's the prize by displaying his SMV in the marketplace itself in order to get a quick hookup. The goal of the date for the non-Christian guy is sex. As soon as possible. Preferably on the first date. But a lot of guys will bail on a girl after 3-4 dates if sex is off the table. Why? Because that's too much time, emotional energy, money, etc. to be worth investing into a girl who isn't going to put out.

Now, pop in a guarantee that she's not going to put out - because you're not asking her to, due to your faith - and what's the point?

You might say "vetting her" is the point. Great. But why do you have to be in a date context to vet a girl? In reality, "dates" are the absolute WORST context to vet a girl.

  • She primps herself up, so you can't see what she's actually like.

  • She knows you're actively vetting her, so she's on guard to hide the information she doesn't want you to know.

  • You're also meeting up in a non-mission-oriented context so she gets no idea what your life is all about [other than through your words, not through your actions].

  • The focus, being solely on each other and not on the real world out there puts you in somewhat of a bubble that artificially creates emotions without giving an accurate portrayal of life together.

  • Women seek emotions, men seek sex; and Christian dating only feeds the emotional side for women. You might say, "Ah, but I'm a man and I LOVE the emotions of dating too." Great, we all do. But those emotions make you want to have sex with her, which you know you're not going to get for some time, whereas her emotions don't lead to anything - she just enjoys them, so she ends up full and you are left wanting.

Song of Songs refrains a number of times: "Do not awaken love before it so desires." This, in essence, translates to: "Don't get yourself horny before you're ready to tie the knot."

Classic dating is uniquely designed by culture to facilitate strong emotional connections as fast as humanly possible. This is the very definition of awakening love before it so desires. Instead, wait until love desires to be awoken naturally, then pump the emotional steroids.

Again, that's not to say you should never go on a date. Rather, it makes more sense to vet a girl by you staying on mission and seeing if she'll follow first. If she won't follow you before you start dating, then any following after dating is more easily understood to be a ruse to get you to keep seeing her.

Of course, I could be a little jaded there. Many of you know that my wife specifically told me 7-8 years into our marriage, after refusing all that time to join in on my mission: "I tricked you. I lied about being on board with disciple-making in order to get you to marry me." It took becoming red pilled to get her following my lead - and now past our 11-year anniversary, she's genuinely on board.

I don't want to see other guys get duped in the same way because a girl is trying to put her best foot forward. If you're going to vet at all, vet first, then date, then marry. Or just vet then marry, for all I care. Or make your mission the context for your dating first, before moving on to classical dating - no vetting at all.

More on the futility of vetting from u/RStonePT here: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/chp2w6/vetting_why_bother_when_boundaries_are_way_better/ Not to undermine u/RedPillWonder's posts on vetting too much - but I tend to agree with a lot of what RStone says here. I'd be curious what RPW thinks of it all.

[–]RStonePT0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy


Here, the Reddit post doesn't give much detail. The source is much better.

[–]Red-Curious0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

True - I just assumed everyone would be competent enough to see thre full link in the reddit post. Probably stupid of me to assume competency.

[–]RStonePT0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've been branding for a little while now, you'd be surprised.

It's not that people are stupid, it's that they can't be bothered to scavenge.

And I don't blame em

[–]Deep_Strength0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Aside from RC's excellent exposition, the Bible does not recommend any sort of structure for marriage.

There's arranged marriages in the Bible, there's kinsman redeemer, there's ones where God told someone to take a woman as their wife (though rare), and everything and there's some where men just chose.

The focus should not be on a particular pre-marital "structure" but rather be on God's boundaries (avoid pre-marital sex, etc.) and counseling toward Biblical marital roles and responsibilities. Basically, discipleship in the way of Christ-Church interaction.

[–]SteelSharpensSteel0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm not a fan. You want to find the women who are interested in you, not put one woman up on a pedestal.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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