Advice on moving forward with Christian dudes who are bp?

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December 11, 2019
6 upvotes

Since the men's group I'm starting will be part of an existing entity (some campus fellowship) I need to have some oversight. I approached this individual first since of the workers I had the best connection with him. Recently we went through the outline of what I'd like to do and he thought most of it was good but questioned the book I was using: u/Deep_Strength's Biblical Masculinity Blueprint. He instead recommended that I read God's Good Design by Claire Smith, which seems to be alright.

I asked him for his thoughts on male headship and submission, he said we need to sacrifice ourselves for women as Christ did for the church. Putting their needs ahead of ours etc. I get where he's coming from but in practice this kind of thinking can be misconstrued and dangerous. Its not a big deal at this point, and I have a gut feeling that if I can explain rpc properly then he would come around.

Still, what are some of your experiences with bp christian men? Successes and/or failures?


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Title Advice on moving forward with Christian dudes who are bp?
Author UpTanks
Upvotes 6
Comments 10
Date 11 December 2019 09:20 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askRPC
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/304655
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askRPC/comments/e94uln/advice_on_moving_forward_with_christian_dudes_who/
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[–]Deep_Strength5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy

Recently we went through the outline of what I'd like to do and he thought most of it was good but questioned the book I was using: Biblical Masculinity Blueprint

I assume he couldn't find anything wrong with it, except it's uncomfortable and feels wrong.

I asked him for his thoughts on male headship and submission, he said we need to sacrifice ourselves for women as Christ did for the church. Putting their needs ahead of ours etc. I get where he's coming from but in practice this kind of thinking can be misconstrued and dangerous. Its not a big deal at this point, and I have a gut feeling that if I can explain rpc properly then he would come around.

Not true for marriage.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies (1). He who loves his own wife loves himself ; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body(2). 31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself (3), and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

The purpose of Christ's loving sacrifice is for the purpose of sanctification (first bold). This verse is often warped into husbands making their wives happy or putting aside their own needs which is absolutely incorrect.

Consider the next set of verses after that, which explain how to do that. Husbands are called to:

  1. Emulate Christ
  2. Love their wife as themselves (3 times as indicated above).

This means that a husband must focus on Christ to love himself as Christ loves Him, and then use that as the standard to love his wife (similar to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love one another as I have loved you").

A husband that is not focused on God's mission for him can't love his wife correctly, and a husband that puts his wife before himself cannot lead his marriage correctly. Jesus was focused on God's mission for Him to the point of death for us. If He had listened to His disciples He wouldn't have died for us.

The love a husband shows is to emulate Christ and the Church: love her for the purpose of sanctification (v25-27). One cannot do these things if he is not engaged in God's mission and taking care of his own walk with God first. A husband who is running himself ragged to try to please his wife will please neither his wife and will come apart at the seams himself.

God's Good Design by Claire Smith

It's already been said but using a woman's book to teach men how to live as a man? If we want to talk Biblically, I don't recall that happening anywhere in the Bible, and in fact it's prohibited in the Church for women to teach men in 1 Timothy 2.

[–]rocknrollchuck1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is a good word!

[–]UpTanks[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

This is great gear and I'm almost finished your book btw.

The purpose of Christ's loving sacrifice is for the purpose of sanctification (first bold). This verse is often warped into husbands making their wives happy or putting aside their own needs which is absolutely incorrect.

u/Rifleshoot and u/helaughsinhidden mentioned this too. "Love your wives as Christ loves the Church" is interpreted as all kinds of weird stuff. This point alone is so important and will need to be hammered home.

[–]Red-Curious4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

"The Lord disciplines the one he loves" - Hebrews 12:6.

Respond back: "Excellent reference, my friend. I totally agree that we should love our wives the way Christ loves the church. So, what would you say is the proper way for a husband to discipline his wife?"

Wait 10 seconds through either shocked silence or objection after objection.

"Oh, so you think we should just single out one aspect of how Christ loved the church and ignore all the other ways?"

Done. Works every time. Sometimes I still get some objections, but it's put away as soon as I say: "I want to model Christ to my wife in every way Christ is a groom to us, as his bride. If I say I'm only going to be like Christ in the ways that are socially acceptable, but not in the more difficult, controversial ways, am I truly Christ-like?"

/u/Deep_Strength also had a great reply. Props for making good use of his book.

[–]RedPillWonder0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent!

I'm stealing this with attribution.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy

[deleted]

[–]UpTanks[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My first thought as well. It seems to have good reviews which could mean anything lol, guess I'll just have to give it a geeze.

[–]Rifleshoot2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I wouldn't read a book on masculinity written by a woman. And I agree with the guy on the willingness to sacrifice yourself for the sake of your wife and family. I mean that in the literal sense: be willing to jump in front of a bullet for them. That doesn't mean sacrifice your mission or your goals, or even your happiness. It's literally be willing to sacrifice your life for their wellbeing. Place their safety and security ahead of your own. Not their happiness, their safety.

[–]helaughsinhidden2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

https://www.mensfraternity.com/products or the successor https://www.authenticmanhood.com/product-category/33-the-series/ is FAR BETTER if you want to use "church approved" stuff. All these really won't discuss sexual strategy though, but at least a better representation of biblical masculinity and leadership that places Christ first, mission second, then the wife. Those two have a strong focus on finding your purpose and that is probably worth your time, especially for young unmarried men that are likely to be in your specific group.

God's Good Design by Claire Smith

I skimmed about five seconds of that book online and as the person you spoke to said, it tells men to "sacrifice themselves for women". Women in the church take that as license to boss around their man and subjugate him. Keep in mind, Jesus put his FATHER FIRST and was there to accomplish HIS PLAN. There are MANY examples of Christ both putting the disciples and crowds on the back-burner for His mission as well as teaching and directing them on how to help accomplish it. Furthermore, when Christ did give himself up for the church, it was NOT at our request. In other words, Jesus was sacrificial, but never did He "do the will" of the church, in fact it was usually quite different than what they wanted him to do.

[–]Red-Curious1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Solid.



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