Q4W: How can you be “coerced” into sex?

[–]birthdaybutt37 points38 points39 points 4 years ago (136 children) | Copy Link

A woman may be coerced into sex if she feels there will be repercussions for her otherwise. Men are generally stronger than women, and a woman may worry about physical backlash. With celebrities, there is a power imbalance that is not something a non-famous person navigates everyday, adding a whole extra layer of nuance to the situation. Also, women really have it ingrained in us to be nice and polite at all times. Unfortunately that means that being direct feels wrong or rude to some of us sometimes.

If a woman has said no or expressed that she isn't comfortable but still wants to continue the date without sex, and the guy just keeps pressuring her, she might eventually just give in. Like what happened with Aziz. It's an awkward situation to be in as a woman, because even though you may be interested in the man, you aren't ready for sex just yet. Combined with power imbalance, it creates a bad situation where someone feels pressured to do something they don't want to do because their previous attempts to say no haven't been received, and walking out would feel rude or potentially have other consequences.

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[–]iamgroot3332 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

i'm not gonna let you twist it like that.

my extreme rape sex abuse example was a hyperbole to make a point.

my point being that no matter what your past is, that doesn't give you an excuse or cop out for your fuck ups.

and yes in this case by fuck up i mean failure to say no to a guy when you didn't want to have sex with him.

you didn't wanna have sex, but you didn't say no cos you've had it beaten into you to never say no, so you had sex, and now you feel shitty about it.

well guess what, that's not the guys fault in any way shape or form. that's YOUR FAULT for not saying no. go to therapy, learn to say no, work on yourself or some shit but don't expect the world to bend to your weak ass.

Take some responsibility, it's called being an adult, maybe you should try it sometime instead of doing everything in your power to not be held accountable for jack shit cos you're an overgrown child.

oh and btw i've met PLENTY, in fact MOST of the girls, in fact damn near ALL the girls i've slept or been with have said no if they didn't want something to happen sexually.

so this isn't a "all Women" problem. this is a "weak women" problem. or better put a "neurotic weak feminist indoctrinated women" problem.

stop being so god damn weak.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT, i don't even have a problem with people who are weak as long as they atleast acknowledge it as THEIR. OWN. PROBLEM. instead of saying "nah i'm not weak, it's just that everything else is difficult".

[–]birthdaybutt0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]birthdaybutt2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Okay so let's paint a picture. A man and a woman are on a date and it's going well. A man suggests sex or makes a move. The woman says no.

Why would she have to leave at that point? There hasn't been a threat to her and she has no reason to assume the man will continue to coerce her. The date is going well, so it continues.

But maybe the man keeps making moves. This is like any kind of peer pressure. If someone is pressuring you to do something, you might struggle internally because part of you wants to do it. You've said no, but the person just keeps chipping away until it kind of breaks down your spirit. Yes, walking away is a great solution. And maybe the woman doesn't feel empowered to do that, for whatever reason. What I don't understand is why so many people in this thread don't seem to feel a man should listen and respect "no" the first time? If a woman says no once, game over. Why is that so revolutionary? How is it on the woman if a man keep pressing her to do something she already clearly expressed she doesn't want to do? Yes, walking away is a great solution to that problem for the woman. But why aren't we just holding men accountable for accepting "no"?

[–]iamgroot3332 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Okay so let's paint a picture. A man and a woman are on a date and it's going well. A man suggests sex or makes a move. The woman says no.

Why would she have to leave at that point? There hasn't been a threat to her and she has no reason to assume the man will continue to coerce her. The date is going well, so it continues.

But maybe the man keeps making moves. This is like any kind of peer pressure. If someone is pressuring you to do something, you might struggle internally because part of you wants to do it. You've said no, but the person just keeps chipping away until it kind of breaks down your spirit. Yes, walking away is a great solution. And maybe the woman doesn't feel empowered to do that, for whatever reason.

great we agree here

What I don't understand is why so many people in this thread don't seem to feel a man should listen and respect "no" the first time? If a woman says no once, game over. Why is that so revolutionary? How is it on the woman if a man keep pressing her to do something she already clearly expressed she doesn't want to do? Yes, walking away is a great solution to that problem for the woman. But why aren't we just holding men accountable for accepting "no"?

depends on your definition of accountable. he shouldn't be in prison or expelled from university for not accepting no but he is an asshole. and by not accepting no i mean he keeps VERBALLY pushing her inspite of her saying no and i don't mean verbally THREATENING either.

that's about as far as that goes.

men should respect a no or else they are an asshole BUT they are not a criminal.

once he starts threatening or physically holding her down or physically not letting her leave or assaulting her, then he's a criminal.

that's the problem everyone has with these feminists, they want to say that asshole behaviour is criminal behaviour. and that's why we think they're batshit insane.

if i walk past a random girl and say "nice ass"... i'm being an asshole NOT a criminal.

I really hope you're starting to understand the difference here.

also before you say "but she might FEEEEEEEEEEL threatened". fuck how she feels about it. criminal situations are not about feelings they are about facts. asshole situations can be about feelings however.

if it was within her power with no repercussions, other than the guy being a pissed off, to walk out of the room. inspite of the guy pushing and begging for sex, inspite of her saying no. then she was not raped or coerced because she technically did have an out. criminally speaking.

in conclusion, feminists wanna make it like being an asshole is equal to being a rapist. news flash.. it's not.

[–]30dirtyfingers-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

He should listen and understand, but 2 things:

1) people shouldnt kill, rob, hurt, steal, cheat, lie either, but they do anyway. Thats why there are countermeasures such as laws and police, because people dont always do what they should. How often have you NOT done something you were suppose to do? You must be a shitty person for not doing what you were suppose to do.

2) If someone pressure you to jump off a bridge? What about putting your hand in fire? Or what about pulling a fire alarm? How about smoking a cigarette? How about homeless people asking for money? You know, they are hungry and could really use your entire paycheck to help them out for a few days.

How is it on you to say no to the homeless guy/woman that needs your money? Yes, walking away is a great solution to that problem for women. But why arent we just holding homeless people accountable for accepting "no"?

Because it doest matter what someone asks you, if you dont want to, you say no and stick to it....even defend it with your life if you feel you need to.

Also, dont come to NYC, you will be broke and homeless in a matter of hours if you have no spine and cant say no.

[–]30dirtyfingers0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (54 children) | Copy Link

What you are describing sounds a lot like a child being told what to do by an adult.

Are women children?

I don’t care how big or famous a man or woman is, if they are trying to fuck me, and I don’t want to, I’m out.

If you are so weak willed and so dazzled by fame that you are gonna suck some dudes dick rather than leaving or losing your shot at dating the guy then you obviously weren’t really all that disgusted in the first place.

If some middling attractive girl pouts until I have sex with her, that is 100% on ME because I am a grown adult and made the decision. If I wake up disgusted with myself, I am no way no how framing it as anything other than “ugh I can’t believe I did that”

Note I would not say “I can’t believe I got talked into doing that” because sex is not a fucking punishment.

If you say shit like” but X was famous, and I really liked them, so, even though I didn’t want to, I just let them stick their dick in me because I don’t know how to say no and leave!”, how can you ever expect somebody to take you seriously?

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[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

I sympathize. That is life as a meek, timid people pleaser.

There are plenty of men like this as well.

“Aw, gee, Stacy... You need me to pick you up and drop you off at the airport because chad is out of town? Umm well okaaay. I guess my moms birthday dinner can wait”

Shit happens all the time.

You don’t get to blame somebody else for that.

If a high pressure car salesman talks you into a piece of shit, that is literally the definition of coercion and even THEN you don’t get to play the victim when you could have walked away.

And keep in mind we are talking about the physical act of sucking or fucking a dude. If that is something you do “cause I’m afraid to say no” then you have bigger problems to deal with in life.

It’s my whole point. I can’t fathom how somebody will fuck out of some sense of obligation. It doesn’t add up.

I also find it suspicious because I see this come up too often when it’s just a girl ashamed to admit that she willingly had casual sex.

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[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

That’s not my position at all.

I agree consent can be revoked at any time.

You know the most reliable way to revoke consent? Get up and walk the fuck out like a grown up.

Being held down? That’s rape. Being threatened? Also rape. Having a guy offer you a part in a movie if you fuck him? Thats coercion. A guy begging for pussy? It’s pathetic, but it’s not rape or coercion.

Again, a gay dude can beg me to suck his dick all night long. He can buy me dinner, take me to a show, compliment me, etc. He asks me to suck his dick? I’m out.

I also disagree about the “enthusiastic and continuous” part because any guy who has fucked more than 2 girls knows that’s not how shit goes down in real life.

Why?

Because nearly all women operate with the goal of plausible deniability due to the shame society heaps on them for wanting dick in the first place.

The same reason women won’t approach a guy is the same reason they make the guy lead a sexual escalation 9/10 times.

And guess what? Guys that don’t lead well find out real quick that being mr passive “may I kiss you guy” leads to a dry dick, while that same chick is banging the Chad who just went for the kiss.

Of course, If woman wants to bail out of a sexual encounter the guy damn well better respect that immediately. But that should expressed verbally (ie STOP)

And stop with this “entitled to pussy” nonsense. A bad seduction is not evidence of entitlement.

[–]birthdaybutt4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I hear what you are saying but this issue comes up whenever men and women have this discussion. It’s the issue of what “enthusiasm” looks like during sex.

Women generally know what it looks like to one woman - themselves.

Men generally know this “enthusiasm” varies wildly from one woman to another.

There’s a reason starfish sex is a term. There’s a reason freak in the sheets, lady in the streets is a term.

Some girls say “fuck me harder daddy” and some girls just lay there with a grimace and let out a ecstatic squeak once in a while.

Enthusiasm does not look like whatever you imagine it to look like.

We can probably agree a girl lying motionless staring at the ceiling is definitely not enjoying what’s happening. Of course.

But we both know that’s not what is being talked about.

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I do not believe that consent can be revoked retroactively. However, I do believe that if two people consent to sex and then either party changes their mind during the act, they can revoke consent and the other party needs to understand and respect that decision. If you were to continue having sex with the other party after that point, you are doing something wrong. That bad deed falls on a spectrum somewhere between violation of a person's wishes up to rape, and extenuating circumstances need to be considered to determine where on the spectrum it falls. Regardless if criminal charges are pressed, or if charges are pressed and dismissed, I still believe the party who continued did something morally wrong. That goes for any person, regardless of gender.

My response wasn't a denial of retroactive revokation because I do not believe that's what the conversation was about specifically. However, I still firmly believe that consent should be enthusiastic and continuous during the act. I am getting a lot of argument back for that, and I welcome different points of view. I still can't wrap my head around why others believe they should face no blame, criminal or not, for refusing to respect another person's "no" the first time. It seems that a lot of the responses I'm getting are saying "yes someone SHOULD listen to 'no', BUT...". Where is the but? Can't we as a society hold each other accountable for not being shitty?

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[–]birthdaybutt0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure how your statistic about men with ASD comes into play here at all. Are you implying that all the men who struggle with understanding consent are on the spectrum? AND that that should let them off the hook for any backlash after having coerced someone into sex? That is absolutely not how you help a person on the spectrum learn and grow, by shielding them from a natural consequence of their actions.

For that matter, girls are largely underdiagnosed with ASD, or diagnosed at a much later age than men, which means that many girls with ASD go unnoticed for a long time and don't receive the support they need to understand social cues. What are you going to let those girls off the hook for?

Do you know why so many girls with ASD go undiagnosed? Because society forces girls and women to be more social aware than boys, and punishes them more harshly for social blunders from a young age. That is one way in which women are held to a higher standard than men. I personally don't find that acceptable. Men are just as capable of picking up social cues, but like to use the excuse that they can't to try and wiggle out of it and get away with what they want. This is one way in which society babies men. Sex seems to be the one area where men are held to a high standard of understanding social cues, and they just can't handle it and whine that it's unfair and they shouldn't have to do it.

Can women be more direct in saying no to sex? Sure, absolutely. And there are absolutely movements where women encourage each other not to apologize for this kind of thing, and encourage others to raise their daughters to protect themselves over being polite. This is something that, trust me, women realize is a problem and are taking strides to fix. And men (the men in this thread anyways, because the men I know in real life don't seem to hold these beliefs) don't want to be held accountable for their part at all. Society didn't get to a place where women are coerced into sex with men without the help of both men and women. So men need to take their accountability too, and yes, need to seek enthusiastic, continuous consent from sexual partners.

It's funny that sex/dating is really the only area where men can't take an indirect no, though, and demand that women make up for their own shortcoming. If you ask a woman if she wants a cookie and she dances around taking it, men don't pester her until she eats it. If you ask a woman if she wants to suck your dick, and she dances around giving you an answer, it's best to assume she doesn't want it. Men should not accept anything less than an excited YES when it comes to sex. Come on, men. Why would you want to sleep with someone who isn't completely excited to sleep with you?

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[–]30dirtyfingers0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So, the feelings of one person negate the intention of the other person? So because a woman may FEEL coerced means Im pressuring her into doing something she doesnt want to do? Am I the only person who understands that feelings are subjective...as in how you feel is an internal thing that influences you.....not me.

Does it count if what I said (with the intention of pressuring you) doesnt make you feel pressured? Is that coercion? I keep getting the impression that women cant speak up for themselves so we have to coddle them WHICH i swear completely goes against feminism....hell it goes against treating women like adults who make their own decisions. If she doesnt want to do something, she says no. Will there be consequences, sure, but there are consequences for everything. Keeping your integrity and standing your ground will be worth it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

And yes, I have been "coerced" by gay men....for them to give me a blowjob. "You can pretend im a girl if you like" they all said. Guess what I didnt get? Does it count as coercion? I didnt feel any real pressure because I didnt want a blowjob from them and I was willing to deal with the consequences (they were all bigger than me, so force could have been used). Should we condemn these guys for trying to get laid? I dont fault them (im pretty attractive) for trying, I just wasnt interested.

[–]birthdaybutt0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

"So, the feelings of one person negate the intention of the other person?"

Yes. You are responsible for how you make people feel. ESPECIALLY if you make them feel that they are in some kind of danger.

That's called communication. Not everyone is Spock and can take only the exact literal meaning of words into account. Words, previous experience, thoughts, and feelings are the basis of communication. If my boss looks at me and says something about needing to improve my job performance, I might feel anxious or stressed because I might lose my job. Did she threaten my job? Not exactly, but I have previous knowldge that when someone is performing poorly at work, they may get fired. My feelings are based on what I have previously experienced and are thus rational TO ME (even if others come from work cultures where no one is ever fired) and my future actions will be influenced by this interaction.

There's a popular TV show called It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and in one episode Dennis and Mac decide to take some girls out on a boat overnight to get them to sleep with them "because of the implication". It's supposed to be a funny joke, but the point is that they wanted to put the girls in a situation where they FELT like they couldn't say no, so that they could be taken advantage of. Why would the girls FEEL threatened? If no one threatens to rape them, why would they consider that danger? Why would being in the dark, out at sea, with 2 men make these women feel in danger? Because you and I know damn well what the implication is. It's coercion. That's why the joke is so "funny".

You're going to argue that the women shouldn't put themselves in that position, but I'm going to stop you there and say all women know already how ridiculous it would be to do so.

In sum, feelings are big part of communication, and yes you are responsible for how your actions or words makes others feel.

[–]30dirtyfingers0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I cant make anyone feel anything. I CAN influence your feelings heavily, but I cant choose how you will feel. If my boss looks at me and says something about needing to improve my job performance, I might feel anxious or stressed because I might lose my job (true) BUT what if i was looking to already leave my job because I was planning to leave anyway? Where is the anxiety and stress? There wouldnt be any associated with what my boss just said. YOUR feelings are based on what YOU previously experienced and are thus rational to YOU and YOUR future actions MAY (because they may not) influenced by this interaction. That is all about you and I cant know those things ahead of time unless informed. Its not my responsibility, although I can take it upon myself to take responsibility, but im not obligated.

Now lets take that same interaction with your boss that made you anxious and stressed. If you decided to attack him because of how he "made you feel", is it his fault he got attacked? I mean, he did make you feel anxious and stressed.

If i say to guy A "hey, nice haircut" and his response is "thank you". Then say to guy B "hey, nice haircut" and his response is "well, they cut too much off the top, and the sides are uneven and I look like a total mess. Was hoping no one noticed"...well my words just made him anxious....BUT was it my words or the the way he perceived the words because I used the same words with the same intent to both people but the results were different....and I couldnt have known that before hand. I dont think anyone should put themselve into positions like that but we cant ALWAYS predict when we will be in said situation but the choices you make are still on you (nuances apply).

Using your sunny in philadephia example, the guys tried to trick them into having sex by putting the girls in a situation where they FELT like they couldnt say no. I dont watch the show, but based on the character of the 2 guys, did you believe the guys would rape the women? Did they have sex? Did the girls feel like they couldnt say "no"? Did the girls actually (and this is important) say "no"? If the girls didnt say no, did they (and this is even more important) communicate "no" through their actions? Would you go out on a boat at night with 2 guys you met fairly recently overnight? Would you think that they may want to have sex? If you think they may want to have sex (important part ahead), do you think they would respect your decision not to have sex if you said no? I think these are all very important questions that beg for answers.

Lemme give you another example: A guy I used to work with invited me to his house to smoke. I had known him for 4 months and he seemed pretty cool. Once I got there, we went to his room and smoked. I got a really weird vibe, as if he had "other plans". I wasnt sure, so I stuck around for a bit and asked quite a few questions. The vibe remained. Went and grabbed something to drink. Came back and smoked. Vibe remained. After 40 minutes, i got out of there. The vibe made it waaaaaaay too awkward and im not sure what his deal was. I left thinking "this must be what it feels like to be a girl". I have seen him a few times afterwards and I always get that vibe, even in public. Needless to say we dont hang out anymore. I dunno what is true intentions were, but I wasnt gonna keep putting myself in that situation to find out.

[–]birthdaybutt0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"I cant make anyone feel anything. I CAN influence your feelings heavily"

That's just semantics. You agree with my point.

"Now lets take that same interaction with your boss that made you anxious and stressed. If you decided to attack him because of how he "made you feel", is it his fault he got attacked? I mean, he did make you feel anxious and stressed."

This example is a purposeful misinterpretation of my point. This is obviously a ridiculous scenario where everyone would agree that feeling you might lose your job does not warrant attack. This is not the same things as being cornered and threatened, for example, to give someone all your money. Those words are going to heavily influence what you do - either give it or have it taken by force. That's what many women or men might feel like if they are cornered and don't have the option of walking away.

As far as the Sunny example, yes, based on the character of Dennis, I do believe he would rape a girl and there are several jokes about him being a rapist over the series. Does that help you see that shitty people can engineer situatuons where someone would be suggestable? I already mentioned that I and many other women WOULD NOT go out on a boat with 2 strangers, because that would be ridiculous situation to put yourself in. That's not to say that other les ovvious shitty situations can't be engineered.

It's unfortunate what happened with your girlfriend accusing you of rape and then dating you (?????), but she didn't say no, according to you, so how would you have known? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when someone wants sex and are told no repeatedly but can't respect the other person's wishes and either: continue the sex act they are in, or continue to place pressure on them for sex. I think both are wrong.

I appreciate you typing all of your thoughts out and taking the time to respond to me, but I just don't agree and I don't think you can change my mind. This conversation hasn't really helped me see another point of view either and is just making me firmly believe what I believe. The same may go for you.

I don't think you should pressure anyone to do anything. I think you agree with that. I think if someone says no, you should stop. You also seem to agree with this point. I think someone should leave a situation if they feel uncomfortable/threatened. We agree there. What you seem to disagree with is that the person who didn't listen to "no" should face any kind of repercussions, and neither should a person who engineered a situation that implies rape without actually saying it. You and I disagree there, and you, along with the other people who have been blowing up my inbox over the last 3 days, have yet to make a point that makes me reconsider my position.

You cam continue responding if you like, but I think this conversation is over for me. Thank you for sharing your points of view.

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Ooohhhkay didn't get that reference... So, you have said that in situations outside of 'the implication of danger' you do not understand why women are coerced into sex (?). You then make it very clear that 'sucking dick' is the absolute worst thing you can imagine. Not homelessness, unemployment, physical harm, fire, the promise of a new type of cancer in your rectum is worse, to you, than sucking dick. Not everyone feels that way. So they'll weigh things differently when facing a coercive situation. Where you would rather literally die than suck dick, a woman may decide the sucking of the dick to be a lessor evil than potentially destroying thier chances of furthering a career they have struggled to gain for most of thier lives. Again, there is more than one kind of harm. You say you understand what implications can mean, but you need to expand your ideas on what harms people are trying to avoid.

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I mostly agree, except your examples are inaccurate.

Louis CK was a comedian, not an office worker. If you don't understand that comedians live in a completely different world from some cube dweller, I don't know what to tell you.

A family setting (birthday) is also completely different as you certainly know.

What he actually did was mainly directed at fellow comedians, when he was a relative unknown. It became a bigger issue as he got more famous (even though it had happened years earlier).

Finally, he fucking asked. You may find it gross, fine. But he did ask for consent each and every time by all accounts. Because you find his weird kink "gross" is irrelevant (I do too).

If Aziz had asked "can I shove my fingers down your throat" and the girl said "uh... ok" would it still be a problem when he got consent and did it?

It would be like if I was trying to be an actor, and some gross more established B actress said "Hey, can you stand there and watch me piss into this jar" - Well, I'd be like "wtf? no thanks?"

If I had a few drinks in me, I might watch "for a laugh" which, ironically, a number of Louis' "Victims" said they did.

To me the biggest problem with the Louis situation was that his agents and people around him campaigned to silence / discredit the women. That is fucked up full stop, and whoever that guy is should never, ever work in that industry again IMO.

Louis himself also dodged the question for years and implied it never happened (calling them "rumors" etc)

I'll ask you. If you go to some dude's hotel room and he point blank asks you "Would you like to watch me masturbate"? What are you going to say?

[–]Joey_Lopez0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]decoy88Black Male in London1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

What the main factor is IF SHE’S REALLY SCARED (justified or not) makes it coercive. Which makes seems like a bad tool to measure things. Especially because different women are different. What scares one may not scare another.

What I think a lot of guys struggle to understand is the inaction in response to fear. Fear can be rational or irrational, but often being more prone to experiencing violence, most men have learned to respond accordingly to real threats and such, and, are more used to feeling justified fear (ie, this guy will fuck me up and intentions are clear)

Because of that, my response to “she’s really scared” is “so what, you gotta deal with that”. Overcoming fear is something that seems to be less and less encouraged (on the internet). When it should be the opposite.

I observed that women that have been more exposed (ie growing up with boisterous brothers), are less likely to feel coerced unless the threat is more imminent.

Even in the 90’s women seemed to have more backbone and gusto. A whiny man isn’t coercive, he’s being a whiny annoying bitch, nothing more. And that’s how they were dealt with.

I think most of it is the bubble-wrap nature of child-rearing combined with overeliance on the ability to read between the lines. Assuming an implication where there is none.

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]taapy234RED4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It only tells us that how much privilege western women enjoy.

They have it so good that they invent justifications to keep their oppressed status intact.

In a way, all that complaining only makes me go..... ahh, its a beautiful morning here that the only "problem" around me is a woman bitching about some bullshit and not [insert worst crimes of humanity]

I call it white woman index. If all that white girl is complaining about is how some tard wearing a MAGA hat "ruined" her day, and how some bigot "cyberbullied" her through twitter and that it made her cry, you know you live in a nice place. ( for now) But if you see white woman talking about actual crimes, not the made up in the head ones, then you know shit's real.

To answer your question OP, just play along with women. Remember one of the TRP sayings: Treat women like children. Instead of actually asking adult questions like what you did here, just play along with their bullshit and they turn their attention to something else afterwards.

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]whydidntthey0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're missing so much with this view. First women want to be coerced into sex. The fantasies a woman actually has? If she accepts what she is? But they don't want to wake up from that fantasy with a skinny dot head. They want to wake up with a fleshed out attractive man.

Ah so you've probably done it. You wake up and struggle and roll over and hey, girl there. And she's a fat pig girl with no self control, and no I don't really want to control you why bother? You close your eyes and try to think about what happened, small flashes of her looking into your eyes.

Ugh No

Or girls just obey. They don't know what they are worth. Nothing. Most of them think they are worth nothing. Guys too.

That asiz thing. The girl just woke up to the harsh realization that she embraced the fakery, and the fakery embraced her back. And she didn't like it. We should imprison her father as he was her owner and he did a really bad job.

[–]darudeboysandstormHaving Instagram makes you a thot-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Women also want men to read verbal and non-verbal cues and be thoroughly educated on consent among other things but yet here we are. Men pick and choose what wants they will go along with and what they will ignore so please dead that. Men aren’t doing women a favor they’re engaging in something they find mutually beneficial. There’s women pushing the fat acceptance movement yet I don’t see you all gung-ho about that.

There’s a difference between being assertive and making a move, and trying to bulldoze someone you know is a pushover.

And it’s also a flaw men need not take advantage of. Yet they do and get pissy when they’re called out.

I don’t think women are children. I know that there’s people in this world who aren’t super strong willed and others who will take advantage of it. Of course the passive person needs to toughen up but that doesn’t change the fact that people who take advantage of them are wrong too.

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Everything you just said is basically “women have no responsibility for willingly engaging in sexual encounters and men have all of it”

Women get to be wish washy, men must be decisive.

Women get to send mixed signals, men must sort them out.

Women get to willingly have sex and then claim the didn’t want to in order to feel less shame.

Men are required to be mind readers.

Assertive but not aggressive. Confident but not arrogant. Leading but not demanding.

Every single one of those things is subjective. Every woman will describe them differently.

Meanwhile, women can’t be expected to walk out a door when they aren’t down for sex?

And the penalties for all this confusion. For a man, you can be labeled a creep at best or have your life ruined at worst.

Women have to have bad feelings for deciding to have sex with a loser.

[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

1st. Women are not a monolith. Some women are passive and others are not. What I’m saying is when you encounter the passive types tread lightly and respect them if they muster up the courage to say no. If they’re uncomfortable leave them alone. They typically give non-verbal cues. Learning about body language can only help you, not hurt you. Can you tell me the difference between the aforementioned traits in a social setting? I’m trying to see something.

It’s honestly not that hard. I manage to do it all the time. I assert my needs and desires but I also check in with the people close to me who I know are passive and make sure they’re comfortable to express themselves to me. I don’t pressure them into things.

Just like passive women have to learn to dial up their confidence and be better at enforcing their boundaries. Aggressive men also have to learn not to push things to far. How you twisted this what you did is beyond me. However I don’t appreciate you putting words in my mouth and I kindly ask that you don’t do it again.

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I missed the part where you pointed out women’s responsibility in the equation. Only that men must learn to read women’s signals.

As far as this post, I 100% agree with you that it’s absolutely essential for men to learn how to be emotionally intelligent.

I’ve met some very timid and shy girls and I knew instinctively they needed a more patient and gentle approach.

The caveat is that women can be fucking weird about sexuality in a uniquely confusing way.

Men will tell you of girls who seem into things claim later she wasn’t.

Likewise, I’ve had timid girls pull the whole “I wanted you to take me” game.

Also, it’s TRP cliche but “anti slut defense” is a real thing.

The issue here is 100% of the weight is on the man to decode all this shit, while a woman has zero responsibility and zero agency in the encounter to the point she seemingly can’t even choose to leave the room rather than engage in sex she somehow doesn’t actually want to have even though she’s sucking your dick.

I don’t think women appreciate the minefield that is bearing the responsibility of the leader in these situations.

[–]yoshimango971 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

This goes back to body language there’s exceptions to everything but generally there’s a few differences between shy girls who are into you/girls playing coy and girls who are shy/passive and not into you. Both types will be quiet, seem unopen to convo, lack eye contact, retreat into themselves, and get kind of shaky when they talk or they won’t talk with conviction. This is as far as many people go when they read body language but there’s more to it. In this instance though I fully understand the confusion.

The shy girls who are into you will still be looking at or near you, just not at your eyes. Even if they shrink into themselves they’ll typically be turned toward you. If you try mirroring techniques they’ll often follow. If they really like you they’ll be flushed or smiley, just very awkward and timid about expressing themselves.

Girls who aren’t into you will be looking elsewhere, sometimes looking for an escape route, their body language will be closed off and they’ll retreat into themselves and turn away from you. If you try mirroring techniques they won’t follow. Some start getting watery eyes from feeling so uncomfortable/scared.

If you pay close attention you’ll notice the little things. It’s a learning curve but it’s possible if you care to do it.

It’s not 100% on the man. He’s responsible for his part which is being respectful and reading the situation. The woman is responsible for her part as well which is clear communication. In an ideal world both parties will do this effectively. Unfortunately that’s not the world we live in. So it’s important to be mindful of that and at the very least do your part.

I can appreciate it as I’ve done it. I’ve dated shy girls and guys and it’s taught me a lot. I used to be pretty passive too, I’m way more assertive now though and I go to bat for pushover people. I love hyping them up to make them confident enough to be assertive too.

[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Huh? No, it’d be more like if the homeless guy asked you for money. You say no. He asks again. You say no. He moves closer to you and begs again with more pressure “don’t you have a heart can’t you just give me one quarter? I’m so hungry I’ll die out here, please? please?” so he’s disregarded your boundaries, discarded your no multiple times and now trying to guilt trip you by making you feel like there’ll be consequences if you don’t give him the money. So you cave. That’s what I’m saying.

To give irl examples of what I’ve seen done to my passive friends after they say no:

“If you were a real friend you’d do X”

“Wowwww you’re really going to say no? I thought you liked me. Guess not”

Or worse when the the pushy person basically demands that the passive person does something without even asking them.

Strong-willed people will tell you about yourself if you try to guilt trip them or demand they do xyz. Passive people won’t they’ll cave to the pressure and do what you want because they’re scared they’ll lose you, you’ll get angry and them and lash out, they’ll be the cause of some negative consequences etc.

[–][deleted] 4 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

The homeless man didn’t actually make physical contact though. He just moved in closer. Is that really a crime?Just seems disrespectful and like very very poor tact.

I’ve never heard women claim this is as bad as rape. Just that it’s something quite hard they have to deal with, and work through. This isn’t exclusive to women either just more common due to the way women are raised in most cultures. The ”real friend” quote is actually something that happened to a passive male friend of mine.

In the case of my friends I’m their unofficial chaperone and there’s another girl and guy in our group that are pretty much the same. It’s not a formal agreement, but from the group dynamics that’s basically what me and 2 others are. When the passive friends encounter pushy people that make them uncomfortable whichever one of us is with them will intervene. I tend to hang back at first to let the passive person get a chance to practice saying no, but if it’s not looking good I step in,

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[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

You sure about that because when googling it comes up with “sexual coercion” and not all forms of it are criminal. Type of threat, power dynamics, age of victim and aggressor etc are all taken into account to determine the legality. So mostly it’s not on the same level as rape. Like I said to most women it’s just a hardship that comes with being a woman that you have to work to defend against.

The homeless man thing is good to know for future purposes.

The scenarios I listed weren’t about sex. It was aggressive people trying to pressure passive people into doing work and favors for them and it went similar to how the homeless guy situation did. We were all sitting or standing close together so the personal space thing doesn’t apply. Everything else was the same though they keep asking and pestering despite the person being uncomfortable, reluctant and refusing. Then they try to guilt trip them to get their way. It’s not man shaming to consider that bad or gross behavior.

I’ll give the friends letters

“I thought you liked me. . .”

There were 5 of us there that “John” could’ve asked to do the favor because at the time we were all good friends. Yet he only isolated ”Mary” to pester and pressure her. Why? Because he, like all of us, knew she didn’t have a backbone and that she’d be an easy target. These 2 actually did have a fling though and it was super toxic and why we’re not friends with “John” anymore. I later found out from her that he’d basically throw tantrums when she didn’t want to sleep with him.

“I thought we were friends. . .”

The person that said this was trying to get “Matt” to do their work for them. Again prior to this manipulative statement. “Matt” tried to refuse but he did so in a way that wouldn’t seem “mean” “Matt” kept saying he was really busy, had his own work to catch up on etc. Again there were other people in the group that the pushy person could’ve asked but they didn’t because they know “Matt” is too nice for his own good and with pressure he would cave eventually, so they could get “Matt” to do all the work for them.

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[–]yoshimango970 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I do now because some people just genuinely aren’t self aware. If I know them I have a convo with them if I didn’t like what I saw and then go from there.

Like with “Matt” he started dating a pushy guy, the guy isn’t malicious though, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and talked to him about “Matt’s” temperament. “Mike” the bf is much more considerate now and “Matt” is also way more comfortable vocalizing himself and enforcing his boundaries to “Mike” from what I’ve seen. When it comes to strangers cold approaching though it’s not as easy but if they get aggressive or after I back up a friends no chances are they weren’t well intended in the first place.

It’s hard to understand a gender that you’re not especially if you don’t spend a lot of time around them. Imho guys are more confusing but I’m not a man so I’m sure that’s why I don’t get certain things lol.

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I’m talking about shit like the Aziz Ansari situation, that awful “cat woman” story or (to some extent) the Louis CK situation.

In these cases these men have some kind of social status, and there is an implication there that if the woman says "no" something negative could happen to them, because these men hold some kind of power in that regard.

Same if a gay dude was hitting on me or trying to sweet talk me. If he grabs for my dick, I walk the fuck out.

If some powerful politician did that, a police officer or someone else with some kind of power did that, I doubt you would be inclined to simply walk out. People always make special pleading when it comes to rape or sexual assault, this becomes a lot more clear outside of those situations. I do not think your goal in this post is to really understand it, but rather just mansplain it away.

[–]king_of_red_alphasAll Pills Are Poison[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Again with this “implication” shit. It’s idiotic and there’s no end to situations where that card can be played.

So any time sex happens and there’s some kind of power imbalance, it’s “problematic”?

I guess that’s why women just looove to date down in social status ... oh wait.

One poster here pulled the “he knows what gym I go to!!” Lol. Really? So I’d better suck his dick or he’ll show up at my gym and drop weights on me?

Come on man.

I wouldn’t give a fuck WHO whipped their dick out. My boss. The CEO. Anybody, I’m turning right around and walking out the door. Fuck the dumb shit.

The cop example is inaccurate because he literally has the power to kill and incarcerate me. That’s not equal to losing a job.

The only way I’m touching any of their dicks is if they physically force me (ie rape) and we are now talking about something different.

You know what I wouldn’t do? Suck a dick to save my job. You’re gonna have to literally put a gun to my head.

As far as I know there was no gun involved with in the Aziz situation.

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Title	Q4W: How can you be “coerced” into sex?
Author	king_of_red_alphas
Upvotes	29
Comments	281
Date	January 4, 2020 6:18 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ejsw3x/q4w_how_can_you_be_coerced_into_sex/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4w-how-can-you-be-coerced-into-sex.306268 https://theredarchive.com/post/306268