The rise in sexlessness has more to do with Social Isolation than Tinder or Feminism.

M4sterDis4ster · 2020-02-14T19:54:54+00:00

Social isolation is usually a symptom and not a cause. Isolation occurs after being rejected by people, groups of people, by society in general.

Feelings of inferiority in social gathering ( not good looking enough for women, not athletic enough for mates etc etc ) is what leads most guys to social isolation. They have found consolidation in video games for example.

sparklingscott · 2020-02-14T18:16:14+00:00

Any theory that rests on the idea of men turning average women down is total nonsense.

mcmur · 2020-02-14T16:29:16+00:00

Now ask yourself. Would a typical guy prefer a woman who is more attractive then them or a woman that is identical to them in terms of physical attractiveness (a looksmatch if you will)?

Men's preferences aren't really relevant, the question is, what do they have the capacity to actually acquire? To get what you want requires power, and men have very little of this when it comes to sexual relationships. Sure men might have preferences, who doesn't? But what does it matter if they can't satisfy them?

What about men? I think you could narrow it down to

A) better looking

I'm not even sure I would go this far. Men will basically sleep with anything that has a vagina. There are plenty of women with men who are more physically fit, in better shape and weigh less than them.

Its their environment that is allowing them to be hypergamous not their nature forcing them to be.

Tomato tomato.

This is a moot point. It doesn't really matter why women are hypergamous, the fact of the matter is that they are. Whether its due to biology or not doesn't make it any more or less a fact of life.

busymann · 2020-02-14T16:15:34+00:00

I agree the problem is socialization failure centered around the current economic and technological conditions.

I'm a bit skeptical as to your expectations part - the idea that incels have sky high expectations because of porn or social media is something I've seen posted quite a bit but I've never gotten that impression from actually reading what they post. Most of them would probably be fine with an average or even somewhat below average partner - they simply will never get the opportunity because they are too socially isolated and too unattractive for the more anti social modes of dating (OLD).

Tomaten_Bewegen · 2020-02-14T16:13:18+00:00

I think the rising cost of living and other negative economic factors are also related. Tinder doesn’t help though.

NockerJoe · 2020-02-14T16:43:58+00:00

Social isolation is caused by social movements and modern technology. Thats the dividing factor you dingus. The rate of people going without spiked hard when facebook caught in and only got worse the year Tinder came out. You can literally plot it on a graph.

wtknight · 2020-02-14T16:37:10+00:00

Men aren’t “socially isolated” at all. Any average man can go on a dating app and get zero matches because the women are Chad chasing. This doesn’t sound like social isolation to me. The difference these days is that high quality men are made more available to average quality men due to the internet, and average quality women are more willing to have casual sex with these men.

analt223 · 2020-02-14T15:12:20+00:00

I'd argue social media and feminism is creating the isolation though. Examples:

Going on a date, the girl is on her phone large chunks of/whole time. Then wonders why the guy gives up, gets pissed, or says "fuck it im just gonna ask for her pussy" and not give af about her.
More feminists/left leaning people are realizing the effects of too much feminism. I listen to a show called The Majority Report (very left wing webshow). Theres an anarcho-feminist type cohost on the show who a few months ago said something along the lines of "if there is something patriarchy (she also said religion which is tied to patriarchy) does well is create much more social bonds that feminism hasn't been able to do as well". The reason why is because elevated men use their success to help women.
Another example, In "omg Natatlie is so BASED!" contrapoints' video called Men, she practically says women don't deem enough men fuckable to end the patriarchy. Then goes through the motions with the "we need to redefine masculinity" bullshit that feminists constantly say as lip service at best.

Elevated women use their success to help other women, themselves, or kids that grow up in fatherless homes. This notion that "once women have the good jobs theyll wine and dine the men" just isnt true. Too much feminism creates too many unattractive men which then isolates them from society.

So isolation is in fact the problem, but social media, feminism (and a few other things like the rise of AI - which is actually heavily tied to social media as well) is causing the isolation.

ifelsedowhile · 2020-02-14T17:43:18+00:00

your post is the equivalent of "unemployment is not caused by economic recession but by workers not being able to conform to our insane standards".

Grek27 · 2020-02-14T16:10:39+00:00

This is nonsense, your ending paragraph essentially is saying mens standards are too high(zero evidence of this).

rus9384 · 2020-02-14T17:56:09+00:00

I would say, on the main point I agree. The devil is in the details.

It is not social immaturity. It is that texting =/= real life. You are not going to make a girl wet simply via texts. Maybe there are exceptions for superhot guys.

So, what they say when bring Tinder is that Tinder is not capable to fix Social Isolation problem.

You can read about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_hypothesis.

Read Shaw Taylor et al. (2011) section. That was explained, people are attracted to the most attractive people (thanks, captain obvious), but only are successful with their looksmatches. Which makes the hypothesis false.

You think incels have too high standards because they don't spend time in the society, lol. Virgins can have high standards. And incels still go outside, just not to parties. They can observe what women are out there.

DangZagnut · 2020-02-14T15:12:17+00:00

There is no imperative to reproduce.

There is an urge to fuck. The consequence is reproduction.

Animals that had more of a propensity to fuck, had more offspring, who inherited the urge to fuck as well.

Those that fucked those with high beech dirt markers, had offspring that were more successful. So men are attracted to fecundity markers like ass, breasts, health, etc.

Women who had protection and provision and filtered as the primary genetic selectors had progeny that were more apt to survive so those children inherited that as well.

Since women become weakened when bearing children, they have to be selective across multiple vectors, like genetic markers, protective ability, excess resources, etc. money, looks, status all have good selection criteria for children, so women are drawn to that while simultaneously not having a comparable sexual drive because mating “wrong” will get you killed.

Men chase as many “quality” women as they can, as they are protective/provision providers, they don’t care about her status or resources, as he has those.

Why did it evolve that way, genetic drift is my guess. It just worked out that way. It became fixated in the population, then culturally and part of society.

That’s why men exploit women to fuck, and women exploit men for money.

It is what’s it is.

Sexless people? Most people aren’t. Some are. But not all in any way. There’s some societal changes, sure. Is it a big deal? I don’t think so. Fuck, don’t fuck, not a me problem.

bssftw · 2020-02-14T17:31:09+00:00

The OP doesnt understand male to female sex dynamics at all, he typed out an essay for no reason.

This is literally day one red pill shit.

See the images linked below and close the thread.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpPPzqaWwAA4tIu?format=jpg&name=small

https://i0.wp.com/therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/hypergamy-in-a-pic.jpg?resize=500%2C483&ssl=1

https://therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/hypergamy.jpg

[deleted] · 2020-02-14T16:20:59+00:00

The fact that attractive people usually wind up with similarly attractive people is not proof that everyone is just trying to max out the attractiveness in their partner, let alone sexlessness being caused by defective attractiveness sorting mechanisms among isolated individuals.

Attractiveness can be controlled to some extent. Fashion, plastic surgery, working out, diet, hair and skin and tooth care, etc. Higher socio economic brackets have more access to those things and tend to mate with each other. This is an easy example of a third variable which accounts for both parties in a relationship being physically attractive, without necessarily attempting to find a looksmatch. They could just be trying to statusmatch or incomematch, and because those things are correlated with attractiveness, looksmatch happens as a byproduct. Of course attractiveness DOES factor in, thats common sense, but not to the overwhelming extent posited by your OP.

I don’t see any solid evidence to support your theory that social competence or experience and increased acceptance of a less attractive partner are linked. If anything, the more experienced you are the greater your ability to woo and seduce and pursue others, and therefore, if anything, your ability to command a more attractive mate expands.

Finally, you also may be switching up the causality. Unattractive, damaged, depressed, autistic, etc. people tend to have a worse time socializing, causing them to seek isolation to a greater extent than attractive or relatively normal people. In effect, the social difficulty they experience drives them to isolation, rather than isolation causing their social difficulties. Of course, this may be a self reinforcing cycle, but the point is, your OP only analyzes what isolation causes and not what it may be caused BY.

Workaholiconew · 2020-02-14T16:55:16+00:00

*facepalm*

What makes you think isolation (social/romantic or otherwise) is not a consequence of, among other things technology (like tinder) and ideologies (like feminism)?

Men never stopped wanting sex and romance. The market (social, sexual, romantic or otherwise) just became more difficult to those not at the top, so those with less market value, just left it, as the resource spending was too grave and they had little to no return. It is no different from those who are leaving Brazil because of all our tax costs.

And let me be very clear, men never had that much interest in social interaction to begin with, technology and ideologies just made them let go from it altogether, because of it was more convenient. It is, for the most part, a means to an end. Not an end on itself, to most men. Men have very little social interest compared to women.

AbyssinianLion · 2020-02-14T16:11:11+00:00

This is the hundredth thread on this issue. Ive seen both good arguments and evidence from the OLD/hypergamy blaming and the social isolation/male blaming crowds. But I dont think we will know for sure what is causing the rise in male sexlessness or what is the main culprit, until we have an extensive in depth study on the sexual lifestyle of the average person under 30. Unfortunately, this issue is considered very political and controversial to a lot of powerful feminists, so that wont happen in a million years.

goneaway2thewind · 2020-02-14T16:27:41+00:00

Your thesis is somewhat accurate then I read your post and shook my head.

I really hate it when people say "natural female hypergamy". I am male by the way. To me it seems like every single human is innately built with a sense to go find the best partner available.

You dont completely understand hypergamy then. Its not as simple as find the best partner available. Guys don't only date rich girls or high status one's with no compromise. More on this later.

Maybe females have more opportunity to find partners that are "above them" in some way. But that doesn't make them more "hypergamous" then men. Its their environment that is allowing them to be hypergamous not their nature forcing them to be.

Men have the option of only punching above as well, they dont do this because this is not how men select. More on hypergamy later

What would Hypergamy look like for men? For women it is defined as trying to find a partner that is either

A) better looking

B) has a higher status

C) has significantly more resources (usually money but not always)

Okay we are finally going to break this down, all of the above is correct, but what you're missing is that this is a continuous active process. Which means even if she finds someone with these traits, she's always passively attracting men with higher degrees of this to compete against her current man. Its why they still dress up and go out with their current partners, consciously or unconsciously, its a biological process of sorting out who is most qualified for their offspring.

Do you know why women naturally moan loudly during sex? Its said that they evolved to do that to call for competing males to challenge their current partner. Its built into their DNA not only to date higher status males, but to "monkey branch" to even higher degrees once the opportunity is made available.

What about men? I think you could narrow it down to

A) better looking

Good looking, not better looking for men.

Men don't seek partners of higher status or higher resources.

Correct

We want a pretty chick to impregnate because it is fun to impregnate them and the children have a good chance of being attractive.

Incorrect. No man consciously thinks like this. Most men don't want to impregnate women by default. Men are usually terrified to find out they impregnated a woman, especially their first.

Now ask yourself. Would a typical guy prefer a woman who is more attractive then them or a woman that is identical to them in terms of physical attractiveness (a looksmatch if you will)? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

The typical guy isn't only dating for looks. You might be a superficial douche but a guy wants to date someone that makes him feel good. Temporary sex is one thing, but a guy would accept his look match for a relationship if she was more pleasant to be around. No one wants to live with a bitch. For every hot girl there is some guy tired of fucking her.

So how does this explain sexlessness?

There is an actual scientific theory about looksmatch. The scientific name is "Matching Hypothesis". You can read about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_hypothesis. They don't know why but couples tend to be matched in terms of physically attractiveness, education, social status etc.

It seems obvious to me. Attractive men are more confident to speak to attractive women. They are usually both oriented about physicality and sports so it creates a connection. If you go to a ivy league school the only people around you are other gifted people so its easier to create a intelllectual connection. If your parents were wealthy you grew up in a upper class neighborhood which means all your neighborhood friends were like you. Society is compartmentalized in this way because people tend to be around others like them to understand them on a deeper level.

Now I personally only care about the physically attractiveness part.

This draws back to my point earlier, just because that's the only factor for you don't assume this is it for most men.

The human brain is more interested in reproducing than anything else. If given the opportunity to it will reproduce with someone with "superior genetics". However that is not an imperative. The imperative is to reproduce period. If you are in an environment where the people with "superior genetics" are not available sexually your brain will naturally start to temper your expectations.

Possibly down to a genetic level, but again, no one consciously thinks they want to impregnat someone or be impregnated. This is why we wear condoms and women take birth control. They think about building a connection and having good sex. If it were just about the sex, men wouldn't need girlfriends they would just pay hookers.

The best looking people tend to have the highest standards for these reasons. When you do find an attractive person with lower standards it is almost always a result of poor self image.

Absolutely incorrect. You think with your little head far too much. There are many factors to this, but one you never factor in is contextual connection. The less attractive person could treat them well or they might've grow up together. You look at this at such a primal level as if relationships dont exist.

So how are incels and femcels created?

Yes in some cases they are just so hideous that nobody wants to sleep with them. But in most cases they are simply socially immature. This happens to both men and women. They spend most of their time indoors surrounded by Netflix, Youtube, Pornhub, Instagram, TikTok etc. Our brains have a hard time discerning the virtual world with the real world. People who are isolated have unrealistic expectations about the opposite sex.

Or maybe, because they are isolated, they arent even meeting someone compatible? How did this blow over your head? Incels aren't going to the club, finding the hottest girl, losing, then coming back to their keyboard complaining. Incels aren't meeting women in the first place. As you said before, they are isolated.

The most important part is that this happens naturally and subconsciously. A man who is properly socialized genuinely finds women attractive that a man who spends all his time jacking off to PornHub will not. This is something that takes time. You can't just socialize for 1-2 months after years of isolation and expect everything to fall in its place. It is a slow process that is supposed to take place when you are maturing.

I'm going to let you in on a secret, most guys that are in relationships, have jacked off to porn before. Most guys who socialize have jacked off to porn before. And guess what, many women have rubbed out to porn before. People don't just get off and think "Ah, now I am no longer attracted to the opposite gender" if anything, porn teases them and makes them thirst for sex more. Its actually the sex/porn addicted that are more likely to rape.

What I hate to see the most is a correct conclusion but all the reasoning to be incorrect. Sexlessness does have to do with isolation, but you aren't stating the reasons why people are isolating themselves. You only used this post to state, men are hypergamous, men's standards are too high, and men are porn addicted. I'd give you an explanation as to why people are isolated more, but apparently all you think about is sex and not why people make a conscious effort to bond on that level.

mydikishomofobik · 2020-02-15T03:46:05+00:00

Men are the ones with low standards and women are the ones with astronomical demands. The people who complain about men having standards that are too high because of porn are probably women chasing men who are hotter than them.

superlurkage · 2020-02-14T15:04:05+00:00

I agree. I know a ton of guys and teens who are normal to attractive looking, from middle to upper middle class backgrounds, who spend an ungodly amount of time playing video games, watching porn, and browsing youtube/tik tok or making their own media. They interact with their friends and few others

They also prefer to stay in with said friends instead of going out to bars n such. Modern media is very addictive and high costs of living/student debt/bad job market aren’t helping

YveisGrey · 2020-02-14T21:15:34+00:00

Lol true the real hypergamy is men watching porn. Giving them the false sense that women of all the various levels of attractiveness would actually ever date or sex them IRL. The fact that men are even "threatening" women with sex robots further proves that their expectations are literally through the roof. Are these robots ever fat with acne? NO. But ugly socially inept broke incels "deserve" an attractive slim woman, who has no wants or desires of her own, who won't demand anything at all of him. And they have the GALL to say that women are the one's being unreasonable when it comes to choosing mates. Hey at least we are still dealing with actual live human men who consciously choose to mate with us.

jewsaintwhitegoyim · 2020-02-15T03:59:01+00:00

Not in the slightest

It has already been proven when women have sexual freedom they go for the top 30% of men and ignore the rest

Tinder stats have proved this, it has been proved time and time again in numerous studies. Tinder doesn’t cause it, it simply encourages it by making it more available. You want me to quote sources well I wont because if you wanted an honest answer you could have found all this info in 5 seconds on google. Tinder did a study of some 250 women and men and found it was the same 20/30 men getting laid over and over while most of the women were getting laid but with those certain types of men.

There’s a story about in a classroom where a teacher conducted a social experiment and gave male and female pupils snacks and allowed them to share those with the opposite gender.

The girls took the snacks and immediately flocked to the 2 most attractive/popular boys in the class and shared the snacks with them and them only, this isolated the rest of the boys.

When it was the boys turn the boys shared their snacks with every female i. the class, even when the girl they wanted was taken they moved onto another, and thus everyone had some.

This is simply humans in natural, basic form. Women will always seek out the best genetics (though that is massively questionable now days as there’s a lot of women throwing that away due to daddy issues)

What this is creating is a huge pool of “incels” of men who simply cannot or barely can get laid. Being a top tier guy (trying not to use the term alpha or chad) is something you literally are or are not born with. Sure you can go to the gym but that wont increase your height, your looks, balding, intelligence and success in life. All that generally comes down to genetics even being athletic, a huge part of that is already predetermined regardless of how hard you train, unless you have one or all of those you have crapped out as a male.

Thus these men are literally stuck, and rather than increase their worth by maybe 5/10% they just opt out because they know chances are it isn’t enough

Now the next point being, what makes it more difficult is most of those guys probably don’t even want to sleep around, and you’ll hate this but they don’t want a woman that has slept around either. Truth sucks right? In a mans eye regardless of how low he is on the scale, he will always forever think he was a last choice, or lost the chance of being your first and only simply because he wasn’t good enough, he will forever feel like your the guy he settled for so you didn’t end up alone.

You’ll hate this even more. Numerous studies have shown that having multiple sexual partners has no real effect on men but for women it’s very bad. Numerous partners leads to much higher cases of depression, anxiety, lowered overall happiness. Also after her virginity the chances of a woman staying in a relationship for good drop dramatically so much so by about 6-10 guys it’s around a 20% chance. This was a study conducted by 2 female scientists, called the big book of charts and early sexual activity in females or something similar I believe but lots of other studies back this up.

Now what happens with the men is one you see on reddit all the time, they withdraw into themselves, completely step out of the game and have no input in it. They begin collecting childhood and child like toys because it reminds them of a better time, when they were not a failure, when everything was happy. They try grow a manly beard to hide a weak chin, make no effort to workout or even attempt to find a mate, often if they do they fetishise cuckoldism. They become insanely desperate that even the slightest female attention can make them unstable, clingy, creepy, stalkerish. Simply because they are completely deprived of any love or female contact, almost like someone someone dying of dehydration and just being given a sip of water for a brief second. It explains a lot of why these camgirls/ethots are so successful. It’s a no risk free win situation for these incels as they feel as though they have a pretty girls attention but deep down they know they don’t so there’s no risk of being burned again.

Anyway I digress but the point being the reason we evolved so fast as a race was simply put the nuclear family. Once we adopted this mindset we made huge leaps forward as it led to a higher rate of stable and well looked after children who grew into well rounded healthy adults and so on and so forth, regardless of the media (((they))) show constantly making it look like a train wreck.

Unfortunately with the ideals that, not so much of feminism and women having a choice but in females sexual liberation, riding a cock carousel can have absolutely no effect is absurd. Everything in life has a cause and effect. Everything.

The problem even isn’t so much so that women have this sexual liberation it’s that (((they))) encourage it so much and push for it so hard daily in media, movies, music. It’s borderline non stop.

As such we are becoming broken in societies and having more broken families and degeneracy is increasing, crime sky rocketing and we are actually regressing, Sweden is a great example of this current trend with higher sexual assault rapes than any developed nation on par with a few third world countries and the men have been completely subdued and the mass rape of these woman by foreign invaders is completely left unchecked, this though is down to bigger issues but still apart of it.

Point being without that nuclear family we are ending up with generations of lonely broken men, depressed and broken women (female suicide ratings have sky rocketed in recent years). We are chipping away at strong foundations that took several hundred years to build and we are not far from it all collapsing, not soley due to this at all but it is a large contributing factor

I by the way am a man who had a very good time on tinder and have a partner now who was a virgin. We had a lovely valentines.

Oh and if you’d like to know who (((they))) are, they appear in my username, and are the original pioneers of the breaking down of western societies, bashing the white male, destroying the nuclear family and the degeneracy we see around is everyday, for their own self benefits.

AutoModerator · 2020-02-14T14:58:48+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

joesmithasdf · 2020-02-14T18:49:59+00:00

I don’t agree with the part you say hypergamy doesn’t exist, but the logic on how people are driving themselves into lack of sex sounds correct. I’ve had my ups and downs and indeed my perception of reality changed after months with little social contact. Models and actresses were the new black, they seemed like average people.

As always, trp makes good observations and fails miserably at sociology. Most people wouldn’t live in a building designed by randos on the internet, they’d demand an engineer. But somehow they buy it when it comes to a bunch of ad hoc theories made up by guys who can’t get pussy.

[deleted] · 2020-02-15T01:19:07+00:00

Who the fuck has ever used the phrase "natural female hypergamy" with you in real life? Are you talking about psychos on the internet or are you actually running into this in real life?

Algedonic_Zeit · 2020-02-15T08:48:50+00:00

My Tinder profile disagrees.

DissonanceBadger · 2020-02-15T12:48:26+00:00

I’m tired of people using the word hypergamy incorrectly. Hypergamy has absolutely nothing to do with looks. It’s not a synonym for “looking for the best option”, it’s very specific to socio-economic factors. Hypergamy means marrying up in socio-economic status. Not looks.

ThimbleK96 · 2020-02-15T13:05:45+00:00

This is honestly one of the few reasonable posts I’ve seen on here.

[deleted] · 2020-02-15T13:16:38+00:00

It might just be that things you can do in isolation are actually more interesting that most people are.

Like most of y'all's are assholes, scumbags, whores, or some other variation of sentient trashbag who'd stick the knife in as deep as you could if it meant you could get ahead at my expense. And to add to it, most of y'all's are fucking dumb, there's not much I can learn from you that I can't learn from wikipedia, and wikipedia takes far less effort and time than pretending to care about you at all. Double for women, women are lied to their entire lives about how talented or interesting they are because dudes just want to fuck them, and they expect men to bring the entertainment while not providing any of their own.

At some point, most people recognize that you're wasting your time and energy and money with those people (unless you're a 9/10 guy or a 7/10 woman, then your life is easy and charmed) isn't worth it, so they just go do the things they actually want to do by themselves.

Cissnowflake · 2020-02-14T18:45:04+00:00

Women want to find the best partner and will ignore the rest: hypergamy.

Men want to bang as many women as possible: polygamy.

Of course everyone wants the best. But it’s women who INSIST on it. That’s hypergamy. Men and women are different in this respect.

Thetrvler · 2020-02-15T08:32:27+00:00

All I have to say is notice the consistency in the rise in modern feminism and the degradation of pretty much everything else which has to do with interpersonal relationships.

I can understand why marriage rates/full family homes were much higher before- women must be demanded what to do. If you allow them to think on their own, in most cases they will destroy everything around themselves with a smile. They don’t even like themselves.

Now, all many women are left with ultimately is to either die alone or with a man they truly resent. Men with any sense and self-esteem simply don’t put up with them to much longer after pumping and dumping them.

Title	The rise in sexlessness has more to do with Social Isolation than Tinder or Feminism.
Author	barbodelli
Upvotes	130
Comments	250
Date	February 14, 2020 2:58 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/f3tbf1/the_rise_in_sexlessness_has_more_to_do_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-rise-in-sexlessness-has-more-to-do-with-social.334994 https://theredarchive.com/post/334994