If you don't sleep, you might as well not lift.

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November 1, 2015

"Golly gee wilikers, Whisper, I work and work out until 11 pm, and then get up at 5 in the morning 6 days out of every 7, and then I eat a nutritious breakfast ( cuz' I suuuuuuure don't wanna be unhealthy! ). But when I have a rare day off, and I go out to meet girls, I just feel tired and want to go home! Whatever could be wrong? Is it my attitude?

Look, I realize some of you bros never had fathers, but Jesus fuck, how dumb can you be?

If you do not sleep, you might as well not lift.

Lifting doesn't build muscle. Lifting incentivizes your body to build muscle. To actually build muscle, you need to eat and sleep. How the fuck are you going to build muscle if you don't give your body any rest to do it in?

Look down. Right now, sitting at your computer, playing with your phone, whatever, look the fuck down.

Do you have a fat belly, but the rest of you isn't? Then you don't sleep enough. And your testosterone is low, because you're using up all the same raw materials to make the excess cortisol that's making you fat. And your workouts aren't working because your testosterone is low and your cortisol is high and you don't get any recovery time anyway and your neurotransmitters are also all out of whack because your digestive system (yes, your digestive system, you scientific illiterate) is responsible for synthesizing most of them, and it's busy being fucked by all that cortisol.

And your dick doesn't work because your testosterone is low and your cortisol is high and your neurotransmitters are fucked up.

But you can't figure out why you are "tired and depressed".

Really. It doesn't get any simpler than this. If you are tired, sleep. Your body is speaking in the clearest possible language, and if you're still not listening, then it is not your body's fault.

Give your body what it asks for. You could have learned this from a children's cartoon.

If you are tired, do not fuck. Sleep.


This was a stupid article, and I shouldn't be putting my standard "Bitcoin-instead-of-more-Reddit-Gold" address (1DChc2Azt3zGHbZcwBwPG42jL9B8SuktdD) at the bottom of it. It's a stupid article because it states the blindingly fucking obvious, which is no great feat to point out. I shouldn't be rewarded for this. But none of you should need it, and apparently some of you did. For the rest of you, I apologize for this blatant insult to your fucking intelligence.

Post Information
Title If you don't sleep, you might as well not lift.
Author Whisper
Upvotes 728
Comments 256
Date 01 November 2015 04:42 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/37749
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3r3fyb/if_you_dont_sleep_you_might_as_well_not_lift/
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[–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana135 points136 points  (91 children) | Copy

Sleep is hugely important for your athletic and muscular development. Almost any high-level athlete can tell you about the importance of sleep, especially Olympic or professional athletes where a fraction of a second can mean the difference between winning and losing.

Many top-level athletes get huge amounts of sleep. Pete Sampras, for example, was known to sleep 13 hours a day, and both Roger Federer and LeBron James sleep 12 hours a day.

I've also noticed that I tend to injure myself at the gym if I don't get enough sleep. I've made a pact with myself to skip the gym if I'm seriously lacking sleep, as it's not worth getting injured.

Sleep is also important for your mental health as well. There are millions of studies on how it cleans out toxins from your brains, helps you form long term memories, lowers stress, makes you more creative, etc.

TL;DR: Getting enough sleep is one of the simplest and most effective "life hacks" out there. If you're eating well, exercising, and getting enough sleep, you're physically far ahead of the majority of people.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (27 children) | Copy

How do they (LeBron and Federer) get so much sleep though? It's hard for me to sleep for 9 hrs

[–]anonlymouse45 points46 points  (4 children) | Copy

They probably exercise enough that their body needs that much. I find it much easier to sleep after working out.

[–]GunsGermsAndSteel5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

This. I've never been much of a sleeper, don't need much sleep, don't want much sleep. But as far as actual insomnia, it's been non-existent since I started working out consistently.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is also the answer to all the 'worrying about shit' that keeps you awake in bed. I find that if I am properly physically exhausted from a heavy workout (or even the day after when in recovery mode, honestly) that I fall asleep easily. If my gym routine gets messed up for whatever reason, my sleep get worse

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I can ONLY sleep well after working out hard.

So I have to workout every day now.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Have you ever done intense heavy exercise? I found my sleep requirements went up significantly with an increased exercise workload.

[–]Surf_Or_Die4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Work out until you wanna die and then keep going for another hour. 12 hours will feel like your getting up at 6am.

[–]watermocha4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

These guys are professional world class athletes. Their 9-5 job is train train train eat and sleep, while we have to prepare our own food drive to work through rush hour, and do our day jobs.

They can and must sleep 13 hours to earn the hundreds of thousands of dollars at the end of tournaments.

[–][deleted] 0 points0 points | Copy

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[–]jaasx35 points36 points  (14 children) | Copy

It's nice we don't have jobs and can sleep and train any time. /s

[–]1Yakatonker9 points10 points  (11 children) | Copy

Its tough especially if one's local transit system is an expensive and time consuming clustered shit hole, ie Canadian GTA. It infuriates me as there is not one fucking high speed rail in North America, hell I don't even care if the Chinese build it for us, as long as someones putting some damn initiative into governance.

[–]foldpak1114 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

My early 20's: Health is virtually non existant for me as of now. 12 hour shift plus 1 1/2 hour commute and I need my 8 hours. That leaves me with a half hour to get ready and get to bed.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy

it's really odd that you're so screwed in the US if you don't drive all over. Even driving seems a mess. In sweden I'll sometimes bitch about our public transit system but when you think about it, it works pretty well 95% of the time

[–]2rp_valiant4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy

you're from Sweden? I'm so sorry.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy

I am and thank you. It's pretty frustrating having to be the wolf in sheep's clothing constantly but such is life

Thing is though, most of what you guys see is our cultural elite front. The actual people working the typical manual labor (i.e. men) act way more traditional. It's just you'll never hear their voice because we effectively oppress anyone who thinks differently. Which is hilarious, because of a campaign run by one of the major newspapers called "We like different".

[–]2rp_valiant3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy

I think that's generally the way with all the countries that are currently blowing themselves up. I'm from the UK and here we've got crazy radfems interviewing on the BBC like they're somehow representative of the average, and yet you talk to any random individual and they'll tell you that it's all going to shit. The government's still in that "fingers in your ears and shout islamophobia/misogyny" phase and it's costing the country dearly.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy

yeah pretty much. I mean, most people I meet are very skeptical the way things are heading aside from the feminists (I don't think you even need to add 'radical' at this point. All of them) who you get to hear because they shout the loudest. Problem is that their values have become 'core' values for some god forsaken reason and we've just had our first school killing in Sweden since a long time ago and they're trying to bend themselves backwards into understanding why. Apparently he's a nazi & likes video games but my bet is that he was simply super beta and felt that he had nothing to lose & decided to get his frustrations out.

So yeah, if we are heading the same direction as the US with this bullshit I can't say it's a trend I stand behind.

[–]Surf_Or_Die0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I don't live in my mom's basement. After lunch I have to get back to work.

[–]laere36 points37 points  (31 children) | Copy

Say it with me MELA-FUCKING-TONIN.

Getting some help through things like melatonin, ZMA, or even things like phenibut (great fucking sleep, do your RESEARCH here though!!!).

I used to have a hard as fuck time sleeping, I'd always be kept awake by my active as fuck brain, worrying about dumb shit. It would take me 45min-1hr just to fall asleep. Melatonin and 2 ZMA pills makes me instantly fucking sleepy and is a godsend when wanting to get 8-9 hours of non-ass raping sleep.

Cheers to you, and /u/Whisper.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy

ZMA destroys my appetite. I end up having to force feed myself to hit calorie goals. Melatonin can make your body lazy with it's own production. I would suggest first changing things like the amount of light and amount of computer screen and light exposure ~1.5 hours post-bed before supplementing.

[–]singeblanc10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

For me the biggest difference came when I installed programs to remove the blue light from my screens (f.lux for Linux, Twilight for Android). For the first time in my life I felt tired sitting in front of my computer!

[–]Subcommandante_Khan4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I finally got dark theme for reddit. A god send.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (9 children) | Copy

Currently on phenibut hah. It's my sunday indulgence and def helps with sleep.

I sometimes take melatonin too but I use it sparingly these days. I once became dependent on it. I actually found that micro-dosing works really well as a sleep catalyst. Just break off like 0.25mg

[–]6482624 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

I fucking love phenibut. Without doubt my drug of choice. And it's a god damn Sunday drug. I feel like such an adult child sometimes. I don't like parties, but I like my drugs. Especially the ones that gives me the most blissful sleep I've ever had. You can go into the recreational levels of 1g+, but we all know we shouldn't. It's better with the small dosage a few hours before sleep.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I take a few grams every Saturday and Sunday. It's just amazing positivity and enhanced sensory experiences. It's beautiful stuff.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm the same way... not really into parties, although I'd like to try some festivals like Shambhala with people on the same wavelength. I love drugs/nootropics but only certain ones. Need to do a cost/benefit analysis first haha. But is phenibut ever the best Sunday drug. Go for a walk with the iPod, ponder about your goals and progress, grab a coffee to exacerbate the effects, do some chores, lift weights, play poker. That's my day today. The only times I've done 1g+ I end up feeling sick.

[–]laere1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

I also heard lower doses seem to work better too.

[–]drallcom33 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

I take 1.5mg melatonin every night and it's very nice. 3mg has a much lower effect and with 9mg it's like taking nothing at all.

I recommend trying 1, 1.5 and 2mg, then see what worked best.

[–]AntixD 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy

does your body get accustomed to it? and eventually the effect wears off after time?

[–]drallcom32 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Doesn't wear off so far after maybe 2-3 months. It's also not a wonderdrug, it just makes you more tired and the sleep a bit deeper. Keeping a good sleep rhythm is equally important.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's what I heard too. I mean 10mg will knock me out but then I wake up feeling artificially rested at 2am.

[–]draketton0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Melatonin is good but be prepared to waste $50 on brands and doses that do nothing for you until you find one that works.

[–]rothkochapel0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

in my experience schiff = shit, nature's bounty works better, swanson is the best

[–]draketton0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I settled on source naturals as my go to

[–]AntixD 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

does your body get accustomed to it? and eventually the effect wears off after time?

[–]RedPillScare1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

No, but you can become dependent. Google it, son!

[–]cobalt17280 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Im sorry but I tried melatonin, different dosages, different timings and not once have I noticed a fucking difference with melatonin

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

As someone who has worked swing shift for years, melatonin has been a huge help for several years now

[–]foldpak1110 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Swing shift is alright. Graveyard was a bitch. If you ain't supplementing Vit D you're in for a lot of pain.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I actually get 15 days off a month and spend allot of time in the sun.

[–]foldpak1110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That's awesome. Hope I get to the eye of the storm as well and get some peace.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy

What about Diphenhydramine HCL. It's the active ingredient in NyQuil and knocks me right out. Melatonin doesn't work too well on me.

[–]teashroomed6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

It actually prevents REM sleep and has been linked to dementia :-(

[–]Purecorrupt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So ZQuil - would not recommend?

[–]boscoist0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What about Diphenhydramine HCL. It's the active ingredient in NyQuil and knocks me right out. Melatonin doesn't work too well on me.

Its a sedative, it forces you down but doesn't provide restful sleep. Use sparingly or as an antihistamine. Never combine with alcohol

[–]SW987610 points11 points  (18 children) | Copy

I feel like I need 10 hours of sleep to function, whereas everyone else is fine on 6.

[–]singeblanc5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

"Fine" is relative. Personally I'm useless if I build up a sleep debt outside of my 8 hour a night average.

[–]youeatlikeachild5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Get a sleep test at a sleep lab, host of issues from restless leg, sleep apnea, fucked up nasal passages etc.

My buddy had surgery to open his nasal passages and it changed his life, he was getting something like 30% of the oxygen he should be getting and was always tired, could sleep 20 hours a day.

I have sleep apnea, they want me to use the machine for best results but breath right strips and a custom mouth tray have had a huge impact for me, adding at least 3 hours of real sleep I was missing before.

[–]singeblanc0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think at 8 hours a night I'm getting the perfect amount of sleep, no?

Anyway, a piece of counter-advice on the nasal surgery: my uncle had the same and ended up completely losing most of his sense of taste and smell - and he was a real foody before!

[–]PianoIsGod2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

From my experience: regular intense exercise paired with Zinc, Magnesium, Melatonin at night, and Vitamin D, Fish Oil, and Aspirin in the morning cured me of my crazy need for lots of sleep.

Also, I started making it a priority to relax and refresh my mind and body daily, and since have seen an increase in how deep my sleep is, and how much energy I have in the morning. I seriously recommend checking out Mike Cernovich for everything mind and body - that man changed my life.

[–]2awalt_cupcake1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Why the asprin? And wouldn't your body build a resistance to that?

[–]maiway0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

You may have sleep apnea or other sleep disorder, causing your sleep quality to be lower, thus requiring more quantity. That's what it was for me. Used to need 9 hours, now fine with 6.

[–]bluedrygrass1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

How did you fix sleep apnea?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

wearing a mask when you sleep for the rest of your life

[–]2awalt_cupcake1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

That's gay. Any alternatives?

[–]TheBloodEagleX1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Losing weight tends to help (if you are overweight).

[–]youeatlikeachild0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

breath right strips and those mouth trays that help open your airway work for me, eventually I'll cave and get that annoying fucking machine, can't limit your health because you want to look cool sleeping.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

You sleep in cycles of 90 minutes, so you need either 10.5 hours of sleep, or 9 hours (with an hour to actually get to sleep).

[–]SW98760 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

I try to do that. It's hard since I don't know how long it will take me to fall asleep. If I set aside an hour and it takes me only 20 minutes to fall asleep, I'll be 40 minutes into my next sleep cycle. Also, doesn't that just make you groggy when you wake up, but not actually affect you much after you get up?

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You'll still stay groggy for a bit, which can cause some brain farts as you start your day. What I do is check the time when I wake up naturally, if I have less than 90 minutes left before I need to be up, I just get up then.

[–]SW98761 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I never wake up naturally. If I slept naturally i'd sleep for like 14 hours.

[–]anonlymouse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That shouldn't happen forever, once you catch up on the sleep you're missing you should be waking up naturally at more reasonable time (6, 7.5 or 9 hours).

[–]TheBloodEagleX0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It also depends on cycles, not just hours! This site is really helpful: http://sleepyti.me/

A good night's sleep consists of 5-6 complete sleep cycles. A full sleep cycle lasts about 90 minutes and is normally repeated several times each night.

If you're waking up before a cycle natural ends, you end up feeling kinda shitty and not well rested. Everyone has a different circadium rhythm though but try the site above out.

[–]1Snivellious3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I found real progress on strength and wellness when I stopped working out on low-sleep days. I was stuck between succeeding at a shitty, low-weight set and failing and risking injury on a quality set.

Neither of those were productive, but taking a fucking nap (or going to bed earlier) is.

[–]foldpak1115 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

There will be periods were sleep deprivation is necessary: The first couple of years starting a business, aggressively building a 6 month emergency fund, getting out of debt or any other fucked up situation you find yourself in.

[–]AllCircuitTeam1052 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Tom Brady sleeps at like 9

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I remember Ray Lewis saying at the end of his career his regiment (besides deer antlers) in the offseason was working out 2-3 hours a day and sleeping 12-14 hours at night. Looks like it was a big reason he was able to play effectively till his retirement.

[–]occupythekitchen3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

I also sleep 10 to 12 hours a day and if I get 7 or 8 I can function well but sleeping so much really fucks everything up

[–]ThorMonkey 30 points30 points [recovered] | Copy

The only thing I take issue with here is that some folks (like myself) have chronic insomnia and just can't get 8+ hours and I'm certain that I would be doing a lot worse if I didn't lift.

Gains are slow, but they're there and my compound lifts are still going up slowly despite being a relatively old fart of 35 years old that just started lifting at 33.

Advice I would give to my fellow insomniacs is to keep a consistent bedtime and wake up time routine and still allow for a minimum of 8.5 hours in bed even if you know you won't be sleeping for the duration. Shut your screens off at least an hour before pillow time, install flux on your computer, get rid of your bedroom clock, avoid caffeine after noon. Learn to meditate and don't get upset when the inevitable middle of the night wake ups happen. It's not the same as sleep (duh), but embracing the down time and resting your body/mind will still be better than hopping on your computer or tablet or getting stressed and pissed off about not sleeping.

I also recommend experimenting with low dosages of melatonin. I find that 1-3mg just before bedtime has me down and out for 2 sleep cycles (3 hours) within a few minutes of hitting the pillow. I can usually get another 2 cycles within the 8.5 hour window, leaving me with 6 hours for the night, which is a whole lot better than the 0-3 hours I was averaging previously.

Tackling insomnia is not really that different from starting to lift, fixing your diet, etc. Come up with strategies and implement them, stick to it, learn what works for you and what doesn't.

[–]frequentlywrong13 points14 points  (5 children) | Copy

Have you tried eating more magnesium? I had huge insomnia problems and it was all caused by a lack of magnesium. Try eating more dark greens like spinach or taking chelated magnesium supplements.

Taking melatonin is basically a band aid solution.

[–]ThorMonkey 7 points7 points [recovered] | Copy

Magnesium deficiency can definitely play a role. However, too much can also be a bad thing by causing either a calcium deficiency (Ca and Mg compete for same receptor sites) or dehydration. I've noticed that if I take the recommended 3 ZMA pills before bed I'm likely to wake up after 1 sleep cycle, whereas if I reduce my dosage to 1 or 2, I'll almost always get a 2nd cycle in before waking up.

[–]frequentlywrong2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is why I try to maintain my magnesium/calcium levels by eating a lot of green vegetables like spinach and kale. It works much better than pills in my opinion. I do supplement d3, zinc and vitamin c.

Do you wake up in the night and your mind starts wondering/racing from thought to thought? If so the cause is something called "adrenaline dominance". You can fix it by eating some coconut oil before going to bed. Coconut oil is a very effective brain fuel and will keep the brain calm during the night.

[–]Casanova-Quinn2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Check if your ZMA pills contain calcium. Some do, and it's not good; calcium blocks zinc and magnesium absorption (thats means no dairy before bed btw). Also watch for the "oxide" or "sulfate" types of the mineral, which have a poor absorption rate. I just buy zinc chelate* and magnesium citrate* separately, with good results.

Edit: *

[–]GoatwithHorns1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If I take magnesium and zink together before bed I often find myself having to pee in the middle of the night. For that reason I'm considering taking it when I wake up instead.

[–]foldpak1110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Calm is a really good product to consume before bed. Eat plenty of spinach and broccoli throughout the day and drink calm before bed time. Sleep feels real good.

[–]ANUS_CONE4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I came here to say this. I used to have chronic insomnia, and have overcome it to an extent through some lifestyle changes. To this day though, I still average about 5 hours per night. I recover and make gains just fine lifting 4 days per week. Sure, perfect conditions, meaning perfect sleep, perfect diet, having the time to be 200% consistent will always yield better results than if one or more links in the chain are weak, but that doesn't mean "you might as well not lift".

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

5hrs sleep gains crew checking in TOOT TOOT

[–]GoatwithHorns1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Seriously? Can caffeine mess with your sleep if it's taken after noon? I should really cut down on my energy drinks and eat a banana before working out instead of taking one.

[–]mpnsk0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You know what biological half-life is? Like that radioactivity stuff that never truly goes away? Do a google image search if you need inspiration. See the curve that is really high and falling steep on the left but is really long on the right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine - On the right at "Biological half-life". It is 3 to 7 hours.

This means that if you drink two cups of coffee at 3 pm the caffeine of one cup of coffee will guaranteed be in your system at 6 pm and might still be in your system at 10 pm.

The caffeine of half a cup of coffee will guaranteed be in your system at 9 pm and might still be in your system at 5 am. It is literally equivalent to drinking half a cup of coffee at 9 pm / 5 am!

You will feel the real big effect in the first hour after drinking because there you get the real big hit and the curve is high. Later you won't feel it because you did stuff and are tired and if you drink it regulary you build up a tolerance. But it is still there at maybe 10% effect obstructing your sleep.

So whatever you do.. don't drink that 6 pm coffee because you "need that extra edge" to finish work or are "feeling tired"! Yeah you will still get sleep later on but it won't be a good one.

[–]occupythekitchen0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Interesting I need to try melatonin I just don't want to fuck with sleeping pills

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

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[–]BangkokPadang8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy

20-30mg is 10x the recommended amount.

Many people actually find that lower doses (<.5mg) work better, but 1.5-3mg is the recommended place to start.

30mg is ridiculous.

[–]Purecorrupt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I wake up in the middle of the night after what i assume to be 2 or 3 REM cycles almost every night. Not sure when it started - probably bad habits in college. Makes me think I should get checked out for insomnia, but not sure what a doctor could actually do to help.

[–]beginner_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Similar boat than you. Rather old and sleep problems. Still lifting clearly has helped improve my looks and it wasn't time wasted. Better to lift "inefficient" than play video games or watch TV.

Of course you must be realistic about the outcome and also focus on other changes in your life style. You probably should not waste money on any supplements or protein powder stuff until you got your sleep habits in control.

[–]Lt_Muffintoes-5 points-4 points  (1 child) | Copy

According to studies, insomniacs only get around half an hour of sleep less per night, it just feels like more.

[–]DannyDemotta43 points44 points  (42 children) | Copy

Related: Too many people work out for too many hours on too many days, also contributing to lack of recovery and plateauing strength/size.

If your Bench is, say, 185lbs max...you don't need to be doing a 2-hour chest workout with 9 different exercises. You may put on some muscle that way, but you won't get stronger. You need to cut back on volume significantly, and lower your rep ranges from 8-12+ down to 3-5. Once your Bench has improved - to 275, 295, 315 - then those 2 hour workouts will actually mean something. Until then, you just look like an idiot throwing up baby weights for hours on end.

When was the last time you saw one of your YouTube heroes benching or squatting 135 for working sets? Probably never - 135 is a warm-up. Those guys didn't get huge curling 20lb dumbbells for 10 sets/10 reps. They did it by doing pull-ups/chin-ups, then weighted chin-ups/pull-ups, THEN focusing on direct bicep work. You just don't see it because they did it years ago. That routine you're copying from them, or from the muscle mags/websites? Not gonna work for you because you haven't done the groundwork.

This is the life of a Natty lifter. None of this is applicable if you're on hormones/HGH/etc. Can't give advice on that.

[–]TractorOfTheDoom10 points11 points  (10 children) | Copy

Do a strength routine for 6 months. You will also grow, since the volume is almost the same as in hypertrophy routines. volume = weightrepssets.

[–]LolBrah1237 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy

Not quite. Do a strength routine for as long as the gains are coming. That could be 6 months, could be only 3 - everyone is different.

Once you are no longer able to consistently add weight to the bar, consider yourself an intermediate.

[–]laere1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

when would you drop from a 5x5 squatting 3 times a week routine to one with a little bit less volume, like 3x5, since the weights going up like crazy?

[–]LolBrah1231 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you're a beginner on 5x5 Stronglifts, when you've had to deload your weights (generally 10% off whatever you were doing) 2-3 times. A deload happens when you've stalled on a certain weight for three workouts in a row.

[–]DannyDemotta9 points10 points  (6 children) | Copy

Very true.

Size Strength is most correlated with stimulus (weight/resistance), not time under tension (hypertrophy). You can easily do both, but its best to get your strength in first when you're the freshest - THEN do your high-volume stuff. This is especially true on a cut because recovery/energy/CNS fatigue will be at a premium.

Starting Strength and similar programs are about 70/30 strength vs size, so its a good mix.

Edit: Strength is most correlated, not Size. Benching 135 for 5, 10, 15 reps is no guarantee your 1-rep on bench will be 225lbs. You'll just get better and better at Benching 135. Weight is also correlated with Size, but not to the same degree that Weight is correlated with Strength.

[–]Interversity3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy

Size is most correlated with stimulus (weight/resistance), not time under tension (hypertrophy).

What do you mean by size here?

[–]fusionpoo2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Literal size, If you want larger muscles you need to lift heavy. Doing low reps with high weight.

[–]SilkTouchm5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Doing low reps with high weight is going to give you strength, not size.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good catch, used the wrong word there. Was on mobile, at the gym making gainz, and didn't proofread well enough. I edited it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

I was at the gym for an hour. This dude worked out his biceps the entire time...of course his legs looked like twigs.

I can hammer out my entire split in an hour. I have no idea how people can spend hours in the gym unless they a a professional builder/athlete.

[–]DannyDemotta2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I do Push/Pull on the same day, and for my heavy compounds (Bench, weighted Pull-Ups), I'm taking 4-minute rest breaks. So a 5x5 Bench alone, with warm-ups, can take about 30 minutes. Pull-ups, another 30. Then, yeah, the rest is done in about an hour or so - less rest, more super-sets, etc. Took me about 2:15 on Saturday, about 35 total sets.

[–]2red4u0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I do PHAT, and you're hard-pressed to complete that in under 90-120 minutes.

I always wonder if I'm working out too much / for too long, but it's a pretty highly recommended program.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Always confuses me when I see someone doing, say, Starting Strength... sets of 5..and they're taking 60 seconds between sets. Dafuq? I get they don't want to wait 10 minutes between sets, but they're not going to progress very much/very long rushing through that quickly.

PHAT works, man. It's a good program. Good programs can take a long time. You need lots of rest so you can be refreshed and get the most power/explosiveness out.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I don't mean to discredit any of your knowledge and experience with this kind of thing, but the issue with this kind of advice over the internet, especially on a forum, is that movement awareness is best shared through movement PLUS information/wisdom, not information/wisdom MINUS movement and MINUS awareness of who the sender even is. To add on to this, this type of advice is HIGHLY individual. This will never apply to or benefit all of the individuals who are not smart enough to keep this in mind.

Like I said, not to discredit you, but if you are reading this and think you are benefitting from this or ANY kind of information that has neglected to reciprocate the information sharing (i.e. who you are and where you are PERSONALLY and INDIVIDUALLY with movement, exercise, strength, etc.), think twice.

[–]daprospecta0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Former D1 athlete and avid weight lifter here. Everything you said is correct. You are leaving out something very important. Strength training is not a taxing workout from a stand point of burning calories. Sure, a heavy squat or bench will cause you to lose your breath but you are resting for five minutes. Now, look at the guy doing 10 reps every 45-60 seconds. He is probably breaking a sweat and his heart rate is consistently elevated. If you are doing a strength training program with little cardio(some say it decreases gains), your diet better immaculate. I have lifted heavy weight on the big 3 lifts and while it was rewarding, it was not amazing like the first time I dunked a basketball or hit a home run in baseball. I personally want to LOOK like I lift heavy. I don't care to impress anyone in the gym with my lifts.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Makes sense. But if you want to look like you lift weights, there's better ways to do it than glorified cardio. Thats why (actual) Bodybuilders do lots of incline walking, stairs, etc - they break a sweat and elevate their heartrate, but they dont cut into their recovery doing so. They're basically just killing time, not trying to push themselves to the limit.

Think of it like this. Which is going to build more muscle - 3x10 of bench at 225 or 3x10 of bench at 135lbs? ...you already know. But to get to that 225 for sets, you need to be doing a strength training program (3-4 days/week, mostly compounds), not a PPL Cardio program (6 days, random ass shit for high reps). You'll get a pump on a PPL but you wont build strength at an appreciable rate--and your size gains will eventually grind to a halt. Theres too many people basically on a pure Hypertrophy program, but you need Strength to push those size gains.

I lift, and look like it. I have Show muscles that are also Go muscles. Do i do some pump/high-rep work--of course....AFTER my strength work. I do cardio too, legit cardio, HR in the 180s or higher for 15-20+ minutes. I only do 1 full leg day workout per week...still making gains.

Im not an athlete and never have been. Cant dunk (yet?). Never good enough to make any teams. And real talk - not good enough to be a competitive Bodybuilder OR Powerlifter, even at the regional level. I just work really hard once i get inside the doors, and through a decade of trial and error, this is what i've found to work.

Its not steroids or GH, or low-carb or fasting. No bands, board presses, chains or other gimmicks. Just proper form, good programming and adjusting on the fly. It kills me to see so many people dedicated to the gym and making zero gains (size OR strength) because they keep getting bad advice for their own goals. Thats why i keep speaking up.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] -5 points-4 points  (3 children) | Copy

None of this is applicable if you're on hormones/HGH/etc.

Yes, it is. It's the same except with heavier weights.

[–]Joseph_the_Carpenter10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Steroids can cover up a lot of mistakes. You will get way way better and faster results following a smart program on them but also see progress dicking around for 2 hours in the gym every day.

[–]DannyDemotta7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

No, it's really not. You didn't elaborate enough for me to tell what exactly about my statements you disagree with.

I'm not against gear - do whatever you want, if you feel that's the best decision for you and your family. But if someone is on gear, then YOUR post about sleeping is irrelevant because you won't need tons of sleep to grow muscle. Your test will be sky high no matter what.

I mostly added that gear part as an addendum - because invariably, some smart-ass is going to pop up and talk about his mad gainz and "you don't know what you're talking about" etc, but won't mention all the shit he's taking on the side.

[–]NaturalAlpha690 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck, you juice but you haven't got a clue about lifting. Please do some reading about training styles.

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy-4 points-3 points  (19 children) | Copy

Any help ive been lifting heavy and i go up in weight in every muscle group except chest... I struggle to rep 225 twice. I try everything to drop sets...to pause reps. I tend to work out at 185 or 205

I do decline , incline , flat. Fly's and then i do some cool down on the machines.

My decline and incline are even lower

To give you perspective: Im 179lbs 5'8" 23 Endomorph Deadlift 405 Squat 315 Curl 105 (maybe more) lbs Shoulder press (sitting) about 225 +

I cant keep up with any of my gym buddies on chest days, I also really want some type of cleavage and depth to my chest.

[–]DannyDemotta1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy

You can shoulder press 225? Are you talking about 3" range of motion, or lowering it all the way to your chest?

You may be overworking your chest if you're doing the aforementioned 2-hour Chest workout - it just isn't necessary. I'd recommend something like this:

On a cut: assuming 1RM of 225, 5-4-3-AMRAP (as many reps as possible) at 65%, 75%, 85%, 95% - so 145, 170, 190, 215. The first few sets should feel light - if you're struggling to finish the 85% set, then you know you dun goofed.

On a bulk: 1RM of 225, 4x5/1xAMRAP - 65%, 70%, 75%, 80%, 90% - on the 5th set you may only get 3 reps, but if you can squeeze out a 4th (or 5th?), then that's awesome. --- If you trust your form/have a spotter, do a 5x3 instead and switch to 70, 75, 80, 85, 95%.

You're going to get your most effective strength gains in the 3-5 rep range. 1/2 reps will also build strength, but you'll fry your CNS and torpedo your strength for the rest of the workout. Once you get in your strength work - you can do your Dips, Incline, DB Fly, etc in higher rep ranges to build muscle.

It's tough when you have lagging body parts. My bench stalled a while back, which may or may not have been related to me ignoring Back for so long. Once i started to do Pullups/Rows/Deadlift, my Bench started climbing again. Best of luck to you in figuring this out!

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

i fucked up because i can on a good day rep 225 1-3 times. But on some days i struggle with 185. Its extremely , mixed. I dont even like bench anymore, because.

BUT i will work with these numbers regardless and see how i feel and how it works out for me.

I want to start bulking, but im starting to realize its a lot harder to eat right during a bulk. I gotta find a diet that works first , because i dont want my bulk to be dirty. Just lost a nice amount of weight. I dont want to completely ruin my new look

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm a Black guy with long arms, so I know the struggle. You just have to get everything in-line:

7-8 hours Sleep nightly

Not overworking Chest (2+ hours twice per week is too much, 1 hour twice per week is just fine)

Not maxing out every set (if your 5-rep max on bench is 180, DO NOT do a 5x5 at 180! Do a 5x5 you can hit all the reps on)

Rest breaks (3-5 minutes between sets, stretch your legs or do calf presses, get some water, track your food intake, etc, if you get bored)

Form (elbows don't flare out too much, don't tuck too much, grip just wider than shoulders....touch chest LIGHTLY....controlled push back up)

And also.....working out Back/increasing your Deadlift. My bench was stalled for the longest time, then I started taking my Deadlift serious, and now Bench is going back up. Being able to get your entire body tight makes it easier to control the bar up and down, and squeeze every last ounce of strength you have out of you. Deadlift teaches you how to put 100% of yourself into a lift. If there's a lot of "slack" in your press, you'll see the bar wiggle, your legs will get all wobbly, and you'll risk injury.

I hate bulking because every single bulk turns into a dirty bulk. Frozen burritos, muffins, all kinds of crap! Luckily I do lots of cardio so I burn a lot of it off.

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Why more reps less weight on a bulk?

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Depends on what portion of the workout......not quite sure what you mean.

To build strength, you want to be using the highest weight you can, with the best form possible, for the most reps. Your "1 rep" is usually kind of shit form, right? So you want to find your 3-rep weight - and use that to make yourself stronger. On a cut, your energy is at a premium, so you have to make absolute sure you're doing a 3-rep max, or 5-rep max, while you're still close to 100%.

Say you can 3-rep 225 on Bench - a good Bench strength workout would be 5 sets of 3 reps at 215, 4 minute rest breaks. You'll train your body to get really good at 3-repping a weight close to, but not quite, your 3-rep max. If you attempt to do a 5x3 with your 3-rep max, you might get 2 good sets down, then the last 3 will go to shit real quick. So you want a weight that's lower, but not too much lower, so you can actually get all the reps in.

A good Bench size workout would be 3x10 @ 175, 90 second rest breaks. The first set should be easy, the 2nd should burn a little bit, and the 3rd set you should be really working to get the last few reps in. If not, you can try upping the weight 5-10lbs, cutting the rest break down to 60s, etc. If it's the opposite, and you do like 10-8-7 reps, then you know it's too much weight.

It's possible, but difficult, to build strength on a cut. It's all but impossible to build size on a cut. And of course, on a bulk, it's easy to build size and strength. Strength drives size - Size DOESN'T drive strength. Long story short: bulk or cut, you MUST prioritize strength, or you'll stall your progress.

[–]MustBeNice0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Okay I'm a moron and don't understand your explanation but here are my bench stats and I've been stalled for about 6 months now and it's killing me.

  • 1RM: 245? IDRK as I never max out.
  • 225: 4 reps, 3 clean, last one's a bit shaky.
  • 195: 8 reps
  • 175: 12 reps
  • 135: 25 reps

  • all these stats are after I've burned out my triceps with 15 min of intense tricep only exercises. I do this because I assume it helps me focus more strictly on pectorals when I bench, or is this a stupid strategy?

Using these stats can you give me a quick flat bench "benchmark"? Thanks.

[–]bertmaklinFBI1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I do this because I assume it helps me focus more strictly on pectorals when I bench, or is this a stupid strategy?

Great strategy (pre-exhaust) if you are trying to work on your mind muscle connection with your chest or focusing on growth (size) for your chest. It is completely stupid if you are going for strength on the bench.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

What bertmaklinFBI said - STOP burning out your triceps first. You're using bodybuilder techniques, but your focus right now should be on gaining strength. You need your triceps to lock out the weight. If you want more focus on your pecs, use a wider grip - just a couple fingers wider than you would normally bench at.

On Chest day, the very first thing you should be doing is going straight to the bench. Not to cables, not doing pull-ups, not the treadmill...go STRAIGHT to the bench, and start warming up.

Bar x 5-10 reps

95lbs - 4-5 reps

135 - 2-3 reps

Then get started. No need for 8 warm-up sets. Don't do push-ups in-between sets. STOP doing shit other than benching, before OR during your sets!! Damn it.

Looking at your numbers, it looks like you have a lot of endurance but not as much strength. I bench like 50% more than you, but I wouldn't be surprised if your chest is just as big if not bigger. To get dem strength gainz try something more like this:

3 sets of 5 reps, 1 set of 3 reps, 1 set of AMRAP (as many reps as possible, get a spotter)

Set 1: 5 reps @ 155

Set 2: 5 reps @ 170

Set 3: 5 reps @ 185

Set 4: 3 reps @ 205

Set 5: AMRAP @ 225

So the first couple sets here are going to seem easy as shit - and that's GOOD. You should only start to feel a little hesitant doing the last rep on the 4th set. Then you're ready for the main event - the max-out set, and you should still be very close to 100%, but also fully warmed up and in-sync.

You should be taking a bare minimum of 3 minutes between sets. If you're trying to get a pump, sure, 60-90 seconds. But for strength, it's all about being as close to 100% as you can. I take 4-minute breaks in-between Bench/Squat sets - on Deadlift, closer to 5 minutes.

Once you're done with this Strength portion, find some other compounds (dumbbell bench, landmine press, etc) and get your volume/bodybuilding work in - don't do any chest/tri/delt-specific burnout until all your compounds are done. Remember, the longer the rest break = the more weight you'll be able to do for the most reps - and that ultimately leads to more strength. You're telling your body "get stronger", instead of telling it "Lift the same amount of weight, but for more reps".

I'd recommend working Chest no more than 2x per week - do your 1 weekly "mega" Chest workout, then 3-4 days later, repeat the Bench workout, and MAYBE 1 other compound (DB Bench, etc), and that's it. Give your chest time to recover and you'll get stronger.

My Push workout looks something like this:

Flat Bench - 3x5, 1x3, AMRAP - 4 minutes rest

Incline Bench - 4x8 - 3 minutes rest, going for speed here, If I'm grinding the weight-it's too heavy

Dips - 3x12 - 2 minutes rest, strict focus on form

Cable Fly Machine - 3x12 - 1 minute rest, very slow reps...HUGE pump

And that's mostly it. I might add a few 2x10 of Tricep Pushdown, Lateral DB Raises, etc, but not too much else. I get my strength, speed/explosiveness, and size/hypertrophy work in - and get out.

[–]foldpak1110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Strict press @ 225# is insane. Took me 2 years of consistent effort to reach 185# with perfect form.

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy-2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy

Fuck my bad. Thats on a smith machine For the shoulder press. But i have a perfectly good reason for using it. It. Just allows us to put the heaviest load on the targeted muscles. We follow up with dumbells and skip shoulder pressing with a free weight barbell

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Whatever hits the muscle the hardest. Just keep in mind, those bars don't count as 45lbs. And if the bar doesn't touch your upper chest, it doesn't "count" as a rep. If you're just going down to eye/chin level, you're working out triceps as much, if not more, than shoulders.

Unless you have shoulder problems - I'd cut the weight, lower all the way to the collarbone - get some proper reps in. Wear a belt if you need to - Shoulder pressing can tweak your back at higher weights, especially with Barbell.

[–]relevantusernam350 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Heaviest load on the muscle/ smith machine : pick one.

[–]bertmaklinFBI-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy

Why are you making things so complicated?

Progressive overload. Its that simple.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

It's not that simple. Not all Progressive Overload is created equal. If you do a 3x5 at 225, complete all the sets, then do 230, and continue in a like manner - eventually you're going to slam into a wall. This is why Starting Strength is called Starting Strength...not Forever Strength. Progressive overload is a concept - not a specific set/rep/intensity scheme.

OP has clearly put in work, and I'm about 95% certain he's already done an SS/SL type program, and is now at the point where sets-across doesn't work for him any more. The best way to up the ante is to ramp up the intensity, do one top set in the 3-5 rep range, then add in some back-off sets. If you want to get stronger, you don't hammer your muscles with volume - you want peak intensity for 1-2 top sets.

[–]bertmaklinFBI-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Look up the actual definition of progressive overload. Did you read it? Suggesting someone lift certain percentages is over complicating the matter. Increasing gradual stress (volume, weight, reduced rest periods, static holds, etc.) over time will create results. KISS.

If you want to get stronger, you don't hammer your muscles with volume - you want peak intensity for 1-2 top sets.

You are coming off as very inexperienced. You can get strong by doing more volume of a particular weight. Also by increasing volume capacity and then deloading into a lower volume routine like DC training always produces strength gains (more reps, less fatigue, more total poundage lifted etc).

Unfortunate for you because your linear beliefs in training will only get you so far.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You're speaking in a lot of general bullshit with no specifics, no links, no research, no numbers, no plan. Good for you.

We cant all just sit around and pop shit. Some of us actually attempt to put together plans for other people.

I'm not worried about my progress. I'm at 1200+ and i work 50 hours a week at UPS. Ill never put 100% into lifting, its a hobby to me. And yet.....i still havent peaked. Not even close. Strong and getting stronger.

Thanks for nothing, shit-talker.

[–]bertmaklinFBI0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Some of us actually attempt to put together plans for other people

That's the problem. Your plan sucks.

Ill never put 100% into lifting, its a hobby to me.

So leave the advise to professionals instead of some dude that delivers amazon packages and thinks working out after a full time job deserves some type of medal.

[–]DannyDemotta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Still seeing nothing but bitching, from a nothing bitch.

Theres my plan. And zero plan from you. Deal with it and quit being a fucking idiot. Either that or come up with an alternative plan. It doesnt have to be this difficult.

[–]silverfox00711 points12 points  (5 children) | Copy

"Do you have a fat belly, but the rest of you isn't? Then you don't sleep enough. And your testosterone is low, because you're using up all the same raw materials to make the excess cortisol that's making you fat."

Could someone explain this in simpler terms for someone retarded like me. When he mentions raw material is he talking about food? And I don't know what cortisol is either.

I was under the impression that as I get older my metabolism slows down. And my diet has not changed much from when I was younger. I drink mainly water and try to stay away from fast food. But I eat late, big portions, have stopped exercising, and sleep about 6 hours a night.

[–][deleted] 12 points12 points | Copy

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[–]majorchamp6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I've done IF for several years. Used to believe in the 'magic' of 'burning fat for fuel'. It's since been debunked. That said, I continue cause I have more energy with a fasted workout than with food in my system, and I also prefer bigger meals versus smaller 300 calorie ones. IF is a tool like anything else.

[–]rpscrote2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

only shysters and snake oil salesmen ever said anything like "intermittent fasting is magic for burning fat for fuel." Reputable sources, like the IF guy himself Martin Berkhan, have always said it is a tool and a proof-of-concept that 6 meals a day "to keep the metabolism fire stoked" is pure broscience.

[–]laere1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You should check out the Leangains sub, Martin is a fucking beast now.

[–]foldpak1111 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Cortisol feels like painful vibrations throughout your body. Pulling all-nighters and stress will do it to you.

[–]Redasshole32 points33 points  (9 children) | Copy

I knew a guy who were sleeping only 3-4 hours a day. I don't remember what his job was. It was a good job, like attorney. During the night he used to write books. Then he died, around 40 years old, without being sick or anything.

[–]SpinalArt12 points13 points  (4 children) | Copy

Fuck. I'm like this. I hope I don't die soon.

[–][deleted] 7 points7 points | Copy

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[–]SpinalArt6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

It's not that I can't sleep. I've been working two jobs to get back on my feet after a custody battle and my priority has been my finances while everything else takes a backseat. Good news is that I'm only doing this for two more months but I still worry about it's effects later on.

[–]RedPillScare5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Chronic sleep deprivation is bad, but getting sufficient sleep again usually reverses the effects. Just don't make a lifetime out of it.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

i know a guy who slept 8 hours and he died without being sick at 25


[–]PlanB_pedofile0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That's almost going to be me if I don't get out of this rat race working 70 hour weeks in a shit economy.

[–]Riddick_15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fact: Muscles are Built during your Rest period.

[–]Lord_NShYH3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is so true. Recently, my body has been demanding sleep louder than ever before, and I have had to listen. I'll be 31 in about a week, and all though my 20's, I have been crushing it in my career at the expense of my health (I have been in and out of shape a few times since my teens). Well, now I have been lifting, doing cardio, eating right, and finally getting enough sleep.

I haven't felt this great - and haven't had such a powerful libido - since my early 20's.

SLEEP. It is absolutely necessary to stay on top of your game.

[–]ColdEiric9 points10 points  (6 children) | Copy

It's a stupid article because it states the blindingly fucking obvious, which is no great feat to point out. I shouldn't be rewarded for this. But none of you should need it, and apparently some of you did. I apologize for this blatant insult to your fucking intelligence.

I am grateful for your apology, Whisper. However, I am far more grateful for your writing. Your texts and comments are what I look for, so I'd rather hear you insult my intelligence than for you to stop telling me how I could do better. Men might talk a lot of bullshit, but I do not mind older, wiser, more experienced men spitting bullshit at my face. In my mind, there is too much gold and bread and wine mixed with that spit. In my mind, I would be stupid if didn't listen to that.

It was not a stupid article. Remember that the flairs aren't pretty, ornamental things.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (5 children) | Copy

Indeed. If you think that the people who need this are worth helping, why insult them? If you don't, why write the article?

[–]TractorOfTheDoom10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy

are you here to learn, or get your tiny undeveloped balls tickled?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy

"You're fat, that's disgusting so get your ass to the gym" is one thing. That's constructive; it motivates one to do something useful.

"You're stupid if you need this" isn't motivating. It's just an insult.

[–]TractorOfTheDoom5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

you know what? you're probably right in that context. but he didn't say that. you're getting it all wrong.

and even he did, who gives a flying fuck? did you or did you not learn something from this? did you get your shit together thanks to that post? if the answer is yes, then fuck off and don't complain. don't even thank him. just do something useful with that bit of information.

i can't believe how big of a pussy the whole mankind has become. you get good advice, helpful and genuinely useful advice, and you complain because it hurt your fucking feelings. now why don't you also go cry in a corner, you fucking bitch?

if you don't want to be insulted, do not attract insults. take the advice like a man and maybe say thank you too. there is no such thing as bad criticism and you fucking know it.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

you know what? you're probably right in that context. but he didn't say that. you're getting it all wrong.

He said "Look, I realize some of you bros never had fathers, but Jesus fuck, how dumb can you be? (...) None of you should need it, and apparently some of you did. For the rest of you, I apologize for this blatant insult to your fucking intelligence." So yes, he did pretty much say "you're stupid if you need this."

Calling people fat is useful. I was obese, then got fatshamed and decided to stop being a pussy. Now some old friends barely recognize me anymore.

I recommend fatshaming landwhales. After all, you can fix being fat. If you convince someone that they're fat, and if they're not beyond hope, then they'll stop being fat. If they're beyond hope, fuck 'em. I'm willing to hurt the feelings of nine obese creatures if it means getting through to one of them.

However, you can't fix stupid. If you convince someone that they're dumb, then they can't do the "you know what, I am fat so I'm going to go to the gym." They'll be like "damn... maybe I am stupid. Shit." They'll be less likely and not more likely to better themselves.

To put it another way, I'm all for constructively hurting people to help them. Saying "you suck in fixable area x" is useful. I'm not for hurting people pointlessly, like saying "you suck in non-fixable area y". And this post, which has genuinely useful advice, would be equally useful without the "you're dumb if you need this" part.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well if you feel insulted, you're one of the hopefully few that needed the post.

[–]majorchamp2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe I am an exception, but I have averaged 5-6 hours of sleep for over 8 years, been lifting 4-5. I've done a full recomp and look good. Hell I don't even eat till 1pm everyday, and followed LeanGains a while back doing intermittent fasting. Could more sleep provide me better results? maybe. But to suggest you will get nowhere is an exaggeration. The body adapts, and in my case hitting 8+ hours on a weekend sometimes leaves me feeling like shit tbh.

[–]GunsGermsAndSteel4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't sleep enough, yet I don't have (much of a) gut, I'm making steady gains in the gym, I am alert and I can concentrate.

I've always been a freak when it comes to sleep. I just don't need/want as much of it as many people do.

That being said, my gym gains would probably be a lot better if I got another hour or two of sleep a night. But to say I "might as well not lift" because I don't rest enough is simply not true.

[–]sourpuss_ashkenazi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've got delayed sleep phase disorder, where I can NEVER fall asleep before half 3 am. It's been like this since I was a small kid. I can wake up at 6 am and I still wont fall asleep until the next 3 am. So For normal life I have to get up at 7 and that's my lot.

[–]Auphor_Phaksache4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy

I hate that this is a fact. 6'2 boxer but also a combat vet. Insomnia and nightmares are literally killing me. If I could go to sleep I know my performance in the ring would skyrocket.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy

combat vet. Insomnia and nightmares are literally killing me.

  • Get your blood cortisol levels checked. When (not if) you learn that they are high, 50mg of DHEA in the morning (must be in the morning) will help drive them down.

  • Hang out with other combat vets who have some idea what you're going through.

  • Cry if you can. We usually give the opposite advice, but post-combat stress is serious shit, and you need to vent. Just don't let bitches see you do it, because they think it's weak. Their idea of a bad day is denting their fender in the parking lot and spilling a latte on their new shoes. They have no fucking idea, and it cannot be explained to them.

  • Adopt a puppy or kitten. Studies have shown this helps a lot.

  • Try to focus on and accept what's around you. Many combat vets come back with the feeling that a veil has been torn off reality, and they've seen what the universe was really like outside a nice safe bubble inhabited by trivial people. That's not quite true. Whatever you went through was reality, but so are nice safe suburban neighborhoods. Not everywhere is a shithole full of ragheads trying to kill you.

Good luck out there.

[–]foldpak1111 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

They will soon once they break into combat roles. Femilitary at your service.

[–]cpnurrenberg1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I have ptsd as well; my two pence:

  1. No opinion/comment.
  2. YES. Even just having someone that you can talk to about your issues, what you went through, and what you carry now can be a massive help.
  3. "They have no fucking idea, and it cannot be explained to them." is a strong argument for #2 as well.
  4. Yes, although I personally don't trust myself to take care of a pet ATM.
  5. This (or something very similar) is called mindfulness and I honestly think it's a technique that everyone should learn. It's the best way I found to combat the dissociation/derealization, other than SH, which is, obviously, NOT recommended.

Whatever you went through was reality, but so are nice safe suburban neighborhoods. Not everywhere is a shithole full of ragheads trying to kill you.

As true as this is, simply understanding this fact doesn't fix the issues at hand. Do what you can to help yourself but understand when you need help.

[–]525760780 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Check out ibogaine. See my reply to the other PTSD guy for details.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Look into getting a puppy. Or adopt a retired dog like a retired racing greyhound or something. They are called man's best friend for a reason. A friend of mine loves his dog wholeheartedly. When he gets stressed or has nightmares from serving inAfghanistan, his dog really helps him and comforts him. They can sense if you're stressed.

[–]Barmacist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Talk to your doctor about Prazosin. It's traditionally a blood pressure med but there is good evidence that it helps with chronic nightmares related to PTSD. I've seen a few patients try it and for some it completely stopped the nightmares. Source: I'm a Pharmacist

[–]525760780 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Seriously man, you don't have to live like that. Check out ibogaine. It's a miracle cure for PTSD. Changed my life. You have to travel to Canada or Mexico, but it's the greatest investment you'll ever make in your own mental health. Ibogaine is so powerful that it's the only known substance that can break heroin addiction. There are minor risks if you have certain heart conditions, but as long as your blood pressure is being monitored, you'll be fine.

[–]Transmigratory2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Work out time seems to be the problem a lot of the time. No need to do a 2 hour work out.

If you design your own workout plan and it takes more than an hour or 1hr 30mins... you're a noob. Read a book and use a plan like a 5x5 or 3x5, or some other beginner routine. That'll get you out of the gym around an hour or so. That means you'll be able to sleep more for dem gainz.

When you're cycling and you find that a work out plan will take a lot of hours... break it up and train more frequently during the week.

I remember Scott Herman mentioning Muscle Genes, perhaps it is worth getting that to see how you can max gains relative to your genetic make up. While factoring in your other commitments.

Oh and work out partners. Try to get someone to do the same routine if you must have a work out partner. Keep it to one person max, two depending on how good they are.

This, however is for the 9 to 5ers. If you work more, than you'll need to decide to avoid the gym or live with less hours sleep. Or perhaps use your weekends.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Aren't the 5x5 and such those workouts that caused T-rex bodies? Huge legs and smaller upper bodies?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

5X5 does have a fair bit of leg work, but does not skimp on the upper body.

It goes like this

A: Squat, Bench, row's B: Squat, overhead press, deadlift

and rotate. a pretty good overall workout.

[–]MortalSisyphus 13 points13 points [recovered] | Copy

Nah, I'm pretty sure we all just need to masturbate less. /s

[–]Enjoyitbeforeitsover6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy

Wouldn't that be key to increasing testosterone?

[–]tb876703 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

People have to judge their sleep cycles for themselves to a degree. As a teen I required 10 hours of sleep on the dot and woke up feeling good. As an adult I don't wake up good no matter what anymore whether I sleep 6 or 12 hours, but I function best with 7 or 8 hours of sleep. Sometimes my body wants 9 though especially if I was shorted a few hours of sleep during the week. Might take a few months to judge what works best for you, might just take a week or two. This is an important thing to do no matter what, exercising or not (but you should exercise) because it affects your body so much.

As for your attitude Whisper on this being a stupid article, no it isn't. So many people leave our school system unable to write an essay or unable to do basic Algebra. Many young men are not taught what needs to be taught anymore. If you assume everyone gets a basic package of info when they in fact don't then they are simply not getting the basic help that is most needed to build a foundation on. Not only that, while wrangling with the truths of the Red Pill sometimes guys keep slipping back to blue. I had a minor slip just last night. Sometimes during those slips it's best for me to just go through the basics and work your mind through all the stuff we 'should' know like a checklist. Sleep-Check. Exercise-Check. Meditation-Check. Basic stuff like this helps in different ways for different people.

[–]aewiggin2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah, I've recently realized how important sleep is, and from experimenting I've concluded that I need at least 9 hours to feel good.

The problem is that I need to be super organised to make this happen. If I want to go to the gym before uni I need to wake up at about 0500, which means I need to go to sleep around 1930-2000.

I haven't got yet at the point where this is consistently possible, but I'm working on it.

[–]AnAbsoluteSith2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Jesus how do you survive? Like you, I wake up at 5am to head out to gym before classes. However, going to sleep at 10pm cuts out so much of my time needed for studying/doing assignments. It's a struggle for us guys to make those school and gym gains.

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Do a 2 or 3-day full body split and stick to it. Check out Starting Strength. Use your free days to do assignments in the morning or evening.

[–]BannedBandit5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

I actually no idiots that go to the gym twice a day, 6 days a week, and go to bed at 12 so they can wake up at 5 to "hit the gym early bro".

Meanwhile I have three 45 minute sessions a day and lift far more than them.

Don't let being a manlet trick you into thinking you need to do this.

[–]tirpt10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy

You probably meant 3 45min sessions a week.

[–]foldpak11111 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

No he really meant that two-a-days are for idiots, but THREE-a-days are the stuff champs are made of. True story, read it in the annual this morning.

[–]okkyle3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

/u/Whisper, you brilliant bastard, you. I was honestly just about to write a small FR on this very topic.

I found TRP about a year ago and finally got into a consistent 5x5 lifting routine about 5 months ago. Diet has never been something I've had a problem with, I've always eaten very clean which has kept me trim over the years.

Predictably, I've had great results since I started hitting the gym. I won't go into detail on my progress, but I'll just say that there's been a clear difference in my physique. My biceps were just starting to stretch out my shirt sleeves, a lot more mass on my shoulders/traps area.

Well, for the last week I've been under huge pressure finishing a project at work, and I've had to stay up through the night, to 5am a couple times, averaging about 4 hours of sleep per night.

So what's happened to my gains after one week of moderate sleep deprivation? Seriously I've shrank down about 75%, no joke. My arms look lanky again, like they did pre-lifting. Shoulders and traps are almost gone. Without my chest and legs, which were always my strong areas anyway, you could basically look at me and not even know that I lift. Again, I want to emphasize that all this atrophy happened in one week.

In my experience, lack of sleep is the #1 gains destroyer, and it's not even close. Dudes will obsessively count their macros and avoid "too much" cardio like the plague, but yet they don't understand the absolutely crucial importance of proper sleep in gaining muscle.

[–]CyberninjaZen1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is difinitely true. I used to have sleeping problems and never made any gains even thoigh I worked out harder than lots of ppl I know. Now I am way bigger than before even though I lift less. I just sleep more now.

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

What about us that cant fit a good sleep schedule in atm?

Ive still gotten a large amount of results sleeping less than 7 hrs a night for almost 6 months.

My apprenticeship requirea night school which includes 3 hrs of welding straight. Plus home work and an hr ride home. Then i have to prepare for work at 5 am. I squeeze in the gym on my non school days.

[–]hawaiianko1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

During weekdays I sleep for 3-7 hours s day and weekends about 12-14.im making some pretty good gains still

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah this is true and I'm fucking up. I really should sleep more

[–]DS-Slash1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I knew that that Dragonball picture was coming. No childrens cartoon though haha

[–]FaustoRMD1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Why is this shitty post sticked?

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Shitty? I went from high school SMV7 to 22 year old depressed omega by hamstring why I don't need this advice. Need stuff like this sometimes to slap sense into you.

[–]rpscrote1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

My girl gets mad at me when I pass her up for my daily 8 to 9 hours, no exceptions. The gain train dont stop

[–]dgfsf1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

What? I find it hard to sleep due to noise and general insomnia, as well as having to get up early. It's not as easy as you make it out to be.

[–]Yrenq3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Then there's the fact that, in virtually every-fucking-thing you do, you do it better if you are well rested. I have a line in my personal code to this effect.

[–]MGTOW_player2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Curious, has anyone out there taken or known anyone who has taken notorious steroids, like tren, that cause sleep deprevation because they had such a busy schedule anyway?

I've spoken with guys on tren/test cycles who complain about lack of sleep but apparently have tons of energy. They weren't the types to work 12-16 hour days but figured it may be worth it for a really hard working guy who still wants to build insane strength and muscle.

Those guys were getting huge gains on 3-6 hours of sleep a night for months.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I give ye all my chart.

3-5 hours: significantly damaged mental abilities, no energy or motivation, body feels weak.

6-8 hours: I feel lots of energy and motivation, as well as concentration. Body feels normal and strong.

More then 8 hours: I feel rested, but without energy or motivation, I'm lazy ass. Body feels weak.

I sleep between 6 and 8 hours and I make gains be it in the gym or school.

[–]ThreeEyez1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is very true. My sleep has been so fucked lately and it's been making me feel like shit. The last few days I've been going to sleep at 11 and 12, and it's the best I've felt in a while. Back pain is starting to go away as well. Sleep is NOT a luxury.

[–]Polaris3821 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Well Ronnie Coleman was averaging 5-6 hours a night.

[–]Magnum0077 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ronnie Coleman also had some help from HGH/Test/hormones...

[–]laere3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

pretty sure that dude was made of steroids

[–]DannyDemotta-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you take dat dere cell tech, you can get away with less sleep.

The rest of us need to sleep.

[–]Mifune_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's 3:30 am and i looked down and saw what you meant. I also have been working out for the past month. Thanks OP, I thought about gilding this, but I'm a poor bastard. Genuinely heartfelt thanks. Off to bed!

[–]StupidStrong0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I applaud the sentiment, however to maintain focus I suggest that we leave specific advice to more topical forums when possible, such as Fitness, weightroom, malefashionadvice, seduction, etc. Otherwise TRP risks being reduced to the one-stop amateur hour of all male-related content, flooded with entry-level posts from sidebars elsewhere.

[–]borsodas[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I am a successful freelancer and can sleep as much as I want I exercise regularly and eat healthy, but I feel I sleep too much between 9-11 hours a night. It makes me feel achy and groggy and less productive I prefer to keep it to 8 hours. Also those are hours that I can not be drinking water so I wake up dehydrated. From someone who sleeps well and as much as they want whenever they want I see a lot of down sides.

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Get 7hr 30. Set your clock for 8. 5 whole cycles. Sounds like 6 is too many for you.


[–]skinnysandvs0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

What about high school students who have no time to sleep 8-10 hours a night? Is it worth lifting then? Usually I wake up at 6:30 but I'm lucky if I get off work, get all my homework done and am in bed by 11-12 on a good day

[–]boredguy930 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

high school students who have no time

Hahaha you have to be joking right? Wait till your in the real world kid then you'll know what having no time is like.

[–]skinnysandvs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You obviously haven't been in high school recently, nor do you know anyone in high school, because you would know that trying to balance a job, school, sports, working out and a social life limits your free time to virtually 0.

I came looking for advice and if you're going to attempt to patronize me simply because I'm a student you just shouldn't have replied, "Mr. Red Pill Man"

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you get 6+hrs sleep you have no excuse not to lift. Ideally get 7.5/9 though.

How many hours do you work your job? When do you get up? When's your average bedtime? Do you really need to see your friends every day?

[–]bobbybouchier0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I can't afford to sleep much. I work 30-35 hours a week and am a full time student. I probably average 5-6 hours a night, so I know that I should sleep more but the only option is to stop working out entirely which I will not do.

[–]foldpak1112 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Deprivation is fine to get your finances straight. You want to get it taken care of before your late 20's, though.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]4delicioustreats1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Depends where your value needs the most improving. If you can't feed yourself with one job, then you're worthless for the purposes of reproduction. Consider spending more time upgrading your hourly wage, vs working for a low one.

If youre making tonnes of money and are fat, cut a job and get fit.

Basically improve your weakest area.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]4delicioustreats4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I envy those with a 12" dick. I envy silver spoon kids who will inherit billions.

Too bad, mine will all come from hard work and right living.

[–]Subcommandante_Khan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Cut out coffee if you have to. Shit knocks me for a loop. It's a shame.

[–]1Snivellious0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This really shouldn't have been necessary or relevant, but that's not your fault. It's the fault of the motherfuckers who aren't sleeping and are bitching about how tired they feel.

Thanks for the moment of clarity (with some actual fucking science) for those who need it.

[–]AmazingAndy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

stressed out skinnyfat crew reporting in. no idea what my T level is.

[–]Stormhammer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

... Jesus christ.

Here I am at 12:45AM watching HGTV.... sigh. I do need to get into a better sleep pattern.

[–]kirbymaster74910 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well, I've learned something today. Time to rearrange my day again.

[–]1RPAlternate420 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I'd like to compund this with: do an appropriate volume of weight work.

I was doing 5/3/1 with 5-06 4x12 accessory sets... I was getting 6-7 hours of sleep (though I couldn't sleep more) I was simultaneously hungry and had no appetite, but most importantly, my body stopped responding to the workouts... it refused to get stronger.

I ignored the signs of overtraining and I started getting skipped-beat palpitations earlier this week. Final doc consultation comes this week following my 24 hour Holter monitoring. It's been 6 days and I still have skipped beats.

Overtraining will actually prevent normal sleeping. If you are hitting the gym hard and still can't sleep, consider this article:


And this one:


[–]oso960 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

[–]1RPAlternate421 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Trust me, I am. No rest days, 4 weight days, 2 BJJ days, little sleep. I have all the symptoms and they have been mounting for weeks. The heart thing was simply cherry on the shit sundae.

If I could sleep more it may not have been an issue.

[–]Predatorftfw0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Sleep ~10 hours a day.

I should probably cut back.

[–]Havikz0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What do you do if you sleep TOO much? I usually sleep 10 hours a day and some days it can push 13 hours for no reason at all.

[–]pantsoffire0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. Will get back off the late night sessions and back on sleep meds.

[–]RedPillScare0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

There's a lot of good information on sleep, sleep deprivation, and the trade-offs between them in these two podcasts:



There's a rabbit hole of research here, which may convince you to get some damn sleep.

[–]RichieFinn0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I go to sleep and constantly wake, this happens anywhere between 3 and 7 or 8 times a night. Anyone got any tips on this?

Even if ive worked from 9-5 then played a soccer game for an hour i still struggle to sleep properly

[–]ChadThundercockII0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I now have some belly fat on what used to be ripped abs from 3 years of boxing. My dick is working great though. I tend to agree on the fact that the lack of sleep and overeating did me on it.

[–]monsunland0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I never lift and I am in way better shape than when I did. I run now (barefoot).

[–]Thizzlebot0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This was a stupid article, and I shouldn't be putting my standard "Bitcoin-instead-of-more-Reddit-Gold"

It's funny how so many posts want to make money of chumps that are here to learn. Whatever though.

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

But Whisper, what if one has insomnia?

edit: Ignore. Some great advice.

[–]NikkyMontana0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I remember arnold schwarzenegger saying you should only sleep 6 hours

[–]2awalt_cupcake0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Sleep more? Finally a TRP command I can win at.

Fuck your n counts I bet I can sleep more than you!

[–]1RXRob0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

There's a reason Tracey Emin made a video of David Beckham's post training nap. You're watching far more than a sleeping man

[–]like_a_ghost0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Upvote for good points and the DBZ reference. Goku is straight alpha

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Wanted to add that if you drink you might as well not lift either. Recent studies have proven alcohol to inhibit protein synthesis, the muscle building process after exercise, by 80-100%



Also, EAT. If your one of those dudes who goes to the gym everyday and complain that you don't grow or get stronger and you've been benching 135 exclusively for the past year and blaming it on genetics, no, its because your not eating enough, your not sleeping, or you drink too much. In the case of the average guy, most likely all 3.

And don't fall in to the bro-science a lot of people will try to spew at you, as apparently there's still a lot of bros here who don't want to believe that calories in vs calories out = weight.

[–]Interversity8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

Recent studies have proven alcohol to inhibit protein synthesis, the muscle building process after exercise, by 80-100%

Neither link says this.

The first link:

researchers found that alcohol significantly reduced protein synthesis by 24% and 37% in the alcohol-protein and alcohol-carbohydrate treatments respectively, compared to the protein treatment


Something to note: the authors looked at the effects of binge drinking -- not moderate drinking -- on protein synthesis. Moderate alcohol intake likely wouldn't result in such a marked reduction, though that remains to be studied.

I don't know where you got 80-100% from, and even the above numbers are based on people who were getting absolutely hammered after exercising. You make it sound like even just moderate social drinking on the weekends or whatever is hugely detrimental.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It was a bodybuilding.com article I read that had the 80-100% numbers but I of course can't find it now. But in the context of those 2 specific articles, yes, your correct. But think about how much 24-37% actually is. Thats a quarter to over a third of your workout. To anyone serious about bodybuilding, thats a ton.

[–]kinklianekoff2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

protein synthesis rate at any given moment is kind of like test levels at any given moment. They don't correlate with long term gains. Alcohols negative impact on lifting gains is overblown. Binge drinking 1 hour after workout may not be the smartest, especially because you may fuck up your diet, but a good, planned night out with meals before and after won't hurt your gains much at all.

[–]laere3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I quit alcohol for the exact reason. To help make gains, and because it was fucking killing my wallet anyways.

42 days sober today, and never looking back. 1 way ticket on the gains train to leaving humanity behind baby.

[–]robzonpl 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

Maybe it's obvious, but it's also a great reminder to us all.

Make sure you get enough sleep guys. Well worth it.

Thanks for posting! /u/ChangeTip

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

inb4 "but i have insomnia it's a real medical condition i didn't do it to myself!"

oops, too late.

[–]gregguitarist-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

My job is 4:30-midnight and school is 7 to 2, that's up at 6, home at 2:30 work at 4 and home around 12:30, how the fuck do I get enough sleep in those hours?

[–]Money_Bags971 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Find a new job or get better hours

[–]killsyou1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Slow clap is definitely deserved here.

[–]StarDestinyGuy-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

And your dick doesn't work because your testosterone is low and your cortisol is high and your neurotransmitters are fucked up.

More sleep will actually improve my dick functionality? Easier to get hats, stay hard, get hard again sooner after cumming?

[–]bama79rolltide-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

I am 36 years old, and I have some advice for every man in the world. Sleep is very important. Let me suggest a mattress, that can ship anywhere. I do not work for this company, but the mattress has done wonders for my back. Very affordable.


[–]MetalliMunk-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

DragonBall Z gave me the layout of life:

Eat hard. Train Hard. Sleep Hard. Fight Hard.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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