On confidence vs asshole and on nice guys.

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April 12, 2013

I posted this as a reply in this thread but I wanted to expand on this a bit.

On Nice Guys

A common trope I continuously hear is that nice guys aren't really nice, or that they pretend to be nice to score. Or that their niceness is contrived. This attempts to reframe the argument that nice-guys aren't really nice therefore rejecting them is rational, female egos be preserved.

Niceness need not be contrived to fail. I was a genuinely nice guy, I just did stuff for everybody that asked. I figured, people like nice. I like to be liked. Therefore I'll be nice.

And I let people take advantage of me. But this wasn't contrived niceness. It was naivety. I was taught from an early age, share, be nice, respect people and they'll respect you. What really happened was nobody respected me and everybody took advantage of me.

And I think that's why I dislike the recent reframe of the nice-guy problem. They're not typically disingenuous. They're simply misinformed. They can be as genuinely nice as anybody can be.

On Confidence/Assholes

I keep seeing here on the red pill this common trope. "You don't have to be an asshole, just confident..."

So the argument is that you don't have to be an asshole to be confident. I disagree. Part of having good game (for men) is conveying (not explicitly) that you have options. The only way to do that is to send signals that you have options. These signals must act counter to what would be expected from somebody following the "rules" of our society. In other words, in order to convey value implicitly, I must appear to be unintentionally breaking societal rules. To do this, I must make offenses, albeit small enough ones to maintain attraction.

Some examples:

  • You text me, sometimes I don't text back.

  • I cancel dates 1/3 of the time.

  • I make plans with multiple people and only go to the one that I'm most interested in that day.

  • I won't buy you a birthday gift.

  • I won't buy you drinks.

  • You'll try to get me to open up, and I'm not going to.

These are all not just confidence traits, but decidedly anti-social traits that we learn from youth are what "assholes" do.

And it drives women wild.

Enlightened women mention they like the combo of asshole and gentleman. I agree that's the most attractive way to go about life for a man. But don't forget, to be both, you have to be an asshole at least some of the time.

It's not enough to be confident. You must convey your value by showing you have options, and you cannot do so explicitly.

Post Information
Title On confidence vs asshole and on nice guys.
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 53
Comments 37
Date 12 April 2013 03:17 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/3934
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1c7khz/on_confidence_vs_asshole_and_on_nice_guys/
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[–]TRP VanguardVZPurp37 points38 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't really have much to add at the moment since I'm on the run, but you're spot on. It's astounding that "nice guy" has become a pejorative. I clearly think "nice guys" are the way they are because of how society raises most boys (completely feminized).

You end up with the brunt of guys being nice, and I think genuinely. No real sinister deception. Just a flawed strategy that sees like it's a good thing.

Instead they ought to have those confident asshole attributes and pursue women aggressively. Don't be afraid to get rejected Be a man, let those thoughts from your dick and testes surging with testosterone be your guide. You don't want to be nice to her, YOU WANT TO FUCK HER. So quit messing around. Act like a man. Be a man. Make a move.

Anyone shaming nice guys, especially women and feminists, really miss the mark because they engender the environment for nice guy creation, and continue to feed them bullshit about being yourself and finding the right girl, while that said girl gets plowed by some other guy. Let's be real. Women are talking, but nothing worth listening is coming out.

So the icing on the cake is now they're shaming all the nice guys. Way to make heads spin.

[–] points points | Copy

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[–]slfnflctd6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy

Stop giving until you have the capacity to give.

Bingo. There's a lot of substance to that statement.

[–]1favours_of_the_moon6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy

Very true. You have to be in a place of abundance before you can give to others.

My view is that, you can be nice. Very nice. Even gentlemanly. BUT, then you do other things to show that you are not doing so because you are a pussy. It's not coming from a place of desperation.

So hold the door. Pay for dinner. Be cool. But let them know you're not a pushover. Just my own personal style I guess.

"A gentleman is someone who never insults another person, unintentionally."

[–]IntrovertSuccess1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

What are the things that you do that show you aren't coming from a needy place?

I can hardly afford to be nice in any way since I get punished for it.

[–]1favours_of_the_moon2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

You can be courteous, without being a pushover.

Don't take any of her shit. Stand your ground. Be a little cocky. Taunt her a little bit. Challenge her. Disagree with her on a topic. lol

[–]IntrovertSuccess0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah... I guess I'm already like that.

[–]1favours_of_the_moon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Make her suck your dick.

[–]1favours_of_the_moon1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

On occasion, you might even go so far as to disobey her.

[–]Are_You_A_Real_Man7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

These days, when a woman calls me an asshole, I know that I'm working my game correctly.

[–]Ethan471 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

how do you respond? I just smile and say "yes". Or "I warned you".

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

I don't see anything on that list as 'asshole'-ish. Is that what it's come to? Any chick that expects that much attentiveness is an entitled princess.

I consider being an 'asshole' like cussing her out for no reason, slapping dinner off the table, or dropping her off in a bad neighborhood. The former warrant being a genuine 'asshole'.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Any chick that expects that much attentiveness is an entitled princess.

It seems they are more common than you think.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I know that's the majority even, but just because something is commonplace doesn't mean standards and definitions should be redefined. It just doesn't warrant the "asshole" title to me.

[–]Ethan477 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

I like this. Tips like this are something I need to re-visit to make sure I don't slip back into beta-patterns. Other things I try to do. Be the first to break away during making out. Have a plan for the night and make the decisions about what is happening when. If she doesn't want sex, I pull away and start doing something productive (email, studying). Call them on bullshit/shit tests.

Anyone else? Things i'm bad at - canceling. I'm sure I need work in other areas as well.

[–]TRP Vanguardtheubercuber1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Me too. I think as RPS does it would make it easier.

Schedule multiple dates then cancel all but your favourite.

As soon as I can get two dates at the same time I'm definitely trying this out.

[–]thecajunone5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

Really glad you posted this. I've been thinking about it a lot. A little bit of ass hole goes a long way. Seriously, women eat that shit up and will stay with a man who treats them like shit over a guy who may even be confident but nice. Why? Are all women masochists?.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy

It signals an abundance mentality. If I can afford to be an asshole, then I don't really care if she stays or goes. If that's my mentality, I must have options. If I have options, other girls must want me. If other girls want me, I must have something women want. Circular reasoning? Sure. Doesn't matter, preselection works.

[–]fokm2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is one of the best posts I've read here in a while. Awesome knowledge.

Doesn't part of you think it sucks that you just can't be "nice" and have it work out? By "nice" I guess I mean "genuine".

[–]thecajunone1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Oh no doubt, I agree with all that and understand it but sometimes I wonder if there is more to it than that.

[–]1favours_of_the_moon2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I always offer to pay or to buy drinks. But I'm still an asshole in my own way. LOL.

I just think there is a place for gallantry. The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus.

Hold the door, offer to drive, be complimentary. But you can STILL hit that emotional button!

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[–]Modredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

Because you can't just have a busy life. You have to convey that you're so busy you don't even notice you've double booked. It's nothing to you.

Do you think a rich person bends over to pick up a dime he dropped?

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[–]Modredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Well ultimately, I'd hope scheduling multiple dates and picking your favorite would mean you are actually busy.

But you know what they say, gotta fake it till you make it. Preselection can work for you if you got it, and against if you if you don't.

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[–]Modredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Ask yourself this: How do you make it if the requirement for making it is having already made it?

If you appear as though you're not already successful with women, women sniff it out and will lose interest because of it.

[–]Alekazam2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good post. I agree with pretty much everything you say, although the examples you mention I wouldn't consider being an 'asshole'. For me being an asshole is deliberately doing something malicious. You can be 'nice' without taking any shit.

[–]RedHonest2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

My take: If you're a nice guy, then being an asshole will be perceived as confidence.

The thing about being a nice guy, is that it's going to be really hard to change your personality. There's no way around it, you're going to have to experiment with being an asshole. Just make sure you understand the difference between being a caring versus an uncaring asshole. Basically, alpha assholery doesn't actually have an agenda, other than boredom or some sort of dominance play. Beta assholery, on the other hand, is trying to get back at someone, bitching out. Alpha is active; beta is reactive.

As a reformed nice guy myself, I learned how far you can take it with women. I spent my teenage years transforming myself into the feminist ideal, and treated women with respect and equality, only to learn that this is exactly the kind of respect that they find uncomfortable and offputing. Women generally are annoyed by being treated with too high respect.

Let me say it this way: There is comedy and tragedy involved when social morality and the rewards and punishments of nature drive in separate directions, and between them is tied you or I or any other chump on this earth. So the trend for men will be like this, the greater a hold that society has on us, the more we will be feminists, chumps, and white knights; and invariably later, and it is only a question of how long later, man will gradually learn by nature to become more instinctive, more natural. I was lucky to learn about the red pill in my late twenties, I would have hated to have woke up in my fifty's.

[–]oreopimp2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I keep seeing here on the red pill this common trope. "You don't have to be an asshole, just confident..."

You're right you don't have to be an asshole, nor should you. People will just think you're an asshole sometimes because you are not following THEIR program, you are following YOUR program. You have strong boundaries, you don't put up w drama, you WANT the girl in front of you BUT YOU DONT NEED HER. You want to fuck her but you will never let her fuck you over. You understand human nature, you understand everyone follows this nature and that each person only really varys by degrees based on her experiences and life but that she can and will do the things that all other girls do if you let her. She can be special to you, but if she is off to you YOU ARE OFF TO HER. You don't give to expect. You give cause you fucking want to. You don't give her a gift, or be her nice friend expecting to get sex from it or expecting to get anything from it because you know already you are going to fuck this girl tonight you just wanted to give her something nice but you're never nice to get into her pants cause you already own the pants she is wearing and you'll take them off her when you damn well please. You know even if she fights you she wants you to lead. You know that deep down she never wants you to chase her. You know even if she controls all the other guys in her life she is looking for the guy that will make her drop that control and do whatever he wants. That she doesnt want control. YOu know when she says she doesn't like something she is just waiting for you to show her what you like and then she will love everything you like, even if she fights you at first. She wants to know you will leave her if she fucks w you too much or even at all, she wants to know you can and will drop her even if you love her and go give your love and cock elsewhere. She wants to fight to give you reasons to love her, she wants to convince you she is worthy of your love and your sex and your fucking. She wants to feel the wall of your being never breaking for her but for her to break against you.

[–]IntrovertSuccess1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is the one thing I've always struggled with. Like the OP, I've seen with my own eyes that 'just being confident' only gets you so far... a bit of the dark-triad really gets you heading in the right direction.

But it's always been hard for me to take on those behaviours. It's the last piece of my 'game' that I still need to fake by mimicking specific behaviours.

So far I can fake it to an extent by having my mission being my number one focus and by spinning plates. But the little list that the OP wrote about is the kind of thing I use for myself otherwise I'll slip up.

Does anyone else have some similar tips that they've used to good effect? Like I said I'm fairly successful but could do even better if I could harness some dark-triad behaviours.

[–]JamesRyder1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

There's being needlessly cruel and there's also being needlessly nice. The trick is to find a balance.

[–]ImNickJames 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

Sorry, I agree with a lot of redpill but this is pretty bullshit. Yes, it's a tactic that may work but really, doing a lot of that stuff does make you an asshole. I do none of those things and have plenty of high quality women tripping over themselves to be with me.

I'll let you in on a secret - you CAN be both nice and confident. It may be tough when you've been a nice guy all your life and are trying to break those habits, but there is a definite balance to be struck.

I know what I want - from my job, from my hobbies, from my friends, and from that blonde chick sitting at the bar when I walk in. And I convey that as directly as possible. And it often works out favorably. If it doesn't work out, no big deal - on to the next thing.

I can be asshole-ish in my responses to women (and I like your last point: 'you try to get me to open up and im not going to') but the rest of that stuff just makes you a legitimate asshole. You may win the game, but nobody will like playing it with you for long.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Well you do have to calibrate for your local market. If women are throwing themselves at you, you don't have to necessarily play on hard mode.

But realize if girls are throwing themselves at you, you will probably exhibit all the traits listed above.

Which demonstrates preselection.

Which is why I listed the traits above.

[–]ImNickJames 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

But I don't exhibit a lot of those traits... I'm comfortably busy but not so much so that I'm making multiple dates every night I go out and then canceling on half of them.

But yeah, I guess we're saying the same thing here (preselection is huge), we're just going about it with slightly different philosophies. I will admit, back when I was learning 'game' years ago I was a lot more of an asshole than I am now, and it worked to some extent.

My disagreement is painting asshole behavior as the end goal, when for me it was a stepping stone to the person I've become today.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you become too accessible, you lose your grip on hypergamy. If women don't think there's still some work to get you 100%, they're on to the next guy. Asshole behavior is a must at all parts of the game. You might not call these behaviors "asshole-ish" but if they aren't sufficient, you lose.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Being an asshole means offending someone. Having healthy borders also means offending someone. It's just a fact of life. If you assert yourself, you are going to eventually step on some toes and some entitled and irrational people are going to blame and shame you in order to control you. There's also a social price for taking risks. Sometimes those risks don't pan out. That's just facts of life.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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