Socrates said, “No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”

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February 28, 2017

To master your mind you must master your body. Everything in our body is interconnected. To ignore the physical compromises the integrity of the mental.

"There is more wisdom in your body than your deepest philosophy." –Friedrich Nietzsche.

First of all, to most people, the brain and mind are the same things. I’d like you to start to think about them as separate parts of your being.

Your mind is an experience and it is what makes us human. We experience external variables around us and internal variables such as thoughts. Our mind or consciousness is our experience of this awareness. In other words, who you are at your core, your deepest self or your ‘soul’.

Your brain is what all animals have, it is an organ which serves biological functions. The brain is located inside the skull, it is comprised of blood vessels, neurons, and synaptic pathways.

Furthermore, think of your brain and mind as having a complex relationship to each other and at the same time are very different.

The Significance Of Your Body

The relationship of the mind and body.

Our brain is part of our body. Chemicals that enter our body through food and movement contribute to changes in the brain and directly affect how it functions and how our mind perceives the changes.

Soft drinks, drugs, junk food all have an effect on dopamine and serotonin, chemicals responsible for feeling good. These are external substances which (at different extremities) change our state of mind when ‘under the influence’.

Your endorphins, adrenaline, and thyroid hormones are all affected by what we consume.

I won’t get too scientific, the point I want you to understand is that when all these hormones and chemicals in the brain are balanced, everything works better. Your brain, your body, your mind.

The Power Of Exercise

No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.

Exercise is a huge part of this equation. Moving makes us feel good and thus the act really does go beyond attaining a muscular physique, getting stronger and getting fitter. I invite you to foresee the potential that exercise can give you if you are lacking in this discipline.

This should excite you as the possibilities for your mind are on equal and or greater to changes to your mind.

I always believed that the mind was all you needed to actualize your potential as a human.

The fact that we are conscious and can think of the past, future, present and be aware of ourselves is what makes us ‘unique’ and special, right?

I was wrong.

The body is where your life begins. To fail to master and understand the function and movement of your body to its greatest extent raises the question of whether you can actualize the strength of your mind.

Over the last few years, I have come to understand that there is a pattern with those that lack energy and the glint in the eye.

Actualizing Your Human Potential

There are three fundamental keys to being whole and being happy.

  • Mind

  • Spirit

  • Body

Those who lack a whole and happy energy are usually out of shape. They never exercise, eat garbage food and put no effort into improving their physical state.

What usually happens is due to a lack of a fundamental key there is the missing piece of the puzzle that needs to be filled.

The missing puzzle piece needs to replace the dopamine that would exercise would provide. This results in abuse of cigarettes, sugar, video games, etc. Chances are there is an activity that you use to kill time, one that is soul-sucking and creates a state of mind in a man that revolves around feeling good right now.

Exercise does just the opposite of this and this is why it can have such a huge influence on people’s lives outside of improving their bodies.

If you really pay attention you see this phenomenon everywhere. When somebody commits them to physical discipline, change is usually seen elsewhere. The previously faded glint in their eyes starts to become a little less gray as they instill an inner confidence they were longing for.

Your body is like a masculine trinity, a temple if you will. Buddha has told us that our health is our greatest gift, your body is the very core and center of this and thus it should be taken seriously and respected.

To master your body doesn’t necessarily mean to become the world’s best athlete. Quite to the contrary, it is more about having a solid understanding of how your body works.

This process is one which must include the following stages.

  • Prioritize Your Health

Hitting the gym isn’t enough. Diet and lifestyle are so important in the process of mastering your body. Improving your health, your sleep and exercising all merge together as a part of the journey to mastery.

There are so many negative influences (bad food, phones) which can deter us from achieving an overall healthier life through sleeping more, eating healthier. It’s vital to make sure all these needs are met.

  • Physical Awareness

You must establish a strong connection between your body and mind.

Rather than using your body as a tool, try and see your body as a vessel that carries your mind. If you experience a disconnect from your mind and body try yoga.

Yoga is great, not only for flexibility and recovery but as a tool to better understand how your body moves.

There’s emotional intelligence, IQ but I believe there is a third type of intelligence, your level of body awareness. This is your ability to know when you are energetic, calm, physically fatigued and to what extent.

Meditate, practice disciplines like yoga and try to connect your mind and body through your breathing to raise increase intelligence.

  • Explore Nature

Nature is where we are meant to be.

I’m not telling you to become a nomad and live in the forest. I’m saying that a healthy dose of exposure to hiking, nature and escaping the noisy chaotic nature of our urban complexities is an incredible way to reestablish our innate connection with nature and mother earth.

Vitamin D is incredibly important to boost your mood and regulating your hormones.

A study actually showed that looking at a digital photo of nature (ironic I know) improves ones mood and energy, instantly.

  • Embrace Harsh Conditions

Welcome to the harsh nature of reality. Never leave your body in comfort, when you find yourself comfortable with the stresses you are placing on your body, understand this is because you are being weak.

Life in general will be difficult and hard.

Don’t complain, accept this and endure this harshness and utilize it as a tool of resilience to build integrity in your body and character. If it’s cold outside, endure the cold, overcome your weakness that your body tells you to avoid (within reason) and cultivate a body that is able to be exposed to harsh conditions.

I hope you have begun to see how the physical is very connected to the mind. If you can endure the physical harshness life throws at you, the mental becomes a piece of cake.

  • Push Your Body To Its Limit

Push yourself and progress. Never be content with where your body strength and conditioning is, because that moment is when you fail. Strive to conquer any limits you may have preconceived and force yourself to exert yourself through whichever path of exercise you have chosen.

Add weight to the iron and be disciplined in this intent. Through this, you will experience one of the highs of being a man — experiencing your maximum physical exertion.

It is a mind state that I personally feel is euphoric and few are fortunate enough to experience.

It is in these brief moments where everything is chaotic that everything feels right. In retrospect, my personal strength victories taught me that these moments are some of the few where you are able to feel truly invigorated with life.

Only those who exert their physical self to their potential understand this. Be one of the few.


Post Information
Title Socrates said, “No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”
Upvotes 723
Comments 62
Date 28 February 2017 08:00 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
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[–]showerthoughtsgenius80 points81 points  (9 children) | Copy

How much did Socrates bench?

[–]billsmashole44 points45 points  (1 child) | Copy

He got big head veins from heavy thinking

[–]PissedPajamas9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

He worked out at the library

[–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana25 points26 points  (0 children) | Copy

Beware the barrenness of an empty bench - Socrates

[–]p3n1x8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

He was an Ex-Stonemason, Ex-Athenian military (per the Symposium was a beast in battle) and died at the age of 71 because he was poisoned, not because he was old.

I'm sure he could throw a few plates.

[–]mummersfarce_is_done6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't know about him. But his student Platon was a very broad shouldered, muscular guy.

[–]BobbyPeru4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

3 plates, but he did sets of 15

[–]LordThunderbolt3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Lifting is about moving the idea of heavy weights through space and time in repetitions and sets" - Socrates

[–]Newreddawn2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

He probably wrestled all the time, so maybe more than you'd think. Very common pastime for men of higher station to wrestle in their spare time in that era.

[–]ljubebanjeglav11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

And you know what the nickname Plato means? Because it's a nickname in case you didn't know. It means "guy with (really) wide shoulders". His real name was Aristocles. And he was also tall and jacked as hell.

[–]FractalFactorial19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy

Great saying. I have no idea whether this kind of thing is really true since its going on 2400 years old, but its words to live by.

You only have one body and its only young once. Make use of what you have and see what your full physical capabilities are until they fade away. You may stay in shape while you age with use of TRT or Roids but they expensive and have their own risks.

[–]dudeguymanthesecond1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Chances are that unless you were a slave back then you probably had a lot more free time than the average working class schlub.

[–]Corruptdead8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy

Are you the guy who turned his life around after seeing this quote? I remember that story, it was pretty inspirational.

[–]hiaf3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I read this quote in my late teens, it was amazing; really got me going hard

[–]stonerninja930 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I decided to go back to the gym some 4 months ago after coming across that quote.

[–]rubenbrasil24 points25 points  (4 children) | Copy

This is so true. I liken it to saying that once you taste the cake, you dont wanna go back to eating bread. Once you are buff, it is near impossible to rationalize not being buff. The pros outweigh the cons of hard work.

Still, some people manage to become hasbeens from their former 22 year old stud college days. These guys typically werent legitimate studs, just sort of kinda buff (DYEL BRAH?!). The guys who actually get really buff, typically stay that way their whole life.

The guys who never get buff at all dont know what theyre missing out on. Its like trying to explain how wonderful it is to dominate a wild snatch and choke her to a bluepilled virgin incel. Sure he knows it is amazing, but he wont know the extent of it until he actually does it. Once he finally does, he will rationalize that puttting in the work into being an alpha is better than eating Doritos and wiping snot on his Xbox controller.

[–]FcknSafe14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

When you've been buff a while, it's actually hard work to not be buff (to an extent). Your body will recognise your muscular physique as it's 'set point'. The same way someone who's been fat for a lifetime is gonna struggle with weight issues.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

being really big (while not necessarily super tall, I'd say 5'9+ tho) is like creating a gravitational force where people just come to you like you're some sort of Viking from the past.

Addictive AF. Especially if you wear clean cut clothes to show off the legs/butt/shoulders. Just avoid the very douchey extra stretch tops which scream juicehead. I like my lose XXL t shirts, kinda means "I dont give a shit". However people know it's full of meat inside.

[–]LordThunderbolt2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're talking about curl bros/arms everyday guys lol

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy

You're a personal trainer right? Got any physique pics or lift numbers?

[–]avacadotreelmao9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy


I'm not 'jacked' by any means, I place a lot of emphasis on nutrition/health and my knowledge in training people, rather than my own performance (although it isn't bad).

But since you asked here.

[–]dudeguymanthesecond4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hey it's me, ur spinal erectors. Let's go deadlifting.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

Anything from the front? I'm not convinced that's you.

[–]Rhunta7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy

Why do you think that if you see his face, you will be able to see if he is that user.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Because he constantly posts his video channel from like 30 different accounts and it annoys the fuck out of me (so i know what he looks like).

[–]avacadotreelmao points points [recovered] | Copy

It's me, I'm not big just very lean.

[–]I_Need_More_Space_6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy

Honestly, its much easier to train with a purpose. Let's say you want to be a better rock climber... Or you want to be a better skier... Whatever goal that drives training makes training enjoyable, and you reach newer heights in reward. Vanity training is lame in my opinion. Train to become better at something, and training will fall in line easily. Cheers.

[–]p3n1x2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Vanity training is lame

This comes off salty and purple. How can being healthy equate to 'lame'? Even in the name of "vanity" you will be healthier than captain oneitis sitting around "thinking" about success. External rewards are subjective in perception, no need to judge which one provides a better payoff for others.

Excessive pride in any ability, lets say rock climbing, is still vain!

[–]I_Need_More_Space_-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

"External rewards are subjective in perception." Exactly. That's why I posted what I did. I want those who lack motivation for globo-gym goals to see that there is a different alternative. Training for other goals such as a mountain peak summit, climbing above 5.10a, or skiing black diamonds in the back country is the alternative to training in a gym with mirrors on every wall. That is all. I'm just shedding light on another path.

I used to be a globo-gym dude when I was young. Then I found other more inspiring sports that took me off of that path. Everyone needs an inspiring path besides benching or the mirror although outdoor athletes are pretty shredded. Its as if looking good is just a by-product of training for the outdoors. But, it's not the end goal.

[–]Miheegz1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You don't have to be training for something. Improving your physcial health and strength does not need an external reason. It is not "lame" to improve for the sake of improving your health and strength.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Powerlifting is best imo. You get the best of both worlds. You get jacked and strong as fuck. And look stellar too, without the obsession of trying to cut to unhealthy body fat levels.

[–]I_Need_More_Space_0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

People rarely fall to unhealthy body fat levels in America. You make it sound as if that is easy. It ain't.

Power lifting is great for strength but there isn't any hi intensity or low intensity cardio involved, so your heart muscles stay weak, and your circulatory system loses elasticity with age.

Our ancestors would not be able to survive without cardio and stamina to hunt game. So why would you want to deviate from nature and focus strictly on strength?

It makes no sense to look good on the outside when your O2 delivery system is a 4 cylinder. Doing 15 min. to 30 on the elliptical on easy mode is not real world cardio.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Well until I need to track down a gazelle for 6 hours in order to eat, I'ma keep lifting heavy and doin light cardio.

[–]I_Need_More_Space_0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Good for you. I'm gonna keep climbing mountains, skiing Tahoe, climbing in Yosemite, and getting highs you will never even imagine all while being fit for the real world. Cheers.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

lol dude just cuz I lift weights doesn't mean I exclude natural outdoor activities. I live in Utah and have always done some skiing/hiking/climbing.

[–]I_Need_More_Space_0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

So you ski strictly the resort, hike in city parks, and climb in a gym with plastic pieces. Good for you. Hahaha!

Y'all having a good winter? Tahoe is getting pounded with high ratio/ goose down POW lately! It's been EPIC. Gonna shred tomorrow as Squaw/Alpine was shut down due to wind and visibility today. Rest day!

You can't ski back country, hike multi-days, or climb 5 pitches for 1000 feet while being "Jacked" like all these "creatine shits" having "Bros" who say, "Hit the gym. Its the source of all my confidence even though I have a shitty warehouse job." Well, not in those words. But... LOL. I'm starting to have fun with this.

Don't take me too seriously if anyone is offended. Again, I'm just saying to not focus on a gym lit with fluorescent lighting and mirrors on every wall. I've seen those guys who stick a needle in their ass to get jacked for vanity go down the shitter. I went into Camping World (getting RV stuff for my rig) months back only to see a dude who thought he was the king of the gym back in the day only to see him wearing a blue polo while working the service counter with a huge fucking belly.

He just went to shit. And this is what I warn: People often get caught up in being the jacked guy of the gym, and they get tunnel vision in life. The gym becomes their safe place of superiority. Then age and years catch up. Then you end up a loser, fat, and working at camping world.

But if you train with purpose and for improving skills for outdoor hobbies (every year trying to improve), you can have a fruitful experience that translates to becoming a better person that then gives you real self esteem to be more successful. That is all. Cheers and piss off. Haha!

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Dude are you on amphetamines or something?

[–]I_Need_More_Space_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hahaha! Na! I just didn't get my powder fix today. Both resorts I have a pass to were pretty much closed (wind and vis). And the back country avalanche report showed considerable avalanche risk with size of avalanche ranging from large to very large and likely. So, I had excess energy today.

Anyway, tomorrow the winds die down. And it seems the tourists have largely left town. Thank God. So tomorrow should be a great POW day for the locals. Woohoo!

That reminds me. Time for bed. 0500 start tomorrow to get first chair at Squaw!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

This is all very true and well put, but despite what you say, it establishes that the mind and the body are not separate. You do mention that the brain is an indivisible part of the body, but the mind is nothing more than the activity of the brain (and other parts of the nervous system, including the gut, as shown by recent research). Perhaps this is a minor point, as the rest of what you said was spot on and doesn't contradict it, but I wanted to emphasize it because it's essential to understanding the importance of a healthy body to one's mental state.

Exercise and good diet have been shown repeatedly through scientific study to significantly impact cognition, mood, and nearly every other conceivable component of the "mind." And of course that makes sense, because the mind is merely the result of electrochemical brain activity, which is directly affected by physiological factors such as hormones, neurotransmitters, and other aspects of neurochemistry/neurophysiology.

In fact, the physical cause-and-effect nature of consciousness and "free will" itself has been proven again and again through decades of experiments (the most exciting coming more recently) suggesting that the brain indicates signs of having made a decision before the person to whom the brain belongs consciously realizes it. You read that right. Respected neuroscientific research is making it increasingly clear – with consistent, reproducible results – that a person's brain has already made a decision or formed a thought before that person realizes it, and the indications that it has done so appear as measurable, observable physical phenomena.

Here's a primer on this remarkable research and its implications:

All that is to say that your mind is your body – i.e. your mind is the direct product of your physiology. It naturally follows that maximizing bodily health will maximize mental performance and well-being, often to a far greater degree than attempts to improve the mind through more intangible approaches.

Feeling down in the dumps over a girl never contacting you again, or something someone said? Go for a run. Lift weights. Or maybe just go for a walk in the woods. Get off your ass and get your blood moving. The guaranteed result is that you will feel better about and have greater perspective on whatever it is that was bothering you, and the reason is 90-99% because you altered your physiological state. You caused your brain to release endorphins, perhaps opened alternate neural pathways, etc., and possibly without even realizing it you have "hacked" your thoughts into a better state.

This is of course true in long-term situations as well as short-term. Being fit and healthy, and having a good diet, give you the confidence, energy, and more specifically neurochemical balance and optimization to take on all of life's challenges much more effectively than if you had let your body go to shit.

I could go on and on, obviously, but you get the point. OP is spot on: get right with your body and you will be more likely to get right with your mind. Because the two are one and the same.

ETA: specifically relating to the OP's quote, I also want to point out that exercise – especially strenuous exercise – has been proven again and again to increase longevity and both physical and mental well being in elderly people. I recently read a new study on this, but unfortunately I have to go now and can't find it quickly. May link later if I find it.

[–]hiaf1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

It is true what you say about decisions being made before consciousness (unconscious thought to consciousness).

However, the separation of mind and brain is no different than that of the mind and body.

Neuroplasticity has the capability of changing the brain circuitry.

Adult plasticity--the brain's ability to be rewired not just in childhood, but throughout life, a trait only recently established by scientists.


This ability can change your impulsiveness due to your conscious mind overriding the brain's default reactions.

Example: By forcing yourself to eat better, your brain will change it's reward pathways due to you feeling good about eating better. The lack of dopamine being released when you eat shit food makes your receptors recalibrate and then healthy food becomes pleasurable.

Neuroplasticity has helped lots with people that can't abstain from their addictions. Where moderation is important. Unlike alcohol, food is essential and therefore abstaining is impossible.

Edit: I have no idea what this has to do with excercise but just building on the idea of mind-brain-body

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well of course human behavior, which stems from human willingness to engage in that behavior, can alter brain and body physiology. But that just begs the question of what electrochemical impulses and other physical dynamics in the brain were behind the idea and willingness to engage in the behavior in the first place.

For example, take a schizophrenic man. In a moment of clarity, he checks himself into a mental health facility and asks for medication. The doctors give him antipsychotics and he takes them, which in turn alter his brain chemistry enough to alleviate his symptoms of schizophrenia (for as long as he continues to take the drugs). One could say his mind has successfully intervened in his neurochemistry through the decision he made, much like a woman who decides to start meditating on a regular basis can alter her brain's activity as well.

But what if the schizophrenic man is too far gone ever to realize he needs medication in the first place? In such an instance, his brain chemistry has made him too detached from reality to even get the idea to take medication. The physical functions of his brain, as with anyone's brain, take precedence over his "mind" and his volition. And how could it be otherwise? Our thoughts, our ideas, and all other aspects of our minds are the direct manifestations of our brains' functions, which are themselves purely physical phenomena.

In other words, contrary to your linked article's thesis, there is no mind that exists as "an independent entity that can shape and control the functioning of the physical brain" free from what is neurochemically happening in the brain and other parts of the nervous system. Every idea, every impulse, every feeling, is a direct product of neurophysiology.

It's a comforting and tempting notion to think we are the ultimate ruers of our own thoughts and actions, but this is not the case. This literally cannot be the case.

Anyway, interesting discussion, even if it is tangential to the OP's main point.

[–]PissedPajamas1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

TL;DR eat nutritious food workout consistently do yoga and sleep a good amount. Gotcha.

[–]p3n1x0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, this was how the original message went. Then the Blue and Purple army started asking "why?".

If people could take simple TL;DR directions, we wouldn't need this sub.

[–]RedPillFreedom1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

What's some legit advice for someone that just fractured their foot? What exercises can, should be done. Then, best way to heal this as quick as possible to increase level of activity.

Edit: Thank You, I value the opinion of RP over Reddit that's why I'm here. I'll make sure I recover properly by putting no pressure on that foot. I'll focus on everything I can do thats upper body back etc. I have resistance bands from bodylastics we'll see how well they work out.

[–]guyinokc4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dude. You're asking here? You have all of reddit to utilize. First- let the foot heel. If you don't know the importance of proper healing and recovery , it's time to start. Second, what kind of exercises do you think you can do? Anything that doesn't stress your foot. Pushups and pullups are all you really need. Do push-ups on your knees to avoid foot strain. Wear a weighted back pack to increase load.

[–]helgisson1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Work your upper body as much as you can with lifts that don't require standing up. But prioritize healing your foot, and don't try to rush it. It will be 10x worse if you break it again by pushing yourself too hard. It'll heal in due time, and when it does, then you can go all in.

[–]2dogsandpizza1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The progress you can make now will be insignificant to a lifetime of suffering with a bad foot because you didn't let it heel properly. Healing sucks but it really is critical that you heel it properly so you can work harder in the future.

[–]gradchad points points [recovered] | Copy

Socrates barely lifted anything; unless it was a cup. He was more into calisthenics.

[–]Hoplitegr7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Fyi Socrates fought as a soldier in the Peloponnesian War.

[–]Andramoiennepe0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This post needs to be a lot longer

[–]helgisson0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Content like this is what keeps me coming back to TRP. Excellent post.

[–]cdogg750 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I always think of the fat Socrates from "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" giving body advice

[–]ArkAngelEV0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The physical body is both the beginning and the end. Praise be to zyzz, get aesthetic or die trying.

[–]Vinc3140 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Socrares was a pretty accomplished hoplite so he must've been somewhat strong in his youth

[–]Madterps0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Amen brother, preach! I've been in the gym busting my ass off and I am loving it.

[–]dabderax0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Brain and mind certainly isn't not the same thing.

One is the result of the other. Mind is the emerging property of the brain, same way as flying is an emerging property of the feather.

Primal function of the brain is and was to control and optimize the movement.

[–]enigmatic360-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Let's not forget that in Ancient Greece men were fighting wars with spears and building great monuments by hand, more or less. We have the printed word, computers, and indescribable machines controlled by no more than your hand. Should you be fat and inert? Of course not, but let's not pretend his perspective was not different. Will your mind be healthier with sweat and pain? Sure but come on the realities of the modern man are far different from "back in the day", and spirit is a metaphor to consciousness. Let's not pretend it's an entity outside of our mind.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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