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Jordan Peterson, Fallacies, and the Tragic State of this Sub

by nietzschethegreat | July 31, 2018 | TheRedPill

898 upvotes

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Introduction

There's a been a whole charade of backlash and relentless vitriol against Jordan Peterson by a ton of members on this sub recently.

Just yesterday, the top, pinned post was the moderator making fun of Jordan Peterson's lecture on psychopathy and pick-up artists. He simply took a transcript from his speech during a university lecture and edited out all the punctuation to make it seem like a bunch of nonsensical ramble.

Anyways, I thought this sub was supposed to bolster good quality content, not turn it into a fucking dumpster fire.

Peterson's right. Forget all of your ridiculous notions about politics and "conserva-cuck" nonsense.

Pick-up artists are inherently psychopathic. And the fact that the creator of this sub is upset about this is absolutely inane, and really goes to show where it's headed. If he knew anything about men and sexual strategy, he'd know that pick-up artistry doesn't actually fall in line, at all, with the "Red Pill.”

I can already here you yelling that it's not inherently psychopathic. Or that psychopathy isn't bad. But that's besides the matter.

Pick-up is inherently for low-status men, against that which embraces the flourishing of the masculine, and counter-productive for those who are attempting to truly ascend the male dominance hierarchy.

The Male Dominance Hierarchy

Men have their own evolutionarily driven dominance hierarchy. They compete, fight, and struggle towards its peak. The females sit idly on the side, waiting to choose those who emerge on top.

Men hold each other to a high standard. As does the individual. You have a personal obligation to become all you can be. To follow your true calling, listen to the individuated self, and righteously strive towards the metaphorical kingdom of God on Earth.

A real man engages his true mission up the male dominance hierarchy and focuses solely on himself and actualizing his plurapotentiality, narrowing a multitude of possibilities into one single frame of existence as he becomes who he truly is.

If a man tries to escape his evolutionary prerogative or that which calls his Being forward, he will suffer and never live a fulfilling, meaningful existence. It's natural law.

Pick-Up

How does pick-up fit in with that?

You're shying away from becoming who you can be, and attempting to circumvent the hierarchy by manipulating the highly-perceptive feminine into thinking that you are high status, when you're not. And that never plays out well—for the male. No male will ever be truly sexually successful through a facade of status, memorized routines and lines, and a weak masculine foundation.

As a result, if the facade and veneer of sophistication succeeds, we get men who are inherently low status, unattractive, and have no real value fucking women who think they are high-status, attractive, and capable of climbing the dominance hierarchy. It's bad for society and men themselves.

"Pick-up" and "Game" masquerade as facades for any true imperative of climbing the male dominance hierarchy. It’s a rationalized, half-baked attempt for men to cheat the rules of reality—one that will never succeed in the end.

“Pick-up” is for low-status men.

"Pick-up artists" and teachers of "pick-up" use routines, verbal tricks, and superficial elements with the "veneer of sophistication" to trick women into thinking they are something they are not. Low status men who don't have the ability nor the potential to become what they could be, so they have to resort to displaying all the behaviors that a high status man naturally, outwardly manifests without being the high status man themselves.

The "Red Pill" isn't about low status men trying to "pick up" women or manipulating them subconsciously (from both frames of reference, that is) into liking them. It's about becoming a truly high status man who lives for his own values and needs, naturally attracting women.

Peterson's Dilemma

Just because you disagree with one or two of Jordan Peterson's statements doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bathwater.

He's studied, endlessly, the horrors Western civilization was capable of in the 20th century, and has a deep understanding of the human mind in every facet imaginable. He's a trained clinical psychologist, and not just any old one at that. He has over ten thousand citations on his psychology papers, he taught at the most prestigious university in the world, and wrote the best-selling non-fiction book in the Western world at the moment.

He has good intentions. I can't believe how close-minded some of you could be to call him "blue-pilled" or any more of that blabber. In fact, he probably understands more about society, the political spectrum, and intersexual affairs more than any of you. No, he definitely does.

He’s all for the individual and for the bolstering of young men both as individual, masculine beings and as benefactors of society. In fact, he’s probably the first well-known public figure to speak about such important topics that directly relate to this sub’s motives in recent times. You should be thanking him for bringing a new light to masculinity and for fighting against the radical liberals and those who condemn “toxic masculinity.”

Just because he knows certain things doesn't mean he has to speak about them in public. His "credibility" would be shot off the moment he mentions any real truths to society.

You don't think Peterson knows exactly what women are attracted to? You don't think he knows exactly how bitter and resentful men are? You don't think he knows exactly how society is structured?

How well would it go if he starts spewing out true female nature on some random podcast, or proves that society is run on a set of dominance hierarchies, and it's an inevitable fact that human nature will always tend towards these paradigms, no matter what?

He's not a fucking retard. He knows exactly how all these things work. Just because he keeps his mouth shut so he can keep a living and not get death threats doesn't give you the right to start attacking him. I'd like to see how you measure up to the man himself.

I don’t agree with everything Peterson says himself, but not for the retarded reasons TRP “higher-ups” are attacking him for. He’s out to help you, and if you can’t see what he’s trying to do there’s nobody coming to rescue you. He’s making your pathway to powerful masculinity and a healthy sense of what a man is much, much easier. Jesus, have some gratitude.

Conclusion

This dogma that has been circulating the sub, especially that by the endorsed contributors and moderators, is drowning us all.

Don’t any of you have anything better to do than hate on a psychology professor who’s making radical changes, especially those that indirectly support a conservative political agenda?

The only reasonable explanation is that none of his attackers have read a word of what he’s preached or watched a single one of his acclaimed lectures.

Peterson’s the man giving a sermon out on the mountain to thousands of eager listeners, and those who criticize him are a bunch of insignificant sheep roaming out among the fields below. If you have a real contention, stop complaining and have some respect for yourself.

Peterson's words absolutely should be scrutinized. But not with half-hearted write-offs, pseudo-intellectual polemical attacks, ad hominem criticisms, and certainly not with satirical, biased posts which fail to present sufficient evidence against that which he argues.

So I don't know where the fuck this sub is headed, but honestly I couldn't care less. If you all drive yourselves into the ground in a carnival of fury and self-righteousness, go right ahead.


Post Information
Title Jordan Peterson, Fallacies, and the Tragic State of this Sub
Author nietzschethegreat
Upvotes 898
Comments 235
Date 31 July 2018 09:08 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/51755
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/93cv4j/jordan_peterson_fallacies_and_the_tragic_state_of/
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Comments

[–]Modredpillschool[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (52 children) | Copy

Man you chucklefucks really don't get it. My post was "debate ideas not the man" and you immediately run for a defense of a man.

Introduction There's a been a whole charade of backlash and relentless vitriol against Jordan Peterson by a ton of members on this sub recently.

Just yesterday, the top, pinned post was the moderator making fun of Jordan Peterson's lecture on psychopathy and pick-up artists. He simply took a transcript from his speech during a university lecture and edited out all the punctuation to make it seem like a bunch of nonsensical ramble.

It was a copy/paste from youtube's transcription.

Anyways, I thought this sub was supposed to bolster good quality content, not turn it into a fucking dumpster fire.

Concern troll.

He's right. Pick-up artists are inherently psychopathic.

Ah, good point.

And the fact that the creator of this sub is upset about this is absolutely inane, and really goes to show where it's headed.

You know nothing of the origins of this subreddit if you think that's where we're "headed." We were already there, who the fuck are you?

Pick-up artistry doesn't actually fall in line, at all, with the "Red Pill.”

I can already here you yelling that it's not inherently psychopathic. Or that psychopathy isn't bad. But that's besides the matter.

Pick-up is inherently for low-status men, against that which embraces the flourishing of the masculine, and counter-productive for those who are attempting to truly ascend the male dominance hierarchy.

Ah, good point. The age-old advice: Just don't be low status. Be attractive, don't be unattractive.

Listen, I think learning about TRP is useful whether you're a natural chad with money falling out of your pockets or you're a loser with spaghetti falling out of your pockets. But let's face it, a lot of the guys who end up here are the ones who need the most help.

Even if you disagree with the caricature of pick-up artists as fedora-wearing sleaze-bags, you're missing the point. Pick-up doesn't focus on the actualization of the man. It doesn't further one's status or mission. Instead, it places emphasis upon the female and encourages the male to escape his true imperative. The intrinsic motive of "pick-up" and "Game" is weak and counter-productive.

"Actualization of the man." You are simply taking manhood and framing it in a feminine-primary light. You are doing exactly what we've been talking about on the red pill for years.

Game isn't weak and counter productive, it is a very useful tool that a lot of smart guys came up with to help awkward idiots learn how to communicate with women. That doesn't make you less of a man or prevent the "actualization of the man" or whatever newaged nonsense you're on about.

Learning things like agree and amplify aren't just cheap tricks, they're insights into human psychology that help you get a new perspective on how humans interact.

It seems like you think game is just sitting around memorizing pickup lines. That's fucking retarded, and the only way somebody could come to that conclusion is if they're new here and haven't read the fucking sidebar.

When you internalize concepts like agree and amplify, you aren't regurgitating prewritten lines. You're understanding why people like it, why it pushes the right buttons, and then you're using your own wit to talk with other humans while avoiding the pitfalls of being overly defensive, boorish, or antisocial.

For some guys that didn't have dads or role models, this is more important than you'd think.

But I'm glad your advice is just "be high value." Shut down TRP guys, this dude just solved sex.

It's not just semantics either. Pick-up itself encompasses a a wide swath of beliefs, and all fall under an anti-masculine, manipulative sphere of ideology.

Who defines masculine in this scenario? Because if I decide to pick up women and use whatever I've learned here, I sure as hell am as masculine as they get. You don't get to decide if I'm a man or not. Neither does Peterson. Neither does the feminine imperative.

In case you didn't get it yet, that's the fucking point of TRP. To reject the notion that other people get to define masculinity in order to control you.

Still doubtful that pick-up is anti-Red Pill and anti-masculine? Great, cause I'm about to explain it to you.

The Male Dominance Hierarchy Men have their own evolutionarily driven dominance hierarchy. They compete, fight, and struggle towards its peak. The females sit idly on the side, waiting to choose those who emerge on top.

Men hold each other to a high standard. As does the individual. You have a personal obligation to become all you can be. To follow your true calling, listen to the individuated self, and righteously strive towards the metaphorical kingdom of God on Earth.

Jesus Christ that's some meaningless new-age drivel.

Your words: You have a personal obligation to become all you can be.

How do you get from point A to point B? So far your advice has amounted to "stop being low value." But how? How do you get an anti-social beta who doesn't know how to talk to women to suddenly become good at talking to women?

If only there were a forum dedicated to helping men solve that problem.... If only.

A real man engages his true mission up the male dominance hierarchy and focuses solely on himself and actualizing his plurapotentiality, narrowing a multitude of possibilities into one single frame of existence as he becomes who he truly is.

Ah, there we go again. Somebody telling me what a real man does in an attempt to get me to follow his rules. I've fallen for that trick before. That's what lead me here.

Listen you're really on about this dominance hierarchy nonsense, but some guys just want to get better at maximizing their sexual strategy. Some to start families, others to get laid, while others do it just to know they can.

If a man tries to escape his evolutionary prerogative or that which calls his Being forward, he will suffer and never live a fulfilling, meaningful existence. It's natural law.

Did a voice in your head tell you that?

Seems to me we're driven to make babies, and beyond that there isn't much more evolution says.

Pick-Up How does pick-up fit in with that?

You're shying away from becoming who you can be, and attempting to circumvent the hierarchy by manipulating the highly-perceptive feminine into thinking that you are high status, when you're not. And that never plays out well—for the male. No male will ever be truly sexually successful through a facade of status, memorized routines and lines, and a weak masculine foundation.

Essentially, you're cheating nature. There are no shortcuts to the top.

That's where you're wrong, bucko. If I have more sex than you, and make more babies, then as far as evolution is concerned, I win. That's all there is to it.

I disagree that game is cheating - but then again I don't think anything is cheating because there are no rules.

But here you are again, trying to define proper masculinity by appeasing the fempire and saying you must only be high value or fuck off. Well, I don't play by their rules, and I don't play by yours either. If I want to do things my way, I'm going to. And if you don't like that, fuck you.

As a result, if the facade and veneer of sophistication succeeds, we get men who are inherently low status, unattractive, and have no real value fucking women who think they are high-status, attractive, and capable of climbing the dominance hierarchy. It's bad for society and men themselves.

Those poor hapless women. Society is truly doomed.

Wait.. but why? Oh because you said so?

"Pick-up" and "Game" masquerade as facades for any true imperative of climbing the male dominance hierarchy. It’s a rationalized, half-baked attempt for men to cheat the rules of reality—one that will never succeed in the end.

I don't know if all you JP trolls are just the same guy but it seems like you hide the fact that you don't have a point in a "veneer of sophistication." Let's count the ten dollar words and see how it compares to your point.

You've used the phrase "male dominance hierarchy" a number of times- but your nebulous definition leaves much to be desired. Is it just the big eternal competition to see who gets the most access to women? But here you've presented us a list of caveats that exclude things like actually getting access to women in JP unapproved ways. Who gets to say what the fuck you mean? Muscles are approved, wit is unapproved. Dressing well is approved, but overdressing is unapproved.

Good god, we're going to need referees to play by your rules.

"The actualization of the man." Sounds to me like somebody just took a philosophy 101 class. If you had paid attention in that class, you'd remember the part about different strokes for different folks.

You've got your own idea of what self-actualization means. Fair enough, go do it and leave us alone.

“Pick-up” is for low-status men.

"Pick-up artists" and teachers of "pick-up" use routines, verbal tricks, and superficial elements with the "veneer of sophistication" to trick women into thinking they are something they are not.

What? Clever? I would argue if you're smart enough to work in jokes and beat shit tests then you probably are clever.

(Continued in next comment)

[–]Pope_Lucious74 points75 points  (7 children) | Copy

Of course Peterson is going to shit on Pick Up.

The dude is a traditionalist.

Who cares? If you want some pussy, go get it.

I don’t understand what is so complicated about this? Are we supposed to be in complete alignment with anyone who has some good ideas?

[–]Prophets_Prey3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy

The whole idea of pick up is based on selling a lie. It's deluding yourself and others into thinking you're something you're not. If you want to do that without actually having any substance to back that up, go ahead. It's your life.

[–]1LowCreddit8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

Bullshit. Pickup is about sales techniques. Is it easier to sell a better product? Yes it is. Can a good product not be sold because of poor selling? Absolutely. Lifting is TRP's first advice for a reason, but game is still an important part.

This is exactly the feminization that ruins the PUA community. "We should only focus on self-improvement. Game is misogyny." Bullshit. Game works. Lifting works. Do both and ignore the trolls.

[–]Prophets_Prey-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about the pick up community being without substance. They're all delusional selling each other delusions. Trp is more than just pick up, it's actually having substance. Before you get your knickers in a twist, understand what I'm talking about.

Knowing how to game is fine. But if that's all you know, can you really say you're an actualised man? You've got to have more going for you in your life. Take your low IQ, emotional rant elsewhere.

[–]Pope_Lucious-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

We all put on various skins to get what we want in life.

Do you walk into a business proposal naked with your dick swinging, grunting whatever incoherent nonsense you have in your head?

Or do you participate in the social convention of wearing a suit and tie and do the necessary social dances to get what you want?

[–]Prophets_Prey4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Bad comparison. I'd rather go in there knowing that I actually have substance to back up my claims, not some rehearsed script. God forbid they ask me for proof and I don't have anything to show for it.

[–]Pope_Lucious0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The point is without participating in the social game it doesn’t matter what “substance” you have.

[–]ValarMorghulis9062 points63 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'm not going to weigh in on the sub-argument here, but I'll say this: As someone who attends a liberal college, I would KILL for a professor with the amount of balls Peterson has. A lot of you don't realize how bad it is until you get a dosage of college Feminazi rhetoric right to the dome.

[–]Prophets_Prey11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

I feel you. Most universities are like this. Hell, we even had to do a feminist course for one of our classes. Absolutely incredible.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't know how you dudes stomach that shit. If I was in college this day and age I'd make such a scene and likely get booted out. About 10 years ago when I did my time at a State College it was by all means very liberal (My Poli-Sci teacher was candidly putting Castro on a pedestal and giving people A's for writing "BUSH BAD CAUSE CHRISHTINS ARE EVIL") - but it was nothing compared to this straight up indoctrination day-care center bullshit.

[–]womans_algorithm218 points219 points  (10 children) | Copy

I love how this was well written post with arguments and what not, yet it was removed, I suspect because it disagrees with mods.

'Member when mods said it's ok for you to disagree, as long as you provide arguments? I 'member.

/u/redpilschool, i realize i am noone on this sub, but i think trp users getting censored like this is not a good thing for this subreddit. What happened to "men comparing notes"?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It’s not removed. I can see it.

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -151 points-150 points  (2 children) | Copy

RPS has tags turn off. Don't bother. Sixty day vacation for concern troll.

[–]666Evo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

-142 points

The impotent rage hahaha

[–]PIGamer86 1 points [recovered]  (25 children) | Copy

I can’t wait to come back later and read all the butthurt.

[–]womans_algorithm 1 points [recovered]  (23 children) | Copy

You wish, mods removed the thread.

[–]andrewmaster05 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

lmfao this is a wild ride

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (19 children) | Copy

What a bunch of idiots they are. I'm done with the Red Pill and Reddit. Y'all can drive yourselves into the ground and slave away on your keyboards.

[–][deleted] 78 points79 points  (15 children) | Copy

I dont understand, where free speech flourishes truth comes out on top. If they are so confident what they are correct in their view point they wouldnt attempt to shut down opposing views. This is really sad. Dont be disheartened brother.

[–]Patresko 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy

I've realized this with my recent post, which gained a good traction in the scope of 12 hours, was top 3 for the majority of it's lifetime and then it got suddenly removed by u/Halitenina.

Just because I dared to advise our brotherhood on benefits of slowing down.

This forum is the definition of an echo chamber, and all the posts that bring value by stirring the still waters of dogmatism, get deleted.

Ask yourself, do you really want to frequent a place that prohibits free discussion?

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

This sub has a clear message.

If you disagree with the message then state why clearly and be able to back it up. If you can't do that then don't frequent.

If you feel you have a better message, start your own sub.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

congrats on your 4th point

[–]Hailteni NaHalitenina[M] -42 points-41 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just because I dared to advise our brotherhood on benefits of slowing down.

No, I told you why I removed your post.

You didn't write about the benefits of slowing down. You wrote (and I quote):

"I would also advice you not to go for the pro-bodybuilder type of physique, unless it's your only life goal and you have professional ambitions."

"Your work shouldn't be an Olympic sprint. Make it a marathon. Slow-paced, consistent, long-distance run."

"That, my dearest friend, might be too much pussy for you. Sure, it feels great, it boosts your ego, you feel like a man after all those years of being a kiss-less virgin. But it's time to step-back. Reevaluate how you spend your time."

Who the fuck are you and why are you telling me what I should do with my time?

Ask yourself, do you really want to frequent a place that prohibits free discussion?

Yeah, you're right. I don't know why you'd want to spend any time here, so let me show you the door. Goodbye.

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -41 points-40 points  (0 children) | Copy

Concern troll.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/934c9c/disappointment_in_the_lack_of_critical_thinking/e3awbjd/

This kid disagreed with op. He isn't banned. Yet at 17 he managed not to do it by being a whiny little bitch. Learn from him.

[–]Modredpillschool10 points11 points  (6 children) | Copy

Automod nabbed it, we reviewed it, and approved the thread, along with the proper beatdown this OP deserved.

[–]jebemtvoju 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy

you didn't pull any punches there hah. I wonder if there's much point to validating the post with the thorough reply, though. Didn't you/mods use to just delete shit like this without a second look? but I guess the approach does have to change when the subscriber count skyrockets

[–]Modredpillschool7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy

Every so often, when we really want to put something to bed, we'll leave a sacrificial lamb up for all to see.

The reply wasn't for him, it was for the onlookers.

[–]oscarasimov 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

The reply wasn't for him, it was for the onlookers.

lol is that why you removed everyone's comments?

[–]Modredpillschool0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

We removed rule breaking comments.

[–]TryDoingSomethingNew4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

You don't have much of an argument if you resort to calling names. If you're going to be dramatic, condescending to others here, and get emotional, then yes perhaps it's best you leave.

You're entitled to your opinions, but your post simply was incorrect in quite a few assertions.

There's too much to go into here and I don't need to as one of the mods addressed it quite well.

Essentially, lecturing other men on how they should live their lives is not your place to do, nor mine. Times have changed and men react accordingly, with each pursuing whatever path they feel is best.

If you really believe men should live according to someone else's faux sense of obligations, then perhaps the blue pill is a better fit for you.

Take care.

[–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

kkthxby

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -40 points-39 points  (0 children) | Copy

I just did you a favor then.

[–]throwaway16431 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

About time. Thank you mods

[–]Cyxana111 points112 points  (10 children) | Copy

The thing that bothers me about Peterson is that if people don't agree with one thing he's saying (for example religious things) they dismiss everything.

He has great points about the importance of being an individual and not letting the group hold you back. He encourages forming strong relationships with important people around you who want your best. He wants people to be honest with themselves and others so you aren't afraid of being exposed because it turns out there is no need to hide what ever they're afraid will be exposed.

Secondly, he advocates strongly for monogamy and and two parent households as this is the best alternative for children. He wants a culture where neither sexes would cheat and people wouldn't settle but instead find someone who both try everyday to improve themselves (meaning you see someone not for what they are but what they are trying to become and you want to help them). If you want to have children and want to provide the best for them then finding and trying to have a two-parent supportive household seems to be currently the best option and the toolkit TRP provides is a great way to achieve that imo.

Personally, I don't care for religion but I listened to a lot to his lectures on the bible because I find it interesting and I believe there has to be some value in it if it has survived for so long and once again just because you don't agree with some things in the bible doesn't mean you should dismiss it entirely.

[–]clearedmycookies6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, I don't get it. I must have missed something since a couple of weeks ago, there were high praise for Peterson talking about red pill truths on JRE.

And apparently he's super blue pill now?

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Asked and answered already.

[–]MoDuReddit-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

just because you don't agree with some things in the bible doesn't mean you should dismiss it entirely.

I agree. But it's still not a positive, especially when were dealing such red pill subjects, which religion is very very big blue pill. Maybe when he's divorce raped, he'll get it.

[–]Cyxana1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe, but he already has raised his children and seems to have good relationships with them.

[–]FeedEmColdSardines 1 points [recovered]  (19 children) | Copy

The worst thing about this sub is quickly becoming the fact that ya'll mfs can't seem to put this Jordan Peterson shit to rest. No one has all the answers, no one is ever right across the board on every single topic, no one is to be worshipped as a demigod or is above scrutiny. He's got some good ideas, and some are off the mark imo. To continue to sprerg out for weeks going back and forth over this dude is just delving into the absurd. If you like what he says great if not great. Seriously, who gives a shit? If cold approaching women at bars and clubs every night is working for you and you're getting laid then do it, why tf would you then care what Jordan Peterson has to say about it. He puts his fuckin pants on 1 leg at a time just like you. Stop pedestalizing intellectuals. He's maybe 4% smarter than other people at best. His logic is hardly infallible. Plenty of plot holes in EVERYONE'S world view. Value what YOU think above anything else. You are the one who's living your life after all

[–]TheMrk79012 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

You're totaly right. I would still listen though, since hearing opposing positions can only do good.

[–]wrekd9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

I sometimes sit and put both legs in at once. Then I stand and pull up in one motion. SO DON'T TELL ME HOW I PUT MY FUCKING PANTS ON!!!!

[–]Modredpillschool1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

ya'll mfs can't seem to put this Jordan Peterson shit to rest.

I just posted that we're not tolerating any more of it.

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (13 children) | Copy

This coming from a man who frequents the MGTOW sub. Jesus christ, these faux-critics are really having at it.

[–]pete_148835 points36 points  (1 child) | Copy

Argue with the idea, not the man.

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

^ This

[–]batfish5510 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you have to review someone's post history to try to win an argument, you've already lost. A person is allowed to have opinions on a variety of topics.

I'll save you time, I spend more time there as well.

[–]FeedEmColdSardines 1 points [recovered]  (9 children) | Copy

MGTOW has some good fucking points. I don't fully align with them or TRP or any one groups ideologies. I pick and choose what resonates as truth with me. In other words, I think for myself. You should try it.

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (8 children) | Copy

Yes, they absolutely do have good points. But to deny your greatest imperative as a man and to falsely categorize half of the human population as disgusting beings worthy of nothing but destruction and contempt is seriously irrespectable.

[–]cumfortably_dumb 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

And we expect the same from the moderators. Its disheartening to see that some shit posts with no value are still up and this has been deleted before anyone could make sense of it.

[–]throwaway1643 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy

Don't impose your fucking morality on others. The TRP reveals sexual strategy and reveals why it works using ideas from evolution and natural selection.

It doesn't say what people should do with this information, they can do as they want.

[–]WolfofAnarchy 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

Don't impose morality? Is that what you would say to those protesting their authoritarian governments?

Absolutely impose your morality on others. Judge them, not personally but by their ideas and groups. That way people discuss, debate, and grow.

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

This isn't morality.

You're a man. She's a woman. To say that the feminine, the selectors of Nature, are all fundamentally corrupt Beings sounds more like a complaint from a man who is unable to successfully achieve their approval. And that doesn't mean there's something wrong with the women—it's on the individual.

If you find that 3.5 billion people on this planet are hard-wired to corruption and disgust, maybe the 1 person which is you may have something to do with it. That's no fucking "morality."

[–]throwaway16436 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Again you are ascribing a subset of MGTOW beliefs to the entire population, based on a strawman. Personally, I don't ascribe to the MGTOW ideas.

But I have plenty of buddies who are MGTOW but still sleep around, and don't think women are corrupt or disgusting. Like most people, you are attributing a simplistic set of beliefs, driven by a misguided sense of morality, on a complex and nuanced subject. I've seen plenty of men, who even respect and love women, live a MGTOW lifestyle simply because of cost benefit analysis.

[–]sebastianconcept43 points44 points  (8 children) | Copy

Anything that deviates from genuine desire should be predictably, something low value for any intelligent man (and womam BTW) so, while some skills in PUA are important to get the basics right, those should only be a small aid in a greater genuine experience that a man build to get a woman he likes. That’s how both enjoy a better game and a sweet game of power.

I am all for using game to grab hypergamy’s attention inside your frame but a good man, a great alpha, has no mercy in questioning the ethics of its game. Objetivizing woman (people for the case) to an amoral extreme there is no question is a road to psychopathy. Not even disputable.

I’m new to this community so I’m surprised to see animosity towards Jordan Peterson. The man is one of the very few Western Civilization heros in a time where their mortal enemies are having more momentum than ever in the history of the Cultural War.

If you can question technically JBP then fine, that’s a discussion worthy to have to advance science. But, due to the position he has and what he defends, if you are engaging in dialectic boxing to react to something he said that made you uncomfortable, then notice that is an automatic reaction because you are ego invested so much in yourself that you don’t care about the civilization that gave you all the opportunities that you are enjoying and, secondarily, subconsciously preparing yourself to align to its enemies or be inadvertently useful to them.

[–]smartscience3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Objetivizing woman

I've never gotten a straight answer from feminists about what this even means. Perhaps 3D-printing ones own sex robots?

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -32 points-31 points  (5 children) | Copy

^ See? I'm not banning this guy.

[–]chinagreenelvis 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

"This guy" wouldn't be voicing this opinion if OP hadn't posted first.

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -14 points-13 points  (2 children) | Copy

I don't care about his opinion. It's an example of how to behave like an adult while participating in a forum.

[–]mmerijn1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I would prefer caring but politely disagreeing, but I'll take the not banning.

[–]reyaan75 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Seriously, What a dedication you guys have! The collective efforts you guys have put to create to this sub is amazing. I'm relatively new to this sub, at first I didn't take it seriously that much but gradually I realized it is genuinely good. Fuck! Open a School. A real one lol. I'd be the first to take the admission. hahaha

[–]MemphisBro12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy

Pickup is not about ignoring personal growth and deceiving women into thinking you have achieved personal growth.

It can be frustrating to read posts that are negative towards it from guys who have clearly never practiced it.

Doctor, lawyer, whatever you may be, having PUA skills will get you TOP TIER WOMEN.

Being a PUA is not a way of life it’s simply a skill set to go attract the woman you want. And it’s made easier by having a successful life. So no, we don’t ignore personal growth. At all.

[–]Modredpillschool8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

This shouldn't be a radical idea on TRP.

[–]I_BET_UR_MAD2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It should be but this sub has been infected with a plague of middle and high schoolers out on their summer break. We need to relentlessly mock and trash them until they fuck off back to cringeanarchy.

The Peterson dick riding is absolutely ridiculous. This guy is a shit tier wannabe philosopher. His ideas are laughable. "PUA is just lying to women about your status" are you fucking stupid? Everyone lies about their status, PUA just makes you better at it. And if you don't like that then that's perfectly alright but the solution is not to shit on PUA, it's to get rid of the underlying societal reasons why we're forced to use PUA in the first place. Just getting rid of PUA is effectively handicapping yourself- the game is exactly the same but now you don't have an advantage.

[–]VisualCandidate24 points25 points  (5 children) | Copy

Ive found great benefit from TRP ... not the pickup community embedded in the dermal of this community. From us MEN sharing posts about increasing value, what our mind sets should be while going forward and even speaking about the overarching themes of politics, sociology the SJW community, and the list goes on.

TRP is great if we peruse the content and consume it with a grain of salt. However there is no quick fix here, just men who are ... who should be, sharing the knowledge and wisdom that whatever change we wish to achieve IS attainable. Pickup artistry to me has always been "beta" mentality. To be consumed and rehearsed when presenting yourself is quite frankly the most ostentatious idiocy a man can have.

The point of red pill is not AWALT so lets F*** all the Sl**s, the point of TRP is that well... WOMEN are NOT the goal, they should never be, they must not be. The GOAL is make yourself the best you can be, but maybe its our fault... we do live in a world of nearly instant gratification. What right do we have to tell you to get your head out of your a** and start paying attention to the world you live in, more importantly yourself? Any MAN caught up with vagina is not worthy of it... its cyclical bullsh** . Pu**y is not the end game it never has been it never should be. Because at the end of the day what value will you bring to your family, allies and community by being a philanderer.

Survival of you, your family, your allies through the acquisition, reinvestment and increase in Wealth, Power and Knowledge IS the end game...

[–]Nergaal2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The point of red pill is not AWALT so lets F*** all the Sl**s, the point of TRP is that well... WOMEN are NOT the goal, they should never be, they must not be.

AFAIK, at its origin TRP was purely about sexual strategies. IMO though, that is just the entry level. RP at the advanced level applies to a much wider audience: including judging/analyzing/interpreting non-sexual targets.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

That's actually not the point of the red pill.

Over time it's expanded to what you describe but at it's very core it's about sexual strategy and navigating the sexual market place. Not about becoming the person you've always wanted to be career wise/self actualization wise

I do however prefer the newer and expanded methodology

[–]VisualCandidate0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Interesting, Ive been on TRP for a few months now, exposed to it through MGTOW, SJW, Feminism on Youtube. That's really cool to hear I didn't realize that the beginning of TRP was about sexual strategy (PUA), thought it was always the "neo" TRP that I'm talking about. I think I can be a little more lenient on the PUAs knowing that. Kudos!

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

Damn what's with all the asterisks?

[–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat31 points32 points  (4 children) | Copy

Always love a good heated debate.

He's right. Pick-up artists are inherently psychopathic. And the fact that the creator of this sub is upset about this is absolutely inane, and really goes to show where it's headed.

JBP here makes a perhaps-true claim, and then uses the moral underpinning of it to shame the target of that claim. I like JBP but this is a tactic taken straight out of the playbook of the people he dislikes so much.

In reality, pick-up artistry may be psychopathic indeed, but then so what? Is it bad for society? Probably. But then so is spinning plates forever and never marrying. What would JBP think of redpillers? Would he carefully analyze our points, or discard us with the label of "nihilistics" or "sociopaths"?

Pick-up artistry doesn't actually fall in line, at all, with the "Red Pill.”

As you already know, pick-up artists discovered game, from which is founded our knowledge of intersexual dynamics. There is definitely a line of descent here and you can't deny it. Moreover, Game remains fundamental to TRP. "Frame", a core Game concept, is Rollo's rule #1. You very well know TRP advocates approaching women, dealing with shit tests, giving her mystery and excitement. You know very well that at least 50% of posts are about picking up women or maintaining arousal in a relationship. PUA may not "fall in line" with TRP, but you have to be blind not to see the overlap.

I can already here you yelling that it's not inherently psychopathic. Or that psychopathy isn't bad. But that's besides the matter.

Why would it be besides the matter? It's actually a cornerstone of TRP that sexual strategy is amoral, and that arguing from morals is forbidden here. It's actually very interesting to discuss whether or not PUA is psychopathic (I'd say it is. Helped from the fact that psychopathy is one of the components of the most potent combo of psychological traits in terms of sexual attraction: dark triad).

Pick-up doesn't focus on the actualization of the man. It doesn't further one's status or mission. Instead, it places emphasis upon the female and encourages the male to escape his true imperative. The intrinsic motive of "pick-up" and "Game" is weak and counter-productive.

Depends if one's mission is to get laid like a warlord (TRP's top post of all times). Same with PUAs. These were men on a mission. The mission to annihilate a lifetime's status of "being unfuckable". You may think it sad, or psychopathic indeed. But you can't deny they had a vision and that they poured their entire soul into it, as much as the Olympic athlete or the arctic explorer. Nobody would know the name of "Neil Strauss" if it weren't for that phase of his life, even if he regrets it so much now.

You make the classic, fundamental mistake of thinking that TRP's message of "focusing on your mission, not your woman" implies that you should somehow not engage with women at all. Sexual desire is natural. Men are horny. Men having to do the bulk of the seduction work is usual and expected (burden of performance). You can't expect men not to think about how to make "it" happen. Sure it doesn't mean you should make "pick-up" your mission, and sure it's a sad thing if men focus a large amount of their time on it. But please don't throw the baby with the bathwater. We need game, and as everything we need practice to get good at it. A healthy, regular, practice of game keeps your intersexual relationship skills sharp. It keeps your abundance mentality sharp. It replenishes your set of plates spinning when some are falling.

Men need sexual gratification. Celibacy, even voluntary, does not do good to the male's brain (catholic priests anyone?). Lack of sex will definitely boost our will to succeed, but continuous lack of sex despite efforts will turn any man insane (Elliot Rodger anyone?). Sex is necessary. And sex won't happen without a modicum of Game. Even the most good-looking man on earth needs to be able to entertain a conversation with a woman that doesn't make him sound like a retard, in order to get her into bed. Game is life-enabling. Game is a gift that was given to us by our PUA predecessors. Praise Be Unto Them.

A real man engages his true mission up the male dominance hierarchy and focuses solely on himself and actualizing his plurapotentiality, narrowing a multitude of possibilities into one single frame of existence as he becomes who he truly is.

You're talking about "male dominance hierarchy" as this grand abstract universal virtuous concept. It's not. We compete in a multitude of small, local, and time-bound dominance hierarchies. When Mystery experimented with over-the-top peacocking, it was an experiment in how he could establish himself at the top of the "men-in-this-club-who-don't-care-that-what-they-wear-is-silly" dominance hierarchy in that club that night. Also, so engrossed in the concept, you seem to forget the very fundamental reason men do dick-measuring contests to compete in the hierarchy. That's right. Being selected as a mate by a female human.

So sure enough, you can argue that PUA implies "manipulation". But why is this necessarily against the rules of competition for the hierarchy?

As a comparison, take advertisement. Pure attempts at manipulating the consumer to buy the product. Picture a market composed of a product A of slightly higher quality, competing with a product B of much-higher advertisement success. Product B dominates the market, until driving product A out of competition. Which one was the top of the dominance hierarchy (market)? Sure from a technological perspective, or a moral perspective, you would have preferred product A to win. But the market is holistic. It doesn't care about morals. It takes everything into account.

You don't have to have an emotional response to seeing all mods and most ECs criticizing JBP. I like him. I agree with 99% of the things he says. To me the most refreshing, intellectually-honest mind to come around since Sam Harris. I also understand the point of his critics (the intellectually honest ones of course, not the radicals on the left who simply discard him as a nazi). As the latest post by redpillschool reminded, the point is not to support blindly or criticize blindly specific people, but to analyze ideas and then support/criticize them. I read your ideas on PUAs, analyzed them from my perspective, decided to criticize them, and told you what I think of them, without having to retort to ad-hominem towards JBP (whose ideas, again, I overwhelmingly like). You could have followed the exact same approach in your "PUA is bad and is not red-pill" argument, without having to throw in all that emotion which rose entirely from your anger at seeing people disliking JBP.

[–]silversum11 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Best response I’ve read here. Or rather the one that fits my view the most. JBP got me on the path to self improvement almost 9 months before I found TRP. I wonder if I’d have found it if I hadn’t heard JBP first. A lot of his sentiments are echoed here. Although not everything he talks about is correct, even if it’s 80% he’s still way ahead of anyone else we’ve seen to this point.

[–]Endorsed Contributoritiswr1tten3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Binary thinking is a common problem with the plebs who don't get it yet - they would much rather pick a side just to say "fuck the other team" than live in the grey. The grey is much harder on the brain - requires significant critical thinking skills to identify where your beliefs don't quite align with an authority figure (or even more difficult, when they don't align with your other beliefs).

I received a great piece of advice, "There are people out there who spent their entire lives focused on one subject. If we're lucky enough, they wrote books about that subject. You now have a lifetime of work at your fingertips. Use it."

PUAs definitely obsessed over Game and sexual dynamics. They gave us all great work and subverted the most blue pill idea of all, that everyone is unique and just being yourself gets the girls. That insight was invaluable, and spawned TRP. Plebs think that by "reading the book" so to say you MUST be obsessed with women, or have made women your mission. Binary thinking at work right there.

PUA is just a tool, and so is TRP. TRP took things a step further and questioned/broke the rules in broader society, not just intersexual dynamics. I believe that's why it has traction PUA never had - it speaks to more than just getting the girls. Swiss army knife vs. a screwdriver.

You're talking about "male dominance hierarchy" as this grand abstract universal virtuous concept. It's not.... the very fundamental reason men do dick-measuring contests to compete in the hierarchy...Being selected as a mate by a female human.

100% agree. Where Peterson's ideas fail is in the prescription - he prescribes being your best self just like TRP, but the reason for the prescription is a moral one where "doing the right thing" is the end goal. Problem is, a "real man" by his definition doesn't match with the core of TRP. Binary thinking leaves no room to disagree with your idol - it's all or nothing. No good philosophy was made in that way.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

Pickup artists aren't psychopaths bruh. They are socially awkward nerds who had to break socialization down into little pieces to understand it. Also, there are lots of socially awkward nerds who climb the "dominance hiearchy" and are still terrible with women, so pickup is just generally helpful for teaching naturally awkward guys how to get a girlfriend. Psychopaths don't need pickup to talk to girls, as they don't feel socially inhibited like normal people. If anything, pickup is a bunch of VERY socially inhibited guys learning to mimic psychopathy in a mild way.

[–]I_BET_UR_MAD2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly. Op is using a long ass post to say "be attractive, don't be unattractive". The entire fucking point of trp is that it's "cheating". If you could pick up chicks naturally you wouldn't need it in the first place. Fuck off with your lobster man worship

[–]platoonpluto5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Worshipping Dr. Peterson as a hero and taking his words as the holy grail is incorrect for sure. Saying that, we need as many icons as we can get preaching positive masculinity to stem the overflowing negativity presented by those whom demonise men and call us toxic.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Where do people get the idea that PUA is a done by low status unnatractive men and that it's nothing but lying and manipulation and cheating woman out of a real Alpha? RSD channels on YouTube show the complete opposite.

[–]Senior ContributorSkorchZang5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Droll Judeo-Petersonian trash. All up in the feminine-primary Matrix, LARPing about how we're the "real men" since we're so moral and doing the noble, the difficult, the right thing. Refusing to cheat m'lady out of her "incredible intuitive feminine".

Our Red Pill is about stepping outside this Matrix. And it does look like cheating, from the inside. It looks like unearned and inexplicable superpowers with women. It is playful, and fun, which is why we call it Game, while you think it ought to be called "Hard Work". It enrages the blue pill "work hard" Peterson-cuck to no end that this is reality, this is all possible, while he is trying so hard to be a good boy to fit in with the system and getting nothing for his trouble.

The origin of TRPs contempt for the blue pill is not ideological or moral, it is pragmatic. The blue pill way does not work.

[–]Odins-left-eye22 points23 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't give a fuck if pickup is "bad for society." It was good for me. I did it for years because it helped me fuck women, which bolstered my confidence and gave me the underpinnings necessary to drive my way up the ladder. It's not "fake it forever;" it's "fake it 'till you make it." When you're doing game correctly, you are training yourself into the person who is actually confident and cavalier and funny in a cocky manner. It's no different from a dancer starting out by reading books and taking lessons on how to step with the proper technique. Only once he masters the technique and incorporates it into his muscle memory does he truly begin to create art with everything he's learned.

[–]Coroshi18 points19 points  (5 children) | Copy

If an individual can cheat his way into reproducing and spreading his genes, then cheating becomes a suitable evolutionary strategy. The existence of a certain number of cheaters, or in this case pick-up artists, becomes a constituent of the Nash equilibrium. In other words - if you manage to cheat your way into passing an exam, then you deserve to pass it. There is no morality within the pick-up movement, it's just a strategy. Calling it psychopathic, however, benefits the female imperative immensely.

With that being said, I do believe Peterson to be a positive figure, but many people here are just looking for another idol to worship. Everything he says has to be critically evaluated and I don't believe people do that. They just hear him spew out a number of complex words and phrases and go "wooow".

[–]chinagreenelvis 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

I call it the Kobiyashi Maru.

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy

Just because you're attempting to cheat doesn't mean you'll be successful. Look at the type of women these "pick-up artists" attract. None of them will be wildly successful with women and become a truly sexually successful male. Not to mention his inner sense of valuelessness which he is constantly trying to make up through the external means of female attention and validation.

[–]Coroshi2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well that depends on how you define "successful". The philosopher in your name was all about perspectivism. The whole pick-up movement exploded two decades ago, and it certainly wasn't because it didn't yield results. Sure, they probably didn't have any sense of intrinsic value, they probably weren't feeling fulfilled, heck one of the originators of the movement (Mystery) had a series of mental breakdowns. They made females the center of their lives, all of that is true. But the point is - they did fuck women, and lots of them. That is pretty much all the nature cares about. Nature is amoral and cares not about the "inner state" of individuals spreading their genes, it only ever "cares" about the selection process - process which some of them passed.

[–]modTheRedPike3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

. Look at the type of women

Type of woman? Whoa. The bloop emerges.

[–]Endorsed Contributoritiswr1tten11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

Let's cut right to the chase: the dominance hierarchy you've imagined, like all hierarchies, isn't an abstract. Any hierarchy can be measured, and your argument about the subversion of an also imagined natural law doesn't establish the unit of measurement by which men become top men. Therefore, it's not logically valid to claim pick up goes against natural law because you don't define the parameters of success outside the platitude of self actualization.

The easiest way to understand the core of TRP is to ask why it makes the outsiders so upset. That is easy: "Game" wasn't invented, it was defined and stated openly. PUAs, the origin of TRP, made everyone including you mad because they developed an explicit method to attract women.

Women got mad because you're not supposed to do that, they're all special and unique and attraction isn't formulaic, it's supposed to be magical. It proved their belief system wrong, and did it overtly. You take issue for the same reason - TRP subverts what you call natural law and openly challenges Peterson, who you are defending for some weird reason. Your "just because he knows" statement is proof of this - not stating the real truth is what makes him not TRP regardless of whether he knows or believes TRP.

To weave all this together, hierarchy has to be measured, and a key way humans measure a man is sexual success (see: preselection). TRP core principles state that if you lift, develop your Game, and develop your Frame, you'll be sexually successful. TRP also states that what everyone else tells you about attracting women was wrong, and that the blue pill system exists to serve a society that uses you like a plow horse.

Peterson stating that PUA/TRP is "bad" is a moral statement taking issue with the fact that it works. Thus, many here contest that part of his philosophy. Any argument couched in "you should be thankful" is advocating from an authority position, which is a basic logical fallacy. Argue from the idea.

[–]123newaccount3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

and has a deep understanding of the human mind in every facet imaginable.

stopped reading here.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

When someone decides to "call me out" in a burst of drama, I like to consider the source. After all, if we are unwilling to listen to any criticism, we can never learn again... but if we stop to listen to it all, we are giving our precious time away to internet retards.

So, I asked myself, what is OP's level of understanding of what TRP is about? How deeply has he understood what TRP teaches? Is this coming from a place of understanding, or is it a reaction to a first impression?

Well, here OP is, in his own words:

Asking girls on dates feels kind of pathetic. I feel like I'm investing too much of my time to go out and treat her with coffee, or take her on a walk, or get a drink with her. I know you can build rapport and comfort in these types of venues, but it just feels so pathetic.

Seems more direct and assertive to just asking them to "chill" or "come over to my place" and fuck.

Should you treat different girls differently? Ones you'd considering LTR'ing you ask on dates, and those as just plates you ask to hook up directly?

TL;DR — I feel like going on "dates" is high-investment, unnecessary, and overly needy. Is it better to just ask to chill at my place or her place, and just call them over directly?

Meh, not a bad beginner question. Unfortunately, I really don't think this level of understanding qualifies him for analysis of TRP as a whole, or what its direction should or shouldn't be.

So, let's answer the more valuable post:

/u/nietzschethegreat, the answer to your question is :

There's isn't a readily discernible difference, at the beginning, between "plate" and "considering an LTR"... remember that getting to relationship is her job, not yours. Your initial goal, therefore, isn't to treat this or that girl differently, it's to get to sex as quickly and cheaply as possible. THEN you decide if you want to promote, or not, depending on her behaviour. But every girl enters the ladder at the bottom.

So, "netflix and chill" if you can, date if she's not going to go for that, and you still feel like going for it. Those options, and a whole lot of others, and just tools in your toolbox. You select what tools to use depending on the girl and the circumstances.

[–]TRP Legal ExpertColdIceZero3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

There exists a divergence in TRP, a divergence that may warrant a discussion of branching off another sub group to allow the opportunity for certain users to focus on distinct aspects of TRP.

TRP started with a simple mission: to improve men's sexual success with women. This sub was a museum for women in the ancient sense of the word: a place for men to academically muse about their perspectives and opinions about women and to formulate theories based upon observations in the real world.

Interestingly, over a short period of time, the community at large came to the consensus that women are attracted to men who have a mission, who have a purpose in their lives. Further, it became evident that men should not make women the mission of their life; a man's mission should be something else, something more important.

And therein lies the paradox. Men are largely drawn to this community because of their lack of sexual or relational success with women; and it turns out that one of the best methods for being attractive to women is having more important shit going on in your life than being attractive for the sake of being attractive.

So if the original purpose of TRP was to increase a man's sexual success with a woman but, in the process of discovering one's own self actualization, you stop focusing on increasing your attractiveness to women and start focusing on other goals, then what is TRP?

In my opinion, TRP helped many of us to break free of our blue pill, a-woman-will-solve-all-of-my-problems mindset. And in the process, many of us discovered that pursuing women shouldn't be the main aspect of our lives.

And yet many aspects of TRP are very closely tied to the original goals of the PUA community: finding better strategies to improve your ability to get your dick wet.

So what is TRP? Are we a community aimed toward slaying more and better pussy? Are we a community of once savages working toward greater personal enlightenment?

It seems like those goals are almost mutually exclusive in pursuit and passion.

I don't blame TRP users who are here for pussy gathering strategies. And I don't see it as derogatory to relate them to PUA, because both of their end goals are the same.

Yet at the same time, there are still other aspects of the TRP community focused on different goals. Those goals are not the same goals as the PUA community. So I believe there may be a bit of an identity issue here, with large segments of TRP claiming what TrueTRPTM really is.

[–]Spark-0016 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

People with very different goals and ethical values sometimes end up being on the same side.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I understand and appreciate the mods intolerance for concern trolling. Sometimes it's a fine line. I think, however, that in this post the discussion of PUA and game as perhaps being a net negative in the broader goal of achieving true high value is warranted and interesting, opinions on Jordan Peterson aside.

I think learning game does help with abundance and "oh wow. I actually CAN get laid", which is useful especially if one has spent a lifetime alone and 'incel'. But though it does educate us on an instinctual level what behaviors women respond to, it is only a surface patch if it isn't paired with true outcome independence and a strong sense of self.

[–]JonathanMekerset1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

And the only way to do that is to make yourself high value

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Totally. I think the argument OP is making is that game alone is a poor substitute for that.

[–]DancesWithPugs2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

Not being able to discuss morality and how it relates to being a worthwhile man stifles the discussion. Yet you can talk about selfish manipulation and how great it is, as if that wasn't any kind of reflection of morals.

Masculinity is direct.

[–]Modredpillschool3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

In order to discuss morality, you must first agree whose morality we're dealing with.

TRP is a diverse crowd. You'd never get a consensus.

And if that didn't make it pointless enough, remember that "morality" is the rule book that was used to control our blue pill selves in the first place.

So I'd be wary even making an appeal to morality.

[–]DancesWithPugs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I get what you're saying.

Well RP advocates an amoral sexual strategy as your best long term chance at happiness. That is a value system. Saying it can't be criticized reminds me of other ideologies I gave up on.

Morality can be misused to control and manipulate. The same is true of most human activity.

[–]Modredpillschool2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well RP advocates an amoral sexual strategy as your best long term chance at happiness. That is a value system. Saying it can't be criticized reminds me of other ideologies I gave up on.

But I'm not saying that. You're more than welcome to criticize goals. In fact that's one of the reasons we have a MGTOW flair.

Recommending different strategies to realize different goals is perfectly on topic. Making an appeal to a larger morality or authority without reason is where it crosses the line.

For instance, I have no problem with religious people or atheists. But don't tell me not to spin plates because it's immoral. You know?

[–]UFO_mechanic_AMA0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

In order to discuss morality, you must first agree whose morality we're dealing with.

Just say you don’t want discussion, because you don’t.

[–]Modredpillschool2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just say you don't comprehend what I wrote, because you don't.

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'ts been explained over and over by patient individuals yet you're more intent on being triggered than understanding what is being conveyed.

he'd know that pick-up artistry doesn't actually fall in line, at all, with the "Red Pill.”

TRP has only ever recognized the effectiveness of the techniques but never claimed to endorse PUA as goal, it's simply critiquing JP's statements on them.

Pick-up is inherently for low-status men, against that which embraces the flourishing of the masculine, and counter-productive for those who are attempting to truly ascend the male dominance hierarchy.

PUA has never claimed to ascend an individual to the top of the male dominance hierarchy, it has only claimed to provide tools to help game a woman. I don't see how mastering these tools is counter productive for those attempting to ascend the male dominance hierarchy.

A real man engages his true mission up the male dominance hierarchy and focuses solely on himself and actualizing his plurapotentiality, narrowing a multitude of possibilities into one single frame of existence as he becomes who he truly is.

What's a REAL man? By who's standard? Who's definition?

Who he truly is? A man's existance is not stagnant. He can manipulate and change who he is to whatever he wants.

You're shying away from becoming who you can be, and attempting to circumvent the hierarchy by manipulating the highly-perceptive feminine into thinking that you are high status, when you're not.

PUA are not circumventing the the heirarchy. They're simply using tools to benefit themselves. It's a short term strategy. Not an attempt to rise to the top of the heirarchy.

And that never plays out well—for the male. No male will ever be truly sexually successful through a facade of status, memorized routines and lines, and a weak masculine foundation.

Never plays out well for the male? I think getting laid is playing out well for the male.

Essentially, you're cheating nature. There are no shortcuts to the top.

Who made you the nature police? You're saying there's a way things should be done and if you don't do it that way you're a cheat? There's no such thing as cheating nature. There's only understanding nature and manipulating it to work for you. I fail to see how obtaining tools to better your life is a bad thing. Just because it doesn't fall inline with your programmed standard?

we get men who are inherently low status, unattractive, and have no real value fucking women who think they are high-status, attractive, and capable of climbing the dominance hierarchy.

If a man presents the factors that women find attractive and THEY decide to fuck him how is that not real? He's presenting the tools that she finds attractive. Just the same as if you present yourself as a muscular man it increases you chances of getting laid. Perhaps you should put the burden on the poor little helpless female on vetting the people she spreads her legs for a little better.

PUA whole approach is exactly that picking up and fucking woman. A woman who doesn't fuck guys she just met will not fall for it. By your logic she's probably a low status female too then if she could just get picked up in a bar, so they deserve each other.

“Pick-up” is for low-status men.

I think all men use pick up in some form or another.

so they have to resort to displaying all the behaviors that a high status man naturally, outwardly manifests without being the high status man themselves.

Yes, they use the tools at their disposal to help get themselves laid, such terrible people.

Oh but if the alpha uses the tools at his disposal to get laid thats fine right? Only certain people are allowed to use the tools, and only Jordan Peterson can say who.

The "Red Pill" isn't about low status men trying to "pick up" women or manipulating them subconsciously (from both frames of reference, that is) into liking them. It's about becoming a truly high status man who lives for his own values and needs, naturally attracting women.

Precisely why the Red Pill doesn't prescribe PUA as a long term solution.

Jordan Peterson's statements doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bathwater.

No one is criticizing the person, only some of his ideas. And encouraged you to do the same.

He's studied, endlessly, the horrors Western civilization

So we should praise him for speaking out against Western civilization?

best-selling non-fiction book in the Western world at the moment

But we should also praise him because Western Civilization endorses him? Do you not see the paradox here?

Just because he knows certain things doesn't mean he has to speak about them in public. His "credibility" would be shot off the moment he mentions any real truths to society.

So he speaks out for men against common public opinion. But won't speak out truths that he secretly knows because of fear o public opinion? Are you listening to yourself?

You don't think Peterson knows exactly what women are attracted to?

Ya ok with his n-count of one. Im sure he's very experienced in this field.

Anyway, any more is just exhausting,and the more I read I also suspect this is a sneaky MOD trolling

Which in that case, fucking well done.

[–]Modredpillschool1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Anyway, any more is just exhausting,and the more I read I also suspect this is a sneaky MOD trolling

It isn't, but it is helping us root out the trolls.

+1 on your reply by the way.

[–]twdziki0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Great breakdown. TRP is a set of tools/knowledge. If you want to use it to support your agenda, fine. But do not claim that your agenda is inherently TRP, just because it contains elements of TRP theory (what OP does).

[–]German88354 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

What I don’t understand, is pickup any different from talking to a random girl on the street and asking for her number?

[–]NorthEasternNomad5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

"Pickup" insinuates the use of falsehood to pretend at high status/value. Its context.

There's nothing inherently wrong about picking up a girl while being who you are. It's the use of lies to pretend at being who you arent - using "pickup" lines/strategies to play at status you dont have - where it gets creepy.

[–]ssj4kevin4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding that TRP and JP are talking about different things. As far as I'm concerned TRP is and has always been about sexual strategy and ONLY about sexual strategy. Whatever discussion of 'self-improvement' has been as a step toward the goal of improved sexual outcome.

JP by and large discusses how he believes people ought to conduct themselves to live in a prosperous society. A lot of that message focuses on the individual and how that individual should seek to improve themselves, but since the ultimate goal is a prosperous society that individual is going to have to conduct themselves according to principles handed to them.

Somewhere along the line of TRP history the dominant view of what TRP is has switched from sexual strategy to this weird notion of 'self-improvement'. In a large percentage of threads on the sub I see people talk about how TRP is 'really, when it comes down it about becoming the best person you can' and I just think to myself 'when the hell did it become that?'. The only view under which TRP is about self-improvement is if your metric for self-improvement is sexual success and ONLY sexual success.

The concept of 'self-improvement' is going to have an ethical component to it no matter what. TRP is, as far as I am aware, entirely amoral so how could it even be about self-improvement? Even when TRP uses ethical language I've always interpreted that as a rhetorical tool as opposed to believing that it is endorsing any particular ethical perspective.

Anyway, since TRP and JP are not talking about the same things then obviously there are going to be major disagreements. TRP is amoral, JP is almost entirely morally normative. From my perspective this crazy feud over the last couple days is the result of a large portion of people on the sub believing mistakenly that TRP is about 'self-improvement' (whatever the hell that means). It's not. That's a lot closer to what JP talks about. So when someone comes out and disagrees with JP using colourful language a large number of readers take offense because they never understood this sub to begin with.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy

In essence, a real man is a MGTOW who gets laid when he wants and doesnt have to fake it. Ive seen man make women the center of their lives. They change the way they talk, they change their social media and even start working out just because of women. It might make you a better man in the long run but you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Stop thinking about women and go be successful and happy you fucking losers.

[–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

In essence, a real man is a MGTOW who gets laid when he wants and doesnt have to fake it.

Thanks /u/EdgarAllanPu . Everybody here was really getting impatient waiting for you to tell us what "a real man is".

[–]Phixioner7 points8 points  (9 children) | Copy

I agree that rehearsal of pick up methods and obsessively focusing on gaming girls implicates a lack of integrity and a weakness of character.

However, considering this sub has a lot of members, it is only realistic that the sub is turning out the way it is.

It's probably not going to get better so I think you are better off to just let go and move on.

Also why the need to defend Jordan Peterson?

[–]Rian_Stone10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy

Why does it have to be obsessive? An example, I learned M3 because dating was a slog, and it allowed me to gamify the experience, made it fun again. I had a 180 day sailing schedule, and no time to obsess about anything. I peacocked, but never with a hat.

So your post reads to me like a pejorative stereotype, based on never actually reading on pickup. Considering the amount of guys on here to min/max their avatars on [current video game here] I find these conversations are dancing around their actual issues, and using the ones you describe as a surrogate.

we always have two reasons for shit, the one we say, and the one we dont

Because one of our married users broke down the mystery method, and it reads nothing like your blathering

[–]Phixioner2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

I didn't intend to come across as pejorative of people choosing to devote their time to game girls, that is fine with me, and I am also 'guilty' in doing so myself.

What I meant by it signifying a lack of integrity and weakness of character is that gaming girls is reward seeking, also in many, if not most cases some type of over-compensation from a general feeling of inadequacy, in my opinion it is simply an escape from reality, that's all.

Honestly I don't know why I set myself up for a debate on this.

[–]Rian_Stone2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

It's fun.

So how exactly does your integrity take a hit. To whom?

How would you counter that guys covering up inadequacy by... being adequate is not a bad thing?

[–]Phixioner2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's not black and white. There are layers to inadequacy, an internalized sense of inadequacy is sub conscious. If you understand how repressed emotions work you will understand why using something outside yourself to compensate for a negative internalized emotion is fueling and reinforcing the sense of inadequacy that you are trying to escape in the first place.

[–]Rian_Stone1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah. And when that external compensation makes you angry, it motivates you to remove the source of the anger.

External motivation isn't better than discipline, but it's a great kick start to the process. What do you think Esthar Villas book and the invol incel post are the first two links on the sidebar for?

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy

Why do I feel the need to support a man who is working to re-integrate the archetypal masculine and patriarchal into society, who works to support the elevation of the individual against group ideology, and is one man against a flood of radically liberal and Marxist adherents to a slave morality? Hmm, I don't know.

[–]Rian_Stone4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Use your own words, you're parroting Peterson.

[–]Modredpillschool0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's probably not going to get better so I think you are better off to just let go and move on.

K bye.

[–]gbdoragnic1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

if you get what you want out of life, you are doing it right, if you aren't you're doing it wrong, operating on this simple terms how can PUA be for a weak man.

Your definition of weak is virtue signalling , if you truly understand weak or beta you wouldn't use that. No one wants to be weak or beta, it's considered a bad state.

> It's about becoming a truly high status man who lives for his own values and needs, naturally attracting women.

All ways are natural, everything you do is natural, it you did something unnatural as a human you would achieve special snow flake status what you want is trad con way of approaching women.

A simple way of looking at it is, "I want to learn social skills", the response of the red pill community is good for you, you're becoming high value, a real authentic person , however if you say, "I Want to learn social skills specifically to sleep with women", you will get blasted and told to focus on you.

I honestly don't know why the double standard, it's like some fake form of purity must go into the game, attracting women must be done indirectly, almost as if on accident as a result of some high valued life.

PUA at it's core teaches you aren't a special snow flake, but neither is anyone else, your version of TRP teaches, you can become a special snow flake(High value) and everyone will like you, honestly this version of the red pill is judgmental, egoistical and walking around thinking you are better.

Love is just a chemical reaction, The art in Pick up comes from you are making people feel real authentic emotions , like a musician or a painter

> And that never plays out well—for the male.

This is like saying weed is the gateway drug and makes you lazy, in that there is some truth to what you say, but you are as real as your intent, it plays out as well as I want it to. All I'm saying is I have to learn the hard way, not that I was being fake, just that I still have growing to do specifically with women and learning.

After a while, I get used to it, it becomes second nature, it's like doing a back flip, Experience is the best teacher, my relationships with women expanded my mind to the point where I'm being myself because I can't not do that.

[–]Bottled_Void1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This sub is essentially sexual strategy to getting laid and otherwise increasing your smv.

While Jordon Peterson says a lot of things I agree with, I'm not sure how much of it applies to this strategy.

You're free to pick and choose what you choose to do in your own life, but I think it's only fair the sub stays on topic.

[–]RedPlanetMan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ideological thinking is like a curse, bounding people and blinding them to the objective world and their subjective perceptions of it, and no one is really free of that mental conditioning. And with that said, PUArtistry is just one component in a much larger puzzle. To believe that any one thing, if sufficiently mastered, can get you laid with any girl is psychopathic. An interrogator that primarily, & only, relies on violence is a psychopath. Peterson is getting at the fact that a RP man is a well-rounded person, not someone whose built an identity on some manipulative tactic as a means of finding purpose/meaning.

As to the problem with Peterson, and not his ideas, the media has made him the foreperson of an alternate view/paradigm of the world, one which is very distinct perceptually from the currently propagated one, and because the current paradigm is always seen as the default (e.g., society is always at its most modern progressional possibility but everyone else, in the past especially, were cavemen), he is hated for being a rabble-rouser, easily crucified in a different age.

I think that those who don't try to understand his ideas, as opposed to their view of the person, it's like the female-hamster, doing everything it can to not see its true, self-deluding nature, IMO.

[–]roec011 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Jordan Peterson is someone you should listen to, you can form your own opinions afterwards.

[–]ghostofexistence0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Sage advice. I actually enjoy listening to him, like on Joe Rogan's podcast for example. He makes me think about certain things in new ways which is great. There are many times though where you can really tell he has no clue what he's talking about and displays symptoms of mental illness. It's also clear that most people criticizing him know absolutely nothing about him.

[–]CocaineOnYourClit1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

JP has some good stuff, he has some less good stuff, he has some absolutely shit. Use the good stuff, ignore the less good stuff, laugh at the absolute shit

[–]iknowthewhey1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Peterson’s the man giving a sermon out on the mountain to thousands of eager listeners, and those who criticize him are a bunch of insignificant sheep roaming out among the fields below. If you have a real contention, stop complaining and have some respect for yourself.

So you think criticizing someone's ideas makes you a sheep? I would argue that blindly following the JP ideas makes you a sheep, not the other way around. This sounds like an angry rant of someone who desperately needs to cling to the ideas of a man they follow without question.

You don't think Peterson knows exactly what women are attracted to? You don't think he knows exactly how bitter and resentful men are? You don't think he knows exactly how society is structured

You say he knows all these things yet he is just keeping these ideas to himself while simultaneously is on the side of men. This is inherently contradictory. How exactly is Jordan Peterson on the side of young men when he advocates marriage and wants young men to be BENEFACTORS of society? Society fucks me in the ass and I am supposed to contribute back to it? Marriage is dead. This is because it was a shit idea that DIDN'T WORK. Men wanting to fuck women isn't psychopathic, it is deeply rooted in our psyche.

You claim to be an advocate of the ideas of Nietzsche yet you also claim that Pickup and game are immoral. If you are claiming to be an advocate for the ideas of Nietzsche while you are forcing your morals onto others then you must not have any comprehension of the ideas that Nietzsche put forth. Nietzche It is extremely clear that you are confused about your inner values and cling to Jordan Peterson as your alpha and leader because you yourself cannot choose your own values. Yes, Jordan Peterson advocates some good ideas and helps young men. However, he lacks a true understanding of sexual strategy, which is the real main purpose of this sub.

DIRECTLY FROM BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL, FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE," The lofty independent spirituality, the will to stand alone, and even the cogent reason, are felt to be dangers, everything that elevates the individual above the herd, and is a source of fear to the neighbor, is henceforth called EVIL;" Sound familiar? Such as claiming pick-up and game to be immoral. Why should we conform to your views on the world and your definition of what a "real man" is?

Here is an amoral fact. Pick-up artistry is an amoral tool for sexual strategy. Criticizing PUA is serving the female imperative which has been clearly stated here yet you fail to comprehend that simple idea. Jordan Peterson does not serve the male imperative by claiming that PUA is sociopathic and he is not your friend.

[–]EscapeTheGoat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Red Pill is not societally constructive. We are not asking men to do anything to help society. When will you all learn.

[–]Rian_Stone6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy

Walk me through whats at the top of the dominance heirarchy?

and use your own words, dont' parrot what peterson transcript you see,

A real man engages his true mission up the male dominance hierarchy and focuses solely on himself and actualizing his plurapotentiality, narrowing a multitude of possibilities into one single frame of existence as he becomes who he truly is.

because this chomskybot bullshit is unintelligible.

and focuses solely on himself and actualizing his plurapotentiality [pluripotentiality having the ability to develop in any one of several different ways, or to affect more than one organ or tissue]

Funny aside, this reads a lot like becoming ones own 'masculine center' from Rollo, quoted 7 years earlier. The second part is exactly like femenists, borrowing CIS from medical literature, using it to describe white dudes.

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

Walk me through whats at the top of the dominance hierarchy?

Those who are the top of the male dominance hierarchy have acquired the necessary competence that allows them to ascend the greatest subset of all dominance hierarchies. In other words, those that are most likely to become evolutionarily successful in one subset of human existence. This could be in social dominance/social proof which proves popularity and value, or economic dominance based on intellect and competence, along with many more. Any dominance hierarchy which proves one's true status and competence over another man in maintaining survival and the ability to propagate an iterative game far into the future selects for the man with the most reproductive potential.

because this chomskybot bullshit is unintelligible.

It actually makes perfect sense.

Funny aside, this reads a lot like becoming ones own 'masculine center' from Rollo, quoted 7 years earlier. The second part is exactly like femenists, borrowing CIS from medical literature, using it to describe white dudes.

I have no idea what Rollo said seven years ago. And a term that has direct applicability to the flourishing of potential in humans can be used in a multiplicity of ways. It's called an analogy, I believe?

[–]Rian_Stone-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

You should know, it's the year one shit on the sidebar everyone is supposed to read.

Also, I find it funny how you talk about evolutionary success, and neglect to add fucking women into that... Pretty sure that's the only metric that counts, everything else is a means to an end.

It took a lot of words for you to lawyer speak the incel/mgtow argument, but it's well done. Forces people to have reading comprehension to call it out.

Most people here can't read.

RE RPS: Yup, 100%. I watched a smart guy speak and can parrot it, therefore I am a smart guy too!

the map is not the terrain

Like when we had a tour on the ship with a bunch of kids. One of the bosuns was talking about the 50 cal. the kid rifled off stats, talked about it like he was fucking one at home. Bosun asked him how often he uses his:

Well, I use it in Call of duty

"Heh, fuck off kid"

[–]Modredpillschool1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dude is using ten dollar words to hide that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[–]1redHussar7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Mods dont have a problem with JP. They have problem with people who don't think for themselves. Like you. You just defended JP because you invested so much into his idea. You are a follower and basically are not different then feminist or libtard. You just believe in different God. And that is a problem.

[–]Hailteni NaHalitenina3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't say people don't get it. This guy gets it.

+1

[–]satlinrabbow1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Look, anytime you have any kind of variation of" Tragic State of this Sub " in any comment or post you make, you AUTOMATICALLY lose any credibility you may have had, especially since you're saying it because people dont like your "hero" on this sub.

THEN you write a fucking wall of text on why we should like your hero.

Fuck You. I'm not reading all of that shit, and if the sub is in such a "Tragic State" why the Fuck are you still on it and writing books of bullshit no one is going to read? Well, besides the first two lines of your bullshit essay.

Sorry but you need to spend more time in the gym, and less time on the keyboard ffs.

No one Gives a fuck about YOUR heroes.

[–]do_you_even_liftbro 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

The way he framed this almost made it seem like Peterson has a cult-like fan base. Either you eat what he says as gospel, or you are a sheep. OP is a major clown.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

Peterson has a cult-like fan base

He does...

[–]EddTheEdducator1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

LOL all hell broke lose in this sub the moment someone decided to question Jordan Peterson. Never have i seen this thread so divided.

[–]zyqkvx0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

OP doesn't have masculine agency, or whatever you want to call it. He needs a leader to put forward to make king that will in turn give him his place. He gives himself away by the high degree he appeals to authority.

Jordan Peterson is a smart guy. He has serious limitations that other smart men historically faced. One, his lessons drift off to the abstract and never come back. Oh the beauty of abstract thought, the uselessness. Another fools game for a smart man is after he is given a platform, he keeps talking, and talking till he no longer knows what he is talking about. He is applying the subtle logics he's learned to everything that crosses his path, no matter how little he knows about it, all with the intention to open doors. In the end he is no less than babbling about things he knows nothing about. All because he got yet another invite to talk. Because surely a smart man should always accept yet another talk engagement, that could never be the wrong thing to do. The demand for a talk has already answered that question.

JP does not know shit about dating.

[–]Luckyluke230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Pick-up artistry doesn't actually fall in line, at all, with the "Red Pill.”

it doesn't... but on some level people please it's one and the same... like a branch offshoot. of redpill and vice-versa

Look. they way i see it is red pill is 95% of the pie and game is the extra 5% you need. I mean " status, Money and looks" can only get you so far. game is that cherry on top that can push you over the edge from banging, to NOT banging. if you are into red pill YOU SHOULD KNOW AND BE AWARE OF GAME. since coming to the red pill I don't go to the " pick up" subreddit at all.

but I know it's there and I know what it's about and how to use it. if you don't think anyone doing pick up doesn't self-actualize and become a better person then you are wrong. they are ALL some " fedora-wearing losers" some of them are cool guys.

This dogma that has been circulating the sub is drowning us all.

yeah we do need to think more about this.

You're shying away from becoming who you can be, and attempting to circumvent the hierarchy by manipulating the highly-perceptive feminine into thinking that you are high status, when you're not.

so what you are saying is, I don't get the girl until I'm " high status" well when will that be?

[–]omartrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I like to read a lot and I enjoy learning all the time, this is how I originally arrived at TRP subreddit. Ever since then I have found some great info on developing yourself as that was what I originally came for. Along the way I have also picked other info such as sexual game, frame, etc. which has been helpful to myself.

I also like a lot of what Jordan Peterson says and write, because its similar to the theory of TRP about being a better yourself and striving to raise your SVM, while its adequately researched and written.

I don't agree with everything that Jordan Peterson says, but neither do I agree with every single post here in TRP. In fact, the majority of the posts in TRP is of extremely low quality reminiscent of facebook posts. Most of the time simply anecdotes or experiences with no quality source backing them up or spitting what other more invested writers have said already in a more eloquent manner.

Incidentally, it is also this kind of low quality posters that bring down this subreddit, every time something is different from their frame of reference they either dismiss it, deny it or simply insult it. I'm aware they are quality posters willing to debate and argument different ideas, but the majority of them are not.

If anything it would be great if mods would lead by example and actually promote sane debate in this subreddit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

WWIII has broken out in this sub in thr last few weeks and perhaps it's time for instant nukes on posts that explicility or implicitly refer to JP for 1-2 weeks

If someone plays D&D or WoW day in and out but maintains a modicum of decent appearance and then once a week on Saturday afternoons patrols his local mall 'tricking' girls then yes that is an example of pick up/game/RSDs inherent failings and short comings (mind you this is an extreme example which I doubt actually occurs due to this person's stagnant brain and oversaturated dopamine receptors who would do a shit job at socialising as the reward from video games would be higher) anyway

Anecdotal, however

I was in shape, dressed well, was well spoken and very talkative, would go out, socially adjusted and normal, in my university program I'll have random 1st and 2nd and 3rd years stop me on a Saturday night and introduce themselves to me asking "hey aren't you 613wethegreatest?" While I had no idea who tf these kids were or how they knew me. People would tell me I was popular and well known but to me it never seemed like it internally. I've worked 3 relatively prestigious/numerous internships and have travelled the world and have insight on many subjects and life experiences.

People tell me I'm the glue of social circles and bring people together. Sure I was no business owner, University Athlete, or Faculty Club President/Leader, but I sure as fuck wasn't low value and had a higher than average social value. Yet I didn't lose my virginity until 19 when finally some girl cold approached me at a networking event and did all the dirty work for me.

I remained laidless for 6 months after that until another girl revealed her attraction to me and we smashed. Then laidless for another half year until once again a friend informed me her friend was into me during a night out and my inebriated self handled the rest.

I get stopped in the middle of concerts by guys and girls alike to tell me "damn, you hit the gym or what" get complimented on my sociability and people skills almost every day and hear relatively often that some girl found me super hot.

HOWEVER, I ALSO GET TOLD I LOOK INTIMIDATING AND AGGRESSIVE AS FUCK, something that I to this day do not see when I look in the mirror or through my introspection

As a result of this if it weren't for Pickup and RSD I'd still be the shy kid I was around girls and would be still getting laid 1-2x a year by sheer dumb luck and leaving my sexual life I'm the hands of direct girls who's ASD are non existent, effectively limiting my pool of sexual partners down to 1:50 and having zero control in it. I'm top 10-20% by looks easy and in my entire life I'd had only 3 girls be extremely sexually direct and explicit with me and that's because alcohol was involved on one level or another. Many more who I realise were flirting or hinting at it but if not for game/pickup/RSDs teachings of 'IOIs' I'd have no idea in retrospect.

If pickup and game and RSD becomes your life you're a tool bag, but use it as a tool for where you might be lacking and watch how much it'll change things for you.

Everyone needs to fuck right off with this bipolar black and white thinking towards RSD, towards Jordan Peterson, towards anything.

The entire fucking point is to think for yourself and find the middle ground in any subject. There's no such thing as right or wrong and the fact that people subscribed to TRP a subreddit with a demographic primarily over 21 who still think in a black and white manner as if they were children is actually pathetic.

Get a grip on the fact that NOTHING in this life is black or white, it never has been and never will be, you live in endless shades of grey and it's up to you to figure out which shade for each situation

Christ ffs

[–]Nergaal0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Just because he keeps his mouth shut so he can keep a living and not get death threats doesn't give you the right to start attacking him.

Why do people in THIS sub have a hard time understanding this?

[–]Modredpillschool0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I can't purport to know what's in his head. I can only judge him on what he says. And I disagree heartily with what he says.

[–]Nergaal0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

I can't purport to know what's in his head.

You give the impression that you didn't actually listen to anything he said, just read what others have said about it. If that is the case, you might want to check him out a bit. He is good with words, but IMO he gives out a bit more than his carefully chosen words.

[–]Modredpillschool-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

From the videos I've seen of him, he's very articulate and quite smart . However, his opinions of the sexual marketplace I think are just wrong.

[–]Nergaal0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

How is he wrong here:

https://youtu.be/RxZOkrgid40

[–]clearly-red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

In that video, Peterson is saying women choose males from top from DH(dominance hierarchy). So I should be waiting for females to select me. What I am supposed to do in meantime when I am not on top? Sound much like 'Soulmate Myth', somewhere there is the ONE, who will come in my life and we will make babies and live happily ever after.

How does broke artist living in van or shitty apartment get to fuck chicks? How does plumber fucks the wife when husband is off to work? How does random guy pick up executive's wife from bar or club? How these men are selected by females to have sex with, when they are not the top of DH?

DH only matter to BB. You can be top for your DH like Elon Musk and still be discarded later by very female that "selected" him.

Due to nature of female hypergamy. AF operates out of DH. AF gets to fuck lots of women and spin plates. It's his choice who he want to fuck out options he have created for himself or to settle down later to have kids.

Goal of Red Pill is to become Alpha not High Value Beta male.

Yes, you will still have to work to make money and participate in social game because you are social animal. That means participating in a Dominance Hierarchy. But you doing that for you survival's sake, not for a female to choose you one day.

Red pill is rejection of established system that includes dominance hierarchy(DH).

[–]IveRedditAllNight0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Peterson Saved my life.

That is all.

[–]Fulp_Piction0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He speaks a lot of truth, but he's contantly telling people what he thinks they ought to do with his information instead of laying out facts and allowing people to do what they want. Listen to him and Joe Rogan talk about hypergamy - he hates being pushed on it. It's either weakness in the media spotlight or blue pill ideology coming through, none of which I respect.

'Be a strong man so you can get married, raise a family etc'. is blue pill. 'Be a strong man so you can live life on your own terms and fuck anyone else' is, imo, red pill and something you'll never hear JP preach.

[–][deleted] 1 points  (1 child) | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]Casanova-Quinn0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Pick-up artistry doesn't actually fall in line, at all, with the "Red Pill.”

Yes it does, it's simply one tool in the toolbox. It's not everything, but it's not valueless. You seem to be against pick-up because you view it as "manipulation". If your pick-up game involves lying and deception, I'd agree. But it's not all just lying to get laid. For example, if you have game plan on what to talk about on date, that doesn't mean your lying about what you're talking about.

[–]crabshaped0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If JBP actually had the time to come in here and see how much we argue over what he said last month, he’d probably have a good laugh and tell us all to go outside and climb the hierarchy. And he would have a point there.

[–]plentyoffishes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I disagree with Peterson being pro-corporal punishment. A weak man uses violence as a form of discipline. There are far better ways to teach lessons than using your hand to swat a small human. This is a huge flaw in Peterson's philosophy and why I can't get behind what he says overall.

[–]Chitlinsandgravy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I posted a comment along these lines in another thread. It's definitely more appropriate here:

Don't put the Peterson, or anyone on a pedestal. You think he needs some random ass dude fighting battles he's most likely not interested for him in his name?

Imagine going to a book signing, or a symposium or lecture and behaving like this. You think your hero you're so valiantly defending is going to be grateful for the scene you've made?

No one likes a dick rider, especially those that create the dick.

[–]6-_-j0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

society is run on a set of dominance hierarchies

Competence hierarchies actually.

[–]Benasen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Honestly dude, as much as I like some of Peterson’s ideas he does ramble a lot. Lots of it is nonsensical, and he struggles to finish points and sentences. He thinks about how to formulate himself but it’s often at the expense of the viewers patience and when featured on shows, his hosts and co-parts.

For someone who in ways is really socially intelligent, he’s unbelievably socially incompetent.

[–]1swaglordobama0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Pickup is the test to see if you've actually improved as a man and become sex worthy. It is a pillar of TRP and much of the manipation tactics taught in TRP are oldschool dark-game techniques that exploit female psychology.

Let's not bash chumps for wanting to change their lives and get laid, please. We all started somewhere and this "holier than thou" attitude aint shit.

Without cold approach, you've done nothing but engage in mental masturbation. There is nothing quite like ego destruction to burn away your impurities.

[–]Shaman66240 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

JP sees sex as something carrying so much weight it shouldn't be done lightly. He's against one night stands, and he is probably against most of what RP stands for. I also believe a big part of the sidebar won't bring you a happy and fullfilling life. But there is a lot to be learned from this place also. And both sides has their core of truth.

Remember that human experience isn't as simple as the causal events propogating said experience. The human experience is an emergent property of lot's of things that we can analyse and where cause and effect are easy to distinguish. But the human experience itsself doesn't follow those rules. It can hold two totally conflicting ideas with them both being subjectively true. (think AF/BB). My point is that trp is not descriptive of the entire reality of being human. It's just a subculture geared towards giving men a foothold in the sexual marketplace. Our business isn't truth or making us 'true men' even though people like OP keep glossing the truth of this place over with terms like that. No the purpose of this place is to give men a chance to fullfill their sexual desires by giving them strategies without regard for morality. It's not noble. Everything goes and the 'Truth' in RP context is just a contextual truth which will get you laid and which works in the sexual marketplace: women don't grow up after their 18th year, don't trust women they are all the same. It's all beliefs that, when adapted, will take you to a certain brand of sexual fullfillment. Nothing wrong with that that's just what we're doing here so if you want to philosophize about truths that have other contexts just leave.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well this post is shit, RPS kind of tore it apart

[–]FreeHappyMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Dont you know that the more members join red pill the less red pill it gets. The hardcore red pill thats most truth in it gets attacked by blue pill people in here.

[–]funkysoulsearcher0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Anyone bagging out on peterson is a clueless fuck and a cry baby... total beta

[–]JonathanMekerset0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Difference between PUA and TRP is TRP says improve as a man to attract these women and maybe "fake it till you make it" while on the way up. It doesn't say just fake it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This post just proves you sophomoric ignorance, mate.

[–]PerplexingPegasus_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Seems like Peterson has become the new trigger warning word of the sub.

If you don’t agree with someone who doesn’t follow his doctrine, articulate your reasons why without parading your belief system onto others.

[–]justintruetho0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes I do not agree with everything Peterson has to say but one thing that’s fact is this, Jordan has single handedly contributed to helping men and saving masculinity more than all of us combined in the sub.

He’s not perfect, none of us are but he sure as hell helped a lot of people improve their lives and that is something we should always acknowledge.

[–]mushroom_overlord0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Jordan Peterson has important things to say. Some of those things, even the most blackpilled user should consider.

JP is a very intelligent and skilled psychologist who identifies how important it is that people work toward a valued goal, and how even in the most dire situations, there is a duality of sorts; there is always something you could do to make it worse (that you shouldn't do) and something you could do to make it better (that you should do). However, one of his pitfalls is that he has to mix in religious mystical quackery, where the good thing has to be "heaven" and the bad thing has to be "hell."

The Jungian mysticism doesn't help either, or his refusal to truly admit what his beliefs are about god.

Jordan Peterson is just a man. A smart man, sure. But there are smart people on every side, so pretending no one is on his level is not going to help.

All you do in your post is parrot what JP says about dominance hierarchies. You say you'll "explain" why JP is right and we are all fuckheads driving the world to mass extinction, but you just fucking don't.

Formulating Jordan's talking points in your own words like a high school paper does nothing to "explain" the problems with pickup (with which there are problems, but not the ones you point out).

You say he should be scrutinized, but instead of pointing out where we are wrong you in fact mischaracterize critics of JP by not saying anything of substance and instead saying the opposition is just misrepresenting him, while you of course have to misrepresent them instead of make a decent point.

[–]TheBigLman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Ya'll mother fuckers think way too much ayyyy LMAO.

[–]trp_nofap_rewire20180 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I liked this post just as much as I liked the other one bashing JP in a healthy way (through rationalized debate).

No one got it all figured out, although the man has some good points. The key point is that in the RP context most opinions should be valid because here is a safe and appropriate place to discuss ideas that doesn’t fit in the Matrix scheme. Nobody knows everything, it’s all debatable, and we should be okay with criticism or differing opinions.

People need to chill down, that’s all

[–]modTheRedPike[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

No one got it all figured out,

Ok, yeah, I know I'm still figuring it out, but this was a shitty concern troll. As I have been saying all along, there are lots of ways to disagree. I gave actual examples of it in this very thread. This is pretty much the worst way to do it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Welcome to the age of click-bait.

I would assume that, much like Tumblrinas, a lot of these TRP "higher-ups" are just trying to remain relevant and grab attention. They know they can't even come close, as subversive bloggers, to competing with the types of guys who belong to the "Intellectual Dark Web" so they're doubling down by making themselves seem like a distinct and vitriolic alternative to the mainstream.

"Damn, my Melodic-Death-Core band didn't make it, and there's lots of others who are better! Well fuck that shit; it's not real Death-Metal anyhow. Anyone who's not a beta fag cuck shill for the establishment knows that Ultra-FuckYourUncle-Grindcore is the real deal!"

[–]iamtheswoop0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Peterson is a mix if the most intelligent and least Intelligent in one person. His discussion with Matt Dillahunty was a shitshow

[–]CaptainBW0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

The Sidebar and “Rational Male” by Rollo. TRP 101. This sub has still has good comments and posts from time to time, but I’ve noticed the ever growing trend in comment replies revolve around finding that Unicorn, making her a wife, etc. “blue pill alphas” the lot of you. Enjoy the decline. There isn’t even a decline, actually. Women have always been slutty and they’ll never stop being it. Wake up.

[–]modTheRedPike0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

comment replies revolve around finding that Unicorn

Comments are one thing. People get to disagree (I think you'll find we are on the same page here) even if they just don't get it yet. However if you find a post like that, PLEASE hit the report button.

[–]Gearski-2 points-1 points  (10 children) | Copy

I like a lot of JBP's stuff, but his opinion on MGTOW kind of bothers me, if I recall correctly he refers to them as "pathetic little weasels".

[–]TheMrk79010 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy

They are. They flee the battle instead of fighting for a good realtionship. Its all bitterness and just sad to look at. Nothing positive about it.

I always get a scense of kids making a scene, when I see posts about MGTOW.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy

They flee the battle instead of fighting for a good realtionship.

What makes a good relationship? The point of MGTOW is men going their own way. Maybe a "good relationship" is not in their interest, maybe they just want to fuck females and .. go their own way.

[–]TheMrk790-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yep... That is just the easy way out of responibility and care. It's the coward's way. You don't need to join a community for that. But MGTOW is not a group of men, that don't have interest in a relationship. It's a group of men, that made bad experiences. MGTOW is not a different mindset, but a response to the world. And this response is pretty cowardly.

P. S. I hope the point gets through, since this I Am not native.

[–]rektHav0k3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

He’s recently apologized for that. His first introduction to MGTOW was to the incel portion of it. He more recently came about when he learned that some men are choosing that route willingly, due to their disgust with our gynocentric society.

[–]planned_serendipity11 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, he backed down from that in subsequent videos though. I think he realized that he came down too hard on them. I am completely satisfied with him and his outlook on life. He is probably a little to trad-con for most people in this sub but he is solidly on the side of men. The thing I like about him the most is that he is adamantly opposed to feminism and cultural marxism. He lambastes the universities for becoming cesspools of cultural marxism, which is why he is so vilified in so many articles.

Anybody who can so successfully spearhead an insurrection against the feminists while at the same time being a level headed advocate for the success of men is a hero in my book.

[–]Rian_Stone1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

because he got the same bullshit we get in here for doing that same thing. Only difference is, he can't ban his patreon subscribers

[–]Newtothiz-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thats the problem with the internet.Everyone can take anything out of context.Personally I think that mgtows are in fact,pathetic weasels.But anyway, he did say that he regrets calling them that, search on youtube : Jordan Peterson- I regret calling MGTOW pathetic weasels. I mean,you know,its not like someone who has over 500 hours of content can ever change his opinion on something, right?

[–]FrankCostanza1110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My Jordan Peterson drinking game:

take a shot anytime he mentions the number of deaths under Stalin

Take a shot anytime he mentions the Gulag or Nazi Germany

Take a shot anytime he plugs one of his books

Take a shot anytime his voice cracks

take a shot anytime he says “bloody”

[–]swordshab-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

Jordan Peterson’s a cuck

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Peterson isn't even worth defending, his conclusions are skewed because he has rejected possibilities at face value.

[–]JonathanMekerset-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agree. I can never respect someone who doesn’t take the time to fully understand something before rejecting it.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro-6 points-5 points  (6 children) | Copy

Mods are going to show you the male dominance hierarchy soon

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy

Is this not what redpillschool was advocating? Critical thinking?

[–]Endorsed ContributorJamesSkepp7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yes, he was. The problem is, the OP is basically JBP copy/paste.

[–]nietzschethegreat 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

I'm openly willing to debate and discuss ideas with everyone. Free, open, civil discourse. You're welcome to voice your complaints.

[–]modTheRedPike[M] -4 points-3 points  (0 children) | Copy

There's a been a whole charade of backlash and relentless vitriol against Jordan Peterson by a ton of members on this sub recently.

^ OPs idea of critical thinking.

[–]Rakosnik-5 points-4 points  (0 children) | Copy

who the fuck this PJ guy is anyway? so you defending someone who wants to sooo help me to get to the top? cumon dude. hilarious.

it does seem you are not able to use your own words. so on one side you bitch about guys gaming and using temembered lines yet on the other you’re using memorized arguments of this PJ guy i never heard of. damn i must be the bottom dweler then.

[–]zephixleer-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, so I just stopped reading most posts here. These "field report" and "theory" posts are generally just guys trying to fuck the most women.

Being a man, being red pill... it's about more than sex. In fact, casual sex can get you into more bad situations than any one woman can.

Making goals, self-improvement, planning for a future, inproving your financial health, and providing for your family are all admirable traits that this sub rarely discusses at length. I see about 20 "how to fuck girls" posts for every 1 legitimate, inspiring, or mens-rights related post on here.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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