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How to deal with irreconcilable differences of opinion on very serious issues

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May 12, 2020
17 upvotes

At the launch of my drunk captain phase, my wife had a potentially serious medical complication during her pregnancy, and she wanted to use a course of treatment that I thought was too risky and I was strongly opposed to. I insisted that she not go through with it, but she decided to anyways, and basically said 'fuck you, it's my body.' For purposes of this question, assume we are both professionals qualified to have a strong opinion in this area. I felt helpless and angry that my wife and child were being endangered, and there was nothing I could do- I had zero input.

I laid out the scientific evidence and argued hard, but never supported her emotionally. I realize that I was aggressive, and fragile when I should have been empathetically assertive. Also, it is her body, and I really didn't have any rights here culturally or legally, despite being the father. But is there anything I am missing about how I could have handled this type of situation better? I feel like the same dynamic keeps playing out in my life, and I keep making the same mistakes.


Post Information
Title How to deal with irreconcilable differences of opinion on very serious issues
Author DrBeaufort
Upvotes 17
Comments 37
Date 12 May 2020 09:02 PM UTC (6 months ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/663958
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/gikco3/how_to_deal_with_irreconcilable_differences_of/
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Comments

[–]BobbyPeruRed Beret17 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy

Damn just say what procedure she fucking had... I’d be willing to bet it’s debatable that it’s bad for her and dangerous to the baby. I’m not going to argue the point either way because I don’t know enough about it, but if it’s an epidural, that’s definitely a pro/con decision.

Here’s my official advice: Let it go faggot

Or

You can take the cop out and call it irreconcilable differences, which translates to you having a hissy fit because you didn’t get your way.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red35 points36 points  (3 children) | Copy

Stop being a faggot and they will stop aborting your unborn kids.

[–]HornsOfApathyMod / Red Beret11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

Fuck bro. Lol. Cut right to it... sucked the life right out of me.

[–]RedPillGlasses4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Holy fuck. Now I’m glad I came back here just to see red trash that guy.

[–]so_woke_da_wookie1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Savage.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill15 points16 points  (6 children) | Copy

I insisted that she not go through with it, but she decided to anyways,

I laid out the scientific evidence and argued hard, but never supported her emotionally

I felt helpless and angry that my wife and child were being endangered, and there was nothing I could do- I had zero input.

You failed in leadership. You failed to explain the mission to the crew and the crew revolted and took its own direction. Then while the crew was in active revolt you tried to Explain and Rationalize away why you felt you were right (of the DEER kind).

The thing is your leadership never demonstrated to the crew that this was a waterline event.

Your crew is threatening to blow a hole in the side of the ship and instead of warning of the dire consequences that will come of it, you were talking about what could go wrong, not what the consequences of that going wrong would be.

Here's the right conversation, from the waterline perspective

"If the worst goes wrong what happens?"

Wife gives facts on the outcome

"Do you think that would endanger our marriage?"

"I don't know"

"If something happened to you, or the baby, I could not continue in this marriage. You're free to make your own choice, but I want you to understand what my choices are and what I'm willing to live with"

See that? I outline the consequences of a waterline event.

In order to lead, you need to take ownership of your decisions. You never owned them. Instead, you tried to make her, in what was probably a highly emotionally charged state, rationalize her decision, and consequently own that decision. Be calm, answer her feelings with your own rationalized feelings. Be clear in the outcome of her decision.

[–]Over60_FireTempered3Red Beret5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

OP, what he said ^ ^

Pay attention. This is the best advice your gonna get here.

[–]hack3geRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

The issue is he isn’t willing to walk away and you can’t have boundaries otherwise - that’s always the issue....

[–]Protocol_Apollo0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Isn’t this a kind of ultimatum?

And isn’t the better way to use the waterline perspective is to ask her something like:

“Could you live with the harmful effects of taking said drug? Truly?”

I may have missed something in your comment so any further elaboration would be appreciated.

Especially this:

In order to lead, you need to take ownership of your decisions. You never owned them. Instead, you tried to make her, in what was probably a highly emotionally charged state, rationalize her decision, and consequently own that decision. Be calm, answer her feelings with your own rationalized feelings. Be clear in the outcome of her decision.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Sure it is. It's an ultimatum that confers choice. It's also an ultimatum that sets a clear boundary and defines the consequences of crossing that boundary.

"You are free to do, Xyz, and here's what I will do if you do xyz"

Our hero was wishy-washy in his line in the sand. He tried to weasel his way around it instead of owning his actions in her behavior. He was trying to change her thinking, when she had already made her mind up.

I felt helpless and angry that my wife and child were being endangered, and there was nothing I could do- I had zero input.

See here? He did have a tool in his pocket. His time and commitment and he failed to realize it.

[–]Protocol_Apollo0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

But I thought ultimatums are a no? (at least on the main sub)

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Why would they be? Rule zero is paramount.

Context is key here. You can do any kind of ultimatum you want, but understand there will be different results for different ultimatums.

Give me a specific example.

[–]Lieutenant_ColdCall5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

“It’s my body.”

“And when shit hits the fan, it’s my problem. There are better options that get the same outcome. You’re not doing it.”

“Yes I am, blah blah blah.”

STFU

Hold frame.

A few days later . . .

“Baby, I’ve been thinking about our conversation the other day. I know you don’t like it but listen to me, I want to still do the (thing that endangers our child).”

“I understand. You want to do it because of x, right?”

“Right.”

“What are the possible implications of the procedure?”

“Blah blah blah.”

“I understand. Doing that is going to put xyz in danger and the consequences could be this. You’re an adult, your body your choice. But if something were to happen to our child, I couldn’t be a part of that. I couldn’t stay with a wife who had made that decision. Do you understand?”

“Some response.”

STFU.

Suggest alternative that is positive for both parties if you have one or just wait out the storm.

You’re letting her out logic you with her emotion.

“My body my choice.” Is not a real response. It’s emotional.

If something happened to her body it would fall on you to Help her through it from the moment you got married. Otherwise you both may as well be single.

It’s only her body in the very literal sense not the consequential sense.

Don’t get sucked into her emotional logic

[–]ancient_resistanceShit coming out my eyeballs9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

I laid out the scientific evidence and argued hard

Huh, surprised that didn't work.

there was nothing I could do

Accept and internalize that.

[–]An_Actual_Politician6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think I'll logically lay out all the reasons why my kid should go to bed. I know I'm right so if I just manage to talk some sense into her then she'll understand.

[–]ancient_resistanceShit coming out my eyeballs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Solid plan

[–]Praexology4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

She trusts her judgement better than yours, why would she listen to you?

How to make it go your way more often? Have better judgement. Don't argue with her, let her stick her foot in the beartrap.

Obviously your situation is an extreme one, but is the hyperbolic example of OI - "I can't literally make you do anything, but if you're going to kill yourself (and unfortunately likely my unborn child because I'm not sure about the legality of protecting it.) Unless it's overt enough that I can take away your rights through the court system, Then I can't stop you."

[–]johneyapocalypseThe one that says "Bad Motherfucker"8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck you, it's her body.

[–]Red-Curious1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

At the launch of my drunk captain phase

Okay, so this isn't a current situation.

I feel like the same dynamic keeps playing out in my life, and I keep making the same mistakes.

Why not tell us about the current mistakes? Don't get so hung up on how you handled something in the past that you can't change. Ask about the current problems and how you're handling them now that you should know better.

[–]so_woke_da_wookie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Okay, so this isn't a current situation.

Great catch.

[–]theunconquored3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're asking the wrong question. It's not

"how do I handle this dynamic when it happens?"

Its:

"How do I change the dynamic?"

If she sees you as attractive and high value, she will submit to you in any situation. The limit of your attractiveness is the limit of how far she will go to please you.

If you had done the work to develop the value, the argument wouldn't have even happened. She would have turned to you to ask you what you'd like her to do. Clearly, you're not there.

But you can be. You need to stop thinking like this is a goal that you can complete. This is a lifelong process of improvement.

[–]so_woke_da_wookie1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Realize that your wife will do exactly what she wants to do, even if it’s irrational and your entire world hinges on it.

Hint: becoming an Evangelist for Stoicism isn’t the answer. Ryan Holiday already has that job.

[–]Chump_No_More1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Issuing an ultimatum in a situation were you know you have no control is a sign of extreme weakness. Each time you do this, the damage is irreparable and your relationship dies a death of a thousand cuts, because of YOUR weakness of character.

The only thing you can control is the rationality of your response, your immediate boundaries, and what behavior you will (or will not) tolerate over the long term.

Bear in mind, this strategy of having boundaries in every aspect of your life requires a mastery of self, mindset of abundance, and a maintenance of you as your Mental Point of Origin that you do not possess.

This is why your gut tells you you're failing... and it's not wrong.

Life is all about what you choose and what you allow. Sounds like it's time for you to chose a new path that works for YOU.

[–]BostonBrakeJob[🍰] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

Only thing I see missing is acceptance that it was a decision that was out of your control.

You may have been able to sway her decision if you supported her emotionally, whatever that means. But it sounds like it's water under the bridge.

If it's make or break boundries or situations, the only play is ruthless dictator. And that's still no guarantee. If the person across from you does what they want anyway, your willingness to leave is all that's left. Your choice to use it or not.

[–]DrBeaufort[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I decided to go the ruthless dictator route, and it didn't work. It only has any teeth if backed up by a real willingness to leave, which I didn't have, and here I am still here years later...

You're absolutely right that this is a clear example of the stoic idea of things I absolutely can't control.

[–]BostonBrakeJob[🍰] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Mix some of Machiavelli's stuff into your reading....if your moral compass is cool with manipulating people, anyway. I know there's a certain level of cringe attached to that word, but all I'll say for now is it doesn't have to be. DM's are open if you want to dive into this more

...but only after you internalize this:

You're absolutely right that this is a clear example of the stoic idea of things I absolutely can't control.

This is the real takeaway.

[–]RedPillGlasses3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

I’m a big fan of manipulating women.

It’s even better when they realize you’re doing it, and they hamster their way out of it. It’s one of the few times the hamster works in your favor.

[–]BostonBrakeJob[🍰] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

The art is in making them think it was their idea

[–]WeightsNCheatDates0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

supported her emotionally, whatever that means.

I think it’s like being a tampon.

[–]so_woke_da_wookie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's sounds like your suggesting that we need to have our own frame, be aware of context and calibrate decisions that move us towards greater personal agency.

This is way too hard.

[–]yes_kid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is a great post.

[–]psychoduckly0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think you were being a right cunt. This treatment is not what the two of you were going to do together-it is her that is going to have to go through it. "My woman and my child". Fuck you, it is her herself and her child. This isnt some feminist throwing down the gauntlet, it is another human dealing with her health and being confronted with her mortality.

If whatever she does decide is the wrong choice and her health turns to shit, YOU can walk away and get all the pussy you want. She'll be barren, in a wheelchair, dead. She needs the right answer, not some Alpha swingng his dick around being stoic, with A&A, NMMNG, OI, Push pull, frame, or fuck all. If I were one of her menfolk, I'd pistol whip you for contaminating our bloodline with the cringe that oozes off of you.

Youre either still in your drunk captain stage, or else in the Captain Queeg stage. I cant diagnose what you need to do to get fixed, but it looks as if it is neded hard and fast.

[–]wkndatbernardus0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Best way to deal with these differences is to sniff them out BEFORE getting hitched. In other words, vet like a dude playing Russian roulette with a gun pointed at his ball sack (which is what marriage is). You reap what you sow and you clearly didn't sow thoughtful hypotheticals to your bride before the wedding.

[–]DrBeaufort[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm not sure how this would have worked out. I could have chosen a wife not smart or strong enough to have a firm opinion on serious medical issues, which to me would be more like having a dog than a partner- and I already have a dog. Or I could have chosen a wife that thinks identically to me on all issues, in which case I'd be marrying myself. No, I think I vetted correctly by choosing a smart wife that can think through difficult challenges, but handled this situation like shit with terrible leadership.

[–]so_woke_da_wookie0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I get your point. However, your comment is way after the fact.

[–]psychoduckly0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Uhhh...the whole thread is a after the fact. Like months/years, per OP.

[–]FoxShitNasty830 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can only control yourself, give less fucks about others.

You can try and influence them (how to win friends and influence people) or steer them in the right direction but it's not up to you. You sound controlling. What other areas of life cause you issues, can you give examples?



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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