How should Christian men seeking to marry respond to women guilty of fornication claiming that males using porn is the same thing?

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May 31, 2020
3 upvotes

The biblical claim used for this is Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

For me it's clear we should love all sinners with the same grace Christ shows us, but with marriage everyone has the right to set their own standard. Don't get me wrong if no one meets it that's on you. However after seeing two post on r/TrueChristian where a guy wants to marry a virgin got trashed it caused me to wonder. How should guy's respond to women that might say you watching porn 10 times is the same as them sleeping with 10 guy's or even you watching porn 100 times is the same as them clubbing with a body count of 100.

It might be said a counter to this verse being applied to a marriage situation is 1 John 3:15 "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

No one would shame a Christian for not marrying a person that committed murder despite the fact every single one of us has hated a person before. Yet it's become acceptable to shame for wanting a person that made some effort to follow God's commands even if they aren't truly sexually pure by masturbation or porn. Getting to my point not fornicating is much easier than not lusting to images. You can just flee whenever close to a person you might bang, but when your mind is burning it matters not where you go. You can't chop off your own head without dying and so fleeing in the flesh at best means cutting off your hands plus removing your eyes. A much higher bar to clear than just walking away. Because of this I feel it's illogical to compare the two act's being always directly equal.

This whole ordeal also made me wonder about guy's that have used escorts and hookers. By this standard of men accepting non virgin women due to having used porn should women with sexual history be shamed into accepting men that used hookers? How should Christian women deal with guy's that have traveled overseas to pay for sex and then repented of it?

Stats for the rules: Height: 6'1'' Weight: 181 Age: Mid 20's


Post Information
Title How should Christian men seeking to marry respond to women guilty of fornication claiming that males using porn is the same thing?
Author Torn4_025
Upvotes 3
Comments 26
Date 31 May 2020 11:34 AM UTC (10 months ago)
Subreddit askRPC
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/669717
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askRPC/comments/gtxk58/how_should_christian_men_seeking_to_marry_respond/
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[–]Deep_Strength8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy

Recently wrote a post on the topic of having preferences.

https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2020/05/24/unshameable/

Accepting fellow Christians and treating them rightly is not the same as having preferences in marriage. You can have any preference you want.

If you are a non-virgin and want a virgin then go for it. It's not hypocrisy as long as you are chaste. Hypocrisy a la Matthew 7 is specifically doing one thing (continually and concurrently) and saying another. Taking the plank out of your own eye (being chaste until marriage even if you had sex previously) and then coming to your brother to help him with his mote is what Jesus was teaching.

Just know that people will try to judge and shame you anyway because they don't understand the Scriptures nor can separate it's a different thing from being a fellow Christian and to have preferences for marriage.

In general, I think Christian men should have both a preference for chastity then virginity in that order.

Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

As has been said before, this verse is clear about coveting a wife/woman that isn't yours. You can't commit adultery with porn. It connects to Romans 7 and the 10 commandments, which is what Jesus is referring to when He is talking about "It was said in times of old..."

Obviously, porn is still not something you want to do and even if a woman is single you can still make her an idol/ONEitis which are bad things. But that's not what the verse is about.

[–]Torn4_025[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

If you are a non-virgin and want a virgin then go for it. It's not hypocrisy as long as you are chaste.

I made this thread because I thought how other Christians reacted to this entire question was unexpected. I should have fully expected it, but where I have gone to church no one has yet been shamed for saying a virgin is what they want.

Just know that people will try to judge and shame you anyway because they don't understand the Scriptures nor can separate it's a different thing from being a fellow Christian and to have preferences for marriage.

I don't really intend to be open about my preference's since there is no point in giving ammo to others.

In general, I think Christian men should have both a preference for chastity then virginity in that order.

This is what I think as well.

[–]Deep_Strength2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

but where I have gone to church no one has yet been shamed for saying a virgin is what they want.

Harder to shame someone in person, even if they think that.

I don't really intend to be open about my preference's since there is no point in giving ammo to others.

Yup, if you are comfortable with who you are and your own preferences there's no need to tell others.

If I told others I don't like tattoos then tons of Christians who have them would get mad. I don't particularly care if they got mad at my preference, but what's the point putting a stumbling block in front of others. Just don't marry someone who has tattoos and problem solved.

[–]IsAllThisReal3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Imagine caring about what a woman thinks of you, or asking a subreddit if your preferences are OK to have.

[–]Torn4_025[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I was thinking more on a biblical mindset than a sucking up to women mindset, but I can tell now how this post comes across that way.

[–]Red-Curious2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Matthew 5:28 says a man is guilty of adultery in his heart if he lusts inappropriately. It DOESN'T say that all the other negative impacts of fornication are also imputed to him. So, watching porn and riding the CC are like apples and oranges. They're simply not the same and should not be placed on the same level.

Now, if a girl actually researches the effects of pornography and fornication and how they are distinct from one another, and concludes, "I've slept around, so I'll take a guy who sleeps around, but not one who watches porn," then go for it. But to equate porn with actual fornication is not appropriate.

[–]Johnny-Thunderfrost5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

The law of God says that if on her wedding night it is discovered, by way of no evidence of virginity, that a woman had premarital sex she is commanded to be stoned. There’s no way you could ever tell if someone watched porn unless you caught them. Everyone commits adultery in their heart, God said this in the Old Testament too with “you shall not covet (lust) your neighbors wife”. Porn and lust is evil, and absolutely is a path to destruction and deeper levels of perversion, but it is not worthy of the death penalty on a civil level in God’s eyes.

[–]ENTPunisher4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is the correct hot take, with the big asterisk that this only applies when she was presented as a virgin.

[–]Praexology1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Sin is sin is sin.

Without statistical studies it'd be hard to make a counterarguement saying that high n-counts relates to higher relational dissatisfaction moreso than high porn consumption.

Finally, why do you feel so compelled to argue one side or another? If they want to disagree - let them! No skin of your bones.

[–]sywonsmumu1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Rejecting someone of their past can hurt people’s feelings. That’s why I think people try to equate their consequences. Either way if you’re going to spend the rest of your life with someone you probably want it to be more pleasant. Look for more good than bad.

How should Christian women deal with guy's that have traveled overseas to pay for sex and then repented of it?

God has already dealt with it. For me, it’s only what can I overlook or what do I consider to be a red flag for a stable marriage. It’s just preferences and there’s nothing wrong with having them, or having preferences that follow God’s commands. Don’t sweat it.

[–]PRW630 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy

Christian men seeking to marry

What exactly it that? If the guy isn't even engaged,...or close to it,...he isn't a "man seeking to marry" yet. He is just a guy hoping to get a date.

This sounds to me like a little bit BPC (Black Pill Christian).

if they aren't truly sexually pure by masturbation or porn

This is full of Legalism which gets you no where.
This idea of having to confess "all" to a woman you are seeing (now, even your past "thoughts" apearantly?) is a Blue Pill idea,...it submits you to her,...gives her the power and leverage over you. Do you seriously think she hasn't had "evil" thoughts as well?,..."Lusted" after the Hawt Guy??? Why is she exempt from the same? And if she isn't exempt that what useful purpose is both of you spilling you guts about both of your darkest thoughts in your minds? It is disturbing that people actually think that is a good thing and is productive.

How should guy's respond to women that might say you watching porn 10 times is the same as them sleeping with 10 guy's or even you watching porn 100 times is the same as them clubbing with a body count of 100.

How is she even going to know that?? When a woman is just a date, your past, particularly your private thoughts is none of her business. Even later in a relationship the idea that both of you puking up your darkest past flaws to each other is going to make you fall in love deeper, respect each other more, and just "can't wait" to marry each other,... is total non-sense.

The past is the past, today is today,...move forward into tomorrow and keep your mouths shut about the past things.

[–]Torn4_025[S] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy

What exactly it that? If the guy isn't even engaged,...or close to it,...he isn't a "man seeking to marry" yet. He is just a guy hoping to get a date.

This sounds to me like a little bit BPC (Black Pill Christian).

Bible makes the issue clear. Burn with lust go find a chick to marry. Don't burn with lust then it's not worth the squeeze. Don't really care what kind of pill you think that is.

This is full of Legalism which gets you no where.
This idea of having to confess "all" to a woman you are seeing (now, even your past "thoughts" apearantly?) is a Blue Pill idea,...it submits you to her,...gives her the power and leverage over you. Do you seriously think she hasn't had "evil" thoughts as well?,..."Lusted" after the Hawt Guy??? Why is she exempt from the same? And if she isn't exempt that what useful purpose is both of you spilling you guts about both of your darkest thoughts in your minds? It is disturbing that people actually think that is a good thing and is productive.

Women assume men are on porn and might feel the need to bring the whole sexual history topic up.

Even later in a relationship the idea that both of you puking up your darkest past flaws to each other is going to make you fall in love deeper, respect each other more, and just "can't wait" to marry each other,... is total non-sense.

It's why I mostly thought romance is repulsive.

The past is the past, today is today,...move forward into tomorrow and keep your mouths shut about the past things.

Is that really so wise? The past can matter sometimes you know.

[–]PRW630 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

It's why I mostly thought romance is repulsive.

That is a Black Pill viewpoint.

Women assume men are on porn and might feel the need to bring the whole sexual history topic up.

That's their problem. They think differently about it when the guy wants to do the same,...wants her accurate "notch-count", and all of her sexual history. The guy needs to tell her, "You brought it up,...you go first".

[–]Torn4_025[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

That is a Black Pill viewpoint.

So if I'm into romance that is blue pilled, but if I just lust over sex and find romance lacking I'm black pill. Whatever dude, I'm only into marriage because of what the bible says of burning with lust.

That's their problem. They think differently about it when the guy wants to do the same,...wants her accurate "notch-count", and all of her sexual history. The guy needs to tell her, "You brought it up,...you go first".

Women easily lie about that stuff. Ton's of "that one mistake" girls are 10,20 or even 30 notches. It's not that much harder for them to lie about being virgins. A woman could just say they have a N count of 3,2 or 1 and then say because odds are I watched porn that it's far worse than a "few mistakes". Being Christian I thought knowing what to say here could be important, but it turns women on more when you simply don't care. So in the end that doesn't even matter if they want in and if they don't then good since no more time is wasted.

[–]PRW630 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

So if I'm into romance that is blue pilled, but if I just lust over sex and find romance lacking I'm black pill. Whatever dude, I'm only into marriage because of what the bible says of burning with lust.

Never said that. You're putting words in my mouth. I said what I said and didn't say what I didn't say. I'm pointing out thoughts, not people. You've stated some Blue Pill thoughts, Black Pill thoughts, and Red Pill thoughts...I'm doing nothing more than pointing them out. You came here to organize and get an opinion on your thoughts,...so that is what I give you. You can never get your thoughts and ideas into order if you can't properly identify and categorize them (or lash out at people trying to help you do that).

Blue Pill is...., not leading, deferring to women as the leader, buying into feminism, "SIMPing, etc. Most "pop culture" romance ideology is BP,...but real romance itself is not.

Black Pill is...., doom and gloom, everything is a waste of time, romance sucks, should never marry, all negativity and no hope.

Women easily lie about that stuff. Ton's of "that one mistake" girls are 10,20 or even 30 notches. It's not that much harder for them to lie about being virgins. A woman could just say they have a N count of 3,2 or 1 and then say because odds are I watched porn that it's far worse than a "few mistakes". Being Christian I thought knowing what to say here could be important, but it turns women on more when you simply don't care. So in the end that doesn't even matter if they want in and if they don't then good since no more time is wasted.

Exactly. We agree 100% there. BTW, this is Red Pill thought.

Red Pill is simply acknowledging reality for what it is. Neither doom & gloom (Black Pill) nor pie in the sky. Just a well balanced acknowledgment of reality. It also includes the rejection of feminism and feminine superiority (Blue Pill),...and with men, it means following a path of masculinity. That is,... real masculinity, not the mal-defined masculinity preached in feminism and pop culture.

[–]Torn4_025[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Never said that. You're putting words in my mouth. I said what I said and didn't say what I didn't say. I'm pointing out thoughts, not people. You've stated some Blue Pill thoughts, Black Pill thoughts, and Red Pill thoughts...I'm doing nothing more than pointing them out. You came here to organize and get an opinion on your thoughts,...so that is what I give you. You can never get your thoughts and ideas into order if you can't properly identify and categorize them (or lash out at people trying to help you do that).

Pointing out a thought isn't that useful if you just stick a label on it and don't explain why it deserves it. Often people slap beta, blue pill or black pill on something as some quick jab instead of constructive feedback.

Blue Pill is...., not leading, deferring to women as the leader, buying into feminism, "SIMPing, etc. Most "pop culture" romance ideology is BP,...but real romance itself is not.

Romance is boring and frankly I can't see RP making it more interesting. Unless you mean foreplay instead of what I believe you are talking about.

Black Pill is...., doom and gloom, everything is a waste of time, romance sucks, should never marry, all negativity and no hope.

Romance does suck and is just a means to an end for a guy like me.

Exactly. We agree 100% there. BTW, this is Red Pill thought.

Red Pill is simply acknowledging reality for what it is. Neither doom & gloom (Black Pill) nor pie in the sky. Just a well balanced acknowledgment of reality. It also includes the rejection of feminism and feminine superiority (Blue Pill),...and with men, it means following a path of masculinity. That is,... real masculinity, not the mal-defined masculinity preached in feminism and pop culture.

Some RP content is quite "pie in the sky" though. Most TRP content ends up putting women as the prize since getting laid matters so much to them.

[–]PRW630 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Pointing out a thought isn't that useful if you just stick a label on it and don't explain why it deserves it.

I've done plenty of explaining. I think you just want to argue.

Some RP content is quite "pie in the sky" though. Most TRP content ends up putting women as the prize since getting laid matters so much to them.

So you have a very incorrect view of RP and what it means. You are defining it the way the "haters" of RP define it instead of the way those who truly know it and understand it define it. So why are you coming here asking /AskRPC, "Ask Christian Red Pill" when you dislike or don't accept what they say?

[–]Torn4_025[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've done plenty of explaining. I think you just want to argue.

Not really I'm just not convinced.

So you have a very incorrect view of RP and what it means. You are defining it the way the "haters" of RP define it instead of the way those who truly know it and understand it define it. So why are you coming here asking /AskRPC, "Ask Christian Red Pill" when you dislike or don't accept what they say?

Because there are people here that really know their stuff and do a good job of laying down the logic of RP.

[–]Willow-girl0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Women assume men are on porn and might feel the need to bring the whole sexual history topic up.

Women are wise to avoid men who are active porn users IMO.

[–]PRW631 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

Men are wise to avoid a woman with a high notch-count and a Gold-digger entitlement indicators when they hit their late 20's or early 30's and "find God" after her party years where she was having the "real thing" while that same guy she now judges was only having it in his imagination while watching porn.

So what is worse,...

  1. a guy doing it privately in his imagination using porn as a catalyst
  2. a woman doing it for real in her "party years" with the "hawt guys" then keeping it all a secret and lying about "how many"

...and yet it is the guy that owes it to her to "fess up"?

[–]Willow-girl0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

It's late so I'll reply to your points in no particular order and probably not very coherently, lol.

It's beyond my pay grade to decide which sin is more or less egregious than another. Furthermore, as Paul tells use (paraphrased) all things are permissible to us, though not all are profitable. If you haven't been convicted that using porn is sinful, by all means, carry on -- the Holy Spirit will convict you or not as he pleases. That's not my job!

I do think untruthfulness in a relationship is a bad idea; it's akin to building on a bad foundation, which usually doesn't have a good outcome.

As far as women getting saved later in life, there's actually a parable in the Bible that addresses a very similar topic! It's called "Workers in the Vineyard" and can be found in Matthew 20. It's human to feel resentment because another person didn't make the same sacrifices that we did, but evidently God's ways are not our ways.

Now, in closing, why do I think porn is detrimental to a relationship? Here is my personal conviction: I think when you put all your sexual eggs in one basket, you tend to watch that basket closely. When all of your gratification comes from your spouse, you invest more in your marriage. You are more closely attuned to your partner's needs and wants, and eager to please them. It creates a kind of 'virtuous circle' in which both husband and wife are striving to delight one another. Porn, erotica, affairs, or any kind of sexual gratification or validation that takes place outside of the marriage erodes this. It makes you less reliant on your spouse and less motivated to do what it takes to keep them happy. JMO; YMMV.

[–]PRW630 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Now, in closing, why do I think porn is detrimental to a relationship?

I'm short on time myself right now,...but a quick response....

There probably no serious disagreement between us for the most part. Porn is detrimental.

What I am going on about is the imbalance between how men are expected to "fess up" about any of their dark past, even when it is just thoughts and fantasies in the mind activated by porn. But then the women,... (who can find real sex much more readily),...can get it on with all the "bad boys" in their teens and 20's. Then suddenly try to get their act together (which is fine) and then are not held to the same standard of having to "fess up" about their past. They present themselves as "virtuous", never reveal their past,...while judging the guy for "fake sex" while she had been doing it for real.

What I tell people is that both people should just keep their mouth shut,...have your life in order,...keep it in order,...move forward. Stop destroying the chances of a successful relationship by digging up dirt and filth from the past and shoveling it in. It serves no useful purpose than to give the other person something to dump you over (in spite of all the pious and holier than thou talk that says it doesn't do that).

[–]Willow-girl1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Well, I do think people should be honest. Now, that doesn't mean you have to volunteer information ... no one wants to hear a play-by-play of past sex acts, I don't think. OTOH, if a dating partner asks you about your past or your porn habits or whatever else they're curious about, you shouldn't lie, either. Don't misrepresent yourself. Be honest and let the chips fall where they will.

[–]PRW631 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I can accept that.

But if they ask,...I don't need to lie,...but I can also tell them "You first",...or,..."My past is none of your business", or "Why are you asking?". There are many ways to deal with it besides spilling your guts to someone who hasn't earned it and who may just dump you next week or next month,...and what is to stop them from repeating what you told them to all their friends after they dump you, no longer "like you" and have no reason to keep it a secret.

[–]Willow-girl1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

A log of wisdom there! You are not being deceitful by declining to disclose information.

[–]Willow-girl-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Most people have committed some kind of sexual immorality. I'm certainly in no place to throw any stones, myself. Just wanted to put that right up-front-and-center.

I don't think it's fruitful to argue which flavor of immorality is more serious or excusable than the others. It sounds like you have a problem with pornography. The solution isn't to make excuses for it; it's to turn away from it and be healed from this compulsion.

I can tell you that using porn while married will harm your marriage. You'll be less motivated to please your wife because you're not relying on her to fulfill all your sexual needs. Even if your wife doesn't know about your habits, she'll be able to sense that something is "off" in your marriage and she'll be hurt and puzzled by it. There will be times when she will want sex with you but you'll be unable to perform because you gratified yourself three times already with cam girls while your wife was at work. Rebuffing your wife's advances will make her less likely to initiate or even respond to your advances going forward ... so you'll use porn even more to meet your needs. It becomes a vicious cycle.

I had a marriage that was destroyed by pornography.

If you are not already married, why not get a handle on this problem now? I have found that 12-step programs are a pretty good guidebook to breaking any kind of bad habit or compulsion. I can tell you from personal experience that the steps WORK! The good news is that the end game isn't to simply struggle not to give in to temptation; it's to be free of the compulsion entirely. With God's help, this is possible.



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