As an anti-Red Pill, Mark Manson-fan, I still believe in hypergamy (to some extent) - can someone explain to me why it's wrong?

Yesm3can · 2020-06-17T05:55:18+00:00

rather be alone then date someone average

Isn't this a good thing and instead of women should stop doing this, men should try to do it also? Dating someone you are not fully into just because alone sounds like a scary word sounds quite egoistical and manipulative for me.

When I was younger, I read an article titled Should you get Mr. RIGHTNOW while waiting for Mr.RIGHT?

Now I am not against any consenting adults doing whatever they want, but the article basically said for women to give men they do not really love or attracted to a chance, for the chance (hah), that they turned to be Mr. Right at some point. You can see the problems with that right?

Just my personal opinion, but maybe we should not treat dating people like picking our nose? Something we do when we are bored and not having anything else to do. And if someone average is not what we want, we should rather be alone indeed than using people as a temporary nose picking activity (except if we are honest about it and they understood and consented fully to it.)

Edit: I am interested in hearing what kind of society will we make, if both men and women equally set higher standards and rather be alone than compromising on it. But that also means that men and women will work harder on themselves, so that they will be qualified for those higher standards. Which will make a better (albeit less populated) society overall?

Fuzzy-Scene · 2020-06-17T10:43:30+00:00

I believe in equality between genders, freedom in life and being able to be yourself even if it doesn't fit in gender boxes

If you believe this then why does it matter? You are putting people into boxes by trying to reason with hypergamy in the first place. If you truly accepted that some women choose this way of life because they are free to do so, then it is simply just that. A lifestyle choice. Just as you choose to go to the gym, eat healthily, eat junk food, do adrenaline sports, do sports that are safe etc, get a trophy wife, get a dowdy wife, get a younger wife or whatever you choose. Who are you or anyone else to try and understand ALL people for the choices you make?

You view people through your own perspective of the world...

My own experiences makes it seem like women are in general pickier then men, and rather be alone than date someone average, while men, in general, are less picky and don't mind someone average (looks, social skills, hobbies, intelligence...).

Your own experiences are limited to... Well, your own experiences. My experiences are different from yours and so is the next person and so on. Until you fully accept this as a fact no one will change your mind. You will have to start taking each person on their own individual merit like you should be for ALL people all of the time.

The biggest problem with the red pill IS making unfounded assumptions about people. It's been so indoctrinated into you that you become caged in judging people whom you've never met, don't understand their personal drives, experiences, ambitions, goals in life etc. How would you feel if I judged you about things you've never talked about? Made wild assumptions about your motivations?

Take an interest in people and start trying to understand them by the things they say rather than the narrative going on in your head.

Inareskai · 2020-06-17T10:54:12+00:00

I think that only makes sense if women are only looking at the physical features of a man or only interested in his socio-economic status. And potentially some women are doing that, but by no means all of them or even enough to have hypergamy be a useful descriptor to apply to women in general.

I would rather the alone than with a person I didn't have any particularly strong feelings for, that is true regardless of their looks or socio-economic status. Someone could be the fittest and richest man I'd ever met but if our personalities don't fit well then it's never going to work out.

It's not that women are pickier about 'looks' per se (though again, I'm sure some are) and would rather be single than date someone average looking. It may be that women are pickier in general and would therefore rather not be with men, regardless of their looks, unless they fit a specific set of criteria (often to do with personality and worldviews).

I've never thought 'oh that person isn't that attractive but we get on super well so I'd rather be alone'. Getting on with the person and meshing well with them pretty much always takes precedence. Similarly I've known some very attractive men who were just, boring, or we had other incompatibilities and I could look at them and go 'wow, he's nice to look at' but still not want to date him because a relationship between us would just never be a good one.

tl:dr - any person looking for a real relationship generally prioritises getting on with the person over their looks/socio-economic status (I'd argue there's plenty of evidence for that out in the world). Some people might only be interested in looks/practice hypergamy, but realistically it's not a widespread enough behaviour to ever be a useful way to understand a general population.

forsakenquantum · 2020-06-17T19:10:31+00:00

"Hypergamy" makes sense in a society where men hold all the power, so in order to get any power of their own, women are forced to try to get men who have more power. Most societies in recorded history have been like this, leading many people to assume it's "human nature". But now that women increasingly have access to power without needing a man to mediate it, this pressure to find a "higher value man" is less, and it's becoming much more common for men and women both to choose partners based on personal compatibility.

2020-06-19T00:48:13+00:00

Women find it easier to be single because their self worth doesn't rely on their relationship status. Men have decided they are only 'real men' if they have a woman on their arm which isn't true in the slightest but the majority of men seem to have bought into it because echo chambers are telling them so.

It doesn't make anyone happy, not the men who run around like headless chooks trying to fulfill the shallow aspirations of their peers, nor the women who just get completely sidelined if they don't show any interest in their male friends sexually. Imagine how it feels a woman to have a male friend shun you just because you won't open your legs for them, it makes us feel inhuman, just like objects that are only useful for sex, not worthy for sharing thoughts, jokes etc.

not-dead-yet-ok · 2020-06-17T22:53:57+00:00

The simple answer is that it's rare for a theory to be so bad that it doesn't have a grain of truth about it... you can accept that in this case without riding the elevator all the way to the bottom...

sanloveshorror · 2020-06-20T01:25:15+00:00

So I initially ignored this post thinking you were trolling and sent it to a friend who isn't as well versed in RP like me. Our discussions led me to comment back on you maybe in the hopes you could potentially understand gaps in your logic and come off with your high horse. I also hope those who are recovering from RP will read this.

First of all, from evolutionary theory and mate selection theory, female hypergamy is based off the resources and status ONLY provided by the male, while the opposite of that is termed male hypogamy, which is based on her looks and fertility. This was true for those societies where women had no role in deciding their suitors and men dominated most resources and wealth I.e patriarchy.

There is no point in adding "looks" ( this itself is stupid if you're going to take it objectively, we all have seen the hot girlfriend/wife with a conventionally unattractive guy in popular culture) , intelligence, hobbies and social skills.

With this logic you're making it seem that the guy in relationship is always somehow above average or inherently superior than his girlfriend (even if in reality he might not perceive her to be), thus eventually looking down on women in general who happen to be in relationships.

You're also making a logical gap of women who are single are "picky" doing out of so and so factor. You're making an assumption that women "need" to be in a relationship, if they aren't, then there's something wrong with them. (Giving you benefit of doubt, it's likely coming because you're judging yourself and your worth based off whether you're in relationship or not).

Even the men above the elite 1% marry women who are within the same social class or have similar level of status. People like being with people who are similar. Period. Nothing deep about that.

Whether you realise it or not, the RP ideology has been so ingrained in your mind that you have developed this double edge sword towards women. If you're not rich and she's trying to date you due to X reason, it's because of HPeRgaMy you're so badly trying to mold in as a self fulfilling prophecy.

Gerealtor · 2020-06-18T07:23:12+00:00

The thing is that these men don't understand why women would rather be alone than date someone they feel "meh" about because they would rather date (or be fucking lbr) women they feel that way about than date no one at all. No one is always the worse scenario to them. They can't fathom that a lot of women (and just people) genuinely feel worse being with someone where it just isnt quite there than being alone. It's like if you're starving and you're offered a meal you don't really like, you'll still take it, but if you aren't that hungry anyways, you probably won't.

RandomAttackHelpMe · 2020-06-19T21:15:20+00:00

It is because of the endless complaints about where are the good men and the x amount of guys, who yes, some need a reality check, going hey, I am a good man. Look at me. Pick me. I am here etc.

And then being told they are not good enough cause they do not "measure up" over what are arguably often petty things.

Lady_Beatnik · 2020-06-17T02:30:50+00:00

Eh, you do you. As long as you're not trying to dictate your preferences as the "natural order," you can have any relationship goals you want.

Xemnas81 · 2020-06-18T00:41:54+00:00

For me most young American women are hypergamous in some sense, and this is because they are perhaps the most self-actualised generation of feminists in its long line, but also because they have consumer capital which is in itself artificial, mostly from social media and corporations. Meanwhile we have a generation of men who haven't adjusted as well for a lot of reasons, that the government is hoping will die off to avoid a revolution, and that business has less interest in reaching except to sell power fantasies and the next socially climbing money-making self help book to them. They don't give men direct influence but the promise of future influence.

There's two issues here. First, how do we lift men up without bringing women down? This is what men's advocates should be dedicating themselves to, but it's hard to do it without getting pulled into antifeminism and traditionalism, or incel ideology. Trust me that I've tried :( Secondly, how do we help men to find 'good' women who would challenge AWALT? For me the recurring thing that has me trust a woman has always been discovering that they are NOT vain gold-diggers but are humanitarians. Often but not always they're leftists, so money is not that high up their priorities.

With this said, I do think that RP does have an 'apex fallacy', it's looking at the lives of 22 year old Instagram models or Ivy league elites as if these represent the average woman (even the average 22 year old). Not to mention an online medium. The feminist narrative that 'women mature quicker than men' (in the line of the Women are Wonderful effect) kind of conflicts with this, but the reality-or rather the narrative I cling on to anyway-is that despite their advantage in some areas, young women are still by and large insecure. A lot of teenage girls have been pressurised into sex, does this mean they 'control the sexual marketplace'? The idea that having lots of sex=having all the power is problematic. To some extent men project this onto women, because women buy into the 'power' they are given on social media-to be superficially influential through their youth and beauty, and get caught in a validation loop-and men who take as we live as natural struggle to see that this is in itself a fantasy, resent that and thirst over it rather than seeing it as a trap of sorts. We have to acknowledge social media is not real life and that women would be much more receptive to connection IRL, where they can be taken off the pedestal.

Then with MRAs they are pretty much virtually hatefucking white middle class liberal feminist journalists in their 30s, highly educated women but not always intersectional or class conscious.

Ultimately I think TRP is an extension of the fake neoliberal self-improvement culture that thrives in California, NYC, and other urbanite places (mostly America, but London is like this, it's not a surprise to me that it's nearly exclusively Westernised commercial liberal capital cities with this phenomenon.) Marx would suggest that alienation is not the natural state of man, yet these movements all want to entrench unregulated capitalism and other social hierarchies that they are clearly distressed by, for reasons I do not understand.

So at this point I am less angry about hypergamy existing at present, as considering this to be natural. It's not, however, the redpill solution is too extreme in terms of removing women's autonomy. To a degree, men will have to catch up with women, and women do this too. As to how that is done I think that it would start with things like: self-care. Resolve the boy crisis. Homosocial bonding. But the problem is deeper for me than sexual market value or leagues, and the solution cannot be in individualism and constant competition for mates. That tradcon MRAs would laugh at me for trying to 'rewrite nature' in this sense was a red flag for me.

In the meantime, remember that hypergamy is a metric that women (and men) use in the absence of any obvious compatibility. Mark would say look to assortatively mate. Like attracts like. (That's homogamy, really, not hypergamy)

learnfemalenature · 2020-06-18T12:30:31+00:00

Watch Jordan Peterson Debunk the Myth

IcyEfficiency4 · 2020-06-18T20:41:54+00:00

hypergamy is a scientific FACT . This sub is blind to the world lool . For the record i had plastic surgery and went from being treated like a cunt to women falling over themselves to flirt with me , most women ive met if attracted to you will cheat on their partner .

liarliarpantsonfirex · 2020-06-17T02:03:50+00:00

It is not wrong lol, it’s natural and NORMAL! not all men are suppose to have sex and pass on their genes. Throughout history, it was normal for powerful and Rich men to have multiple partners and still is, while normal guys have to resort to lying and pick up artistry to have the same results. Women have more on the line biologically (limited amount of eggs, one pregnancy at a time, vulnerable while pregnant, needing to be cared for and the babies to be taken care of, etc), so we don’t throw a fishing net into the dating pool and go threw all the catches we get like men do... it just does not work like like and it never will.. women will always be naturally hypergamous and it’s a good thing; it serves as a gate for only the good genes to be reproduced (which is weird because don’t some incels cry and whine about not being tall or having a strong jaw? That wouldn’t happen if their moms chose a better looking partner)

Title	As an anti-Red Pill, Mark Manson-fan, I still believe in hypergamy (to some extent) - can someone explain to me why it's wrong?
Author	OutsideBandicoot3
Upvotes	10
Comments	43
Date	June 17, 2020 1:19 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/hah6ad/as_an_antired_pill_mark_mansonfan_i_still_believe/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/as-an-anti-red-pill-mark-manson-fan-i-still.696994 https://theredarchive.com/post/696994