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Dead serious: How to make friends as an adult and what to expect out of adult friendships?

Reddit View
June 14, 2020

Idk how else to start this soo.... please hear me out.

I just turned 25 and I literally haven’t made a “new” friend since probably around jr high school (age 15-16?). I haven’t “hung out” with someone where it wasn’t just for sex in probably 5 years. I had one friend whom I had known since childhood but we are no longer friends, haven’t had contact with him in 2 yrs.

Growing up, the majority of my “friends” or the people I hung out with were older than me by 5-10 yrs. I’ve never really had “casual friendships” (which I am assuming is what adult friendships are like since most people now are concerned with their work and family). It was always “ ride or die” type friendships (idk what other term to use) or drug friends (our biggest commonality was drug use)

I want to make this clear: from an outside perspective I look like a totally normal person. I am in good shape, well groomed, hygiene is very high on my list. I DO NOT look like a basement dweller. But I’ve had a lot of shit happen in my life, substance abuse problems (never hard drugs but typical teenage drugs: pot, adderrall, LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy), depression, moved about 15 times growing up. BUT now I want (no... I NEED) to put that behind me.

I am not socially retarded. I come in contact and deal with people problems daily in my work (self employed/service/sales). But I am not sure how to navigate personal/non-business relationships.

I really don’t know how else to explain this. I feel like I have sort of a “serial-killer-esque” personality but I know that I can’t live my entire life by myself. Indulging in hobbies alone can only fulfill someone so much. I need companionship. Thank you for reading.

Post Information
Title Dead serious: How to make friends as an adult and what to expect out of adult friendships?
Author jy432
Upvotes 162
Comments 85
Date 14 June 2020 05:27 PM UTC (8 months ago)
Subreddit askTRP
Original Link
Similar Posts

[–][deleted] 191 points192 points  (6 children) | Copy

Invite, invite, invite. Organize footbal watch evenings and invite your coworkers, tell them you're going to event Join an event and ask them if they want to join you. Join a teamsport

You'll get rejected a hella lot, it's a numbers game but you gotta realize that these rejections have nothing to do with you. People have families now, houses to take care of etc.

[–]beginner_10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy

invite your coworkers

coworkers are not your friends. They will throw you under bus at first chance the get.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes but that doesn't mean you can't use them to have a good time.

[–]gyropitaolives0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If your work is shit, then yes it'd be expected they won't talk good about you to your boss, even if they are "friends". Co-workers are not your enemies, but also they won't lie if you're not working well.

With that said, it's normal to go out for lunch with co-workers or do activities outside of work.

[–]xxx69harambe69xxx0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

depends on the work place, there are companies where the average intelligence level is above the crabs in a bucket threshold, and people are capable of internally strategizing soft unions

How many companies are like that, not many, but the point remains

[–]boy_named_su46 points47 points  (3 children) | Copy

I've made most of my friends through school, work, and friends of friends

Be a fun, entertaining guy, so you get invited back. Chat to everyone at group events, not just those you know

Read a book on storytelling, and apply. Read How to Make Friends and Influence People by Carnegie

Take an improv class and watch good standup

Work people w kids usually need advance notice, like a day or two, or up to a week

Like Throw_RA_olliedoesit said, have regular events and invite people. In my town, you have to invite double or triple the number of people to get the number you want. Accept that many will flake, or even all of them. Keep plugging away.

Post fun pics on social media

Send personal messages to each person, not blast messages. And remind them day-of

[–]Casanova-Quinn7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Giving people advanced notice is a great point. Last minute invites usually don’t work out with people who aren’t already good friends.

[–]CaptainRWMS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

What books on storytelling would you recommend?

[–]boy_named_su9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

Unleash the Power of Storytelling: Win Hearts, Change Minds, Get Results

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

Man what you told me resonated 100% with me (even the serial killer part lol).
I kinda feel like I creep out other people, even if I don't want to. But probably this is just a thing we think about ourselves.

I am making friends nowadays only from the passions I follow. That's why it is great, because you support each other and at the same time hang out or just do something completely different.

If you played World of Warcraft it's somehow like that.
You want to go into a dungeon to get specific loots (your goals in life, hopefully according to your passion).
Then you look for other members who have the same goal as you. At that time you just hang out together and support each other out to get to the boss for looting (your endgoal).

And like it's written here in the comments: it is a numbers game. Sometimes people will stay in your life after you met them, sometimes they move on somewhere else.

What works for me, is that I am focused on my passions and live that out. That's how I have my friends around me.

However I don't have a TRUE friend atm. Like a brother I can talk to. But even that is just a matter of "chances" that will come to you.

So I say, Accept what is, Let go what was and have faith in what will be

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (5 children) | Copy

DUde the only way i see is doing group activities where u ll see each other lots of times and have a story in common. This is why high school is effective: U see each other every day, have a common struggle and a common enemy.

Go do martial arts AND GO TO CHAMPIONSHIPS. It's the only way i know >D I've made friends joining a band too... And trough pUA groups after lots of rejections together.

But u see, the thing came before the friend. It is like going to an adventure together. I'm not very good at making friends at nowhere so, this is what worked. Work parties/happy hours and so can also be an opportunity...

I'll tell u this 100%: They won't fall in your lap inside your house.

[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy


[–]Bounce18560 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

What part of the country are you living in man?

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy


[–]Bounce18562 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Ah. Phoenix. Saw kayaking, fishing, shooting etc and thought that sounds like my state haha.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy


[–]Brztr9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

yes, be the one that gathers people around him

People are really often willing to go out and do cool stuff but they're lazy followers and are just waiting for "the guy" who will organize the event

Propose activities, take the initiatives, be the leader, the fun guy

Take that seat and people will come to you

[–]boy_named_su2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Try "Hey Frank, I'm going fishing in Jonesville today. Come along!"

[–]tinko2233067 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy

  • Firstly and the most important thing is to talk wherever you are, it doesen't matter if it's on the street or at work, etc. You should talk to everyone.

  • You probably got this comment, but I'm gonna write it anyway: Focus on your purpouse in life and what makes you happy (hobbies). It's a lot easier to talk to people that have simular or same interests as you.

  • Be the first one to initiate contact. By that I mean invite people to hang out outside whatever it is where you meet ( example: you meet colleague at work. Invite someone you like to hang out outside work) . By meeting outside the usual place you do, you bond more and become closer, because you are talking more personal things. A lot of people are shy, introverted or simply won't bother to make a contact with a stranger.

  • You'll get rejected. Don't let that affect you. By getting rejected you learn and it makes you stronger.

The following tips are from the book: "How to win friends and influence people". I strongly recommend the book, so far it's very helpful

  • Fundamental Techniques in Handling People:
  • Don't criticize, condemn or complain.
  • Give honest and sincere appreciation.
  • Arouse in the other person an eager want.

  • Six ways to make people like you:

  • Become genuinely interested in other people.

  • Smile.

  • Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.

  • Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.

  • Talk in term of the other person's interests.

  • Make the other person feel important-and do it sincerely.
    How to win People your way of thinking:

  • The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.

  • Show respect for the other person's opinion. Never say, "You're wrong"

  • If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically

  • Begin in a friendly.

  • Get the other person saying "yes, yes" immediately.

  • Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.

  • Let the other person feel that the idea is his or hers.

  • Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.

  • Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.

  • Appeal to the nobler motives.

  • Dramatize your ideas.

  • Throw down a challenge.

There was the a part about how to be a leader, but I haven't read so far.

Hope this helps

[–]Smuggler-Tuek2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

How to win friends and influence people should be mandatory reading for every person, ideally when they are growing up.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy


[–]tinko2233060 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Just don't get lost in the self help books. There are a handful of books that are good and will help you. Most of the newer stuff is scam. I'm talking about stuff like join my course self help /pickup artists

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy


[–]tinko2233061 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I've read a few. After I finish How to win friends I'm gonna read How to be 3% man by Corey Wayne again and focus on applying the things in real life

[–]courtesy_flush_plz5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

hate to be cliche' but joining a hiking group (FB group?) is a safe bet in surrounding yourself with more positive people & branching out from there

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy


[–]courtesy_flush_plz5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

women will mold to your frame & hobbies if they're all about you too, that's a bonus .. most women don't have distinct hobbies, given that drinking, eating pizza, sarcasm, & travelling aren't hobbies

[–]24354657683 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

People connect over shared interests and commonaltities...

[–]axiscontra7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy

Friends are overrated to me lol. I see everyone as my friend when I want a friend I can talk to anyone and develop rapport. Friendships are just to spend time with others and enjoy yourself.

Dont expect much from people. Friendship develops naturally out of common interest and goals.

[–]ZeppKfw5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Don't expect much from people

Should've known this much earlier in my life. Life just gets so much better if you just have fun in the moment. If we become friends great! If not great!

[–]VigilantSmartbomb2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If we become friends great! If not great!

This so much. Either way great!!

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy


[–]axiscontra3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Im 28. I can relate, I work from home and am a PHD student. I can work but I dont need too since my investments are doing well and I live well beneath my means, and have multiple streams of income. I used to think why am I working so hard if I cant share it with anyone. I would throw myself into toxic relationships with people friends and romantic, because I could handle it and they would benefit from my presence. Now I feel like its not worth my peace. I enjoy myself and I enjoy my company. I enjoy focusing on myself. It's sad because it seems everyone around me is suffering. The people I focus on the most (even if very little) now are my family, I had to build a relationship with most of them. I will need to meet people for my business endeavors so Im saving all my energy for then haha. I also know there are many people who would love to have my time and energy. They respect my time and know its valuable. I also have a cat and a someone lives in my apartment because I rent out a room.

Right now, I'm planning a short 5 hour kayaking trip over to a local island for tomorrow. I'm excited. I thought for a short second who could I take with me? No idea. Maybe i'll meet someone out there haha. Who cares.

I go through cycles, sometimes alot of people. sometimes none. Quarantine is making none easy right now. No person can ever give me anything better than I could give myself. Unless they are giving me themselves, and I've never tried to really make a woman submit to me. Not interested in that at the moment, maybe one day. I know my worldview is rare, I pretty much grew up an orphan, everyone in my family basically left. I developed a huge sense of indepence expect that small amount of depression that made me seek another person for fulfillment. Once I realized that I was never going to get the love I thought I sought from my only surviving parent things got easy for me. I no longer externally sought for anything because I had everything myself. I have no trouble making friends people enjoy me and love me, i am very useful a jack of all trades. im fun and interesting and different. And I find there are two main sets of people neither what I truly want. People who illogically feel they are entitled to me and thus dont appreciate me, and people who appreciate me but have nothing much to offer me but are willing to take.

Feel free to pm and we can chat more.

[–]VigilantSmartbomb1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Feel like this is the path im on, preciate the incite. Seems enjoyable

[–]SoA_MC1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I’m kinda in the same boat. Similar age, same just one good mate from school days, with others i’d call acquaintances. But, I am an introvert.

I would be interested to see you report back after doing what others are suggesting.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I'm 22 and just started to golf. I booked a solo tee time at a country club and sure enough I was grouped with three others. They are petroleum engineers and we get to talking and sure enough they live close to the lake I'm on, they visit the restaurant I bartend at, etc. We had good golf, made lots of jokes, they bought me drinks, and even though they're 30 years older, I have contacts now that I'll see around my area. They also have sons who are my age they want to introduce me to.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you can help it, never ever eat alone. Never golf alone

[–]slacker450 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I always feel awkward exchanging contact info in situations like these. Sucks how many people I could have connected with and then didn't.

[–]WheresDaLeek1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

My man, we probably lived the same life to a T.

Constantly moving growing up, the substance abuse, the depression, having a bunch of older friends (or they have their shit together type friends), Lost a lot of friends or just cool friends that faded away, and I have still have a few of my "drug friends" who are super cool but at the end of the day I'm not trying to live like that 24/7 like this is highschool still. I've been a "drifter" most my teen to young adult life (24/M) so I was DEFINITELY that doofus waiting around until "the man with the plan" hits me up with some fun or party and was ALWAYS down to party.. no matter what. It's crazy how it gets old; if not in moderation. I feel what you're going through man but anyways a lot of these replies are spot on. I've recently started to try myself to make more friends(other than a drug commonality). I even got into a Retail job awhile back to get more confident talking to strangers. It helped a bit but my young, insecure self slips out here and there where I want to do something but I, myself don't even make things happen. Am I scared of rejection? Am I afraid of looking boring? HELL YES!!! but shit I guess that's what you have to go through as an adult .. just have to understand PEOPLE HAVE LIVES AND YOURE NOT GOING TO CLICK WITH EVERYONE. INVITE INVITE INVITE.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy


[–]mrrooftops1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Make sure your understanding of 'friendship' isn't some form of a codependent version that you should grow out of in your early 20s. What you think might be more 'casual' is actually more healthy as you become more independent and varied in your views, interests and other things that no one person will fit all that. I am incredibly wary of someone who only has the friends they had in school or college way into their 30s.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy


[–]mrrooftops0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He'll work it out eventually when, not if, more friends do the same.

[–]dtyler861 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Dude, I’m 34, super outgoing, work for myself, have a lot of interests and I STILL haven’t made many real friends in years. I’ll say this: the people that are super available in your late twenties/thirties are probably losers. It sucks, because I like to go out for drinks a couple nights a week, go to the beach, meet up for dinner and I’m so busy that I’m the one that has to bail and other people with serious careers and families just can’t a lot either. It’s saddening, and what’s worse, at 34 I have insane energy and everyone else is fucking exhausted all the time. The people that are free are still servers, alcoholics, single (for bad fucking reasons), etc.

I’d love to magically meet more similar people like me, but I can’t seem to find them either.

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy


[–]dtyler860 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It’s not hopeless, maybe you’ll love in a different place with better friends; I live in south Florida. Most people that grow up here aren’t form here and they want to go back “home” to NY/NJ or where their careers take them. It’s superficial here and very transient. People move away and move here constantly. Lots of vanity and bullshit.

[–]xxx69harambe69xxx1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

the curse of intelligence

edit: yea, especially if you're living in florida

[–]KillYourInnerLoser1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

I was in exactly this position about 4 years ago - I had zero friends and had no fucking idea how to make any. I did everything listed here: worked the best for me; especially if you deliberately seek out masculine, self-improvement-focused people. Groups like "philosophy groups" and "fitness groups" etc tend to have a lot of those sort of people. You can also search for "masculinity groups" or "groups for men" - I made a tonne of great friends through searching for those keywords.


[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy


[–]KillYourInnerLoser0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Welcome mate.

[–]xxx69harambe69xxx1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

damn, this is actually solid advice, at first i was like, ahhh shit, another guru, but that meetup advice is spot on from my experience

[–]KillYourInnerLoser0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah meetup is legit. It's like Tinder for socialising/making friends.

[–]omkar-m1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just start conversation with random people on random things like corona virus, weather or politics. Men are not judgmental like women, start chatting with them get know them what they do in these times, job, relationship. Hell you can talk about series of your favourite to them. Just start communicating with smile in your face you will be amazed how people are also like to make friends but bit of hesitant like you and if you start you will get more friends but it will be little awkward at the beginning but you will get them to be friends. Remember you are awesome.......

[–]BluzzKill1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Get hobby, be cool, build rapport and set up dates. Kinda like with girls just no happy ending. Maybe your hobby is bjj and a good ufc fight is coming up, invite some bros out to watch the fight. Maybe you hit the rockwall, start hanging if it feels good, "man I need a pizza and beer, there is a great place down the street.... oh hey bro you wanna join you look hungry" easy

[–]BluzzKill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just saw your hobbies start shooting competitions

[–]VigilantSmartbomb3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

youll get tired of it eventually

Guys come and go and are largely just "drinking buddies" or shittin around with buddies, if u dont do that then eh - but its good for social clout and to know how to navigate the field well

As far as girls, it's cool cause it's nice to be in an environment with flowers u feel me , other than that, aye

Do you man! There's so much more to life than people. I mean a whole sect of people, hermits and recluse, completely forgo society for a reason! (Often times religious)

Honestly.. Get a dog lol

Edit: and if youre rising on the social dominance hierarchy eventually you should be standing at the top of your zone- I once asked the question did the Pharaoh have friends? I wonder.

And then there's the whole aspect of philosophy and religion pointing to the fact that consciousness is one and all that jazz - just have fun with it man find something you enjoy or do something new!

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy


[–]VigilantSmartbomb0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I mean if I’m being honest it’s the ultimate end goal. The world is a playing field, people have been doing the same thing for a millennia. There’s a thread of consistency that we just call religion but if you initiate yourself in the culture you can begin to read and understand things from our past and maybe learn about your future. (Since time is ultimately cyclical or at least relative, then x number of people have had the same experience as you in the infinitum that is time.)

My point being, there’s a path and that path is collectively known as religion, and having your own spiritual awakening is the goal. I’ve researched and studied formally multiple religions but I enjoy the teachings about obtaining a relationship with Jesus, whoever he was. (Not sure where you’re at and the keys are kept for the initiated since having a key to a door that you’re not ready to open can lead you on a worse path)

This, in my opinion, is the true red pill.

Eventually the physical gets repetitive and people start thinking about the non physical.

Even people who find themselves researching a niche science find themselves in the same boat. They’re interested in the non physical aspects that make our wonder in the world spike.

One of my favorite quotes is by Heisenberg, more or less one of the founders of quantum mechanics. He said,” The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God stares back at you.”

God is real, God is, and God is you.

Much love.

Edit: I also really recommend a dog lmao

[–]Maximedius0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Band and University are pretty much the only things that worked for me.

[–]Pleasenodrugs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It’s the fact that you moved a lot. Same with me, we have a hard time really connecting with people and we end up seeing friends as temporary things which stops us from fully investing in somebody. Thankfully I stayed in contact with my childhood friends, but the best advice I can give you is to find somebody you really like, admire in your circle and invest in them, you are gonna have to be the one inviting them for things, do this with a few people then bring those circles together

[–]Texan21160 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I am 55, and I have never had a friend(that I socialize wth), that does not relate back to my teenage drug years. Some of these friends I do hobbies with as well, but the root is my teenage years.

[–]NicVang0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Go out and meet people. Populated venues, activities and hobbies you do yourself. Etc. Anywhere you go.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Have hobbies, and make make effort to spend time with people with similar interest.

[–]_usgook0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

Here in the Philippines, with that age they go on a solo trip. Whether in a mountain climbing, surfing or just a beach trip. There’s a group tour offered for the joiners who wants to go to the Mountain and that you will create a bond to the strangers with mostly the same age with yours. I hope wherever you are you can find the same vibes. (Sorry for my english)

[–]alfred3111 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I hope we can create a group for filipino red pill and perhaps meet someday, very few pinoys are into red pill

[–]_usgook0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah, why not alfred? I dunno why I’m here also but I saw an article in google and found this app around March this year. Haha! I find it informative unlike facebook. I deactivate my fb btw, it was so toxic for me. Mental health and peace of mind is now my priority.

[–]alfred3110 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I deactivated all my social apps long time, toxic, fake, waste of time and a distraction achieving your goals

[–]_usgook0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I agree! Well in my 25 yrs of existence, I’ve realized it just by now. Lol and also I found out that I am the kind of person that is easily distracted.

[–][deleted]  (5 children) | Copy


[–]_usgook0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Yes! I don’t know if it applies in other country. But in Asia you can find a lot of tours offered for solo traveler. We call it as joiners travel tour. If COVID is gone, you can come here in PH, you can find a lot of friends here.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy


[–]_usgook1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Ah yeah. I think every countries are the same, lol it is only that the people who have different thinking. I mean we are not different from you, its just the colors, the language and the culture and most importantly is how you respect the people and its culture. But to answer, yes PH is safe, you can check some blogs or vlogs in youtube about PH, a lot of foreigners doing it.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy


[–]_usgook0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are very welcome! Just don’t do something that you knooooow lol just enjoy and appreciate what you are now.

[–]GrooveDive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I'm curious if you've read the sidebar or not. I think you know how to make friends, you just need the right mindset to go out of your comfort zone.

[–]redbarone0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

How to make friends? You don't make them, you find them.

What to expect from them? Go to a bar with them and shoot the shit. You tell jokes, share stories of your adventure and cook up plans between you. You agree to do something to improve a skill or to accomplish a journey together, to accumulate the right resources for a project.

[–]savagetwonkfuckery0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You casually said you moved 15 times growing up as if that doesn’t have a lot to do with your situation

[–]aDrunkenWhaler0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Start BJJ

[–]Velebit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Join groups that do stuff. Games, culture, sports, education, politics... you can also just start conversations with guys at wherever you hang out and just offer to join you at something else.

It is not vastly different from gaming women except men are MUCH harder to game unless you have a basic common denominator type of interest. But overall I would say, finding a decent woman is easier than finding a decend guy friend.

All of the 'women are bad' stuff you can copy paste on men... just replace 'cheated on me' with droped our plans for something else and 'divorce rape' with screwed me over with our business idea.

My dad, for example was screwed over by most of his 'friends' for financial reasons.

[–]i-am-the-prize0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

what are your hobbies?

what are you actually good at?

(they may not be the same)

find similar groups on meetup app and start hanging out.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

[–]OpenComparison0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

“That serial-killer esque personality” Lmaooooo I feel that heavy. Once you get into self-improvement a lot that’s what it feels like.

[–]HowToVideoChannel0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Watch this video on How to Make Friends -

[–]DonBullDor-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

The hole idea is that you don't need friend learn to be alone and enjoy your loneliness

[–]Frothyloads86-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Go to swinger parties!

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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