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Are there any other women on this subreddit who also see the many issues with feminism?

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epinkb
January 3, 2020
91 upvotes
antifeminists

I can’t be the only woman on earth that feels like feminism is an extremely crappy deal for men and just a movement for female entitlement. Am I really as alone on this as I’m told?


Post Information
Title Are there any other women on this subreddit who also see the many issues with feminism?
Author epinkb
Upvotes 91
Comments 37
Date 03 January 2020 10:24 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit antifeminists
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/710261
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/antifeminists/comments/ejdmkn/are_there_any_other_women_on_this_subreddit_who/
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entitlementfeminism
Comments

[–]PaladinGamer56318 points19 points  (18 children) | Copy

All the girls I met are either passive or pro-Feminism regardless of the issues. I just avoid discussing the topic. However, I want to know what the r/feminism thinks about us, I will make a post with a passive tone and no harm intended. If I get banned, we can strengthen our claim that feminism really has something wrong. I'm a guy btw.

[–][deleted]  (17 children) | Copy

[deleted]

[–]Masterchefpetyofficr10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Becuase they are part of the problem with feminism, since the internet, they can be rude with impunity, a man makes a claim backed with facts and logic, and it’s dismissed with insults ‘incel’ ‘MRA’ ‘Misogynist’, they have no argument and as such they can’t argue a point back, they have to dismiss us as sexist for wanting to improve men’s lives, because they really can’t get it in their heads that men are now the oppressed minority, or as close as possible these days. Any man who speaks out against the injustices done by feminists Is a sexist bigot, any man who speaks out against circumcision is belittling FGM (which by the way is illegal in first world countries, hard to argue it’s worse than circumcision when circumcision is legal, and on average does a lot more damage, not belittling FGM, just the hard facts, there are of course FGM which are as bad as circumcision, but there are types which are all but harmless) These women are likely to have bad one bad experience, or perceived bad experience, and now either hate or are disgusted by men as a group, not knowing that many of the stereotypes and actions that they dislike have come about Becuase of women not men, it’s actually Becuase of women that the stereotype that a true Male is tall and masculine, because that’s what women wanted and needed, but when you bring that up, feminists on the inter web can get toxic AF.

[–]BlatantNapping4 points5 points  (11 children) | Copy

If you all want to have a good faith discussion about feminism from your perspective you should go to askfeminists. AFAIK feminism is very big on quickly banning anti-feminists. Mostly because feminism is so often over run by low effort trolling--people who dislike feminism tend to be very heated about it.

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

Bullshit. Askfeminists is better than r / feminism the same way an ideological dictatorship is better than a concentration camps. In a concentration camp you're killed either way - in a dictatorship you may stay alive if you repeat the dogmas of the leadership. Neither is conducive to constructive discussion - askfeminists mods are just looking for an excuse to ban you.

[–]BlatantNapping0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

It's funny that I'm debating you on this. I got banned from r/askfeminism after two years, as a feminist, because I think that some of the more intense stuff I practice in BDSM is still compatible with feminism (I stand by that, and I'm still pissed about the ban--that's another story) but that's from the "feminists answering" side of things.

The original commenter said they want to know what feminists think of them, and they have questions with "no harm intended." If you really want to have a good faith discussion about feminism that's what the sub is meant for, and I had great conversations for years with anti-feminists there.

If someone tried to spam posts that say "why do you hate all men and want to kill them" or escalate to name-calling and aggression ("this is all dogmatic bullshit you guys are like Nazis") then of course no one's going to want to talk to them, same as about any topic. Would you want to talk to me if I called you an incel rapist? What would be the point? Discussions need to come from a place of mutual baseline respect.

Edit: if u/paladingamer563 or u/epinkb ever have neutral questions about what feminists think about something or are interested in having a discussion with someone from the other side, I'm happy to talk.

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I got banned from r/askfeminism after two years, as a feminist

Well, that should tell you about the issues with feminism. It's a cult of victimhood, and anyone who steps out of line, and assumes women to have agency of their own - like consenting for a BDSM session - is a sexist in their eyes.

The original commenter said they want to know what feminists think of them, and they have questions with "no harm intended." If you really want to have a good faith discussion about feminism that's what the sub is meant for

Define good faith discussion. Can you have a good faith discussion with a member of an ideological movement about the validity of said ideology? If not, how do you expect a good faith discussion? So basically, the requirement for asking feminists is to never criticize feminism. At that point, what's the point of asking them? It will inevitably be a circlejerk.

If someone tried to spam posts that say "why do you hate all men and want to kill them" or escalate to name-calling and aggression ("this is all dogmatic bullshit you guys are like Nazis") then of course no one's going to want to talk to them,

Would you think it's OK to ask those questions in a community that demonstrated to fit those assertions? That is, hating men, wanting to commit genocide or attrocities against men, namecalling or aggression? Because I know a few feminist communities and people that are like that.

Discussions need to come from a place of mutual baseline respect.

Every time I have talked to a feminist, she (or he) talked down to me, as if to a place of ignorance and privilege. As if I was worth less because they perceived me as being more fortunate for being born with a penis. How can one expect respect when one isn't willing to give it?

Would you want to talk to me if I called you an incel rapist?

Ironic, that's one of the things you will be called on askfeminism if you decided to comment there, and question their narrative.

[–]BlatantNapping0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Good faith means that you're approaching the discussion with respect, honesty and sincerity, that you're actually asking a question or looking to understand (not necessarily agree with) an alternate viewpoint. If you criticize feminists respectfully they're mostly happy to talk to you, especially in that dedicated subreddit. I try to criticize anti-feminists respectfully. That's how productive discussions work.

You said "every time" feminists have talked down to you. I don't think I'm doing that, so there's one positive example. On the other hand you began your original response by aggressively calling my statement bullshit. That's not a great start for a conversation. It just leads to trading insults.

You've reiterated that you believe feminists want to kill all men and hate them. I can't see how that's not purposefully hyperbolic. Neither myself nor any of the feminists I know believe that, and we actively condemn "jokes" on that topic and disavow that the people who who make them. Just because someone claims they're part of a group doesn't mean what they say represents the group. That's why I brought up the incel rapist thing. I know that's the trite rejoinder. On the other hand there are a bunch of actual incel rapists that claim to be anti-feminists. So it's fitting in context.

Ultimately we have to decide how to approach this. You can think I want to kill all men and I think you're an incel rapist and we can feed off the adrenaline of talking shit on the internet. Alternatively we could have a good faith discussion on things that matter. I actively contributed to askfeminists for two years and my experience is that's what they (and I) do.

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

If you criticize feminists respectfully they're mostly happy to talk to you, especially in that dedicated subreddit.

My experience stands to the contrary. Usually if you ask a feminist, they end up attacking you, whether on askfeminists, on quora, or in general.

You said "every time" feminists have talked down to you. I don't think I'm doing that, so there's one positive example.

Well, you also got banned from askfeminists, so maybe you're not exactly a textbook feminist.

On the other hand you began your original response by aggressively calling my statement bullshit.

Don't take it personally. I coukd have said "that's not true". Would that still offend you? BTW "bullshit" is not condescension. "Sure, little buddy" would be it. Which is what one often gets from feminists, for example - dismissal and xo descension.

You've reiterated that you believe feminists want to kill all men and hate them.

Actually no, I did not. I said there ARE some feminist sub-groups that absolutely want to kill or subdue all men.

Neither myself nor any of the feminists I know believe that

You're not the chosen representative of feminism.

we actively condemn "jokes" on that topic

See, that's a lie.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/08/ironic-misandry-why-feminists-joke-about-drinking-male-tears-and-banning-all-men.html

As you can see, a lot of feminists feel that joking about misandry is absolutely hilarious.

Just because someone claims they're part of a group doesn't mean what they say represents the group.

Which brings us to the big question - who DOES represent feminism? In fact, who counts as a feminist? I certainly have no shortage of examples of prominent feminists expressing anti-male views. So who exactly decided what feminist idea is truly representative? And who's enforcing that people who aren't "real feminists" can't hide behind the title of feminist to spread their misandry?

I wish feminists were more transparent with their own ideology.

I know that's the trite rejoinder. On the other hand there are a bunch of actual incel rapists that claim to be anti-feminists.

  1. Incels BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION can't be rapists. Incel means they can't have sex.

  2. As far as I know, every incel community condemns the actions of incel mass shooters. But I don't know of a single publicized rape case by an incel. Care to show me some?

  3. You KNOW ACTUAK RAPISTS? Why haven't you told the police yet?

. I actively contributed to askfeminists for two years and my experience is that's what they (and I) do.

And I've been actively discussing with feminists for around 3 years now, and I have my own experiences. I'm curious how you'll reflect to my comment.

[–]BlatantNapping0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

The first part of all you said is just I think vs you think, but as far as who represents feminism--no one. Who represents liberalism? Conservatism? You can do a quick Google search to find all sorts of information about feminism generally, as a range of movements.

Where you say "prominent" I would say fringe, because advocating seriously for misandry is against the broadest definition of feminism.

It's easy to find idiots anywhere if you're looking for them. Your anti-feminist sub isn't the height of modern intellectualism, for example. And look what's happening in every political party, every philosophy for that matter. But you're also (purposely, I think) excluding all of the general feminists you know--anyone who thinks it's important to advance causes that seek full equality and isn't expressing it like an asshole.

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Who represents liberalism? Conservatism?

Those are abstract moral values, not movements. This is my problem with feminism. People have no problem calling out, say, the Australian liberal party for not being liberal, or the UK conservative party for not being conservative, because ideas like conservatism and liberalism are well understood. Feminism is both an ideology ANDa movement, and people defending feminists often commit a motte and bailey fallacy, taking the arguments of the movement, but defending the arguments of the ideology.

It doesn't help either that by this point feminism incorporates different political and social ideologies ranging from anarchism to authoritarianism, or from marxism to fascism. And indeed, from egalitarianism to female chauvinism. Basically feminism is anything abd everything you can slap it on, which opens itself up to ambiguity, and ambiguity creates places for people with bad intentions to spread their views.

Where you say "prominent" I would say fringe, because advocating seriously for misandry is against the broadest definition of feminism.

So you say for example, Ms magazine is fringe and radical? How about Jess Phillips? The Guardian magazine? The Independant magazine?  Comedian Jo Brand? Actor and director Elizabeth Banks? All of these people have on one or more occasion expressed anti-male sentiment, and all of them claim to be feminists, or support feminism and have feminist journalists, in the case of magazines. How is this fringe? Answer me please. I am not trying to get at you. Bear with me please. I've been talking about this for a long time with feminists, trying to make them admit that there IS a fucking problem with the movement. Do you know why?

Because it fucking hurts.

It hurts to be demeaned, and attacked and invalidated and demeaned for my sex. It hurts that I am treated by people as subhuman being I have a penis. And while I am in a good place right now, I had bad moments. I often felt like the world is against me, and I had bad bad thoughts. I'm say it straight up. I hated women. I hated women because of the way I waa treated by those who claimed to represent women. And while I don't wish to be in that dark place again, it would help my conscience of someone would admit what is obvious. This isn't just the emperor being naked - it's the emperor being naked, and everyone who dares speak out is silenced and attacked. Please, if you admit the emperor is indeed naked, just say so, so that I may not go insane somewhere down the line.

I hope you can feel how desperate I am. This shit induces quite powerful emotions in me.

Your anti-feminist sub isn't the height of modern intellectualism, for example.

It's not my sub, and if I was up to me, I would organise it better. I barely come here.

Then again, as you can see - every sub that goes against the mainstream narrative eventually devolves into a meme sub. Do you know why? Because people have given up arguing with feminists. I did too. For a while I thought I could make a change. Change people's minds. Broaden their world views for a better future. Open up discussion. The I got banned from places, I got attacked, downvoted, doxxed, and I had enough. So me, and other people, just joke about it. If you can't change it, meme it. If this isn't a sad reflection of what authoritarian feminism does to free discussion, I don't know what to tell you.

But you're also (purposely, I think) excluding all of the general feminists you know--anyone who thinks it's important to advance causes that seek full equality and isn't expressing it like an asshole.

Because I don't know such people. Whenever I debated feminists, even real life people who claimed to be feminists, I got attacked, hurt, ridicules. I am not trying to be dishonest. I don't think that me knowing any feminists who aren't horrible people would actually change the core issue, because one bad apple still ruins the bunch - but I am not deceiving you. Try as hard as I might, I can't think of a single feminist who would be willing to exercise self-reflection in the feminist movement, and would stick to the core ideas of feminism. At one point I was almost coerced into a he said - she said rape situation after a gender studies student I went on a date wirh in my early years decided that I wasn't supportive enough of feminism - we explicitly met up to debate about this. She threatened me with rape. I threw her ass out, abd thankfully she didn't go to the police - but she did threaten me. I haven't touched her.

[–]PaladinGamer5630 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Well, what is exactly feminism, please define this in your own way? What are exactly the unfair advantages? Are you a woman or a man? This question can further help me on how you view feminism. Are you aware of the "broken arguments" some feminists are proposing? Are their any modern feminists that are actually aware of the gender inequality in developing countries, and are taking action or advocating for them? Are their indeed radical feminists that no longer stick to the ideologies of feminism, but are actually just promoting the idea of patriarchy? If near absolute gender equality must be established, are you willing to accept that women should be drafted to the military? Personally, I don't want women to be drafted, even though I may be anti-feminists, I only bring up that point to destroy annoying and illogical feminists. Okay, so these are some of my questions. Perhaps, you may have some ideas on how to answer them.

[–]BlatantNapping0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hi, there's a lot here so I'll try to touch a little on everything. I'm a cishet woman, I'm 33, and I'm white in America.

I agree with the google and Wikipedia definitions of feminism. That it involves advocating for causes that bring equality between women and men.

I think the biggest things making women unequal in Western society are internalized feminine vs masculine ideals. That women are seen as weaker, less smart, more emotional. This effects men, too, in what gets brought up as toxic masculinity--if men can't cry, have to be strong, that creates a plethora of social issues. I support advocating for men in those areas, it's just not my fight right now. I do believe, despite toxic masculinity, that society views masculine as the ideal for successful people, so men benefit on the whole and it's harder for women to achieve in the workplace and remain safe from violence. Those are the two issues that are the most important to me because they have affected me personally.

I don't know what you mean exactly by broken arguments. I know that there are people who haven't done their research and speak as feminists without having all the tools to advocate effectively. That's life, in any philosophy or political stance.

The feminists I know do care about massive inequalities in other countries, but it's important for us to raise up the voices of women in those countries instead of speaking for them. I know feminists that love wearing hijab and those who feel it's oppressive. I listen to both and let them speak.

There are radical and disengenous people everywhere in life.

I absolutely think drafting guidelines should be the same for both genders. I don't agree with drafting at all. Even if women were excluded I would advocate against a draft, but it's low on the list of what I perceive to be likely. I've not heard a feminist say that women shouldn't be drafted, so I don't know their arguments but I can't see how they could be made.

Edit: a spelling error

[–]PaladinGamer5630 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you for giving me your answers. I appreciate it. This tells me that there are indeed sensible people, I just think that asking such questions on r/Feminism may get me banned, but I really needed these answers. Oh and I misspelled something. I meant matriarchy not Patriarchy.

[–]pldit2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Feminism seems to pair very well with anti-democratic behaviour. Making use of fallacies to validate many assumptions that are just wrong. Feminism is not equalty, its just a sexist movement like any other, and because of that it must be fought, in this case, with good reasoning and good sense.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Bless women like you. Im a guy and the same thing happened to me - I was super polite and all that.

​

Men don't hate women in the manner that toxic feminism hates men nowadays. It used to be about actual empowerment for women, but now it's about defaming men.

[–]poorbanishedoneofeve38 points39 points  (1 child) | Copy

No. You are not alone. Toxic Feminism has hurt women terribly. In my “old age”, I’ve come to see the truth in this statement: “The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.” Your society is only as strong as your woman. Women have such tremendous strength in our own way. But I’m not an influencer of thought. This’s just my humble opinion being an older woman who sees now that the things I heard/saw/thought as a younger woman were untrue. A terrible lie. And I’m not the only one who feels like this but I’m willing to speak of it. For what it’s worth. I’m just going to wait for the shrill comments to appear. No. You’re not alone.

[–]trash622 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I wish you would have a nice chat with my mom, actually, pretty much all the baby boomers. :)

The worst thing feminism did, IMO, was create a bitter and miserable war (based on untruths and major gaslighting) between the two genders.

Feminism, not women, FEMINISM did this.

[–]khaleesicroft14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

No you are not! Fellow antifeminist women: unite!

[–]einskisson12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

nope, you're not alone - i'm with you (and men).

[–]VestigialHead18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't worry you are not alone. A lot of the women my age disagree with feminism and want actual equality instead. I am close to 50 and it seems that many of the women who started out as strong feminists have now seen it goo way too far.

It will have some serious issues for the next few generations. Lower birthrates are not good for a country. Will end up with not enough people to fill the positions needed to support countries. Immigration will likely be the only answer to this whether good or bad.

[–]ColoradoLady727 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nope, you're not alone.

[–]nicolina-6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

i’m with you my dude. feminism is a toxic ideology that anyone with basic knowledge should be able to see through.

[–]Argawara4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

You're not alone. I'd consider myself a feminist if it meant what it was supposed to mean - women standing for equality between men and women,not toxic behavior towards men and women who are not feminist.

[–]Freeze_Wolf1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Finally, someone who gets this! I am not a feminist, but I just want total equality. The world would be a much better place.

[–]Aauo26883 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I’m a 31-year old American woman and despise it so much.

[–]cracksniffer6663 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Based, and realitypilled

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

You’re not alone at all!!! And we’re seeing the effects on men. They’re being so emasculated. We should celebrate our differences instead of trying to out do each other.

[–]vviviann2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Quite young compared to some here, I’m 19 and I genuinely hate what Feminism is right now. I often feel like a black sheep with my girl power friends because of it though

[–]QueenSnowLeopard2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are definitely not as alone as you are told.

[–]Lady_Airam2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nope. High five! Squad where you attt

[–]BlondieMonster892 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I’m[30F] with you here. I was all about feminism and Gloria Steinem/riot grrrl/NOW etc etc as a teen/young adult but the more I delved into the feminist community the less I identified and supported it.

My belief in education equality, access to accurate health info and treatment, bodily autonomy and that men and women can work together in all types of industries never changed, and to this day I still feel this way.. but what really turned me off were the attitudes towards casual sex, body positivity, the definition of “empowerment”,reliance on false statistics and anecdotal evidence, and what Christina Hoff Summers accurately describes as “female chauvinism “.

I wasn’t seeing a movement/belief system that was truly focused on practical solutions to the unique issues women face all over the world.

Everything became about mirroring male chauvinism and calling it “empowering”,disregarding physical health to the point we applaud morbid obesity while berating anyone underweight as an enemy , allowing anti Semitic and racist individuals to lead,parroting the same debunked statistics such as the wage gap and failing to discuss important issues with any sense of nuance.

I used to stubbornly stand behind the title of “feminist” but that eventually ended as I couldn’t stand behind the dishonesty.

[–]poorbanishedoneofeve2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

As I stated, I’m not afraid to say that it was all a Lie that women and men my age attached themselves. Look what it has wrought: Family disruptions, Divorce, Emasculated Men, Masculine Women, etc. It has destroyed the foundation of Society and that Foundation is the Family. We bought into a terrible Lie and I’m not afraid to say so.

Check out this book by Dr. Carrie Gress titled “The Anti-Mary Exposed”. Her research was/is excellent. If your Mother and others want to know how we reached where we are now, this’s the book to start the journey. Thank you for responding.

[–]Zhyttya1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Might seem inappropriate, but I'm an anti feminist. In the eyes of mordem feminism that is. The latter blew out of purpotion in a completely rediculous way and they follow a non existent logic. I rly don't understand what these women want. Oh FYI, I'm a woman, 26 yo.

[–]thundarod1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

My wife is neutral-anti feminist, she raised an interesting point. There is a benchmark in being a "man" almost every male has felt "less of a man" at some point, where as she has never felt less of a woman, she doesn't feel she is a powerful woman, or an independent woman, she just feels powerful and/or independent.

We talked further a out it and the closest we could agree on was... If you have kids and your exhausted after a horrible run, you give them the ipad and chicken nuggets just to have a break. You then feel like a bad parent or less than what you should be. Guilty. Men feel this feeling for a multiple of reasons for living, not as strong as I should be, don't know how to fix a car, don't earn alot of money. All these can commonly make men you feel less of a man. Do you feel less of a woman because you don't know how to sew, or bake etc.

This kind of reinforced our belief that the equation of equality is just significantly flawed period.

[–]ZeldaNut930 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm really new to Reddit, so I cant exactly answer that. I cant even count myself cuz I'm a guy. But they're out there, in general. I have a friend that sees it in a very similar light. And there are a couple youtubers. Whether they're on reddit or not, I'm not sure. I know my friend isnt. But I dont know about the youtubers.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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