Does TRP exaggerate the smv of older guys?

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August 20, 2018

It is often emphasized how women's smv drastically declines once they reach a certain age ie the wall. However from what I can tell men aren't much better, most middle aged men I come into contact with are fat and balding, even many guys in their 30s or even late 20s. Obviously good looking older guys do exist but they are the minority, just like milfs.

They mentioned that study where a woman's peak age for online dating is 18 while for men it is 50 but I feel there were other factors at play in that study. I mean it's often mentioned how online dating only works if you're particularly good looking, yet very few 50 year olds are. Also, once you get older your social circle gets older too and meeting women, particularly young hot ones, becomes more and more difficult.

Can someone explain?

Post Information
Title Does TRP exaggerate the smv of older guys?
Author Believeinyourflyness
Upvotes 57
Comments 61
Date 20 August 2018 04:39 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askTRP
Original Link
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Red Pill terms found in post:
sexual market valuethe wallthe red pill

[–]1jacques_cousteau00749 points50 points  (6 children) | Copy

SMV is not appearance. It is not attractiveness.

It is women’s perception of your Sexual Market Value.

There are some factors that contribute to higher SMV that older guys bring to the table that younger guys don’t.

-Career stability

-Relationship experience

-Travel experience

-Older guys (should) just get it

You’re never too old to have a SMV advantage, but younger guys own the appearance/physical SMV game.

[–]JamalChic5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Women don't care about your career; there are more women with education than men at this point.

They don't care about your relationship experience relative to your looks. Women will date a hot asshole even if he is demonstrably shit and a horrible person and rebuke the guy who is objectively better in that sense.

Traveling is irrelevant and does virtually zero for attraction.

Smv is mostly looks and you lose that with age. Sorry , but the data is against you. If yoynf women perceived older men as higher smv, that's who they'd be going for. But no, all the data shows that women contact men who are in their age range .

[–]BostonPillParty2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy


SMV is a formula, and looks, genetics, appearance are parts but not the sum of all parts.

I hate when I see people complaining about their looks because it shows me they have not worked to increase the other facets of SMV.

[–]pcps4 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy

I hate when I see people complaining about their looks because it shows me they have not worked to increase the other facets of SMV.

I'm rich and successful but let me tell you a secret - you cannot negotiate desire.. the best sex is when girl really wanna fuck you - and this is based on your physical appearance...

[–]Pluglord3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Desire doesn't only come from physical attraction. If the girl percieves you as alpha and a fun ride, she'll be just as wet for you as she is for the hot guy.

[–]clausternn1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

How does travel experience add to your SMV? I don't see how it would realistically do that.

Should I just start forcing my travel stories into conversation? Go like "where is a place you would love to go?" -- "France" -- "Oh yeah I've been to Paris twice, there was one time when blah blah blah"

[–]CainPrice123 points124 points  (16 children) | Copy

Yes. Men at age 35 do not get pussy just for being male and age 35. In fact, a 35 year old loser trying to pick up girls at a bar or club next to all of the 25 year old guys looks pathetic. Most guys in their 30s and 40s suck.

However, men at age 35 who have been working out for 10 years, have a great job with their shit together, a decade of interesting experiences, lots of interesting hobbies and shit to talk about, and well-practiced social skills and a developed social network are a hundred times more successful with women than they were at age 25, and a hundred times better with women than some cute 25 year old who hasn't done anything with his life yet trying to pick up girls.

[–]askmrcia34 points35 points  (2 children) | Copy

And to add on to this comment, this is how men's value continue to rise.

So even if a guy is average in looks, as long as he has status, money and a Decent personality he will be fine on the dating market.

Women? Well, majority of their value is on looks. So most men don't give a shit how nice, educated, professional or how much money they have as they age. If they are not attractive then not many valuable men are going to want to commit to them.

[–]pcps4 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

Women? Well, majority of their value is on looks. So most men don't give a shit how nice, educated, professional or how much money they have as they age. If they are not attractive then not many valuable men are going to want to commit to them.

same with a man - if you are not attractive, she can be attracted to you based on your money and status but primal raw desire is not present...

[–]askmrcia0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes true, but it doesn't matter. She's still going to want the guy due status and money. The ugliest rappers, pro athletes and entertainers will pull more then a struggling model.

[–]kylerosa2110 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy


This is the important caveat with the SMV graph. Rollo speaks on this also - you won’t magically become high value as you age... you become high value because as you age, you’re improving yourself in various ways (hopefully)

Edit: caveat, not difference

[–]Original_Dankster2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

A big part of it is, as a fit, affluent, well groomed man in your late 30s and even 40s, you outshine all competition. The SMV degradation of the majority of middle aged men is actually your ally as a TRP-aware (and TRP-practicing) male.

[–]CalvinRichland2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well said.

[–]Transmigratory2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy


As men get older, the bar to be successful with women also increases. Though, not having the body/face of a super old dude as you age also helps.

That said, I reckon guys who are 35 HAVE TO have something going on as unlike their 25 year old counterparts, they won't be given the benefit of the doubt that they'll eventually go into something. It will be expected that they have already gone into something.

To them, the pro of older guys is that know whether he's done something worthwhile or if they've stayed hot as opposed to using mental calculations to determine if he will.

[–]morescoobysnacks 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

That said, I reckon guys who are 35 HAVE TO have something going on as unlike their 25 year old counterparts

Nope they don't. None of this shit matters. Building sexual attraction is the same if you're 18 or 60. It doesn't require all of this. RP likes to copy and re-label pickup concepts like frame, but they fuck up whenever it comes to this bullshit about life experience and hobbies. That stuff is for your own confidence, not turning a woman on.

[–]Transmigratory0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Its an open secret TRP does mess up with some concepts due to the various different definitions of what makes RP to some posters. However, we're just tricking ourselves if we're going to think picking up women from different stages of life is going to be the same.

When you see women fawning over older men, you'll find the common thing is that they all have something going on in their lives. Younger men aren't strictly held to this standard as they're perceived as the same i.e. he's not expected to have much going on as he's got time or he's in the same boat as her.

Confidence can only get you so far. RP, PUA and other aspects of the manosphere all have one thing in common: confidence is not enough. Money/status does play a huge role, especially as a older guy.

If you have an average 25 year old and an average 60 year old, both have the same things going in in their lives. In no scenario can you expect the 60 year old to "out-pick up" the 25 year old.

Plus for older men, they'll need to deal with the "old man" shit tests which while beatable is still going to be harder than any shit test a younger guy will go through. The exception being the ones who've got something going on, or the ones who look very young.

[–]morescoobysnacks 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

You're wrong about almost everything you said, but I'm not here to coach your ass.

[–]Transmigratory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If I want to be coached on how to be delusional, I'll get in touch with you.

[–]endertheend 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

So, basically men at 35 who just find the red pill, maybe after a divorce, are fat, and maybe dont have their shit together, should give up. . .got it.

You heard it boys, pack it up and go home, pussy is over for you if you're just coming here and in your 30's, all that work you'll need to do isnt going to be worth it in the end. u/CainPrice and u/Believeinyourflyness said so, and over a hundred people agree so it MUST be true.

Nevermind that there are EC's who started this later in than even 35 and still bang hot 20 year olds into their 50's.

No No, you must give up now, go back to the blue pill forever. Nenvermind that there are 40 year olds that pull 19 year olds constantly (at least where I live) who don't have their shit together either. Just give up now dear readers.

Once you reach 35, your life is OVER!


This is what op and a lot of people lurking seem to want to hear, instead of spending the time putting in the work needed.

[–]lord-denning0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hah, point made. Can I ask what is it that those 40 year old men in your area possess that makes them so successful? I assume a combination of being in great shape, socially confident, relaxed around women?

[–]RylanBlackwood0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

However you can't communicate your smv very clearly in those first social interactions with women. You need to talk to a bloke a little before you understand he's successful. In some social situations you don't even talk, like on a dance floor. Sorry but no man in his 30s has shit on me when it comes to pulling girls on nights out.

[–]CainPrice5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

The majority of picking up girls is not done by wordlessly dancing over to them in the middle of a crowded dance floor, grinding against them, and them going home with you because you're hot. Eventually, there's a point where you have to go somewhere and talk to them.

Many a girl gets very pissed off when the guy who really got her motor running on the dance floor turns out to be awkward or boring when they go somewhere to talk.

Now obviously, an older guy in his 30s can't be ugly and starting to go bald or gray and have visible facial wrinkles as he ambles his way up to a 21 year old at the club. You still have to look good. We're talking 30s guy, not 50s guy here.

[–]Big_Red_suppository22 points23 points  (0 children) | Copy

I went camping over the weekend. Nothing went wrong, it was a great time. Fished off a kayak, cooked good food. Would it have gone that well for me 10 years ago? Not a cold chance in hell.

I did ok at 20, better at 25 and even better at 30. I'm better at everything I do because I have been doing in longer. Dating is a layup for me at this point because all those mistakes I made the last ten years dialed me in. Also I make more money and drive a better car and play in a better band.

Most dudes let the wheels off the wagon as soon as some chick pops out a kid. Money and time can kill you or save you

[–]red_philosopher22 points23 points  (2 children) | Copy

I didn't believe the SMV of men in TRP until I took my life seriously and improved myself significantly. Then, when I started banging 22-24 year old women, I became convinced. That's when I started asking women about what they liked about older men, and they all answered the same thing. Experience, stability, control, career.

Never questioned it again.

[–]Believeinyourflyness[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you don't mind me asking where do you meet these young girls as an older guy?

[–]red_philosopher12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

The bar, the grocery store, the library, my dentist's waiting room, tinder, friends of friends, etc. Just have to get your first-impression game on point (dress, grooming, fitness) and slay.

[–]rp262612 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

Men often look better as they get older because the skin toughens up a bit, the features become more defined which makes them look more masculine. They tend to sweat the small stuff less. They have an implied level of wisdom experience and emotional intelligence which is attractive.

Even if they don't look as healthy as they did in their youth there is a manly appeal to a guy that's accepted himself. He's lived the life and overcome everything that's threatened him. He knows what life can throw it him yet he's still standing.

It's different for women even if we're into milfs their fertility level has decreased and we're subconsciously aware. We are wired to reproduce.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's about who can you become. It's not about guys who already are 50 yo and already 2 times divorced with 4 kids and fat rolls and who wear sandals. It's about men in their 20s who can keep their smv way beyond 30s and 40s as long as they stay fit, dress nice, smell good and have a career.

Hope that will make it clear for you what's meant when terps say what they say.

[–]Ekken_8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's that if you're RP'ed by 23 and work on it until you're 50 you can be like vasya or zaitsev. But if you get married at 26 and go back to blue pill, when you get divorced at 31 THEN you're right, those "men" hit the wall hard af.

[–]Senior EndorsedVasiliyZaitzev7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy

Can someone explain?

"Look! Up in the sky! It's the Vasya Signal!"

Yes, I can explain. You do not get pussy just by being older. You get pussy while being older if you (a) are not some weak-minded tavern oaf with a sloping, simian forehead, and (b) if you make yourself exceptional in one or more ways.

Ex. I am 50 and I am not a particularly handsome man - I like to joke that I look like I am made up out of spare dinosaur parts. While that isn't strictly true, other than being tall-ish (6'2") and muscular, I am not conventionally handsome. Nobody looks at me and goes, "There goes a Chad." If I relied on my looks to get laid, I would be spending a lot of time alone. I do have some advantages other than just my height, and I maximize those.

If you are a middle-aged guy and you want to fuck middle-aged women, it's simple - just don't be fat. You will kill it on that basis alone. If you want to fuck women who are hotties, you need to put in the work.

How so?

A - Work on your body. Don't be a fat slob. At worst, be a fit slob. But don't be a slob either.

B - Make yourself exceptional in one or more ways. In my case I write and perform original music and front my own band. And before anyone says "Oh, but that makes it easy for you", it makes things easier, yes, and I had to actually put in the work. I also play co-rec beach volleyball in the summer, which puts me around a lot of young, fit women. As it happens, I'm the 2nd best player on the team behind the guy who went to uni on a volleyball scholarship (evidently, this is a thing on the west coast), so in the milieu I have "status" as a top player.

C - You need to learn how to chat up girls. I Day Game like it's my fucking job. It's a skills-based activity. Do it enough and you will master it - but you must do it. I can talk to the hottest girl you've ever seen and make her perfectly comfortable and flirt with her in a way she enjoys easily. If you haven't made 50 approaches in your life, stop reading and go make 50 approaches. Go over the game film. Think about what went right and what didn't. Adjust your game. Hot, young girls are just like "regular" girls. And after you have acquired skills, you can used really fucked up openers and still make them work.

D - There are 3 types of young women - girls who only want a man near their age +/- 4 years (or whatever), girls who prefer a man near their own age, but are open to an older man, and women who actively prefer an older man.

E - As you get older the overall pool of girls that are attracted to you - and from which pool you should draw dates/mates/plates - will get smaller, but the girls in that pool will really like you.

You will have to put in the work, you will have to Day Game, but the rewards can be rich. My OLTR1 is 22, and I've been tapping that sweet ass since it was 19. There are a few others in the rotation, ranging from 20 to 25, and a few more possibles ranging from 19-29.

I like what I like and I do what I do, and I don't apologize for it.

Further reading:

Older Men, Younger Women: How & When It Can Work

-For Older Men who prefer Younger Women, and vice versa.

Older Men, Younger Women, Part II

-More Fun With Younger Women

[–]morescoobysnacks 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy

You have significantly less success with bar game than day game at your age?

[–]Senior EndorsedVasiliyZaitzev1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I just don’t spend much time in bars. Sometimes I do karaoke which means I get dragged along - that’s how I met OLTR1.

Also, ”If you build it, they will come” so im more of a “destination” as it were.

[–]MeeSeeks218 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

Uncle Vasya, you've mentioned in the past that one of the pools of women you do well with is introverts (as well as tall girls with daddy issues) -- women who probably don't go out or in the usual social scene. What's your advice on accessing this pool in a place like NYC?

[–]Senior EndorsedVasiliyZaitzev1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I Day Game like it's my job. I put myself in places where young women are - when I play volleyball, when I'm playing a gig, when I'm walking down the street, when I'm in coffee shops, museums, libraries, etc.

Sometimes you see introverts out. Ex. If you see a bachelorette party out, look for the girl on the edge, arms folded, not wearing any party bling and looking uncomfortable with her friends drinking. That's paydirt.

[–]abudun794 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

You confuse looks with SMV. Common mistake by people who think they don't have to read the sidebar until they understand it.

But I assume there's some exaggeration. Remember that the majority of the "mortal" red pillers has been raised in the land that's held together by overstatement and hypocrisy.

[–]Zanford4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

In modern Western society, large age differences between adults are mildly taboo (say, 20 year old girl vs 50 year old guy) and there's a stereotype of a creepy older guy and the lame middle age guy (think the sitcom husband stereotype).

Women are herd creatures, and so this taboo lowers older mens' SMV in the eyes of young adult women. They don't want their friends making fun of them for dating an old guy etc. This is probably a bigger uphill factor against older guys than the aging effects of physical looks / health / energy / reproductive ability itself.

If you're older, the best things you can do to offset this are to be fit, dress sharp, groom yourself well, and have lots of interesting routines and stories (your'e older, you should have more travel stories and such). And, as always, preselection / social circle game. An older guy showing up to a party / club / wherever with a young thing on his arm will have a much easier time opening other sets.

The "50 year old peak" meme floating around recently is based on some published academic research using online dating data. And while the research may be better than most, this conclusion might be flawed for any number of reasons, like self-selection (maybe the only 50 year olds on online dating sites are the hottest wealthiest guys, whereas every 20 year old loser guy is on the site).

[–]The__Tren__Train2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

it's not a general principle that men's SMV increases with age... it's more of a possibility.

I know a guy who is in his early 40's... he's been lifting weights for decades, uses steroids, and makes a good deal of money.

his SMV is in the stratosphere... not because of his age, but because of what he has done with his time.

[–]MrGoodStuff052 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

I might get down voted but I'll give you my opinion. It's a cope. Women will, at every single stage of their lives, be able to obtain casual sex easier than men. You can make a tinder profile yourself, and put a picture of a 35 year old man, and a 35 year old woman. The woman will have maybe 10x the matches as a man will.

The advantage older guys have is that they're more stable, got more money, and therefore more viable option to settle down. Women go after these men not because of sexual desire, but to put is simply, to make the beta bux.

That's one of the things that always makes me cringe when reading this subreddit. So many guys mentally ejaculate thinking they'll have their time when they get older... then they find 1 average looking girl who wants to milk their wallets and think they made it in life.

It's almost as delusional as most MGTOW... I read here somewhere that you cannot truly be MGTOW unless you've had a harem full of women and willingly decide to walk away from it. I tend to agree with that.

What we see here lately is a bunch of male hamstering and cope. Life isn't fair. Most people haven't really swallowed the pill here.

[–]anonacnt 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy

You got an upvote from me, my friend.

Older men get approached by younger girls mostly because the bitches want their money, not because they find the men sexy. Denying this and claiming that men peak at 35 is coping.

[–]Believeinyourflyness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I agree with what you just said although I feel that peaking at 35 is definitely a possibility. However FIFTY, as shown by that recent "study", is simply ridiculous.

[–]Believeinyourflyness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Now THAT is what you call a red pill. Take an upvote my friend

[–]Aesthetic_God__1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy


[–]showerthoughtsgenius1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah I think they do

[–]wataDs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Your smv continues to rise if you work on it. With women their youth and beauty are their main tools in attracting a mate. With men its their personalities, frame, professional success, fitness, maturity etc, things that typically get better with age and work. Obviously youth and beauty doesnt quite work the same. Save for fitness. Never stop working at something and the years wont wither you away.

[–]1walawalawa1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's all about game. If your game is solid you'll meet more women and bang more women.

Many girls I meet are in their 20's and I'm early 50's. I'm in great shape and very masculine with solid game.

But....not all girls in their 20's will respond. The point of game is to open more women and keep your SMV high by doing things like: learning game, working out, dressing well, focusing on things that matter to you etc.

[–]SpinPlates1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

TRP exaggerates pretty much everything.

Just because you're single at 35 with no kids doesn't mean 21 year olds want to fuck you immediately.

[–]LifeLikeFire_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

SMV is always about being in the top 20%, so obviously the majority will look inferior

[–]RedHoodhandles1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's more like 'older TRP guys exaggerate their smv'.

[–]lapeparoja0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

How old are you? How old are the girls you fuck?

[–]Believeinyourflyness[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

  1. Usually 20s although most recent one was 32

[–]lapeparoja1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I am going to assume you are late 20s , believe me I used to think the same, I was 33 dating 33-35 and I thought young girls were "inmature" and that I was not able to get them because I was old. Now i am kicking myself in the teeth for all the wasted time. Young girls can be as dumb or as smart as a older woman, and they usually have a happier, carefree personality. The important nugget is, if you are 40 or 50 and you are still "hot" (nice body, nice hair style) and you are not broke ( nice car a OK place) you will score plenty of young pussy. You have to try, a lot but you will score.

[–]BittyMitty0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Not considering the failures, the key words are:
Status and money.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think you are misinterpreting things a fair bit. A lot of the SMV you are talking about is relative. If you are a peak SMV guy at 50 you aren't likely going to pull chicks that are 21 unless you're a multi-millionaire or a top 0.1% sort of guy. But relatively speaking you are in a very good position.

Look around at the guys that are 30 that are in great shape, dress well, have great hair or pull off a shaved head without looking like a soy bean. Those guys are at the absolute peak of being able to get what they want, girls from 21 to death are all over them.

Even those flabby out of shape and ugly 30 years olds have something going for them though. They are the last musical chair and someone will want to sit down with them. Just don't be one of those guys.

[–]xlithernigga0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Guys dont get ugly as they age. Maybe if you bald but other then that you dont get ugly unless you get fat.

With that a man will be at a similar attractiveness no matter his age. While the other factors such as career, life experience etc grow with age. So think of it from a womens perspective. Why go for a guy who doesnt have anything to offer but looks nice when you can have both.

[–]Nitsujsith0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I like to think of it from a different perspective. Humans aren’t supposed to live as long as we do (thanks science) therefore a human with longevity has shown he is able to live through the challenges of life. Therefore, his sperm is higher quality and also probably has leadership abilities (although not always).

I know this is most likely bro science but who would you see as a better leader just based off looks? A jacked 35+ year old or a ripped 20 year old. I’m going with the old man if I’m a caveman.

[–]1atticusfinch19730 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Remember also as you get older most men let themselves go while the ones that keep themselves in shape and actually keep their social skills etc are way further ahead proportionally.

I was at a local water park with my kids a few weeks ago and simply because I don't have a spare tire, slightly visible abs and definitely work out I was getting looks from tons of women twenty years younger. I was shocked at the proportion of fat balding guys who obviously just gave up.

To be the top 20% (even top 10%) when you're my age (mid 40's) is WAY easier than being in the top 20% when you're 25.

[–]gelstony0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm mid 40's, separated with kids. I am regularly approached by women in their early to mid 20's - if anything I seem to attract this demographic more than anything else. Some of it is genetic: I am over 6" and I look young for my age. One of the first questions these young girls ask me is what age I am. I always get them to guess - they always guess mid 30's - I just agree with them. Most of it is stuff that I worked on or that makes me unique: I have lifted for years (I am not built just "athletic" looking), I dress well, I play music and have a bit of a "rock star" look going on (women have told me this several times), I have an interesting job that puts me in a position of influence and is well respected in my country, I am confident and (most of the time) I have a IDGAF attitude going on. My looks are maybe slightly above average.

In my experience women don't give a crap what age you are as long as you look after yourself and you have something interesting about you.

A lot if younger guys in the comments above are obsessing about details, statistics, etc. Stop doing this! From life experience: the sidebar is right! Lift, look after yourself, be interesting, don't be unattractive- that's really all there is to it...

....and everything that uncle Vasya says is right. :-)

[–]BusterVadge0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm 44, have my shit together (good career, side business, etc). The difference between 44 year old me and 24 year old me is that I give a fuck a whole lot less and just do my own thing. I'm in great shape and am plating women in their 20's. My social circle's pretty decent, as I have to talk to new people all the time for my career and have made a lot of friends that way.

I definitely am not the person I was 20 years ago. This version of me gets a ton more out of life (pussy, money, good feelings) than the 24 year old version of me did. I am definitely not as "good looking" as I was at 24, but I'll be damned if I don't get a LOT hotter women now than I did back then.

The mistake that many older guys make is that they let life control them rather than being in control of their own life. If you're in your 20's now, take control of your life and focus all of your efforts into self improvement. It makes all of the difference in the world.

[–]JamalChic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Older men demonstrably have less value

[–]wheresMYsteakAt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Nah I don't think so. I think we peak somewhere around, what is it now? 60 or 70.

[–]mrpoopistan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You do get that SMV is not just adding up a bunch of scores like you're playing D&D, right?

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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