Conflict between my world view and RP

nyrp · 2014-01-07T05:43:33+00:00

I embrace meekness to a certain extent as meekness is far less harmful than power.

Think of ways in which meekness is more harmful than power. There are many.

In many situations, meekness allows the most evil aspects of power to accumulate unchallenged.

My philosophy is that power is evil.

It's only evil when used for evil. My parents used their power to earn a living and provide me food and a home as a child. There is nothing evil about that power.

I want her to want me for ... the way I treat her.

The way she wants you to treat her is to get her pussy wet. Do it.

lightfire409 · 2014-01-07T06:18:21+00:00

I used to think like you as well. You can try and be the change you want to see in the world, but its akin to slamming your head against a brick wall.

Trying to start a relationship with a girl without flirting or being sexual is idiotic, to be frank. I get where you are coming from, i really do, but its not a way to start a healthy human relationship, because humans are sexual creatures.

And for the love of god, you don't just turn on the sex with a chick. Girls categorize you really fucking fast, so if you try and turn on the sexual charm later it wont work. You have to have a consistent frame!

You need to get some actually real world experience, then form your opinions on how to effectively form relationships with girls. You can get to know girls really well, but make sure you're getting your dick wet in the process. Why restrain yourself to sex later? Why get to know someone then sex? Why not sex ASAP?

Also, I'd like to address you're concerns with power. There is more or less a static amount of power in the world, and if you aren't going to grab it, someone else is, and its likely they aren't as ethical as you. If you want to change the world for the better, you need power.

Circ-Le-Jerk · 2014-01-07T09:11:35+00:00

Listen, TRP has improved on my life greatly. I've always been alpha-ish, but just value in re-framing is tremendous. You need to understand one element of this space -- take what you can. This place is extreme to make a point. No one can possibly be "on" all the time, especially with TRP. No one is a following TRP to the T. In fact, doing so would probably make you a shit-fuck no one would like, including yourself. I've met actual real TRP guys in real life, several of them since I live in a major city. I'll tell you they fall into two categories: 1) The guys that take TRP way too seriously and turn it into a lifestyle. They are the try-hard nerd in disguise types that the rest of reddit stereotypes us as. They are real; they do exist. It's almost ironic, because they aren't actually "themselves' they are just people constantly playing a game by constantly trying to convey how they want the world to see them rather than who they are. 2) Guys that are a part of TRP, but don't live by it. They aren't afraid to be themselves. They aren't always playing a game. They are just fucking normal. Please shoot to be this type of person.

But the point of this place is to present the extreme, sort of like bootcamp. It's to whip you into shape. Then you walk away and think about what you just learned and how think about how you can add this towards your life. It's sort of like reading a book about a martial art that emphasizes "Don't be afraid. Push through weakness. Trust your instinct." Well that sounds all good on paper, but once you start actually applying what you read, it's really not the best advice -- for instance, sometimes you need to be afraid to create that sense of urgency. But the point is, by having that mentality, that's how you make real world progress.

TRP is the book; it frames your mentality. The application of these concepts come out on the field. Eventually you'll realize that everything that is said here isn't absolute, but by thinking it was, it's helped you a lot.

For instance, it's okay to be vulnerable, and it's okay to fall for a woman. But the problem, it's not okay to be vulnerable and fall for a woman as the way you know it now it with your experience. You first have to enter situations thinking that it's not okay to do the two with that mentality. Then you'll learn how to properly be vulnerable like a man.

It's TRPs dirty little secret, and no one will admit it. It's because there are those 2 groups of people. There are those that stick around as hardcore followers that turn it into a way of life, and there are those that only last here half a year tops and then move on after they've figured their shit out.

It's also why this place is hated. You aren't supposed to keep this TRP frame forever like most new people and outsiders would like to think. On the outside they see this as a group of men insisting on a stringent extreme way of life. Instead, you're supposed to think this way for now, make progress, and then figure out how to apply it to your specific situation. But what is most important is to keep this alpha frame for now until you actually experience being an alpha. Then from there you can start picking and choosing.

martianmarvin · 2014-01-13T03:05:16+00:00

I'm responding because I am like you and I think that I have reconciled the seeming conflicts that you describe. If you think I haven't, let me know. I'll take each point in the order you provide.

1) "Validation"

To me, the entire point of relationships are to share experiences, validation and information. So right there 2 of the 3 reasons I want to enter relationships are cut out.

Like you, my default mode is to be as open as possible with other people. When I engage women this way, however, they quickly lose interest in any sort of relationship. Being less forthcoming can actually extend the relationship longer, allowing for more sharing of experiences etc. down the road. The sort of experiences you share matter, too. If you're open with women about your weaknesses, for example, you've likely damaged the prospect of developing a deeper relationship. (It's also possible to move things too quickly with men you wish to befriend, who can get weirded out by your being too open too soon. Take it easy. Life isn't a movie where people become friends or lovers in ninety minutes.)

Moreover, if you're like me, you might be emphasizing the verbal aspect of relationships too much. A lot of who you are, and what you can share with others, isn't so much what you can say about yourself but how you handle yourself in the moment. Think of ballroom dancing: You demonstrate decisiveness, for example, without even saying a word. Now extend that basic idea to all of your actions. Simply by being present, and by acting, you share yourself.

I'm not sure what you mean by validation. If you mean encouragement, then there's no conflict here, either. I encourage people, but I encourage them to be better than they are, not to settle with their current state. This applies to both men and women.

2) "Being a challenge"

It's about getting deep into that person, almost like a psychoanalyst would, and getting to know their issues and maybe even helping them with them or at least making them feel like they were heard and that someone cares. This, in my world view, is the most challenging and rewarding aspects of relationships.

I've had this sort of relationship with men, and it can be rewarding. Not so with women. How has it worked out for you? It seems to me that it can only successfully work one way, i.e., she talks and you listen. But a woman could do that for her just as well as you do -- better, even. What's the point?

On the other hand, maybe you talk while she listens. That doesn't sound fun for her, listening to some man's problems. How long does she stick around for that? And, by the way, why don't you just do that with a male friend?

The ideal you're describing concerns same-sex friendships, not potentially romantic relationships with the opposite sex. Sure, your description might apply to some marriages after they have been going on for a long time, and in which husband and wife have basically become best friends -- but that doesn't concern you right now, does it?

This fight for dominance in the bedroom is what I would view as the analogy to the emotional challenge. However, I view the 2 quite separate. When I am talking to a girl I don't show my sexual side at all because I view it has having no real function

I don't know what you mean. Being dominant isn't sexual -- not in the sense of being a "bedroom" thing. Think of ballroom dancing again. When you dance a waltz, presumably you're the one leading. That's dominance. You make the calls. You decide not only where she goes, but how and when. And yet, it's not sex. And guess what? She likes it. Which brings me to this:

The conflict I see with RP here is that, it seems that one must act like the sexual animal at all times. There's no room to be a higher headed more civilized man.

As I just said, you can be dominant and yet not be having sex, or be leading to sex. I should know because this is how I handle myself now. And it's a lot of fun not only for me, but for the women with whom I interact. It's like dancing: I lead, she follows, and we both get a kick out of it. A while back I took a dancing class and the women complimented me for knowing what I wanted and just doing it, while all of the other guys repeated the basic step indecisively. Take charge. The basic idea can be applied to other areas. If something needs to be done by a man, I just do it, and the women in the room appreciate that I don't have a conference with them first.

3) "Power"

My philosophy is that power is evil. Because of that I try to reject any sort of powerful position I can. I embrace meekness to a certain extent as meekness is far less harmful than power.

I agree with Lord Acton that power tends to corrupt. But power itself isn't evil. On the contrary, the use of power is the only way to counter the abuse of power.

If power is evil, then all we should expect to see in the world is tyranny in every human relationship, from king-subject to parent-child. And yet, we see that some people use power for the good of those over whom that power is exercised. Moreover, we see that some abuses of power are actually prevented by people who are decidedly not meek but, rather, powerful in their own right.

Power is simply the ability to bring about some sort of change. You have the power to shove a little boy. It makes a big difference whether you're shoving him in front of a train, or out of the train's path. If he's about to get hit by a train, I would hope that you don't "reject any sort of powerful position" in that situation. If you're meek, the boy dies.

On the other hand, if you're thoroughly evil, then by all means, reject power. Be as meek as you can. In which case, why are you concerned with developing relationships with people? If you're thoroughly evil, you can only do them harm.

4) "Value"

I dislike the idea of any showing off.

Then don't show off. But if you improve yourself, people will notice. They might not notice everything good about you, but that's normal.

I don't go around talking about how great I am. But I sometimes get compliments anyway, because sometimes I do things well. And I seek to do things well because I think that they're worth doing well, not because I want people to notice me and like me.

I want her to want me for my ideas, sentiments and the way I treat her.

First, what good are ideas and sentiments if they don't translate into actions? Talk is cheap. I think that what you're getting at boils down to the third thing, "the way I treat her."

Second, yes, she will either want you or not want you depending on how you treat her. But her preferences with regard to such treatment might not perfectly align with what you think her preferences are, or should be.

Summary

In sum, there's nothing wrong with being a masculine man. Most women appreciate masculine men, especially since such men are in short supply nowadays. And if you work to become more masculine, you'll probably find that you're more satisfied with yourself. Chances are, your relationships with women will have the potential to become deeper, just not in the same way your relationships with men are, but that's part of the fun of life. Moreover, your self-improvement will increase your power (physical, intellectual, etc.) and, so long as you maintain your moral character, you will be more likely to use that power for good than evil. And, as a result of such improvement, your value to others will be that much higher, and it will be at least somewhat evident to them, whether you care to show off or not.

AdolfGoldstein · 2014-01-07T05:52:41+00:00

You seem highly introspective - you are focusing inward too much. Go get some experience with girls, bad and good, then reevaluate your outlook.

How do you get experience? Well, you get out there and fail. It makes you smarter and stronger if you have the fortitude to continue.

DukeHollywood · 2014-01-07T09:17:20+00:00

I think you have a bit of an internal conflict with wanting to dominate a woman sexually but then thinking you should be meek and avoid power. I think your natural male instincts (dominant) are conflicting with the way society has programmed you (unless you cater to feminists whims you're a disgusting misogynist so appease us at every turn).

Also, you seem to have the same problem that a lot of intelligent men that are also what we may label gamma have.

You want a woman to seek out, discover and cherish what is so amazing about you and your personality and views. This is a dream, best you kill it.

It's your role as the man to initiate with her and create the attraction. If you do that successfully then down the road you can slowly let those other sides of you out and have her grow to appreciate you're intellect.

Basically, you have the sequencing all wrong and you need to embrace your masculinity without feeling bad about it.

[deleted] · 2014-01-07T11:33:00+00:00

Go out and do shit that makes you happy. You will find your need to rely upon your "philosophies" and your cognitive dissonance rapidly goes away. For example, all it takes is ONE occurence of you wielding power for good... then you will throw out this ridiculous "power is evil" notion.

You are way in your head - none of this shit actually matters in the read world. You're likes and dislikes are 99% of the time just rationalizations. You don't feel comfortable and confident enough to show off and be that dominant guy in the club, so as a result, you construct this moral idea that "displaying high value is wrong and superficial". You can't get the women you want, so you decide "women are superficial and I'm disgusted".

Mhmm. If Tori Black was on your dick right now, would you be disgusted at how women care about status? If she said "bend me over and pull my hair hard, make it hurt" would you not do it because "power and dominance is wrong". You have these dissonant thoughts because you aren't going out and actually applying this shit. You are just thinking about how it "should be".

I'm not trying to be a dick. But you don't get to have a "philosophy" on women and power and dominance and value... if you've never experienced a statistically significant quantity of either. All of your judgments are essentially rationalizations and projections - all the ideas you have about sexuality and what is "right" are what RP would call hamstering. They are invented to make you feel better about the fact you are a virgin and not successful / powerful with women. Cold hard RP, man.

Once you are in the pussy, being "powerful" or "dominant" doesn't seem immoral, it seems natural. Once you are making money, all of a sudden capitalism is good. Once you are in positions of power helping your friends out and stopping bad people from abusing their power... all of a sudden, it seems as if it is natural for you to be powerful. It is only when you lack the money/power/women that these things appeal shallow and wrong. If you are a young guy especially, you still have to live life in order to find out what your moral code is or isn't. You have to build a moral code by facing reality through your actions. Get off the internet, get out of your head, and then after you have some real experiences with power and women, then you can formulate your grand theory of morality.

Beardsman2 · 2014-01-07T06:49:34+00:00

Power is amoral. It's on a scale from weak to strong, not evil to good.

Not seeking power is shifting responsibility for yourself and your surroundings to others, its weak and pathetic. If you actually cared about yourself and the world you would try and influence it.

Archwinger · 2014-01-07T16:58:21+00:00

If your personal philosophy is failing to get you everything you want in life, isn't it time to reevaluate certain aspects of your philosophy? Or do you believe it's morally right to be less than your full potential and to fail at a bunch of things? Do you derive satisfaction from being less than you can be because you can say you held true to some set of ideals you made up yourself that don't work for you?

Here's the thing: The Red Pill does not conflict with basic honesty and openness. That's a misconception that newcomers and a lot of outside detractors like to throw around. The Red Pill strongly promotes honesty. There's no Red Pill "rule" that says you have to lie or withhold the truth from a woman, or from anybody.

Validation: It's perfectly okay to validate a woman -- when warranted. Where chumps fail is when they gush complements and emotions from day one, before the woman has ever proven her value. These guys aren't delivering honest validation -- they're delivering unearned validation for the purpose of manipulating the woman into liking them. They're the liars. Red Pill men give a woman emotional validation when she's done something actually worthy of validation. That's honesty.

Unearned validation is just feel-good bullshit, and it's worthless. And the people you validate treat it as worthless. As they should.

"Being a challenge": This is really just an extension of #1. Don't give validation and commitment when it's not warranted. That's dishonest and manipulative. Women hate that. Emotion-junkie women like the attention, but they won't date or fuck you.

All that junk about being a sexual animal you wrote is more of the same -- just be honest. If you want a woman so badly, your groin is on fire, be honest that you want sex. Tell her how you want to fuck her. Maybe she'll say yes. Maybe not. But keeping your feelings to yourself and pretending you don't desire a woman sexually, while acting like just a friend and a nice guy (hoping she'll eventually like you) -- that's dishonest and manipulative. That's withholding the truth.

Being open and sexual is honest. That leads to shared experiences. Lying and withholding your intentions leads to failure.

Power: People who say they don't want power are lying to themselves and others about the truth: they are weak tools who can't get into a powerful position, but don't want to admit that, so they instead say that they shun power.

Everybody likes to be associated with powerful people. Everybody wants power. Being a strong, capable, socially apt, successful, confident guy inherently makes you more powerful than a guy who lacks those traits.

You don't want to work out and get fit and healthy? Because being strong and healthy makes you more powerful than others. You don't want to get educated, right? Because developing your intelligence and your knowledge base and getting a degree that opens doors for you makes you more powerful than others. You don't want a successful and high paying job, right? Because that money and status makes you more powerful than others. You definitely don't want to develop any social aptitude or any network or circle of friends, right? Because socially apt guys with connections are way more powerful than others.

You just want to live under a rock and be as invisible as possible, right?

Value: You don't want to talk to your friends in front of others, because doing so demonstrates that you have friends and are therefore valuable? Seriously?

You've got some misconceptions about The Red Pill here. TRP isn't about showing off. It's about just plain becoming an awesome man. You can't help it if, in the process of going about your day and doing things you enjoy, you make friends, become well-known, and get good at some things. You're okay developing your "ideas" and your "sentiments" and showing those off, but God forbid you demonstrate any amount of basic social aptitude by talking to a friend in front of a woman. That's disgusting.

[deleted] · Tue Jan 7 5:52:52 2014 UTC

[permanently deleted]

mrust · 2014-01-07T15:11:27+00:00

I really like this post and I think it's great that you can see the conflict for what it is in such detailed terms.

The issue here is that your beliefs have been formed by exposure to influences that do not have your best interest at heart.

I think that if you work on exploring that conflict and diving even deeper, stepping out of your comfort zone, you will eventually see some results and that will cause a shift in your beliefs. The conflict can be resolved but only if you can form some distinctions as you have already begun to do.

Here are some ideas to explore:

When it comes to expressing yourself, practice COVERT communication. It's clear that you want to share a lot of yourself but women especially operate covertly rather than overtly. I suspect you cannot even read their signals, which means there is a whole level of expression that you are blind to.

Also keep in mind that oversharing IS negative because you are either taking up all of the conversation or implicitly expecting reciprocation which can make people feel resentful. You are leaning in and placing expectations on people rather than just vibing and maximizing the enjoyment of the group.

To me, being a challenge is about opening up to another person and learning to love and trust each other.

That's not what being a challenge means. You've redefined a term and knocked down a strawman. Read Cialdini's Influence to understand why being a challenge is psychologically effective.

power is evil

Sounds like you don't want any personal responsibility over your circumstances, because that's what power is. I can accept your other comments as preferences for how you would like the world to be, but this one is toxic. Honestly, you really need to work on this one first because this kind of binary thinking will stall any progress you can make. Do you think Jesus was powerful? What about other people who are known for their good works? Fame is a sort of power. Could they have had an impact if no one knew who they were?

Your comments on value are spot on. You don't want to show off because that will alienate people. Don't change this aspect until you really understand covert or sub-communication.

[deleted] · 2014-01-07T15:22:37+00:00

My philosophy is that power is evil.

Wow, you should work into that. I'll personally prefer to think that with a great power comes great responsability ( props to uncle Ben). Power is just power, not inherently evil or good, each person may make a good or bad use of that power. Being dominant isn't bad if you are a good person, many people prefer to follow a good strong leader rather than handling the pressure of being the ones in charge.

Giving power away is a great way to be dissapointed, sure, it's comfortable now, but when people starts doing things that doesn't look to good for you with that power, you'll regret it. Remember that most people won't ask you to give them that power, and they don't have your best interests in mind when using it, most of them will just accept it make use of it and move on. Ultimately the responsability it's always yours, since nobody asked you to give up your power for them.

[deleted] · 2014-01-07T18:15:10+00:00

TRP made both me and my wife happier, no one was hurt. I don't see evil in that, I see good.

FortunateBum · 2014-01-08T06:47:55+00:00

I know where you're coming from. I too was there once. Here's what you need to know:

A woman you enjoy sex with will never be a companion. That's the stuff of romance movies. There is no such thing as love. (See this article from the sidebar: http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/27/women-in-love/)

When you meet a woman you want to have sex with, do everything in your power to have sex with her. DO NOT deviate from that singular goal. It will only make your life miserable.

If you ever end up in a relationship (a woman may eventually drag you into one) always know and accept that this person is not a true friend. They are your sexual outlet, your company when your true friends aren't around, and your responsibility.

This is the nature of woman. This is the nature of life. Either accept it or be miserable.

Title	Conflict between my world view and RP
Author	The_BitterTruth
Upvotes	6
Comments	50
Date	January 7, 2014 5:22 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1ulpr6/conflict_between_my_world_view_and_rp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/conflict-between-my-world-view-and-rp.9707 https://theredarchive.com/post/9707