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vaaralinen
[–]KrustyDanmakuFellow 23 points24 points25 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Ever since I was a high schooler, child support always seemed to me like a slap in the face to the dignity of man. It's like people assume by default that a father won't voluntarily choose to stay in his child's life, so the government forces him to give money to the mother to bind him to the household because the government said so. Not because the father loves his child and wants to help them grow and succeed. Besides, just because a man is paying child support, that does NOT necessarily mean he's a respectable, honorable father and/or husband. There's a lot more to being a great father than paying a fee.
To be completely honest, I don't know much about the child support system, as I haven't had an incentive to look much into it yet. However, "child support" as a concept always struck me as one of the countless ways the government forces us to pay for something (like my child is a subscription service), rather than letting humanity voluntarily and naturally run its course
[–]Asleep_Opposite6096 -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Most men pay child support voluntarily. I’ve worked at a divorce attorney’s office and our decent clients had no problem paying child support. If the parents are married, it’ll be included in the divorce terms, but the majority of funds aren’t even tracked by the courts if both parties are in agreement.
The system is designed for those that refuse to pay, which is a not insignificant number of fathers. It’s not supposed to be a punishment. Children are expensive and they deserve care even if the parents can’t sort their personal relationship out. Also, women are required to pay child support, too. They can reduce what they owe if they are the primary care giver, of course.
The state doesn’t care about anything until somebody takes somebody else to court. If the two parents agree, they don’t get involved at all.
[–]Practical-Rip6471 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
For them, sexism isn't a demand for justice, fairness or an equal opportunity, it's a weapon to bash men over the head with to gain political power.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Crazies like /u/Adony_ coming in here knowing full well they are being sexist hypocrites aren't any different than the prolife people going into prochoice subs to push buttons. Equality may look different due to biological functions but the closest thing we can get is that if women get abortion as a birth control method then men should also get a paper abortion option to fully walk way without any forced slave labor to the mother that chose to keep the child of her own free will.
[–]Practical-Rip6471 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I totally agree with what you've said about men having the right to paper abortions and about that adony melonfarmer. Every child born should be DNA tested to prove paternity. Any claim for financial support, paternity test. Proof of paternal fraud, mother goes straight to jail. If these measures were brought in, the numbers of abortions would crash, as would divorces, domestic violence and homicide.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah, mandatory paternity tests would be amazing. You know damn well that women would never go for it though. Prove just how badly they lie and cheat.
[–]Practical-Rip6471 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Let's just not ask them. Like you say they naturally lie too much.
[+]Adony_ -9 points-8 points-7 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You sound like a psychopath, stick to these hugboxes because a real life conversation might be too much for you.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Equality sounding like psychopathy to you only shows how sexist you are.
[–]DeathlessWitch 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Bruh
[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
*cough* "Men's rights"
The media: "This just in - a reddit-incel has posted his plans to blow up a women's shelter"
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not much different than all of the shit posting on feminist subreddits. Feminists have gone even farther in the violent threat arena than any MRA posts I've seen.
[–]vaaralinen[S] 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I am actually just chilling at the bar with my buddies Adolph and Joseph, drinking gay people's blood and discussing how to reintroduce lynching
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"You pick women in video games because you want to look at their butt. I pick women in video games because it is my male right to control them. We are not the same." *fixes tie*
[–]vaaralinen[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
post a picture meme and get account suspended and arrest lmao
[–]-Ivar-TheBoneless 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Shit Drake even went as far as to have to pour hot sauce into his used condoms.
[–]Darkwolf90 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Each side has points that should be addressed, the mother, the father and the unborn child are all humans whose right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be addressed and respected. However due to the biological realities of pregnancy it gets complicated. Many pro-lifers effectively discuss it as if you shouldn't even be allowed to kill for self-defense. However pro-choice often ignore the mothers agency and accountability while denying the father and child's rights.
[–]DoppelGangHer88 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
I'm pro-life, volunteer for pro-life organizations and am part of the prolife subreddit and the predominant attitude is that abortion is only acceptable if the life of the mother is at risk.
All 50 states have an exception for the life of the mother.
[–]Darkwolf90 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I agree however to what degree of risk? If its any degree of risk then you would have to accept that women have the right to abort at any point with no restriction. And then there's also the issues of privacy involved in having to require a women to substantiate a risk, which I think she should have to as she's the one with agency in this context. And none of this is actually substantiated as a constitutional right meaning that leaving the states to legislate it can lead to some states denying women their rights. This is a hard question and many are too eager for an easy answer.
[–]DoppelGangHer88 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well, it's the doctor that substantiates the risk, not the woman.
Also, abortion is not a constitutional right, so they're not being denied their rights.
What pro-life arguments have you heard that condemns abortion in "self-defense?"
[–]golden_eyed_cat 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Personally, I heard three arguments that condemn such abortions:
Women potentially pretending to be suicidal due to their pregnancy, in order to get permission for abortion from a psychiatrist, which would allow them to end their child's life.
There could be misdiagnoses, which would result in killing the unborn child when both them and the mother could have been saved.
If a mother agrees to have sex, she agrees to risk dying in childbirth or because of complications with her potential pregnancy.
They, however, can be debunked:
2 and 3. If the mother dies, the unborn child will die with her. Therefore, it's "better" if, say, one misdiagnosed pregnancy is terminated and 101 children are sacrificed in order to save their mothers (if they choose to do so, of course. Nobody should ever be obligated to undergo an abortion), than if 100 children and 100 mothers (almost twice as many people) die suffering, and one mother and her child lives.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
So, if the child yet to born, life could be at risk, tough shit?
[–]DoppelGangHer88 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Why would the solution of a life being at risk to end it pre-emptively?
[–]Asleep_Opposite6096 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
To reduce it’s suffering.
[–]DoppelGangHer88 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And if the doctor's wrong?
[–]Zealousideal_Car_163 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This shit gonna turn the subreddjr into civil war,by dividing pro choice and pro life
[–]vaaralinen[S] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Idk people there seem to realize that either way PC means choice for everyone, and not argue much with each other (not trolls though) under related posts...
Uh... 'PC' means Personal Computer. Duhhhh.
[–]SuperSupremeKai 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
or political correctness.
[–]Zealousideal_Car_163 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
*subreddit
[–]TechniKal45 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
=.
[–]The_Dapper_Balrog 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Still a better argument than the feminist trolls on here denying that this is a good comparison.
[–]TechniKal45 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Unintentional comment must have been open in my pocket or something. Anyways i agree if women want abortions men should be able to do the same financially.
[–]Bessieboo2000 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You realise no choice to have an abortion will result in LOTS more men paying child support.
Pro-choice is better for everyone
[–]vaaralinen[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You (as well as previous and possible future feminist trolls) realise the post doesn't even mention what is better, point being that honest prochoice should be prochoice for everyone, not that prochoice is bad?
[–]houstongradengineer -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Honest pro choice IS pro choice for everyone. I would support financial protections for men who got coerced reproductively- same as I would support such rights for women. I would also support men AND women taking charge of their contraception and protections.
However, men's full medical records (or even financial records) don't get subpoenaed criminally when someone accuses them of not paying child support. Men's lives don't get put at risk physically at any point after he is out of range of women. There's a literal physical reason why women can't be expected to have all the necessary information regarding their choice before pregnancy. Meanwhile, child support is for a set amount based upon the assumption of a healthy child. Unmarried men don't even have a legal burden of childcare. There is no biological reason why a man can't- at the very least- sign away any rights and responsibilities to a child prior to conception. There IS a reason for women. I might even be persuaded that men having the opportunity to sign away rights would be a good thing. Sperm donors exist, do they not?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women have denied men a choice in any part of it. So now women have the same rights as men.
[+]Adony_ -7 points-6 points-5 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
"a woman getting an abortion is the same thing as a father abandoning their family" is about the level of smart take I'd expect from a subreddit like this lol. Living in a cartoon world like you guys like to sure must make this an easy subject to have an opinion on.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Maybe she should do what women always tell men when men complain about child support:
Keep her legs closed.
[–]vaaralinen[S] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Correct, an abortion is much more severe even if you don't call it murder. And if a woman gets pregnant that's a family, that's a good take you've got, noted.
[–]Adony_ -4 points-3 points-2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not paying child support indicates a living, abandoned kid. An abortion is axing a clump of cells you mong.
[+]wayward_citizen -8 points-7 points-6 points 2 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link
Child support has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.
The analog would be forcing a father to give his kidney to his offspring that needed it. Obviously, you have the right to say no to that. No one can use your organs against your will, even when you're dead. A woman is forced to allowed the continued use of her womb.
[–]vaaralinen[S] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
file a lawsuit against your biology teacher
[–]wayward_citizen -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Over which claim specifically? That a man can't be forced to give up his organs to his child or that a fetus grows in a womb?
[–]Pingayaso[🍰] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Great way to gatekeep men's issues
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
A lot of women putting out their opinion on mens rights while they sit back and scream "No uterus, no opinion." They'll do everything in their power to minimize or negate any issue men have or bring up and if they can't do that then they'll silence men full stop.
Bitch should realize we don't care about her opinion. No penis? No opinion. Equality! /s
[–]houstongradengineer 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Child support is an obligation for women, too. My sister pays it. We have wallets. We get opinions. It's all fair.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
As feminists love to say: It is a primarily male issue, women rarely experience this problem.
As an aside, women are actually worse at paying child support than men.
[–]houstongradengineer 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
But abortion literally is only applicable to people born with uteruses. That's why you don't hear similar phrases used for other problems. Men need to be heard about things like sexual assault, too. Many MRA's would probably call me a feminist as an insult, but I'd support all victims speaking out. Especially men. I wouldn't say "no tits, no opinion."
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, but why can't she keep her legs closed? That's the same thing men are told all the time. Currently this makes us all quite equal. Arguing against men having an option to legally and financially walk away is literally arguing against prochoice.
We can have equality... or we can have "equality." Women made their choice and now men have dealt with it the only way they were left with.
[–]houstongradengineer 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
why can't she keep her legs closed?
Did you know that women with wanted children have abortions? Tragedies happen medically. Abortion is a biological, physical thing impacting the existential life of the mother. People without a working uterus will never experience anything "quite equal" to that.
Again, I don't argue against men having an option to walk away, necessarily. Just that they have no physical, biological reason to exercise that AFTER the fact of everyone's life but him becoming at risk. I imagine many women have abortions- which I support- based on the fact they know the man isn't choosing to stay involved.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Majority of abortions are not medically required, they are optionally requested.
[–]houstongradengineer 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Procedures should generally be at the consent of the patient. Necessary can be subjective.
Most importantly, I absolutely do not trust the government to butt out of those very clearly medically necessary cases. Give them an inch, they take a mile.
[–]wayward_citizen -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
No one's gatekeepers. OP made a disingenuous comparison.
If you want to argue against mandates child support, sure, go for it. But it's not an issue of bodily autonomy like abortion.
[–]Pingayaso[🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Body autonomy is deciding wich contraceptive to use to avoid getting pregnant, once a woman gets pregnant it's not only her body anymore.
Yes, it literally is.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
So blacks working in cotton fields so the cotton can be sold for another persons profit was totally ok then, according to your logic?
They don't need bodily autonomy either. Freedom? Meh.
Forcing a man to pay a woman because she chose to keep a baby that he didn't want isn't any different. You are forcing his body to do work to pay for your choice.
[–]wayward_citizen -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
This is the most tortured logic I've ever seen.
You're not being enslaved against your will, no one is chaining you up or restricting your body in any way. No one is taking your organs or dictating how you use them. It's a complete bullshit argument.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
But you are being enslaved against your will. You're being made to work to pay money to a child you never chose to have. Lovely sexist female perspective you have there though. White Karen much?
[–]wayward_citizen -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
No, you're not, and it's pretty insulting to actual slaves that you're pretending your situation is at all similar.
[–]DeathlessWitch 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Bruh, so to ask a different question. What is your opinion on mens reproductive rights? Do you know men can't be raped in UK? It will show your actual stance in this discussion. Easy to say "oh it's different"
[–]wayward_citizen -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Men and boys should be taken seriously socially and legally when they're sexually abused. Men can obviously be raped and sexually assaulted.
Rape is an example of someone having their bodily autonomy violated. Paying child support is not, it is a separate issue. And no, that's not a statement one way or the other about whether men should have to pay child support.
[–]DeathlessWitch 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Man is raped by a woman. Woman gets pregnant. Woman chosen not to have an abortion. Men has to pay child support. You seeing the problem?
[–]wayward_citizen -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The rape is a violation of bodily autonomy (and already illegal). It's heinous because it's use of another's body against their will.
But again, it literally doesn't matter if child support is just or unjust, it's not a matter of bodily autonomy. Should a man pay child support in that situation? No, obviously not, but not because child support is a violation of the body, but simply because it's unjust.
So I can take 40% of your daily wages and you won't complain about being my slave? Sweet.
I've seen these psychos justify underaged boys paying child support to their older adult female rapist because "child support is for the kid."
I doubt, as usual, that they even care that men are raped and forced into parenthood and made into slave labor to subsidize someone elses life choices.
[–]Gizmomegatrix20 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
actually it can affect your body no money means no food no food means starvation starvation means death
[–]wayward_citizen 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This is kind of a dishonest attempt to redefine bodily autonomy. It's not really a coherent argument, as it doesn't directly concern your body.
[–]Gizmomegatrix20 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I just told you how it does dumbass
[–]wayward_citizen -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No, you didn't. You can't just say "I have a body therefore everything involving me is a concern of bodily autonomy".
If you get mandated to support your child financially, you are still free in every bodily sense. You can travel, you can eat what you wish, work wherever you wish etc. Your right to govern your own physical body is not being restricted in any meaningful sense.
You're being patently dishonest in your interpretation because you know it's not the same thing as literally forcing someone to grow an organic entity inside themselves.
[–]Gizmomegatrix20 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
you have a profile picture on reddit therefore you're lying stfu
[–]Panzerv2003 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
if the father doesn't want to do anything with his child then (same if it's the mother) child support should be paid but if it's the parent keeping the child who wants nothing to do with the other parent child support should be voluntary. Of course this should only apply to people who are actual parents (confirmed by a dna test). It's just the basic concept that doesn't take some cases into account but come on is it really that hard?
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