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[–]CelticHound27 79 points80 points81 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
How many times does this lie have to be disproven
[–]Sahahahil 60 points61 points62 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Facts and feminism don't go together
[–]CelticHound27 19 points20 points21 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
True
[+]CountCuriousness -21 points-20 points-19 points 3 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
Well, it’s not a lie. There is a wage gap. And there are reasons why women choose professions that don’t pay quite as well, or even a risk that they might be paid slightly worse than men, because their professions may not be valued as much.
The hard core lack of women in the workforce is still affecting the average today. Luckily women and girls are killing it in education, and were rapidly removing unnecessary gender-barriers in our culture, so they’ll probably catch up quick.
[–]SsoulBlade 19 points20 points21 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
It's a choice gap. Not a wage gap. The "wage gap" is merely a symptom.
[+]dobeye -10 points-9 points-8 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Then this choice gap sounds like a problem. People only choose what they've been socialized to want
[–]SsoulBlade 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
" Then this choice gap sounds like a problem.
The choices of women (and men) are just that. The choices they made.
"People only choose what they've been socialized to want "
Through the entire history of the human race we can see the choices on average of the sexes. It ain't the same. The things men do for fun on average is not what women do for fun. From the sports to our hobby activities to our shopping to how we react to certain things can it be seen.
Also, if socializing is a thing then you solved the problem to almost all problems. like rape, assaults theft, etc. Just socialize them! If this really work we'd be doing it on a big scale.
Why are men in general better at spatial orientation? Go back to the caveman days. They had to hunt. How? Throw the spear or rock. They had to intuitively calculate the right speed, angle and time to throw the spear to land a hit all in their head. Women did not have to do this for millennia. (does not mean they cannot do it) So if you agree with evolution, who do you think evolution is going to bless with the right "stuff" to throw that spear? (And i am not even talking of muscles involved) Men also has much better eyesight in terms of contrast. Contrast is need to spot the movement of danger (eg tiger) or the hunted animal. So it is desirable to track a target.
Women tend to have much better eyesight in general and much better ability to see colour. Why? Women tend to harvest berries and had to be on the lookout for venoumous animals such as snakes, frogs and had to be able to know the poisonous berry from the right one.
Long story short, men and women are not the same, never has been, probably will never be. Somewhat similar but different.
[–]dobeye -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Oh I see. It seems like you're saying that men are just biologically better at higher earning jobs because evolution? I'm gonna stop before I reply to that argument because first I'd like to make sure I understand your point correctly
Also, in reply to your point on socialization as a solution to crime, I fully agree that we should change the culture around consent, I think that would lower assault rate significantly. Though I don't think theft is really a choice, it's a product of people without the means to survive unless they steal. For the people who do steal as a choice, I definitely think that's a product of bad education, so yes, different culture could solve that.
[–]SsoulBlade 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Oh I see. It seems like you're saying that men are just biologically better at higher earning jobs because evolution?
:) that's not what I said. What you mention is a strawman. I said women and men tend to make different choices and evolution plays a very big role in it.
You then misinterpret that.
I'm gonna stop before I reply to that argument because first I'd like to make sure I understand your point correctly
Glad you did. You presented a strawman.
I think that would lower assault rate significantly. Though I don't think theft is really a choice.
You still choose to do what you do. There is no thing or person making you do it. Correct?
it's a product of people without the means to survive unless they steal. For the people who do steal as a choice, I definitely think that's a product of bad education, so yes, different culture could solve that.
Yes, but you cannot socialise intrinsic interest in something.
I am from South Africa. I am a coloured person. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds
Long story short, I was born during twilight of the apartheid era. In school you were socialised to the idea that people of colour can only became a teacher, nurse, policeman amongst other things. When we were liberated in 1994 not one person wanted to become those things except a few that wanted to. I became a programmer by the way. So, socialisation to me is plain bullshit as we experienced it firsthand and it never affected our choices when we had a clear road.
Women today have a clear road to whatever job they want to take up. Just apply... Of course have the right requirement.
People make choices. They have brains. So women that choose certain jobs are not choosing it because there is a little patriarchial Shit Lord sitting on their shoulders. They make the decisions to do so themself.
Blaming society is just a cop-out. Socialisation I see as a form of peer pressure. You still have to decide to go with or against it.
I was watching a feminist complain of the sexual socialisation of girls while wearing a shirt with cleavage. Can she not see the irony? In a shop you have a choice to buy sexy clothes or not.
Even then, you have a choice to go to a clothing shop with a conservative or a sexy clothing. You have to decide to take transport to said shop. You have to decide to get out of the house etc.
All choices you have make. It's not some sort of magical socialisation.
If socialisation was some magic trick we can employ then we can make thousands of engineers, mathematicians, etc on tap. Correct?
If we can lead women like donkeys with a noose then surely we can make more engineers, right?
Think a out it. Even with all that money that a ceo gets, in average less women apply for the job. Go read up on the bad work hours they have.many women in articles do not like these hours.
Did you know that women want to tick 80% of requirements of a job before applying? Did you know men on average are less concerned and just wing the interview? Did you know men are more likely to negotiate the salary while women are less likely? They can choose to negotiate but hey, let's rather blame society.
The sexes are so different in some areas it ain't funny.
[–]wikipedia_text_bot 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Coloureds
Coloureds (Afrikaans: Kleurlinge or Bruinmense) are a multiracial ethnic group native to Southern Africa who have ancestry from more than one of the various populations inhabiting the region, including Khoisan, Bantu, Afrikaner, Whites, Austronesian, East Asian or South Asian. Because of the combination of ethnicities, different families and individuals within a family may have a variety of different physical features.In the Western Cape, a distinctive Cape Coloured and affiliated Cape Malay culture developed. In other parts of Southern Africa, people classified as Coloured were usually the descendants of individuals from two distinct ethnicities. Genetic studies suggest the group has the highest levels of mixed ancestry in the world.
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[–]dobeye 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm going to try to keep this brief, but if you want me to elaborate I'm happy to message you privately (I just think chat is a better way to hold conversation, it's hard for me to reply to the multiple points you aren making, and it's hard for me to know when you reply to my comments).
Personal choices aren't socialized, because you're right, we have freedom of choice. But any statistician will tell you a difference of one dollar to 74 cents can't be chalked up to free choice, that kind of difference is a product of either culture or genetics. I know this is kind of reducto ad absurdum, but I hope you understand the analogy. In the story "a brave new world" people are told from the day they are born that they want to be miners. They're told it's the greatest honor I'm the world being a miner. When they become of age they have choice, they can go to any job they want, but weirdly enough they all become miners. As you can hopefully see, free choice doesn't conflict with socialization. Each one of them made a free choice, but you understand how you could say them all being miners is a product of their culture. Giant disparities in career choices are either a product of genetics or culture, so either women are just genetically worse at higher paying jobs, or culture is affecting them.
[–]SsoulBlade 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm going to try to keep this brief, but if you want me to elaborate I'm happy to message you privately (I just think chat is a better way to hold conversation
Rather keep this in public is better as someone more educated can jump and give info or others can learn.
it's hard for me to reply to the multiple points
A PM is no different to a comment post. Also, broken up parts read better. Quote what you are responding to so I don't have to guess which specific part you are addressing, etc. Hints from you are welcome too.
multiple points you aren making
Which points would that be? Also, if we are going to debate, do so in honesty. You did not directly touch on various points I made, yet you make me guilty of the very thing you are doing.
Personal choices aren't socialized, because you're right, we have freedom of choice. But any statistician will tell you a difference of one dollar to 74 cents can't be chalked up to free choice, that kind of difference is a product of either culture or genetics.
Lets take the first one. "one dollar to 74 cents". Where is the proof?
Give me an a study please. An unbiased study that is not backed or performed by a feminist or a left wing entity.
The "proof" presented by a feminist article years ago was flawed. They counted the salaries of all the men in a company, got the average and did the same for women and compared those two averages and saw a difference. Question: Do you see the obvious problem? Any statistician will puke at that sort of logic and misrepresentation of stats...
I know this is kind of reducto ad absurdum, but I hope you understand the analogy. In the story "a brave new world" people are told from the day they are born that they want to be miners. They're told it's the greatest honor I'm the world being a miner. When they become of age they have choice, they can go to any job they want, but weirdly enough they all become miners. As you can hopefully see, free choice doesn't conflict with socialization. Each one of them made a free choice, but you understand how you could say them all being miners is a product of their culture.
I hope you actually read my short life history because that is exactly similar what happened to me in the Apartheid era, except the outcome is different. Also, being told that being a miner is the best job ever (lets assume it is the best job ever) why would people not go for it? It is not socialisation. That CHOICE just makes sense. The miner argument is weak as it seems more like advice.
socialization: the process of learning to behave in a way that is acceptable to society. Like I said before. as a non white were were told what job we could do as Coloureds. When the opportunity arose, did we follow the little shitlord on our shoulder? No Why not? Please explain why your miner story logic breaks down here.
And I totally understand where you are coming from as the story is repeated year after year. Women are told they can only do women stuff and men men's stuff. Except you had various women in science in the past. Now, I am not ignoring that the past were sexist but to tell me women/girls can be that easily manipulated by just telling them what they cannot is sexist as hell. Could it be that females tend to gravitate towards different things then men? Using socialisation as the reason implies men and women are identical and socialisation is what fills their heads. correct?
Giant disparities in career choices are either a product of genetics or culture, so either women are just genetically worse at higher paying jobs, or culture is affecting them.
I believe you presented a false dichotomy. It can be both. it can be something else. We just don't know as we don't even know what drives a person to be innately interested in something. The thing is that socialisation does not explain why I am so good at logical things and bad at languages. It does not explain why men are better at hitting a target on average. It does not explain why women are better at social bonding than men, the list goes on.
Why are men so interested in sports? Why do women tend to work together in a social setting than men? Is it because of socialisation?
I don't think it is purely evolution/biology but I think the foundation of why we are the way we are are rooted in it. Not socialisation.
If socialisation was some magic trick we can employ then we can make thousands of engineers, mathematicians, etc on tap. Opinion?
[–]SonOfABitchSomething 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Son of a bitch, it’s not that hard: You make more money for a company, you get a bigger slice of the pie. I personally know many married women who make more than their husbands (even though both have well paid jobs).
So yeah: The gap exists, but not because “patriarchy”; but because of CHOICE.
[–]Jakeybaby125 40 points41 points42 points 3 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
Do you actually believe the wage gap exists?
[–]PineappleWithSmallPP 44 points45 points46 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think the guy who tweeted that only said it as a joke
[+]Jakeybaby125 -34 points-33 points-32 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
He's a karmawhore
Edit: People, instead of downvoting me, look through his profile
[–]dookierue0323 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Where the actual fuck did that come from?!?
[–]Jakeybaby125 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Look through his profile
[–]vb2099 22 points23 points24 points 3 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link
Technically yes but it's NOT as black and white as Feminists frame it in their gender studies.
Men work a more hours on average and aren't affected by child birth (compared to women). Women do more unpaid work ( errands for family and stuff) Many people argue that the wage gap is because women have to do more work at home but a very suitable counter argument is men have to work longer and harder because they're usually the bread winners. Men also go into fields that have more money, which pay alot but aren't as flexible in their time and accommodation of personal life.
Edit : missed not, added it in first sentence
[–]Jakeybaby125 36 points37 points38 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
That's different. That's an earnings gap, not a wage gap. One can be controlled, the other can't
[–]vb2099 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
That's why I said technically yes
[–]Mein_Tarnaccount 17 points18 points19 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Then you’re technically wrong. Edit: Buzz off, FDS. The wage gap is a lie. Work as much as men, and you'll earn as much as men. Fuck off.
[–]vb2099 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm anti FDS bro🙄
[–]Silverpixelmate 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
He’s technically right. And the problem IS that technicality. The stats assume each gender is exactly the same. Each gender is completely different. And that’s why there is a “difference” in pay.
If they wanted to show a legitimate wage gap, they would need to take the exact same job, at the same company and show the exact salaries for men and women. Then look for discrepancies. They don’t do it that way because it doesn’t exist at any significant level. That’s why they went with this other “model” of trying to account for the million different variables for men and women. Which is a shitty and pointless way to do it.
[–]j03_m4m4_l1gm4_b4llz 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There are only two genders so the correct sentence would be "both genders are different from the other"
[–]j03_m4m4_l1gm4_b4llz -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Earnings and wage are basically the same thing
[–]Jakeybaby125 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They're not. One is controllable . The other isn't. Everyone gets the same wage
[–]Zero_the_Unicorn 11 points12 points13 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Wage gap implies same work different payment.
Payment/earnings gap means different work, different payment
[–]SsoulBlade 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Technically yes but it's as black and white as Feminists frame it in their gender studies.
Not black and white at all. A feminists study averaged that wages/salary of an entire male force in company with that of females.
Without accounting for experience , rank, title, education, hours worked for contractors, etc.
This is how feminists studies mask these things they do not want to discuss.
Men work a more hours on average and aren't affected by child birth (compared to women).
Childbirth is a personal choice since the advent of contraception. Women that want kids cannot use that argument.
Women do more unpaid work ( errands for family and stuff)
Irrelavant. We are discussing the wage gap. Same work, different pay.
If you do want to spin that angle, men do more dangerous work around the house that is not accounted for in most feminists studies. See again how dishonest they are?
Men also go into fields that have more money, which pay alot but aren't as flexible in their time and accommodation of personal life.
Exactly. Check stats on the gender taking more leave or wanting to work a more flexible time and it is women. This is one of the many reasons why there are not so many female ceo's. The ceo lifestyle is not a walk in the park.
[–]vb2099 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Dude I disagree with Feminists. I missed the not in first sentence
[–]SsoulBlade 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You are right and I apologise..
[–]vb2099 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Naah it was my fault anyways 😅
[–]Eric_jsm2 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think the guy used it as a joke against feminists
[–]Eric_jsm2 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
oh i get it... ""pay gap"", took me a while
[–]Sun_74 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Is it .79 cents? Or is it .75 cents? Or .8 cents? If you're going to make up a lie about wages at least be consistent
[–]dookierue0323 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Looks like someone needs to re-learn what a joke is. lol
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