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Study of n=738 psychiatric hospital outpatients, finds those high in Cluster-B personality traits(i.e Borderline, Narcissism, Antisocial personality disorders) report 3.5x more sexual partners and 39% more offspring then those low in such traits. (Gutiérrez et al. 2013)

August 1, 2019
174 upvotes

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Title Study of n=738 psychiatric hospital outpatients, finds those high in Cluster-B personality traits(i.e Borderline, Narcissism, Antisocial personality disorders) report 3.5x more sexual partners and 39% more offspring then those low in such traits. (Gutiérrez et al. 2013)
Author Altmark22
Upvotes 174
Comments 34
Date August 1, 2019 11:53 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/BlackPillScience
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/BlackPillScience/study-of-n738-psychiatric-hospital-outpatients.248770
https://theredarchive.com/post/248770
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/BlackPillScience/comments/ckwdnr/study_of_n738_psychiatric_hospital_outpatients/
Top posts by Altmark22
Comments

[–]2Manadeal2btw29 points30 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

The Dark Triad strikes again.

How can people deny this?

[–]resolutions31628 points29 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Is this that selfish, incentive seeking people are actually more attractive, or simply that they accept more partners?

Like, is this actually “9s and 10s love cluster B,” or is it “Cluster B will sleep with anything?”

Also not much competition considering they’re being compared here with the other clusters, which are antisocial tendencies.

[–]Altmark22[S] 23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Is this that selfish, incentive seeking people are actually more attractive, or simply that they accept more partners?

There is a fair amount of research that indicates women generally find such behavior attractive in men. See: https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill#Personality for a good summary of some of these studies.

Also not much competition considering they’re being compared here with the other clusters, which are antisocial tendencies.

The researchers found type-C (anxious, neurotic) personality traits were potentially adaptive as well, because those who possess these traits generally met more success in their careers then the other types:

High-C subjects had better academic performance and reached higher educational levels than low-C subjects, also showed higher rates of drop out from studies due to psychological problems. High-C subjects started working on average two years later than low-C subjects, due to the longer period spent studying. They were also more reluctant to change jobs, including changes for the better; nonetheless, they attained a higher job level.

However they could find no such advantage for type-A (odd, schizoid) individuals:

Finally, we could not find obvious advantages for the sullen, aloof, and mistrustful high-A subjects. They were as limited as high-C subjects in the mating arena; they fared almost as badly as high-B subjects in the academic, job and financial domains; and they lacked supporting relationships in a greater extent than all the rest. This would rather place them, together with other mental disorders,within a scenario of purifying selection.

The authors hypothesis was that Type-A individuals might have higher quality relationships then the other types, if they do manage to initiate them at all. The authors called for more research to explain why these traits haven't been 'bred out' and continue to persist in the population.

[–]Carkudo12 points13 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

There is a fair amount of research that indicates women generally find such behavior attractive in men.

If that were the case, "fake it til you make it" would work, but we all know that it does not. My personal hypothesis here is that those advantages are not due to behavior, but due to other traits that enable such behavior - i.e. you have to be attractive and/or otherwise privileged enough for society to enable egoistic and narcissistic behavior from you, and if you are - this attractiveness and status will obviously grant you advantages in dating as well.

[–]Altmark22[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My personal hypothesis here is that those advantages are not due to behavior, but due to other traits that enable such behavior - i.e. you have to be attractive and/or otherwise privileged enough for society to enable egoistic and narcissistic behavior from you, and if you are - this attractiveness and status will obviously grant you advantages in dating as well.

Yes, I agree that this behavior is an 'honest signal' of such traits in that regard, and require a certain threshold of attractiveness or money and status to be exceeded for such behavior to be seen as acceptable. However, if such behavior is an honest signal of these traits, it would also be possible that women have been selected to find such traits inherently attractive in a possible romantic partner.

It would be good if some researchers conducted a dating study to see if such traits are correlated with actual mating success regardless of other factors, I doubt that's going to happen though.

Edit: A speed dating was conducted to examine the effects of the dark triad on mating success.

The pertinent conclusions of the study (caveat, the levels of the dark triad traits were self-assessed) :

Our findings largely confirm the positive role that narcissism plays for (short and long term) mate appeal in men: We found that narcissistic men were perceived as more favourable partners for STR as well as LTR, but not for FS. The same trend was evident for actual mate choices.Such effects were not found for the other two DT traits.

So narcissism was the only trait that was attractive in men, and the researchers claim this was mediated by greater extraversion.

In men, the association between narcissism and mate appeal as rated by others was not accounted for by PA (physical attractiveness). Although PA was also correlated with all mate appeal indicators in men (correlations around .50 [Supporting Information] conforming to previous research; e.g. Back et al.,2011c), it was not associated with narcissism. Thus, PA could not account for the relationship between narcissism and mate appeal in men. Instead, extraversion accounted for the relationship between the two variables.

That contradicts this study, linked elsewhere in the thread, but that one lacks ecological validity compared to the speed dating study. So it could be that the other dark triad traits mainly aid long-term mating, or it's just that attractive individuals with these traits display a much larger mating effort, and women either desire or tolerate this behavior from them.

[–]TryhardPantiesON1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I understand this as: succesful/rich people can get away with being selfish and arrogant... on the other hand if a broke/dead beat guy tried to act arrogant that wouldn't fly with others.

You kinda something to justify certain behaviours.

[–]estusflaskplus50 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

cope

[–]2Manadeal2btw6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The personality itself is attractive. Egoism and narcissism is attractive to many people.

[–]Altmark22[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Abstract:

Extreme personality traits in humans often have detrimental life consequences, so they have long been supposed to be diseases. However, many other species display personality variants that are maintained due to their fitness advantages; in this case, they are construed as strategies. To examine the fitness costs and benefits of pathological personality traits in humans, we measured features of the A (socially odd, distrustful), B (incentive-seeking, selfish) and C (fearful, inhibited) clusters with the Personality Diagnostic Questionnaire-4+ (PDQ-4+) in a sample of 738 outpatients. Fitness relevant parameters like mating success, reproductive output, self preservation, and access to status were assessed with the Life Outcome Questionnaire. No fitness advantages were found for high-A subjects. In contrast, high-B subjects tripled low-B subjects with regard to mating success and had 39% more offspring. Further, high-C subjects outperformed low-C subjects in attaining status and avoiding risks. These findings help explain the commonness of some extreme personality traits in humans, and suggest that they should be seen as evolutionary strategies rather than as diseases

[–]Carkudo16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're attractive enough to be batshit insane and not get exiled from society, no shit you're going to be fucking and having lots of kids.

[–]polakfury0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

makes sense because you can push limits in society AND get away with it.

[–]zhcyiD9-jpg12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So Cluster-B personality traits are being naturally selected for?

This bodes well.

[–]brewmastermonk11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Someone needs to do a follow up study on how successful their children are.

[–]itshappening995 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is a good question. If their kids are also more likely to have these traits and are also reproducing more, eventually everyone will have these traits.

[–]brewmastermonk1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True, but I bet they die more often.

[–]According_Surround 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cluster B parents and their narcissistic abuse tend to produce Cluster C children.

[–]brewmastermonk0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Huh, I just went down an interesting rabbit hole. Thanks.

[–]Altmark22[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sample:

The study sample consisted of 738 outpatients (53.0% female) of mean age 34.1 years (SD 10.9; range 16–74), consecutively referred for personality assessment to the Psychology Service of a general teaching hospital from 2005 to 2009.

This study consisted of a sample of both individuals of both sexes. However the authors found these reproductive advantages held by high cluster-B individuals hold true for individuals of both sexes. Among the subjects with the other personality disorders, it was primarily the men with high Cluster A traits (schizoid, avoidant, paranoid) and Cluster C traits(avoidant, obsessive-compulsive, dependent) who had hampered mating success, with weak or null effects on women with those personality traits/disorders:

The mating advantages reported for high-B subjects hold in both males(7.6 vs 2.2, b=.440, p <.001) and females (6.5 vs 2.1, b=.378, p <.001). By contrast, access to mates was constrained in males with either A traits (3.4 vs 5.8, b=−.211, p=.001) or C traits (3.3 vs 6.0,b=−.242, p <.001), but this relationship was only marginally significant in high-A females (3.4 vs 4.7, b=−.110, p=.050) and non-significant in cluster C females (3.7 vs 4.5, b=−.056, p=.316)

Further key findings:

In the mating domain, the effects of PD total score only obscured outstanding differences among clusters. High-B subjects had 3.5 times as many mates as low-B subjects (7.3 vs 2.1), including five times more short-term mates and twice as many long-term mates.

The 'dark triad' has often been proposed to mainly apply to short-term mating (i.e 'hook-ups') while having an agreeable personality has been said to be paramount for long-term relationships. This finding demonstrates that the 'dark triad' traits also aid those who exhibit them in initiating long-term relationships.

PDs even brought some fitness advantages: Whereas reduced fertility in other mental disorders has been mainly attributed to lower marriage rates (Keller &Miller, 2006), our high-PD subjects had 32% more mates. The strength of these relationships should not be underestimated: Explained variance lies within the range of 1.0% to 5.7% usually found in phenotypic selection studies, in both humans and non humans (Møller& Jennions, 2002; Nettle, 2002; Stearns, Byars, Govindaraju, & Ewbank, 2010).

The researchers found that possessing these traits had a powerful positive effect on reproductive fitness. Thus it can be expected that these traits will steadily increase in the population over time unless opposing selection pressures operate to neutralize this substantial reproductive advantage.

[–]justwantsomesupport5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Science is nasty

[–]Greek-God-Brody4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good looking men are more likely to have these traits maybe. You can't be a bad boy as an incel

[–]IdoNtEvEnWaTz3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just be mentally ill bro

[–]ChilledEfilist0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

😂😂😂

[–]LSD_LAD2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hasn’t been working out for me. Damn

[–]magicalbird 1 points [recovered]  (9 children) | Copy Link

All of these traits are very attractive in the short term, especially for a one night stand.

Borderline people give you intense love and approval on the upswing which is a turn on for the short term.

Narcissistic people come off as confident which is a turn on for the short term.

Antisocial people don’t care about right or wrong and do impulsive things which is a turn on for the short term.

[–]Altmark22[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

All of these traits are very attractive in the short term, especially for a one night stand.

The evidence regarding short-term mating appears to suggest that physical attractiveness is the main determinant of attractiveness in short-term mating contexts for both sexes(at least without prior acquaintance between the parties involved).

So the greater mating success shown by the Cluster-B males is probably chiefly related to their greater activity levels, lower level of behavioral inhibition etc., that enables them to put in large amounts of effort into pursuing potential mates without any worries about the potential social consequences of this behavior. (Exacerbated by feminism in the modern era, which seems to partially support the theory that feminism is partially a 'shit-test' enabling the greater filtering of unattractive, high social inhibition males from the dating pool.)

This ties into the controversial application of life history theory to human sexual behavior, as there is strong evidence that criminals generally have more offspring and anti-social behavior is associated with a significantly lower age of sexual debut in males.

Since they also had a significantly larger amount of children (which usually implies longer term relationships than one night stands), it could also be that women generally prefer these traits in men also in regards to long-term relationship contexts, regardless of the men's behavioral instability, lack of morality or poor impulse control, which you would think would make them poorer providers.

[–]magicalbird 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

suggest that physical attractiveness is the main determinant of attractiveness in short-term mating contexts for both sexes(at least without prior acquaintance between the parties involved).

I agree. The study was 5 minutes interaction during speed dating. If you can pass a threshold for attraction and then display dark triad, you can escalate that attraction for short term mating strategies. You would need longer than 5 minutes for that. Maybe an hour.

lower level of behavioral inhibition etc.,

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/impulsive-antisocial-personality-traits-linked-hypersensitive-brain-reward-system

"The researchers speculate that a heightened response to an anticipated reward could make such individuals less fearful about the consequences of their behavior, which, combined with a reduced sensitivity to others' emotions and resistance to learning from mistakes, could lead to the manipulative and aggressive style of behaviors that is common in psychopaths."

It is also brain chemistry. The hypersensitive need for the reward overrides any fear or consequences. What makes women attracted? Fearlessness.

Since they also had a significantly larger amount of children (which usually implied longer term relationships than one night stands),

Doesn't have to be from the same woman. It also relates to environment. In non-developed countries, where women have less security, you try to find the most alpha male, which in many cases is a high level criminal with these traits. Safety is a bigger priority than a potential mate's morality.

[–]Altmark22[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I agree. The study was 5 minutes interaction during speed dating. If you can pass a threshold for attraction and then display dark triad, you can escalate that attraction for short term mating strategies. You would need longer than 5 minutes for that. Maybe an hour.

The Luo & Zhang speed-dating study was centered around 5 minute interactions, but I also linked a blind-dating study with the same general conclusion, and the length of the interaction was far longer, (average of 150 minutes spent on the date).

So the potential threshold for personality to matter would have to be longer then the length of a typical first date. Also important to note, these studies preclude the possibility of intra-sexual competition among males; there is some evidence that this form of competition is still salient in many modern dating contexts, (apart from online dating, of course).

It is also brain chemistry. The hypersensitive need for the reward overrides any fear or consequences. What makes women attracted? Fearlessness.

Right, but that isn't evidence that women are directly attracted to such traits, just that such traits benefit men in obtaining more sexual partners, directly or indirectly.

Doesn't have to be from the same woman. It also relates to environment. In non-developed countries, where women have less security, you try to find the most alpha male, which in many cases is a high level criminal with these traits. Safety is a bigger priority than a potential mate's morality.

Right, but there is also evidence that women are drawn to greater levels of facial masculinity in more developed societies. Would this also apply to behavioral masculinity, I wonder?

[–]magicalbird 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

but I also linked a blind-dating study with the same general conclusion, and the length of the interaction was far longer, (average of 150 minutes spent on the date).

Not the best abstract. It implied that no matter the attractiveness of the male, the male subject's only care was how attractive the female was. Was the study also implying females judging the same way? Also 1966 is a very old study. I would if the measures would be similar today.

intra-sexual competition among males

The taller, buffer men of a social circle group will have first access to potential mating choices with females due to dominance physically and socially. That is contextual in a bar type of setting.

but that isn't evidence that women are directly attracted to such traits

Based off your first reply, I get it. So the argument is that these traits, through the brain chemistry article I gave, allow these men to have greater activity levels and less inhibition. You can then argue that they have more sexual partners due to the sheer effort they put in. They meet more women with little to no remorse, regardless of any literal or theoretical shit-test.

women are drawn to greater levels of facial masculinity in more developed societies.

interesting study. My argument then relates to social dominance where women don't judge based of looks but more the contextual alpha male. Being the top guy in a gang is a good example of social dominance. It doesn't matter if his face is as masculine as others in a less stable society.

[–]Altmark22[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Was the study also implying females judging the same way?

Yeah the abstract was worded using male pronouns, due to the age of the study.

They found:

The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date's physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects.

Others variables recorded like self-esteem, popularity, nervousness and academic success weren't found to be significantly correlated with the female date's liking of the men.

Also 1966 is a very old study. I would if the measures would be similar today.

Would indeed be interesting to see a more recent follow up study using a similar methodology, as opposed to the usual speed-dating format used for these studies.

The taller, buffer men of a social circle group will have first access to potential mating choices with females due to dominance physically and socially. That is contextual in a bar type of setting.

Likely, but such studies also suffer from a potential selection bias where particularly sexually unsuccessful males may be less inclined to participate due to fears of negative judgement or self-consciousness, and they do rely on self-reports of sexual partner count (which more dominant males possibly are more likely to inflate.)

So the argument is that these traits, through the brain chemistry article I gave, allow these men to have greater activity levels and less inhibition. You can then argue that they have more sexual partners due to the sheer effort they put in. They meet more women with little to no remorse, regardless of any literal or theoretical shit-test.

Yep, the dark triad or anti-social traits doesn't necessarily have to be directly be sexually attractive to women for it to result in a greater number of sexual partners. There are trait rating studies where women do admit to being attracted to such personality profiles in men, however.

It could also be that the opposite traits exhibited (higher empathy, higher inhibition) are also unattractive to many women (the whole 'nice guy' argument), possibly because they are seen as effeminate.

My argument then relates to social dominance where women don't judge based of looks but more the contextual alpha male.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence that men with higher levels of contextual status also have more sexual partners. This isn't necessarily completely separate from effects of looks however, looks have also found to be significantly correlated with other assessed male peer status.

Being the top guy in a gang is a good example of social dominance.

This doesn't only apply in poorer societies though, a study conducted in the U.S found that gang members had higher numbers of sexual partners than comparable age males that weren't gang members, with the gang leaders by far reporting the most partners.

Two gang leaders […] reported 11 and 10 partners, respectively, [within the last 90 days] […]

[–]magicalbird 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

The majority of this discussion comes down to the conclusion of the "trait rating studies" you linked.

It stated, "Further work in the sexual marketplace could use-fully pursue interactions (statistical and social) between sellers(Dark Triad men) and buyers (women). Regarding the former, doestheir attractiveness reside in female choice, or in their capacity topersuade and manipulate? For the latter, does the appeal of DarkTriad charm extend to only a subset of women?"

It might be a combination of both.

Likely, but such studies also suffer from a potential selection bias where particularly sexually unsuccessful males may be less inclined to participate

Online dating as you mentioned in the earlier message exists to offset this issue. One of the articles posted on this subreddit already wrote that ~80% of men are vying for the bottom ~20% of women and ~80% of women are vying for the top ~20% of men. A quick glance at a female friend's Tinder page can show you the type of men you're competing against.

This isn't necessarily completely separate from effects of looks

Yeah this relates to the speed dating study and another study where the numbers correlated attraction down to #1 looks and #2 a moderate correlation with physical activity/sports. Social dominance can't be measured in a speed dating setting however. If it could, it would be right after looks in my opinion.

This doesn't only apply in poorer societies though

Of course it applies to all societies. My argument being that in less developed countries, social dominance matters the most reinforcing the facial masculine study.

women are drawn to greater levels of facial masculinity in more developed societies.

[–]Altmark22[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

It might be a combination of both.

Possibly, it certainly shows that such behavior is not maladaptive (at least in modern society). I don't know if dark triad traits are universally beneficial in more violent societies where there are harsh punishments for anti-social behavior (including execution), and monogamy is more strictly enforced. Of course, they probably presented an adaptive trait in some ancestral environments, otherwise they would have likely been eliminated from the gene pool.

Online dating as you mentioned in the earlier message exists to offset this issue. One of the articles posted on this subreddit already wrote that ~80% of men are vying for the bottom ~20% of women and ~80% of women are vying for the top ~20% of men. A quick glance at a female friend's Tinder page can show you the type of men you're competing against.

It offsets the issue of directly physically competing with other men, but also leads to much greater levels of competition in terms of physical looks and greater competition in general (as you stated). Besides the separate issue of the lopsided gender ratio's on such apps.

I mainly referred to online dating to state that online dating (or studies making conclusions from online dating) bypasses the potential effects of dominance hierarchies on female attraction, but of course you are actually indirectly competing with many more men on such services, than you would potentially in a bar/nightclub setting.

Yeah this relates to the speed dating study and another study where the numbers correlated attraction down to #1 looks and #2 a moderate correlation with physical activity/sports. Social dominance can't be measured in a speed dating setting however. If it could, it would be right after looks in my opinion.

The correlation with physical activity/sports is likely related to the beneficial effect of engaging in physical activity on one's looks.

Of course it applies to all societies. My argument being that in less developed countries, social dominance matters the most reinforcing the facial masculine study.

The facial masculinity study found that women in more developed societies preferred more masculine faces, possibly related to the gender-equality paradox (give women more freedom; they are more prone to default to biological essentialist motivations).

I would say it's likely that income inequality would likely lead to greater female preference for social dominance: in line with the findings of this study. Not necessarily harsher environments.

Our findings have important implications: Sexualization manifests in response to economic conditions but does not covary with female subordination. These results raise the possibility that sexualization may be a marker of social climbing among women that track the degree of status competition in the local environment.

[–]magicalbird 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course, they probably presented an adaptive trait in some ancestral environments, otherwise they would have likely been eliminated from the gene pool.

It might be related to the malaria gene where having one of the two indicators is slightly beneficial and having two indicators is bad. For example, schizophrenia affects 1% of the population consistently even though it's an awful disorder. However, having parts of it could mean more creativity?

I mainly referred to online dating to state that online dating (or studies making conclusions from online dating) bypasses the potential effects of dominance hierarchies on female attraction, but of course you are actually indirectly competing with many more men on such services,

Yes. While you minimize social dominance hierarchies, you enhance the need for other value traits. The most successful men on online dating in the west are Caucasian (no matter what people say, whiteness is a value trait especially on online dating), six figures, six feet tall, facial hair, tattoos, and being buff.

gender-equality paradox (give women more freedom; they are more prone to default to biological essentialist motivations).

it's likely that income inequality

True while correlative, income inequality can occur in developed countries too.

In the same study, https://www.pnas.org/content/115/35/8722 ,

I found this really interesting. Thanks to Tinder, we are in an era of high variance for men. This is what happens. Really fascinating stuff.

Why do income inequality and sexualization co-occur? In addition to income inequality breeding status competition (18, 19), we suggest that it strengthens incentives operating in the sexual marketplace. Physical attractiveness enhances a woman’s value as a mate (21) and is thus an area of female–female competition (22). For men, however, higher income enhances quality as a prospective mate (21), and income inequality corresponds with variation in the quality of male mates available. In nonhuman animal species, intrasexually competitive behavior among females increases when male mate quality is highly variable (36). Conditions in which some men possess a disproportionate share of the wealth may thus incentivize women to sexualize and enhance their physical appearance to out-do their fellow competitors and attract the highest-quality men available at the top of the income distribution.

[–]Altmark22[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It might be related to the malaria gene where having one of the two indicators is slightly beneficial and having two indicators is bad. For example, schizophrenia affects 1% of the population consistently even though it's an awful disorder. However, having parts of it could mean more creativity?

Yes, likely. Similar arguments have been made regarding Autism representing a "failed male sexual strategy" for males.

I found this really interesting. Thanks to Tinder, we are in an era of high variance for men. This is what happens. Really fascinating stuff.

It's not only dating apps/tinder, but social media (inflating female value) and increasing wealth concentration leading to increasing discrepance in male value (LMS), and this leads to escalating female hypergamy. A (possibly being partially caused by the previous stated factors) decline in socially encouraged/enforced monogamy also results in the default state of unequal male reproductive success (Bateman's principle) becoming more pronounced.

[–]captvic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm antisocial. Where's my GF at?

Looks > everything else

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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