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Are discussions about FDS allowed/recommended in this community?

tiposk

December 27, 2020

19 upvotes

/r/ExRedPill

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Title	Are discussions about FDS allowed/recommended in this community?
Author	tiposk
Upvotes	19
Comments	17
Date	December 27, 2020 3:47 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/kl5qjc/are_discussions_about_fds_allowedrecommended_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/are-discussions-about-fds-allowedrecommended-in.409706 https://theredarchive.com/post/409706

Comments

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thetruthishere_ 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tiposk[S] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]starspider 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]tiposk[S] 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]starspider 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dogoftheyear69 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]tiposk[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]_fuyumi 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I personally don't agree. FDS teaches how to avoid certain types of men, and being happily single until you find a "high value" male. It is very against the patriarchy and settling. It also teaches a lot about breaking off relationships early if you're not compatible or treated well.

Like any community, there are toxic people, and things I don't agree with, but they are not at all equivalent.

The red pill is basically a game that is used to trick women into having sex. It's half a step up from MGOTW and incels which view women as subhuman. The tricks in red pill are designed to find women with low enough self esteem that they are willing to be treated poorly, or lower their self esteem enough to keep them. A mate's quality is defined by her looks, which is not the case with FDS.

FDS is not a "pill," it's a system designed to improve self esteem and self worth, and carefully vet men as long term partners.

That said, if anyone is trying to "escape" FDS, which I don't believe you are, I'd be more than interested to see their perspective and see whether this community can help.

[–]tiposk[S] 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Thing is, fds users spend an inordinate amount of time writing negative posts about men based on anecdotes and stereotypes. While most of these posts apply to rp, they promote an unnecessary divide between women and well-intentioned guys.

FDS also sees dating through patriarchal lenses. It judges relationships by marital status, which indirectly promotes the idea that "forever girlfriends" are less complete than their married counterparts regardless of the man's emotional investment.

FDS puts way too much emphasis on a man's ability to provide, which is not only patriarchal, but incredibly unfair considering that the sub also tells women to make their own money and be independent.

Furthermore, withholding sex to gain respect from men, which fds recommends, portrays sex as degrading to women, displaces sexual responsibility away from men and normalizes hypocrisy and sexual double standards.

The difference between RP/RPW and FDS is strategy because their core beliefs are very similar.

[–]_fuyumi 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I happen to disagree. The core beliefs are not similar at all. I think some people think so because the most vocal minorities of each group tend to be more extreme, thus they sound similar.

FDS emphasizes getting with a man who can take care of himself financially (not necessarily "rich"), but also can cook and clean for himself, and is mentally sound. Basically, not someone who needs "completing" or mothering. That's why the woman also needs to make her own money and be independent, so that two whole, responsible adults are coming together for a relationship.

Women should withhold sex until they feel comfortable in a relationship. How is this hypocritical or a double standard? Don't have sex until or unless you feel like. Only someone low value will pressure you into sex. The philosophy is to guard your sexuality.

Sex is riskier for women: only women can get pregnant, which can have serious physical and financial complications. STI transmission is more likely from M to F than the other way. Sexual assault and rape are more common M->F than the other way. Ditto domestic violence and slut shaming. Men are far more likely to orgasm from sex than women. It's the way the world works. So advice not to have sex unless you're sure about someone (however you may define that) is important for everyone, but moreso for women, in my opinion.

I like FDS a lot and take some things with a grain of salt bc I'm an adult. I'm also married, but I still follow in case I come across any good advice for my friends. I feel like women take a lot of crap before ending bad relationships, and tend to settle. There are plenty of decent men out there, so it's hard to see people you love being mistreated by toxic idiots when they could be with a good person. It really all starts inside, with realizing your value, knowing your personal deal breakers, and figuring out what you want in a partner.

ETA: "forever girlfriends" are bad, bc they want to be married, but are settling for someone who doesn't want to be married. Either that, or they're being led on year after year with the promise of a marriage/proposal/commitment that is unlikely to come. It's fine if both partners don't want to legally marry. No one cares. It's about both partners being fulfilled, and not one partner's needs being sublimated for the comfort of the other.

"Forever girlfriends" should dump their boyfriends and find a man that wants to marry. Or the boyfriends should definitively declare they will never marry, and find a woman who wants the same.

[–]tiposk[S] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

FDS is against egalitarian money spending:

We have 3 basic resources: money, time, and energy. A man who's courting you or in a relationship with you should be investing a significant amount of ALL 3 of these resources in you.

He pays for dates without expecting anything in return but your company. He orders you an uber/lyft home after a date. He spends an appropriate amount of money on gifts (doesn't cheap out but doesn't spend irresponsibly for his income).

If he's not consistently investing all of these 3 resources, it's a sign that he's not fully committed to you. If you feel like he is stingy with his money, time, or energy with you, listen to your intuition. He is not the man for you.

You weed out predators, riffraff and low value men just by avoiding the things they like-- like dating apps, going Dutch, sleeping on the 1st/2nd date, not planning dates, coffee dates, drink dates, last minute dates, low effort dates, etc.

FDS doesn't distinguish between women who want and women who don't want marriage, it assumes that all women should want it:

The moment you move in with a boyfriend is the moment you lose leverage in the relationship. You’re giving up your independence in exchange for NO commitment from him. And, you’re setting yourself up to waste your time as a “forever girlfriend.” Here’s why you need to wait until there’s a ring on your finger before you even THINK about living with a man.

FDS envisions the most extreme forms of casual sex to warn women about its consequences:

Sis in the OP I linked didn’t use a condom AT ALL, but rather than conveying the severity of that poor decision, everyone is giving her high fives in the comments and calling her a “strong independent woman”.

Note that ALL these quotes come from articles and posts linked from the FDS Handbook. These are OFFICIAL FDS positions and not just opinions from a vocal minority.

Women should withhold sex until they feel comfortable in a relationship. How is this hypocritical or a double standard?

Withholding sex until feeling comfortable in a relationship isn't the double standard, it's the idea that women should have more responsibility for sex than men, which is promoted by FDS. I'm quoting an article linked by the handbook:

Women are more physically susceptible to STDs, some of which can severely effect our fertility and are undetectable in men (such as HPV).

Fair enough...

We also carry the heavier reproductive risks: unwanted pregnancy, abortion, and negative effects of birth control.

Both can be prevented through an appropriate condom use.

Women do not orgasm at the rate and frequency of men.

And? Kissing doesn't make me orgasm, but I like doing it. Getting my nipples touched doesn't make me orgasm either, but I like having someone touch me. Similarly, being penetrated makes me feel good. It's up to the woman to decide whether lack of an orgasm is cost or not.

You will reinforce poor behavior by having sex with men you haven't vetted or made invest.

No, what reinforces poor behavior in men is raising them to believe that women are the gatekeepers of sex. If good male behavior is promoted as something that should be dependent on how much a woman makes him invest, he can safely misbehave with you and blame you for being easy. Where I grew up, the myth of the female gatekeeper in deeply ingrained in our culture. Men aren't better behaved, they're more likely to cheat, to suffer from the madonna/whore complex and to treat women they date and marry like crap because they don't feel responsible.

In case my words get misinterpreted, I'm not advocating for women to become irresponsible with sex, I'm just advocating that women hold men to the same standards as they hold themselves. If a man needs to be gatekeeped, the proper advice isn't "make him invested", the proper advice is to dump him. If women take on more responsibility for sex than they expect from men, they shouldn't be surprised if they constantly see themselves surrounded by fuckbois. And by the way, the gatekeeper myth is exactly what keeps slut-shaming alive.

[–]_fuyumi 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with most of the points. If you ask someone out on a date, you should show effort, plan something nice, and don't be afraid to spend money. I do agree that a lot of the date advice comes as a reaction to red pill or mras saying not to spend money on women bc they're gold digging whores etc so maybe it's a way to weed out those types. Like I said, I don't agree with all the philosophy, and I'm now married, but I sometimes went on cheap dates. If the company is good, the money doesn't matter, but people tend to put less effort into relationships over time, so if they start out low effort it could be a red flag.

Responsible sexual behavior is not gatekeeping. Instead of trying to spin that narrative, you should encourage men to be more choosy about who they have sex with as well. There are plenty of reasons: men can still get STIs and they tend to be asymptomatic longer, rape accusations, can also be abused or sexually assaulted, can get someone pregnant and be on the hook for child support. There's nothing wrong with waiting until you know a person to have sex. If that's gatekeeping, then too bad. You don't deserve to have sex if that's how you feel. Also, your post history is a damn mess. This is my last response to you.

[–]tiposk[S] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FutureSignificant412 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dogoftheyear69 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link