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Do you feel "privileged" because of your sex? why or why not?

January 17, 2022

Hi everybody! I'm back after a bit of a break from reddit. and I wanted to make this post. I came across a discussion on menslib talking about privilege and I want to be equipped in my responses there. But I don't feel like they'll allow such a post there.

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[–]LettuceBeGrateful 44 points45 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Depends heavily on the situation. Generally, no, but then again, I think everyone is much more likely to feel their own struggles than fortunes, and likewise most able to notice the privileges of others that they themselves don't have.

I'm tired of privilege being used as a blanket term. If someone wants to mention "male privileges," plural, and then list the ones they want to discuss, we can totally have that conversation. But that isn't how the conversation usually goes. Usually, it's just "you're a man and you have some nebulous, overarching privilege, which means male advocacy is a bigoted waste of time, and don't you know you objectively have it better than women."

It's just invalidation and marginalization with a few extra steps.

[–]bottleblank 41 points42 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Nope. The fact that I am male and therefore held to some specific standard of masculinity by society (men and women) that I have never and will never achieve makes me consider it a detriment, not a privilege.

I'm not a muscleman, I'm not a fighter, I'm not a heart-throb, I'm not a CEO. I'm not rich, I'm not charismatic, I'm not confident, I'm not tall, I'm not especially attractive or interesting.

So what, then, am I?

A pretty unsuccessful "man", it would seem. So no, I don't feel privileged, because it involves being told how wonderful I must have it compared to women based on other mens' behaviour.

[–]BloomingBrains 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

For what its worth, I think you're pretty interesting. Anyone that writes the kind of insightful and articulate comments that you make must have some kind of charisma. Intellect is also a positive trait in and of itself.

I think there are wildly different kinds of intrigue, attraction, and charm. These concepts are totally subjective.

The problem is that really narrow and specific types of intrigue, attraction, and charm are what are commonly considered attractive. (And by that I mean traditional/gender essentialists ones like aggression). But they aren't any more correct than the rare woman that likes nerdy and "sensitive" men is.

That's one way to look at things, and personally it helped me to avoid hating myself and putting myself down so much.

[–]bottleblank 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure my alleged talents for writing comments online quite carry across to the real world, but thanks for the kind words.

I think you're right, though, that there are very specific slices of those traits which are considered appropriate, acceptable, or attractive. As you also say, there are people who like other variations of those traits too, more broadly than those specific slices. But those people seem more difficult to find "in the real world" and, I think, tend to require much more targeted searching to find them.

I don't think, for example, that you'd very easily find somebody who appreciates certain intellectual or academic pursuits casually swiping on Tinder. But you probably would more easily find somebody who enjoys fashion, or popular television shows, or current chart music. That's not to say there are no intellectual or academic people on such platforms, only that my assumption is that they'd get very lost in the shuffle and their interests are much more difficult to establish in that form.

So it's not that I don't think there are women out there for "nerdy" guys, but if you don't happen to be hanging out in the same places as them, you won't find them, and they won't find you, so it appears that no such potential partners exist. Instead, the majority of women you do see tend not to be particularly inclined towards spending their spare time or their career indulging in technical or intellectual pursuits. It's just difficult to locate the right pool of potential matches when you have more niche interests or are considered less compatible than most with "typical" women.

[–]BloomingBrains 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you're right.

The problem with that though is you run into the whole "don't approach women here, they're just trying to enjoy their hobbies." It has become much less socially acceptable to try to kindle a fire with women that aren't in specifically designated places: bars, dating apps, etc. And as you said that limits the pool to certain kinds of people.

I've joined friend circles or clubs that were formed around mutual hobbies multiple times that got torn apart because I expressed interest in a woman there and she turned me down. People have this weird thing where they think its not appropriate to be around someone that once asked you out casually, even if there are always other people in that group as a buffer anyway. I don't get whats so bad about knowing a guy expressed he might be interested to get to know you better. Its like people think that if you ask someone out you're confessing some kind of deep and serious love, and that once jilted, might turn into a stalker or something. No, people are supposed to date to see if they're compatible and feelings develop, not the other way around.

Before all the apps and barfly hookup culture, I feel like people were more understanding and permissive of trying to meet through social circles, because you had to be. There was no easy out. And there wasn't such a rigid divide between being "super serious and marriage oriented" and being a party boy/girl.

[–]bottleblank 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

While I think you're right about the concerns around approaching women and being considered offensive for daring to admit you might find them attractive (especially in a place not intended specifically for that), I do get the impression that's less of an issue "in the real world".

We're often exposed, through our keen interests in gender discussions, to the most extreme opinions and the most intense objections to male behaviour, but I don't think they necessarily represent those of "most" women, nor do I think they accurately describe "most" men. I say this because quite obviously, if you look at people getting together, they frequently ignore what we're told in these articles and discussions are "the rules", yet they're still successful, and the women seem perfectly happy to accept that.

That's not to say that makes it any easier, especially if you're not considered the most attractive or the most capable of being an appropriate partner, those are still challenges. It may still be difficult, it may still result in a string of rejections, and it may mean more knocks to your dignity, your confidence, and your experience. But I don't think "it's offensive, never approach women except via a dating app" is something that should rank very highly on your list of concerns or worries about dating. Easier said than done, I realise, those messages affect me too, I don't want to be out there making women uncomfortable because I said the wrong thing, or said it at the wrong time, or in the wrong place, but I'm aware that society isn't that clear cut, those aren't hard and fast rules, and those being most vocal about them being important are not the women who are likely to be open to potentially forming a relationship. Others are more open, less concerned about formality and rules, and many won't chew you out for not following feminist rulebooks to the letter.

Your point about dating being a way to figure out if you like somebody enough to make something serious out of it is a fair one too. I'm sure many couples do form out of friendships, but that's clearly not the only way. We've had things like dating agencies/clubs, speed dating, blind dates, being introduced by friends for dates, and various other things like that, for many, many years. I don't think it's always reasonable to expect people, especially those with a smaller social circle, to "get to know" as many women as friends as it takes to find one who might, eventually, be accepting of a potential intimate relationship, especially with the "rule" about not looking for female friends with the intent of turning them into partners. That's quite often a recipe for disappointment, as you see them pair off with other men who were more forward, leaving you wondering why you didn't say anything sooner. Before you know it, they're all married, and you're left feeling like a sucker because you thought you were being respectful or careful by not saying anything before it was "the right time".

[–]lastfreethinkerleft-wing male advocate 28 points29 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I literally had fine touch nerves and half of the skin of my penis removed after birth. It has been a slog to get people who claim to be human rights activists to barely even acknowledge. The idea that cutting off part of a child's genitals is wrong. If they're male. They will easily agree with you if it's female.

I'm sick and tired of having to point out that basic things in which only the sex is changed is wrong. If you were to claim a number of the things that are done to men in this country were done to women, how quickly would it be stopped and how many would actively fight with you. But to claim that you should not cut off part of a kid's penis suddenly. You're the crazy person.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 17 points18 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I came across a discussion on menslib talking about privilege [...] I don't feel like they'll allow such a post there.

That really says it all about that sub. And for your information, it appears you are already on their filter+discard list, as your latest comment there did not get through.

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[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll assume you're referring to social privileges.

After studying the biases against men, I don't see any privilege in being male in countries with weak support of traditional gender roles. Entirely the opposite. While it is true that being a man can be advantageous in narrow contexts, on the whole, it is significantly more advantageous to be female. This can be summarized by the term "gender empathy gap," whose consequences are far-reaching and affect our judgment and treatment of individuals profoundly.

As Rick Bradford (William Collins) states in his book:

Moral authority is the true hegemony, and it belongs to women. It always did.

See my list that contains a lot of studies that provide evidence for our psychological inclination to favor women (which I update from time to time):

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 26 points27 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes, sure. But both sexes have their privileges and challenges. It definitely is a mixed bag.

[–]gabrielcoronel_left-wing male advocate 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I sometimes feel privileged.

I sometimes feel unprivileged.

I usually feel neutral.

[–]Vandechoz[🍰] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No; Every time I feel like I'm experiencing privilege, it's because of my dead grandparents' money; My sex is less than an afterthought in comparison, the only thing I can think of that's a noticeable benefit is the lack of needing to deal with a period

(edit to remove periods to flex my privilege)

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


I've been stuck tapdancing on the poverty line for the last ten years of my life.

I have little to no access to therapy or other mental health support because of it. and there's no way I can find that would allow me to move up in the world that doesn't involve education. Something I have zero access to.

[–]Radiance969 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No. Especially since I'm a ethnic male (African).

[–]Cfox006 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

As a guy who feels more “feminine” I.e caring about fashion and the way I look, wanting to feel safe and protected, not wanting my self worth to come from my job/money, I’d prefer rather have the privileges of a girl than the ones men have

Don’t even get me started on balding lmao

[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Couldn't agree more.

[–]webernicke 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Literally never. I can intellectually accept that I must be privileged in some way as a male, but I don't think there's ever been any time in my life that I've genuinely thought, "I'm glad I'm not a woman." Not once.

Plenty of times I've hated the fact that I'm a man, though.

[–]Lianza 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hi, a woman here! First off, I apologize for having messed your vote account. I know that this survey is addressed towards men in its overwhelming majority, but I thought that I could give my two cents.

Now - onto the issue:

I do feel privileged in my gender because I see that people are not so ready to get offended with what I say nor I have to worry too much about whether I look intimidating or whatever. In fact, I do feel really protected. Those who read my original big post in this reddit know that I am a roleplayer, that I was roleplaying a guy for a dating story for a while, and those were things that really messed his mind.

On the contrary - when I talk about my problems, as long as I do it in a respecting manner, I feel that people are way more eager to listen without being judged. They may not always understand my point, but it is still nice to see people try without the much harsher judgements my boy received from strangers of the opposite gender. It is such a wonderful feeling! I never thought that writing a needy vampire could get me to appreciate it this much!

So, to all the decent men here and there, thanks for making me feel safe when I voice out my concerns :) You keep doing you and I'll do what people should have done to you to a long time. Cya!

[–]thereslcjg2000left-wing male advocate 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In some circumstances yes, in some circumstances no. In my opinion gender relations are too complicated to justify ascribing overarching privilege to one gender.

[–]RhinoNomad 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think this most honest answer would be "sometimes". I do think I get interrupted less than my female counterparts, and that it can be easier to get respect as a man (or at least a lot simpler than it is for women). But at the same time, people care a lot less when I'm hurt/sick/uncomfortable and people respect my boundaries a lot less. I'm also a lot more likely to experience violence than women are and my issues, whether it's about the criminal justice system, sexual violence, domestic violence etc, are largely ignored.

People don't believe me when I talk about the past emotional and physical abuse I've endured. There were no shelters, there were no refuges, there were no social services available when I needed them and the ones that did exist outright rejected me or framed me as being the perpetrator of violence.

Especially being a black man, I do feel life would be easier if I was a black woman because at least there is a community actively working for my issues and specific organization in large companies that seek to promote my welfare because of my gender. I work for a large tech company, and while there aren't a whole lot of black people in general, every black person that works here is a black woman, there is only one other black man that I've found and he works in a complete different org so I never interact with him. Being black, male, and middle class is frustratingly lonely.

[–]Punder_man 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me I just hate the idea that just because of my gender I have automatically received / continue to receive or benefit from "Privilege"
Far too often have I had a feminist try to dismiss anything I have to say with the classic "You need to check your privilege!"

The biggest problem here is all they are seeing is my gender (male) my race (white) and are jumping to the assumed conclusion that I MUST by no reason beyond those two factors.. be 'privileged'

It doesn't matter if I grew up in abject poverty or had to work harder than others to get where I am today.. Nope! apparently hard work and effort don't exist to these people because it's all the result of 'Privilege'

I mean sure.. its IS possible that I benefited from 'privilege' at some point in my life.. but that would be the exception.. not the rule..
I'm so sick and tired of the assumption being that if you are both white and a man that your life has been nothing but easy street with the magical force of 'privilege' providing everything for you..

Yes, Privilege is a thing.. but its not as universal or as common as many a feminist would have people believe.

[–]Mahameghabahanacentrist male advocate 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think I have the privilege of not being paranoid of being in danger? But that may bite in the future judging by increasing number of murder and come in my town victim being mostly men). But for reason I still don't feel paranoid when traveling in night, though my parents (yes 21 year old but still live with them as it's normal in india) do call me every 10 min to come back quickly.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men are more in actual danger, but are less worried about it.

I think the privilege of the 2nd doesn't outweigh the disadvantage of the first, especially since unreasonable fear is something you can learn to control, but you can't control the danger around you.

[–]bad-judgement 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Any privilege a man thinks he has is quickly obliterated in family court when they predominantly lose access to their kids. Even if it’s not their fault.

[–]Mr-X1 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Overall? Being a male means you are generally disadvantaged where I live.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can remember the sense of gratitude of never getting a period when I learned about it.

While the greater strength comes with some social obligation I still consider it a net-poistive, even being biologically disposable, while not a privilege, can nevertheless (if one succeed) be a springboard into fame, glory and wealth.

The top and the bottom is filled with men for this reason.

[–]Horny20yrold 4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I will ignore the bad taste this dumb, bigoted, demented term* leaves in my metaphorical mouth whenever I hear it, I will just talk about some of my "boy isn't me so lucky I was born a man" moments, which I definitely had, and some of my opposite moments too, which I had a lot of too.

I'm pleased I wasn't born a woman due to the pain of childbirth and periods. The first one is probably not a big deal since I turned out to be an anti-natalist anyway, so unless being born a woman somehow changes my brain in unforseen ways, I would have probably turned out to be an anti-natalist woman and never give birth. Periods are an unavoidable problem though.

I'm sometimes also enraged by the amount of control male relatives exert over their female relatives in my society, even when the intentions are 100% pure and admirable (wanting to protect them from nasty scumbags), fathers in particular get super condescending and unhealthily controlling when trying to prevent their daughters having nights outs and such. Very loud too.

I'm always of the opinion that if you truly "want what's best" for a person - man or woman -, you never raise your voice or throw a tantrum on them during your arguments. Raising the voice always seems like a pride-saving move, like you're too offended the other party isn't giving what you feel is due consideration to your words and you want to teach them a lesson. The person doing this doesn't seem too worried about anything but their own pride.

As for moments when I regretted being born a man, they are many. The latest one is from about 6 months ago, I was considering suicide very seriously. It got to the point where I was researching drug names to kill myself as painlessly as possible. I was swimming in tears. Then one of the family friends car broke down and my father called on me to go with him to help, I wiped all tears like nothing happened.

Basically, being born a man means you're not allowed to show weakness. Those words are so overused and clichéd, I know, but they denote a reality no man can escape from. The touch deprivation, the reluctance to talk about your mental problems with your family, the sheer horror of being seen with tears on your face. You're not human, you're a piece of reinforced concrete. Take whatever life throws at you and just sit there, because society absolutely despises, hates, is disgusted by, men who show weakness. You're not getting help either way, asking for it will additionally lose you your respect and dignity. If you crack, crack quietly.

All in all, I don't think you can meaningfully compare suffering. I, as an anti-natalist, am a strong believer in the hedonistic treadmill concept, which is the idea that the brain always feels the same suffering regardless of the absolute magnitude of the tragedies it lives through.

Sure my life is better than a 15th century serf or a holocaust captive, but that just means my brain finds something else to bitch about. You know how some teachers curve the grades so that (say) 70% of the students pass no matter what their grades? the brain is doing something similar, it will get upset about the worst 60-70% of what happens in your life, and it will get super upset, no matter if it's a death or you losing a video game match.

So that's why you can't compare suffering or gauge whether men are more "privileged" in life or women more "oppressed" or all this pathetic nonsense.

*: Not insulting you OP, I know you just want a productive conversation, and you put the dumb term in scare quotes.

[–]Hax1600_ayyub 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm a guy & I get what you're saying but I still do think the pros of being a man outweigh the cons at least in the conservative religious shithole I live in, I can't imagine how shittier it'd be in counties like Saudi, Iran, etc.

If I had to make the choice given I'd be born in a somewhat progressive first-world country, then yeah idk maybe being a woman is better, But if I had to make the choice through a veil of ignorance I'd certainly choose to be a guy.

Also related to men showing weakness, you might like this Twitter thread I came across.

[–]Horny20yrold 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Look, you're not exactly wrong, but I think people in the first world (Western Europe, North America and Australia, for our purposes here. Correct me if you aren't living in one of those.) sometimes over simplify more conservative countries. Conservative is just not one thing.

For the 2 examples you mentioned, yes absolutely, I'm enraged and humiliated for all the women who live in those two countries and countries like them such as Afghanistan, what they do there is not the least bit a humane way to treat a human being, any human being.

But my country (Egypt, if you care to know) is not remotely like this, not the metropolitan centers at the very least (which easily hold 50% of the population). Women can drive, women can work, women are equal, no, more privileged than men in some legal aspects. And they still hold a lot of the traditional advantages women have in more conservative societies, like being held to different standards in a lot of situations and such.

I realize I'm the one who said people shouldn't compare their suffering to see who's the #1 most oppressed, but I'm just correcting what I see as a false dichotomy in your view. The world is not an element of {progressive, conservative}, it's different shades of the 2 extremes. Every mix and shade of the 2 privilege women in different ways, yes it always comes with strings attached but privilege is privilege. Ultimately it's the feminists who invented this dumb and pathetic term because their small brains can't see other's suffering or emphasize with it if that other happens to have a Y instead of X by sheer chance, I myself don't go through life counting every privilege of everyone around me, I want everyone to have a good life.

[–]Hax1600_ayyub 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Fair point, obviously I agree that the world isn't a binary progressive/conservative, I was just loosely using it to make a point.

I think what most anti-feminists miss is that there are very real examples of absurd restrictions on women's freedom among some developing/traditional/religious countries (you can use whatever distinction you want to but you get the idea) - bcs religion, "tradition" or whatever. And while I agree that the anti-feminists pushback is good , it feels (to me) like they are in a way trying to make the actual injustices seem like not big of a deal. I think that their critiques apply better to somewhat “progressive” countries (progressive in terms of equal women's rights)

I'm obviously not implying that men don't have it bad - there's a lot of shit in it for us too. That is why I'm opposed to feminists screaming "patriarchy" at everything and assuming that just bcs we might be better means we have no problem.

I live in a southeast Asian country and come from a Muslim background and I’ve had experiences of my sex making my life much easier & my options much broader (as opposed to being married at 18), So I am kind of grateful for being born male and I wouldn't oppose feminist movements in my country - as long as they don't try to turn the tables.

[–]Horny20yrold 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

as long as they don't try to turn the tables.

That's the neat part, though, they always try to do that. No matter what's the context.

Movements with similar goals take inspiration from each other, the feminism of a more traditional country wants to reach the state of the feminism in more developed country, so they (the more traditional feminism) ape the tactics, the vocabulary, and - finally - the goals and assumptions implicit in the more developed feminist movement.

It happened, for example, in my country. Where the feminist movement already imitates western feminism through Twitter.

On the one hand this is good, let them discredit themselves early when they don't have power and media behind their backs, on the other hand this basically means that every women's movement anywhere reachable by the internet is at the risk of being infected by the mind virus that is mainstream feminism, and then they either win and it's bad for men or they lose and it's bad for women.

It's a problem, I won't pretend I have a solution. But I don't think you can just go through life naively assuming you can make peace with a movement full of irrational fear, rage and hatred toward you, a movement that thinks you are the living manifestation of a thousands-year-olds institution made specifically to oppress them.

You, and every man regardless of his views on women, is an enemy of feminism, or at least a potential enemy, which is just as bad if not even worse. (see how female feminists treat male feminists, their contempt for them is even larger than ordinary men. That's because they are seen as 'spies' for the enemy.)

Whatever you do is never enough, every single issue and every single demand will be pushed and pushed and pushed to its final extremes, and when you finally push back or call for a slowdown, you no longer exist. That's how feminism operates and that's how it will always operates, it's the logical consequence of all the nonsense they made up about the patriarchy and how men made it and maintained it.

As Karen Straughan once said, 'feminism is an engine, not a pendulum', you can never appease feminists by compromise, they will never retreat on their own without pushback, if you don't push back you will be trampled.

[–]Hax1600_ayyub 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It happened, for example, in my country. Where the feminist movement already imitates western feminism through Twitter.

It's good to remember that anyone who expresses their radical opinions on Twitter isn't usually representative of the population (only 2% of your country uses it) - the "hot takes" are what drive engagement.

You, and every man regardless of his views on women, is an enemy of feminism, or at least a potential enemy, which is just as bad if not even worse. (see how female feminists treat male feminists, their contempt for them is even larger than ordinary men. That's because they are seen as 'spies' for the enemy

I feel that this is a crude generalization of feminism, sure there are lots of feminists who believe in shit like this and pushback against them is totally justified , But there are definitely lot more who don't. I can see why you'd think that some feminists are ignorant & mean-spirited, but to view all of them as that seems to me too big of a leap.

Anti-feminists: "feminists think all men are potential enemies!"

Feminist: "MRA's think all feminists are all just misandrists"

Don't you see both of them using the same demonization tactics.

I sense that if people keep arguing like this , there isn't any common ground to build upon , no resolution to reach - it's just angry people talking past each other. Could you name at least one feminist who you consider thoughtful even though they're critical of your beliefs and you consider them wrong ? being willing to say that "the other side maybe has a point this time" is pretty useful for both movements.

That's the neat part, though, they always try to do that. No matter what's the context.

But I could totally see someone using this as a cudgel for any equality movement. A racist could push back against racial equality by saying "Oh look at all the woke SJWs in the US, if we give you equality, you all will inevitably turn the tables as they did" and they'd nicely justify the status quo. Or for feminism something like - If we let women drive, we'll have to concede to every one of their demands till we end up like those *westerners*

I guess my question is: how else could women fight for their rights in such oppressive countries?

[–]Horny20yrold 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's good to remember that anyone who expresses their radical opinions on Twitter isn't usually representative of the population

Feminists are not a huge population, Twitter users represent a much larger percentage of them than that argument would have you believe.

Ultimately, that's what we all can see of feminism. If "good feminists" are so offended the image of feminism is angry man haters, why don't they spend more time policing and silencing the man haters in their midst ? it's actually the exact opposite that happens in reality. The man haters lead the movement, they have the ideological center of mass in their midst, semi-reasonable feminists who call out their sexism are called "pick me"s and driven away, eventually the only good feminists that remain, if any, are those who learned to be quiet when the lead is doing the daily crusade against men.

Anti-feminists: "feminists think all men are potential enemies!"

Feminist: "MRA's think all feminists are all just misandrists"

I'm sorry but I view it as dishonest to equate the two, I have never, and I mean never, seen a feminist say to another feminist "that's misandrist". Never. I have seen it dozens of times on men's rights sub, on this sub and even the other right-leaning one, mods constantly ban and delete comments because of the (sometimes imagined) misogyny.

If we police ourself so much, if we constantly ban and suppress misogyny (even though men's rights has virtually 0 influence on mainstream media, unlike feminism), I think we have a right to expect the other side to do the same. And if they don't do the same, or even the bare minimum, I think we're in a position to call them misandrist or at least indifferent-to-misandry without them being in a legitimate position to complain about anything.

Could you name at least one feminist who you consider thoughtful even though they're critical of your beliefs and you consider them wrong ?

Plenty are, I can't really name one because I don't listen to them regularly anymore. But when random internet scrolling leads me to a feminist outside of her usual ritualistic "fuck men" temper tantrum, I usually agree. I never said the movement is completely worthless, it's just irredeemably poisoned and hateful.

But I could totally see someone using this as a cudgel for any equality movement.

Yes, that is indeed a problem. It's basically the prisoner's dilemma : Women don't have some rights in some societies, maybe we should do as feminists say and give them those rights, I'm sure they won't ask for more because that would be privilege. That's indeed the decent thing to think and do, but it turned out to be wrong, in the societies that feminism made gains, they never stopped on their own, always asking and pushing for more until they are privileged and then some.

So now you're in a dilemma, do you stand behind the movement that repeatedly broke its promises in the hope they won't do it this time, or do you just play it safe and keep the status quo as is? Neither is a good choice, but the 2 are all there are.

I guess my question is: how else could women fight for their rights in such oppressive countries?

Fair point, I think a new name would be worth a try. It sounds naive, but names actually have very strong influences on movements, I think if a women's rights advocacy movement adopted a new name, perhaps "Egalitarianism", and explicitly rejected all the mumbo jumbo that feminism believes in, I think it has a pretty good chance people would see it as a good faith attempt to improve women's lives and try it.

[–]Hax1600_ayyub 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Right. I agree with a substantial portion of what you said here and also we don't wanna keep this going forever yh?

Btw, I enjoyed our discussion. I think I came across your profile somewhere on r/FeMRADebates. I've been periodically reading some of your replies since I seem to bump into your profile a lot (like "AH I remember this dude, letz see what he's talking abt now" - also ig having such a chad profile name helps). You seem like quite an interesting fellow (albeit a tad bit too angry sometimes!)

Anyways Cheers, and hope 2022's a good year for you!

[–]Horny20yrold 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why thank you! Very flattered my writing voice is distinctive enough for you to remember.

May it be a happy 2022 to you and all good men and women everywhere.

[–]Carkudo 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm a 38 year old incel working a low level job in a traditional corporate environment. I get comments about not being married at this age. I'm distrusted. I'll be the first to go should anything happen. No, I don't feel privileged at all.

[–]Bubbly_Success9403 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm in early 30s and never been in a relationship. I've been discriminated against on countless job interviews. Being a single man means I'm considered less reliable, creepy and basically I feel invisible.

[–]Maephia 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Male privilege is only true for attractive and charismatic men (preferably wealthy). If you're an average guy and aren't charismatic then society will not care about you at all. And if you are more of the timid/quiet type then be ready to be constantly treated like a child by everyone, as if being a man was all about being loud.

[–]Separate_Activity_37 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A confident sometimes. There are some scenarios where I definitely think I have been privileged because of my sex, and others where I would say I was marginalized for it.

[–]mushysandwich121 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Please tell me what special treatment I am supposed to get for having a dick..? I see pretty girls and strong chad-esque guys get lots of attention and privilege from eachother. Like being trusted from the very beginning, given the best deals and striking great business relationships with lots of smiles and very little pushback. It's not their Gender - they're just normies.

You think smaller, less stereotypically masculine guys and below average girls get that kind of treatment in society? ha! noooo.....

Then when Chads treat them poorly they literally turn their attention to the guy next to them and blame him.

[–]Tedfordshire 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I understand your frustration but please don't become bitter and hateful. And remember women still deserve your respect as individuals, even if as a collective their behaviour is troubling.

[–]mushysandwich121 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You didnt even understand my comment. Most of it isn't about gender. It's about people automatically trusting others who look nice/pretty. Chad guys get lots of privilege from other guys. Time and time again I've seen "strong" guys spout the dumbest shit but people really try to understand them, even if they're wrong, will want to believe them.

Pretyy girls who go around scorning everyone they walk past. I see their expressions... but all changes when a strong guy or another stereotypically pretty girl walks past or hovers in their space. They automatically trust them.

People like good looking people. I think its called the halo effect, but I didn't need a study to prove that existed - I see it on the daily.

[–]politicsthrowaway230 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unsure about the word "sex" here. I guess "privileged because of your sex/AGAB" and "privileged because of your gender" are separate questions?

The short answer is "in a couple of areas". I would not say men are leagues apart from women, day-to-day there is very little difference.

The main way I feel I'm "privileged" is that I feel like I'm less likely to experience catcalling and (at least certain types of) sexual harassment from random strangers. Indeed these things haven't happened to me yet. I feel like much (sexual and otherwise) abuse of men happens behind closed doors or in plain sight but more through toxic relationship dynamics. Whether this is the "correct take" on it I'm not sure.

I'm maybe less weary of walking home in the dark or meet strangers and such than most women, but I think a lot of that is because women have it drilled in them to be cautious. (well, my parents tried to drill it into me but I always resisted to it and am maybe not careful enough now) If someone wanted to assault me or mug me, I don't think they would have that much more difficulty than with the average woman. Don't know whether to call that privilege or not because I don't think it translates into anything tangible. I think any incident happening to me would flip my opinion quickly enough.

I've never received gendered discouragement from family, but I have suffered discouragement.

I don't feel like my parents would have brought me up much different were I born a woman, but I really couldn't say since I don't have a sister. Can't think of anything else.

[–]Algiz56 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Non-USA perspective. (Eastern Europe, white straight married male of 30 y.o. From a country with strong tradition and family values).

Yes and no.

Yes, because

As a guy I am supposed to

  1. Be in charge in crisis situations.

  2. Provide and protect, though nothing bans my wife for going to work too.

  3. Have a higher salary and more value in the eyes of employers, because I am more reliable employee, because I am a husband and head of a family, so have things, that anchor me to workplace.

  4. Be responsible and show initiative.

  5. Be brave and self-confident. Also be honest and just.

What do I get for this.

  1. Respect and reverence. I am seen more "serious and reliable" than I was before marriage.

  2. My word is taken with much more weight.

  3. I have a say in any and all of my family's buisness.

  4. My issues are to be addressed for both my well-being and well-being of the ones who depend on me. So I do not have to just "suck it up" and "deal with it". If something bothers me, I can more or less freely talk about it.

All and all, this both gives me power and responsibility, stable background and feeling of being valued qnd cared about.

And no, because, guess what? Women get all the same boons, but for different set of responsibilities, wich is no less to mine.

[–]rammo123 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have privileges but I'm not privileged (as least not for my gender).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do recognize each gender has its privileges in different situations. But lately I struggle with loneliness and it feels very much like women have an advantage in that department. An active social life has so many benefits that it feels like a huge advantage to have in life, especially when we are becoming more and more isolated from each other as local community continues to dissolve. I'm tired of the notion that my gender "gatekeeps relationships" when I can't even get my foot in the door.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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