If abortion isn't murder (and I agree that it's not), then LPS (a.k.a. paper abortion) is not child abandonment. Why do so many fellow pro-choice leftists not make this connection?

Deadlocked02 · 2021-10-30T21:04:30+00:00

I won’t really speak for people who are against abortion, but it’s curious how heavily the rhetoric of those who are pro-abortion and in favor of forced fatherhood/child support relies on the same old tale of female hypoagency and male hyperagency. Women have a wide variety of contraceptive methods available to avoid a pregnancy, unlike men, who only really have one. Even so, the pro-choice narrative (who are also in favor of maternal surrender, I presume) offers nothing but utmost support for the side that has a myriad of methods at their disposal to avoid pregnancy, while simultaneously advocating for harsh penalties for the side that doesn’t have as many options. First, they’ll mention that contraceptive methods can fail. Sometimes they go even further and try to appeal to their opposers’ humanity, saying that women are humans and also make mistakes, that they shouldn’t be penalized for the rest of their lives for these mistakes. Funnily enough, none of these arguments matter when we’re talking about financial abortion. In fact, they’ll gladly use the same arguments their opposers use against them.

az226 · 2021-10-30T19:28:22+00:00

So funny how so many feminists say “leaving a child” well it’s not a child, it’s an embryo, and the woman gets exclusive decision rights if it becomes a child.

UnHope20 · 2021-10-30T21:40:22+00:00

I think you're asking the wrong question. You are trying to compare financial abortion to abortion of a pregnancy and the two aren't equal.

Instead, your question should be why is it that men can't have financial abortion while women can?

Women have the option of pregnancy abortion AND financial abortion..

Not sure about other countries, but in the U.S. every State has a what is called a Safe Haven Law where women can drop their baby off at one of many state designated places such as police stations, fire depts or hospitals with no questions asked.

I know someone who works in obstetrics and she has told me stories of patients delivering babies and promptly exiting hospitals leaving the kid.

It's 100% legal for a woman to drop her kid off at police station, or leave the baby in the hospital so long as its done within the legal timeframe.

Most States give a mother 30 days from the birth of her child to forfeit her legal obligations, but there are some that allow as much as one year for her to decide.

So the question need not ever compare abortion of a pregnancy to financial. If we just look at financial abortion, we can see that there is discrimination. Women have the right to a financial abortion while men don't.

Termination of an unwanted pregnancy is about avoiding the biological, psychological, and social consequences of an unwanted pregnancy at least as much as the financial consequences. Hence I'm going to say that there isn't a great analogy here.

There is no male equivalent of pregnancy (At least not yet) in the human species, but there is a male equivalent of bills lol.

WeEatBabies · 2021-10-30T18:56:20+00:00

- Why do so many fellow pro-choice leftists not make this connection?

They are not leftist ;)

They want your money, not equality ;)

austin101123 · 2021-10-30T23:33:41+00:00

Agreed. If you are leaving an embryo, not a child, how is that a problem? You would think killing is the worse one if you were to compare the two. FYI, I am pro abortion.

It's a complete double standard.

DialecticSkeptic · 2021-10-31T02:53:23+00:00

I hate it when people drop acronyms like everyone should just know what they mean. I'm sorry but what the fuck is "LPS"?

(When you use an acronym, define it at its first use so that your reader from that point onward knows what you are saying.)

BitsAndBobs304 · 2021-10-30T20:37:34+00:00

Because feminists dont want to help men and have women pay for their choices, and the state wants someone to pay for the child, and society wants productive cogs, not people. Baby trap is one of the pillars of capitalism

peanutbutterjams · 2021-10-31T03:53:34+00:00

They think it's child abandonment because they believe that the mother should be able to choose for the father. If she makes the choice to have the baby, the father is legally responsible for it.

In other words, he has to subsidize her choice. For 18 years.

Not supporting paper abortions is not supporting men's right to choose. It's anti-choice.

BloomingBrains · 2021-10-31T08:39:02+00:00

I don't think its really about the debate of "personhood arising at conception" or not. You can make high minded philosophical arguments about the difference between personhood, human cells, and how that applies to murder, but the truth that most people don't base their beliefs on that kind of rigorous thinking. It's more about politics and personal wants.

In this case, I think the reason is because the people you're addressing are not truly liberal to begin with. I would feel more comfortable calling them female chauvinists. It quite literally comes down to something as simple as "restricting biological abortion is bad because womens rights but restricting financial abortion is good because womens rights". You see this same kind of logic with literally any other issue. Empathy gap? Well, if men are suffering emotionally its because other men are doing it to them, and its a sign of toxic masculinity, so this is actually a misogyny problem, and oh by the way women suffer at the hands of emotionally distant men (even though our culture glorifies them, but that's a topic for another time). Everything is always about women; that's what gynocentricism is.

You are correct though when you point out that denying financial abortion is perched on the same roost as evangelical philosophy. But pointing this out will get you nowhere. Most so-called "liberals" are a lot closer to the far right than they think on almost every issue, so what difference does it make? They'll just bury their head in the sand like they do with all the rest.

Hopefully this post didn't end up sounding too dismissive, because I don't mean it that way at all. Just telling it how I see it.

john_nash1 · 2021-10-31T10:07:17+00:00

Their argument is that paper abortion hurts a child(that is alibe). Because it works when the child is born. While actual abortion happens when it is still a fetus(so not alive).

They ignore the fact that if the intention for a paper abortion is stated before birth, this makes the choice to bring the fetus to life, according to their concept of life, the choice of the mother, and so, her responsibility.

This is a combination of a selective application of the concept of responsibility. And another insidious tactic that even has its own name in my language. The tactic is basically to force you into a situation where you have to make a choice, such that if you make a choice that has a negative effect on someone, it appears that you are the one causing that harm, even though their actions lead to that situation, knowing what your choice would be.

It goes like this: -your friend buys a new phone with their salary, leaving nothing for food and rent. They call you and ask you for money, otherwise they will be evicted and starve. -you tell them that you have your own expenses and can't help them now, you need to fix your car. -they get angry and say that you would rather fix your car than help them not get evicted, which is a very selfish choice.

So it appears to everyone that you are a bad friend who would put his car ahead of his friend's well being. Even though he is the one who made that choice and put his phone ahead of his well being.

Similarly, in the case abortion, if the father decides not to pay for the child, he appears to be the bad one, because now the child may not get everything they need, even though it is the mother who chose to bring the child to life, knowing that there won't be a father willing to pay for their expenses.

JonWood007 · 2021-11-02T00:48:20+00:00

Because they're not really lefties.

Here's the thing about a lot of the modern "left" within the democratic party, they're not really on the left. They're insufferably far left on certain social issues, but are otherwise conservative.

So you got this class of feminist who is like, ABORTION IS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE, AND IF YOU'RE NOT A WOMAN STFU. Everything to them is about it being a "woman" thing. it's intellectually lazy. There's no real reason for them to be against abortion other than it being a "woman's issue". I accept it as fine for multiple reasons. There's the fact that my political view is inherently secular, and most arguments against abortion seem religious in nature. Then there's the fact that I support bodily autonomy. And I support reproductive freedom. And then I look at the science and see no reason to really grant any legal rights to a fetus before 24 weeks. So I have all of these philosophical arguments working in tandem that basically amount to a STRONG pro choice perspective. I cover it from multiple angles.

For these feminists, they only care about the bodily autonomy/womens' rights thing. That's ALL they care about. Then you have a lot of these feminists who are actually like, christian and see abortion as morally wrong. That's where you get people like hillary clinton, for example, hardcore on "feminism" but also religious and dislikes it. And then you have a lot of people who are economically moderate or conservative and actually believe in traditional values and self sufficiency and all of that crap, but they just happen to be pro choice because "women."

So, they'll be insufferable on the abortion issue with the whole ITS A WOMAN ISSUE AND SHUT UP IF YOU'RE A MAN but then the second I suggest financial abortion, because, well, again, reproductive freedom, and the fact that I believe if a woman chooses to have a kid they can choose to take responsibility. Now all of the sudden, no, it's 50/50. Suddenly, the man should've thought twice before they had sex. All of the sudden the patriarchy is a good thing when it's convenient for them and men should step up and be breadwinners. All of the sudden men should take "personal responsibility" for their "choices."

These guys turn into fiscal and social conservatives the second it stops being explicitly a womens' issue and start parroting the same anti choice arguments I used to make when I was a religious conservative. because they're not really philosophically consistent lefties. They're more conservatives who happen to tend to base a lot of their identities around being a "feminist".

Like on the political compass a lot of "feminists" are libleft on "feminist" issues but then flip to be auth right (ie, conservative) the second mens' issues come up.

Zaronax · 2021-10-30T20:11:22+00:00

As others have mentioned; Alimony.

quesadilla_dinosaur · 2021-10-30T21:19:19+00:00

Okay, I think the defining line is that abortion is justified because of bodily autonomy rights. The fetus is entirely dependent on the womb of the woman and without the woman believing that the fetus should grow in her, it wouldn't exist.

The bodily autonomy argument for men in LPS isn't as strong (or as clear) because men can simply decide not to live with their children with minimal bodily impact. The child doesn't have to be dependent on their body (directly).

I think the best way for any type of "financial abortion" to work is for it to happen within the earlier stages of pregnancy (within the first trimester -- before the viability cutoff for abortion rights), to give women enough time to decide whether they want to have the child or not.

I'm a big supporter of reproductive rights for both men and women but I think there's a fundamental difference between abortion and LPS.

enjoycarrots · 2021-10-31T01:39:09+00:00

They think that the double standard is justified by biological reality (the woman being the one to physically carry the child, such that it's her bodily autonomy in question), coupled with the best interest of the child. I disagree, but there it goes.

a-man-from-earth · 2021-10-31T13:58:20+00:00

[permanently deleted]

revente · 2021-10-31T10:24:18+00:00

If abortion isn't murder (and I agree that it's not), then LPS (a.k.a. paper abortion) is not child abandonment.

No? In case of abortion there is no child but once it grts born, you do abandon it with a paper abortion.

alialahmad1997 · 2021-10-30T19:52:45+00:00

I can give you insight in their point of view

The child is not alife in the featus but is alife later and then it is your responsibility

My personal opinion is this is one of the areas where equality is absolutely impossible some one will always eat shit

You eaither make the mother eat shit and requires both parents to accept abortion for her to do one Or force abortion if not 2 onboard both are not fair for the mother

Or you make the mother make the sole decision and the father must accept which is not fair for the father

Or you allow your the father to eliminate parental rights which will lead to a kid with no father who is innocent in all of this which is not fair for the child

over348 · 2021-10-30T18:49:14+00:00

Even though its shitty I do think a man should have the choice to leave a child if he dosent want it. Still a scumbag move