I’m so tired of being a male advocate

goldenjuniper · 2020-08-29T00:12:23+00:00

It's interesting that any bad actors in feminism aren't "real feminists", but every asshole that posts on mensrights is representative of the whole movement.

DanteLivra · 2020-08-29T00:26:39+00:00

I feel you, I'm so tired of seeing the same stupidity and tribalism every day.

I have been with my girlfriend for 3 years now, happily and all that. Yet I'm still getting called an incel the second I show some support for male victims, the second I'm pointing out that some article from the Guardian is more hysteria than facts. It's tiresome.

Don't even get me started on rape and sexual aggressions. It's literally my field of work and I can't understand how much people are ignorant.

red_philosopher · 2020-08-28T22:43:18+00:00

You can love your life happily despite, and without concern for, people who choose to embrace and shelter hatred in their lives.

Keep that in mind always.

defo18 · 2020-08-29T01:44:01+00:00

I truly believe feminism only took off because Society already looked at women as victims and as if they could do no wrong. If we truly we're supposed to add equal than any woman who goes on and complains and whines would be made fun of and treated like a b**** because that's what men who complain, even when the complaints are right ,are treated like

So course now you have a bunch of today's generation of women out complaining and making their voices heard which is a good thing don't get me wrong but the only reason why they can is because nobody wants to tell them they are wrong.

I remember growing up with the feminist type women of today and believe me they were the queen bees of the school who were very rude and ruthless

DevilComeKnockin · 2020-08-29T00:40:52+00:00

Back when I was in a polyamory group, the feminists would post all kinds of misandrist stuff, and on the one occasion that a guy started bringing up the fact that men have problems too, he was instantly attacked. The one time that I mentioned the fact that, no matter what else happens, MGTOW means less damaged men seeking out a woman to magically fix them (which is better for everybody), I got put on probation.

This was in a group that was reliably anti-TERF. They booted people over that every few weeks. But casual misandry was applauded and CELEBRATED. I was a big trans-activist back in those days, being somewhat trans-something too. Eventually all the hatred drove me out.

What's really going on, is that Male Disposability is enforced in all places and at all times... Women feel an overwhelming urge to tear down men for any excuse, or no excuse. They simply *must* do it. I don't think they even know why, exactly. But do it they will... always. So yes, any kind of thing which is set to benefit men, will be derided and considered hateful. It's just the way the world works.

I'm sorry that you're running into this kind of pushback. It's very othering. And it's the reason the MGTOW simply avoid trying any kind of activism or recruiting or anything else. They simply know better. You see... it's women who do the Redpilling. Always has been. Eventually something breaks in a man and he goes looking for help. And they are welcomed with open arms.

But I can say, that your efforts here, in this very subreddit, do make a difference. The sense of community, of not being alone, really does matter.

a-man-from-earth · 2020-08-28T22:24:04+00:00

A lot of us here have similar experiences. Have a virtual hug! You're not alone.

AskingToFeminists · 2020-08-29T04:47:10+00:00

You wonder why things are like that, why people seem to buy the feminist BS. The short answer would be "a combination of a maladaptive instinct we often call malagency reinforced by a dysfunctional social context, and kept up by several forms of cognitive biases."

A bit more detail is : humans have a natural tendency to assume women are in need of help, and men should be the ones giving it to them or they are worthless. Society built themselves with that as a template and kept reinforcing it. So feminism was only a natural and expected continuation of it. And once people are convinced (easily) that feminism is right, it is costly to them to admit it is wrong. Especially when every instinct they have scream at them that women must be in need of help, no matter what.

Trying to convince someone that men need help in a world filled with feminist messaging is like trying to convince someone phobic of snake that some snakes are harmless while there is a mob right next to them running and screaming in panic "oh my god, a snake! It's so dangerous! We are all going to die!".

Some people might manage to get the message, but the overwhelming majority will just join the mob and start screaming in panic.

For a much more in depth explanation as to how things got that way, my advice is to open YouTube, look up Karen Straughan's channel, sort her videos by oldest and 20+mn long, and start watching.

HistoryHobbyist · 2020-08-29T06:26:58+00:00

I feel that immensely. I’m very much a leftist. It’s so odd how people on the left preach about equality and solidarity but yet when you bring up any issues that tend to affect men disproportionately, you are suddenly met with insults like “reactionary”, “incel”, “misogynist”, etc. It’s like they hold you at gun point and you can only talk about the issues faced by currently or formerly marginalized groups. Bring up one issue faced by men and you get shut down. The most frustrating part is that a lot of feminists acknowledge that these issues affect men, they just use the same scapegoats to avoid talking about them. For example, blaming these very problems on “toxic masculinity” or claiming that these problems were “created by men” and therefore, since the problems we face were created decades ago by someone who happened to be the same gender as us, we apparently aren’t allowed to want to fight those issues.

I have unironically seen more self-proclaimed “feminists” acting reactionary than MRA’s. I may not agree with every MRA I come across or see but I don’t see a whole lot of them bashing women or rejecting trans people. Meanwhile, I’ve seen plenty of these “feminists” flame men, be transphobic, and call for men to be financially exploited by women.

And you’re right, this idea that we’re still living in a “patriarchy” in the western world is some of the biggest horse shit I have ever heard. And the best part is that the same feminists who claim this can never back it up. Their only “proof” of it is the gender “pay” gap which we’ve already debunked and established that it’s a gap of average earnings, not average wages.

Moronic-Simpleton · 2020-08-28T22:12:00+00:00

I’ve seen this sentiment often over here, you’re not alone.

MealReadytoEat_ · 2020-08-29T05:02:27+00:00

Hey, I'm also a trans women, and I've been in these spaces for most of a decade. Misandry has always been a serious issue in women's movements and society in general, the urge to protect women is strong in all extant societies although it varies considerably.

Demiansky · 2020-08-28T22:22:42+00:00

I see some pretty heinous things said about women in some "Red pilled" spaces. Mind you, it's probably just 10 percent of the people, but it's definitely there and on par with some on the contemptuous things said about men in, say, Two X Chromosomes sub. So there's sin to go around for sure. But I'm rather tired of caring about this issue, because it seems so futile. The right wing MRAs lament the loss of a time when men were coerced to be men and women were coerced to be women, and the left wing feminist crowd is completely oblivious to the unique challenges and woes of men (and they will call you an Incel if you say otherwise, perhaps even people who are close to you).

It feels like trying to fight two armies of a million people to your left and your right all by yourself. Sadly, I feel like the best thing to do is just give up and stop wasting any more mental bandwidth on larger societal problems.

Vandechoz · 2020-08-29T04:47:51+00:00

Need I remind you that it was only homosexual males, not females, killed during the holocaust, a category that included trans women?

Yeah, actually. That doesn't really get brought up a lot; not sure I've heard it before. Of course, you know why.

omegaphallic · 2020-08-29T08:31:58+00:00

Trans women are just welcome as Cis women in the MRA, as far as I'm concerned.

hypercube885 · 2020-08-29T08:58:42+00:00

That thread you were in a few days ago is absolutely terrible. Jesus fucking Christ. I'd understand if it was just a vent, but everyone in that thread constantly not only apologized for but promoted the idea that men are terrible, while downvoting others who actually tried to help the OP handle her struggles in a healthy way. It's almost what I'd expect from PinkPillFeminism or FemaleDatingStrategy, not an intersectional LGBT support community.

Especially the top comment which victim-blames men who are victims of sexism:

So many excuses in this thread. It genuinely does not matter that "not all men" are scumbags, the issue is that it's completely acceptable - even encouraged. The fact that these men are also victims of the society that made them this way does not detract from the responsibility of their actions.

Remember, if you're a man who got raped, and people treated you horribly afterwards because of rape culture, that's partially your fault for being male and participating in the patriarchy. Same if you got screwed over by the justice system, or if you got killed by a cop, or if you were suicidal and killed yourself. It's all just male infighting!

So to continue this lovely story, at first the subreddit was clapping and cheering for the OP. But then whatever was left of her mask slipped off even more, and she went on a short screed about how testosterone makes men more dangerous. And that was the tipping point; the point where they've decided she was going a little too far, because her biological essentialism is the exact same argument TERFs use to justify demonizing trans women.

I also checked her post history, and her latest post went even more mask-off, seemingly implying that lesbian trans women are different from straight trans women; you know, maybe it's a fetish? I didn't even know it was possible for a trans woman to be a TERF, but here we are. If that isn't a clear example of how misandry is connected to TERFism, I don't know what is. The subreddit's lack of awareness of what ideology they're promoting is so astounding.

They also called her out for being transphobic against trans men and non-binary people who use male hormones. And they're right; this kind of blatant misandry also hurts trans men. I made an entire post about it, where the OP of a Twitter thread, along with other trans men, say they feel dehumanized in the LGBT community for being male. If the level of misandry in LGBT spaces is this bad, I can easily understand why.

None of the leftist or LGBT spaces I visit online have ever gotten that terrible. So occasionally I think maybe misandry isn't that big of a problem. Maybe people are just criticizing toxic masculinity, not men in general. Maybe acknowledging that patriarchy hurts men too is enough. Maybe no one actually hates men, and everything I believe is just MRA fearmongering.

But with that Twitter thread, and now this, along with other examples, I really can't say there isn't a big problem. I would say that top comment is an isolated incident, but considering everything else, it's probably a mask-off moment for everyone who says "patriarchy hurts men too" and "sexism against men is caused by other men".

If they're allowed to "vent" I'm allowed to as well. Fuck everyone in that thread, especially the author of that top comment. Fuck everyone who readily and happily demonizes an entire gender identity. I hate society. Let it burn already.

Dembara · 2020-08-29T01:15:35+00:00

Completely agree. Personally, I think a lot of trans issues would have so much less public vitriol if people were willing to confront and recognize their biases against men.

Need I remind you that it was only homosexual males, not females, killed during the holocaust, a category that included trans women?

Just a tiny nitpick, but you should always capitalize the Holocaust when you use it to refer to the campaign of mass slaughter enacted by Nazi Germany. The term itself is kind of problematic (literally referring to a burnt religious offering from translations of the Hebrew Bible). Indeed, you will still see the term holocaust in some english versions of the bible.

Also, tworth noting they did kill lesbians as well, it just wasn't systematic but done at the discretion of Nazi officers (which was fairly common). For the most part, Lesbians were not persecuted but there were quite a few cases since a lot of the officials had quite a bit of discretion if they wanted to round up more people than necessary.

Blauwpetje · 2020-08-29T11:02:21+00:00

Love your rant. I always try to remain nuanced myself but actually feel exactly this way.

When I discovered the MRM and criticism of feminism about 6 or 7 years ago, it was by accident. Information was very hard to find, so I thought: we must just make it more available and loads of reasonable people will change their minds. (Later I discovered it wasn't just feminism, but regressive pseudo-left identity politics in general, though feminism was at the core of it.) I linked all kinds of interesting articles and videos on Facebook, on my own page, on discussion pages, reacting to others; mostly very moderate things like Christina Hoff Sommers. Nothing happened! Not at all the snowball of people informing themselves and sharing the information in turn I thought would have been reasonable to expect. Maybe there were fewer reasonable people than I had hoped.

Sometimes things happened. The Red Pill film getting a benevolent review in HuffPost (really!). Laci Green trying to start discussions between feminists and anti-feminists, but while some anti's reacted positively, the feminists simply kicked her out of the movement. Jordan Peterson (whatever you may think of him) writing a bestseller. The New York Times, normally IdPol, having a big article about the International Dark Web. And lately the cancel culture-letter in Harper's. But the regressive left only got stronger. Big companies like Gillette made misandrist commercials, and anarchists I know liked that without for a moment smelling a rat. Biden already knew his VP candidate had to be a woman of color before choosing the best candidate.

6 or 7 years of online discussions, always reckoning with aggressive and often personal reactions ('Haha another incel speaking') is exhausting and probably unhealthy. Sometimes I think the populist right must first smash the feminist left before the left can start again from scratch. But they have been warned when Trump won last time (Mark Lilla wrote a rather opportunistic but still interesting pamphlet about that) and nothing changed then. So maybe I should take a break, but that's also hard once you've become engaged so much.

omegaphallic · 2020-08-29T08:32:49+00:00

I take breaks from this stuff everyone once in awhile and lean into my religious faith.

Xemnas81 · 2020-08-29T15:51:57+00:00

Here's my thoughts on how tiring it is to be involved with Men's groups. I think Feminism is more satisfying because you might actually profit from it. Women see Women making accusations and telling their story and they glomp onto it, say it 'affects them all', they exploit it to attack their enemies, they share it online, etc. They act like an actual political group that pursues it's own privileges.

Male advocates do not do this. From my perspective coming from being in a Feminist relationship as a House-Husband, these communities and subreddits are more about the issues in a broad sense, without the culture and tactics that made Feminism successful and popular.

I think what some people call Misandry is also called the Compassion gap. 'Women are Wonderful' and so the things people don't actually care about ie: 'rape, dv, sexism' suddenly appear to care again because it brings them closer to women. This also means that they have a privilege to engage in the most disgusting, hateful rhetoric imaginable on issues they can't comprehend. Frustratingly, they have build a wall around this rhetoric where merely pointing out is a crime. Your anger is justified and I believe you that this hurts trans women. The entire motive of terfs imo was to keep anyone born as male from sharing their privileges. I think maybe it's time to admit that in order for them to have their privilege others must suffer. But that won't happen, because Feminism is too valuable a line of defense and Men won't withdraw their support for it.

There is very little support anywhere for Men. If you post on these subs or communities at large about something that victimizes you, you are critiqued not advocated for. In Feminist culture you don't criticize victims you amplify them. This makes other women want to be involved, and offers an instant safe zone for abusive women. It's appealing to the worst human beings. What is appealing about Men's groups? About being put down or judged for posting on the only male groups available? There's no reward. There's no backup. There's no signal-boosting. There's no 'now is the time to listen to him!' being demanded of politicians, the UN, employers, women, etc.

I had gotten tired of these groups a long time ago, but I'm stuck to them because of what happened to me. I keep hoping that they move forward and become transformative. I can't blame anyone for getting tired of being a male advocate. Take care of yourself.

DevilishRogue · 2020-08-29T14:59:36+00:00

I don’t get why they talk about us like they do.

Because they are bad people actively interested in preventing equality where it disadvantages their side. Dismissing it as stupidity is giving benefit of the doubt that isn't earned. Some may be stupid but the vast majority know that they are anti-equality but feel it is justified and aren't prepared to challenge their reasons why they believe this to be so.

Gohorne · 2020-08-31T21:14:47+00:00

Stay strong and keep going.

liltotto · 2020-08-29T11:10:46+00:00

Unfortunately many people in r/MensRights tend to be bigoted regarding trans issues, so I guess there is some bigotry there although not nearly as much as one casually finds in feminist spaces, TERF and non TERF. They also tend to focus on issues like false accusations of sexual violence and neglect male suicide, homelessness, etc., which I think are as important if not more.

bigpapi579 · 2020-11-08T03:55:30+00:00

Incel/MRA-to-trans pipeline!

a-man-from-earth · 2020-08-28T22:16:56+00:00

your post is probably gonna be removed as rage-bait, i have done similar posts to you and get deleted, reddit in general is a cancerous site.

the lgbt community is toxic and i am bi, i don't identify with it, i am ashamed to be leftist.

i wish leftwing male advocates stopped victimizing themselves over the justified hatred mras have for leftwingers.

leave the lgbt cult, is not an inclusive community that promotes peace.

is a leftwing cult that requires you purity exams.

i have faced a lot of backlash from my lgbt''friends'' for my antifeminists views and ZERO BACKLASH from my conservative ''friends'' for being bi.

you're not experiencing anything blaire white didn't experience.

apparently being trans means you have to be a extremist sjw.

what kind of subs do you frequent too ?.

leave the lgbt places ?.

at the end of the day, ''lgbt'' is a feminist hijacked concept the literal opposite of the ''matilda's effect''.

Sister-Rhubarb · 2020-08-28T23:10:05+00:00

Like, why the hell do people unironically believe we live in a patriarchy, men have no issues, men are responsible for women’s issues, misandry doesn’t exist, women are still extremely oppressed etc.?

We live in capitalism, which is far worse than patriarchy. Men have issues. Some men are responsible for some women's issues. Misandry exists. Women are still extremely oppressed in some countries, slightly oppressed in some and not at all oppressed in others.

I don’t even get why people care about feminism nowadays. Compared to the severity of men’s issues, what feminists talk about often feels irrelevant. There’s been so much work done for women, but nothing for men, and it really shows.

That's probably because men started out with all the rights and privileges women had to fight for. Now is the time for men to fight for the rights and privileges they are missing.

XGC75 · 2020-08-28T23:19:48+00:00

Incels are men who have had bad experiences with women. Extreme feminists are women who have had bad experiences with men.

Title	I’m so tired of being a male advocate
Author	liltotto
Upvotes	208
Comments	70
Date	August 28, 2020 9:50 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/iigcp1/im_so_tired_of_being_a_male_advocate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/im-so-tired-of-being-a-male-advocate.1062901 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062901