It's not a men's issue, but we should have a discussion about abortion

loonthink · 2021-09-02T08:32:14+00:00

It's abundantly clear what the intent of restricting abortion to 6 weeks is; an effective ban on abortion in general. Many women will not even realise they are pregnant by that point, and I certainly do not think it's enough time to process what decision you want to make.

I know others have said you could travel to a state with a more liberal policy on abortion, but there's just something that strikes me as undignified and shameful about that. Having to "sneak off" away from home. There was a similar situation in Britain until recently, where women from Ireland had to come here if they wanted an abortion. Pro-lifers in Ireland would even use "just go to Britain if you want one" as an argument; which just strikes me as callous on their part.

I'm not sure what the answer is for the areas of America which are staunchly pro-life. I've always found it pretty funny that these areas tend also to have the strongest support for the death penalty.

As an aside, I would advocate for a form of "male abortion", as men are presently completely at the mercy of women over whether they become an unwilling fathers or not. There should be a legalistic form of abortion available to males, where you can dispense any legal or financial obligation towards a child. It should entail anonymity from that child too.

quesadilla_dinosaur · 2021-09-02T08:53:57+00:00

> Understanding and promoting birth control methods, doing your own part with prophylactics, having the hard conversation about what would you do if someone you were seeing were to become pregnant - there are tons of ways we can help people through this, even if we can't change the laws themselves.

This. I can't highlight this enough.

Abortion is both a women's issue and a men's issue.

MelissaMiranti · 2021-09-02T02:36:04+00:00

Abortion is an issue that affects men too, since an unexpected baby can derail a man's life about as much as it does a woman's life.

Vandechoz · 2021-09-02T04:23:07+00:00

what's the logic on the 6 weeks? what stage of development are they going for, there?

parahacker · 2021-09-02T09:31:16+00:00

Agreed. A 10 thousand dollar bounty on reporting women who get an abortion?

Horrifying. Dystopian. Un-American. Un-Texan, for chrissakes. A state that values freedom above all, does something straight out of a George Orwell novel? What the fuck?

This is a step backwards for everyone, not just women.

Agreed.

SpamandEGs · 2021-09-02T13:31:36+00:00

Abortion is an issue that affects everyone, for no issue exists that only affect exactly half of the population. What Texas did is horrible to say the least and it should be oppossed and discussed by this sub.

SsoulBlade · 2021-09-02T04:28:16+00:00

We can't say it is not a mens issue when the same fetus will make us pay for 18 years or more.

Like feminists say. It take two to tango. Why when it comes to abortion that is ignored but when a women makes a decision without our consent it becomes an 18 year prison and the "It takes two to tango" gets thrown around?

wouldeye · 2021-09-02T04:03:52+00:00

It IS a men’s issue

LacklustreFriend · 2021-09-02T14:21:48+00:00

The fundamental issue is that there is no objective, empirical definition of when life (or personhood) begins. Everyone likes to dance around or ignore this fact (usually because it's not convenient politically) despite the fact it is so central to the issue. In my opinion there can be no objective definition, as the question is fundamentally a normative one. We can objectively determine the wavelength of light that corresponds to a particular colour, but we can not objectively determine when a shade of green becomes blue.

But I think we can put the morality question in a box and realize that no matter what we do, there will always be those that seek abortions, and they deserve to be able to do so in safe and effective ways.

This is a really terrible argument, and if you want to argue in favour of removing arbortion restrictions there are far better arguments. It's begging the question, by assuming abortion is a morally acceptable or amoral act in the first place, which is the primary issue with abortion. We can rephrase the argument as:

If we assume abortion is moral and realize that no matter what we do, there will always be those that seek abortions, and they deserve to be able to do so in safe and effective ways.

Alternatively we might see how this argument might apply to other acts:

But I think we can put the morality question of murder in a box and realize that no matter what we do, there will always be those that seek to murder, and they deserve to be able to do so in safe and effective ways.

Instead, the argument in favour of abortion has to be predicated that it is a moral good or at least amoral. Typically this takes the form of the "clump of cells" types of argument, though there are certainly other arguments one can make.

We also should acknowledge the huge inconsistencies when it comes to abortion. For example, many jurisdictions allow abortions up to the start of the third trimester. However, the earliest viable fetuses/babies have survived from before this period, and is likely to go further back with increasing medical technology. If you subscribe to the "viability" standard of abortion, then this creates a conflict.

Another contradiction is the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act 2004" in the US (and its international equivalents), which considers an embryo or fetus as a legal victim of crimes (e.g. it is homicide if you attack a pregnant woman which results in the fetus' death, or double homicide if you kill both). This covers many states that have liberal abortion laws, creating an inherent contradiction (philosophically) with abortion. Presumably many people who support abortion access also consider it a crime or deserving of harsher punishment to kill a fetus outside of the context of abortion.

A woman miscarries early into her pregnancy, and is heartbroken. Where does she fit into all this? Is she wrong to mourn her lost child, given it is just a "clump of cells"? (Hey, she might even be "normalizing" the perspective that embryos or fetuses are alive and thus undermining abortion rights!) While the definition of life is the core issue with abortion, there are also many other philosophical questions it raises. Even if we assume that a fetus isn't alive, does that mean the fetus has no moral worth? Can a category for fetuses exist between "human life/personhood" and "meaningless matter" (we already do it for animals!)? Can a fetus have some value, but not the full value of personhood? Does that affect the moral position of abortion?

Can one abortion be more or less moral than another abortion? Is an abortion due to life-threatening medical issues morally equivalent to an abortion because a women doesn't want a child to slow down her career advancement?

One might even make a radical argument in favour of abortion. Peter Singer, for example, has some very... interesting opinions on abortions, or more specifically infanticide. That is, Singer sees infanticide moral equivalent or at least very similar to abortions, being generally in favour of both. Perhaps you just completely reject the concept of the sanctity of life as Singer does, though this might mean you implicitly support some other questionable moral positions. One might take an extreme utilitarian approach, and argue that the fetus has negative utility and therefore abortion is not immoral (though it is possible to make a utilitarian argument against abortions).

Deadlocked02 · 2021-09-02T02:12:22+00:00

So what? Feminists don’t support this, big media outlets don’t support this, young people don’t support this. Must be nice having this kind of support. In the long scheme of things, this will not stand. And people can always abort before the sixth week or travel to other states, which is more options than men have currently (or that women in third world countries have).

remember that men currently are very limited in their parental rights in these situations too. This is a step backwards for everyone, not just women.

It’s not like much is going to change for men, really. If a woman wants to impose fatherhood on a man, she can still do it in any corner of the world.

TheDevilWillBurn · 2021-09-02T09:43:16+00:00

It is a man's issue because it's men who get women pregnant therefore an abortion will affect the metal and emotional state of a man. Sad, that l even had to write that and explain how abortion is also a man's issue. Sigh.

WhyDoYouBanMeImRight · 2021-09-03T04:28:30+00:00

how isnt it a mens issue? is the child not the product of a man and a woman together? does the father deserve no say in the childs potential life under normal circumstances (outside rape, incest etc)

theres really no good solution, but the fact of the matter is that labeling abortion a strictly female thing ignores the suffering it can cause men who lose their future children to their partner not telling them about the abortion.

again, no good solution, as the man cant take the baby into his own body and grow it, but it is still a loss felt by him.

BloomingBrains · 2021-09-02T07:39:04+00:00

Brain activity doesn't occur in a fetus until the third trimester, a point at which most abortions are performed prior (everywhere else but Texas in a little bit apparently, which is dumb), the exceptions being when the birth poses a great risk to the mother or both anyway. So for me there is no moral component, it is simply factually inaccurate to call it murder. You are aborting a collection of cells that happen to have human DNA but human DNA does not a person make.

Secondly, think about how many kids would flood this planet if we restricted abortion. We're already heavily overpopulated and it will probably be our biggest issue as a species going forward anyway.

And most of those kids will probably be born to parents that can't afford them or aren't ready to raise a child. What child deserves an environment like that?

And as you say people will do it anyway, so why not provide a safer method.

The only problem I can really find with it is that the woman could choose to abort a baby the dad wants to keep. But I still have to go with the woman's right to choose. It's her body. However, I think men should have the option of a "financial abortion": signing away his right to custody and being involved in the child's life but also bearing no responsibility. This would provide a way to opt out of parenthood for both sexes.

Riganthor · 2021-09-02T07:08:06+00:00

I dont think limiting is a good idea I Do think it should be go along with psychological help ( 1-2weeks of help) not just with the choice but also due to the consequences, you are going to need the shrink

Elsecaller_17-5 · 2021-09-02T15:48:02+00:00

So many thoughts happening right now. I'll start by giving some background. I am a deeply religious individual. I'm a premed student. I have a background in human anatomy and fetal development. My goal in life is to become a neonatologist and safe the lives of infants that some radicals on the extreme side of pro choice claim aren't even people.

First I have to main issues with your core argument, op. This is a men's issue because it is a human issue. It is a fundamentally moral issue. You cannot set aside morality. The fundamental question is when does a fetus become a person, or in other words when does abortion become murder.

And now to answer the question. When does a fetus become a person? I dont know. No one does. Lots of people claim to but they dont. Only God knows and I dont think he is going to announce it to the world anytime soon. Our next best tool is science.

So, scientifically, when is a fetus a person? I think its helpful to step back and look at am adult human. What makes them a person. I would argue, along with many in the biological community, that it is the cerebral cortex this is the seat of intelligence, personality, reasoning, higher brain function, and if you'll allow me to veer back into religion, I believe the human soul.

With this agreement the answer to when a fetus becomes a person is incredibly clear 10-12 weeks awhen the cerebral cortex begins to form.

If we as a society have to draw a line for when a person is a person, and we do, I propose 10 weeks. This is plenty of time to get an abortion if you want, 2 missed periods and some change, and we can be confident that it isn't murder. A happy medium in my opinion.

Now in my ideal world there would be no abortion because no one would want one, but that's not going to happen until the Lord returns. Until then, 10 weeks.

Title	It's not a men's issue, but we should have a discussion about abortion
Author	throwra_coolname209
Upvotes	123
Comments	106
Date	September 2, 2021 1:53 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/pg85yk/its_not_a_mens_issue_but_we_should_have_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/its-not-a-mens-issue-but-we-should-have-a.1066712 https://theredarchive.com/post/1066712