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“Men can’t be victims of domestic violence,” Amber Heard, 33, said in a career ending audio released by Johnny Depp via The Daily Mail. She continued, “tell the world Johnny, tell them… I Johnny Depp, a man, I’m a victim too of domestic violence… and see how many people believe or side with you.”

MaskofMen

February 6, 2020

193 upvotes

/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

https://www.sausageroll.com.au/entertainment/movies/amber-heard-exposed-in-new-audio-nobody-will-believe-a-white-male/

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Title	“Men can’t be victims of domestic violence,” Amber Heard, 33, said in a career ending audio released by Johnny Depp via The Daily Mail. She continued, “tell the world Johnny, tell them… I Johnny Depp, a man, I’m a victim too of domestic violence… and see how many people believe or side with you.”
Author	MaskofMen
Upvotes	193
Comments	102
Date	February 6, 2020 7:26 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ezxgmi/men_cant_be_victims_of_domestic_violence_amber/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/men-cant-be-victims-of-domestic-violence-amber.1064051 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064051

Comments

[–]omegaphallic 36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 60 points61 points62 points 4 years ago (76 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kuato2012left-wing male advocate 63 points64 points65 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Cyb3rd31ic_Citiz3n 32 points33 points34 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]WynneOS 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]myalias1 21 points22 points23 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]webernicke 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bkrugby78 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

To be fair, they did have one thread sorta dedicated to the issue and others like it. There's some decent takes there mixed with some worse takes.

Hilariously (or tragically), someone reported that thread as "reactionary" and /u/BreShark gave a very mealy-mouthed response:

Someone reported this thread for being "reactionary" or something of that nature.

Look. Admittedly, it's not the most fleshed out post in the world and it would have been preferable if it were more detailed with maybe some statistics or article references instead of using two (at least) semi-high profile cases to build whatever point it is they are trying to make concerning a super sensitive issue such as this.

Sometimes we drop the ball; sometimes the posts in here aren't that great or well thought out; sometimes us mods aren't around to clean things up until after the fact (it was Super Bowl Sunday when this was submitted and the UK mods were on their way to bed).

We normally would have asked for a better crafted submission rather than borderline outrage but we kind of reached the point of no return with this one and it got traction before any of us were around to properly respond to it. So, what's done is done, I guess.

Anyway, as a reminder, we ask all of you to remain civil in the comments.

If you want to ask questions or complain, do it in modmail like always.

EDIT: One more thing, this is not a queue for you guys to make a bajillion seperate threads about Johnny Deep/Amber Heard. We had that same problem with Aziz Ansari around two years ago; we don't want the front page of the sub to be inundated with multiple conversations on the same event.

So essentially: "yeah I know it's a shitty thread that shouldn't be here, but it got very popular and the mods weren't around to properly censor it, and it would just look extremely bad if we deleted it now, so we just threw our hands up, behave yourselves y'all, also consider this the Depp/Heard containment zone cuz we're yeeting all the other shit"

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]thereslcjg2000left-wing male advocate 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Cyb3rd31ic_Citiz3n 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bkrugby78 10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]InitiatePenguin 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

We discussed it in our slack, I said we should be proactive. And as another user pointed out there was a post earlier this week. Idk anyone is particularly content with how it went down. I advocated for the original post to stay because it was clearly important to a lot of people. Unfortunately it didn't have the Handson attention it requires nor a particularly great framing.

I think it's fair that we are often drama-averse, we get a lot of it even when there isn't a big media splash like this one.

We ask to for positive discussion that's solution oriented. This largely is not generating that.

As another user here said we should "want our user base to be riled up by the injustice".

I disagree, this is exactly what we mean by outrage porn.

But that doesn't mean the topic itself is off limits. It just means to get it right you'll have to thread a needle. The thread that was posted came from Drama where they used a joke to engage with the content. That is not what we're about.

MensLib understands men can be victims.

MensLib understands that often people push aside men who have said they have been victims of abuse.

This case is tough because (and particularly before the tapes) it was a complete he said/she said situation. And you have to make sure you leave room for victims of both genders to feel safe coming forward - but what's happening in large parts elsehwere in Reddit where this discussion is happening is a rejection of Me-Too instead of an affirmation of Men-too.

I'm willing to conceede I could have done better on this, particularly when what I discussed in my own group didn't make its way into the subreddit. Superbowl/State-of-the-Union/Iowa definitely took up a lot more of my time.

But people read way to far into not allowing this particular post.

[–]SchalaZeal01 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]serpentineeyelash 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

I can understand the part about you not getting around to it. I can be pretty disorganized myself and haven't yet posted my own thoughts on the Amber Heard case, as I need to research it more. The Iowa thing has taken up a lot of my attention too and I'm not even American. (Also I've just remembered I haven't yet got around to fully investigating some complaints you made to LWMA, so I apologize for that.)

However, I totally disagree with your ideological reasons for why you and/or other MensLib moderators censored article(s) about Amber Heard for several days.

We ask to for positive discussion that's solution oriented. This largely is not generating that.

I just read your Depp/Heard post. I can't see any solution-focused discussion in it.

You even seem to insinuate that the Daily Mail should not be reporting on what is happening in the case. Do you also believe the media should not write similar outrage porn articles about allegations of a man being violent toward a woman? Did you also oppose all the earlier articles portraying Depp as the abuser?

As another user here said we should "want our user base to be riled up by the injustice".

I disagree, this is exactly what we mean by outrage porn.

What is wrong with being riled up by injustice? Anger helps motivate people to become more politically active on the issues they are angry about.

When your subreddit tries to nip this process in the bud, it is one of the reasons why people do not believe you are genuine in your mission to address male issues. You often seem more interested in shielding feminist ideology from criticism.

Every other movement is allowed to get riled up by injustices, real or perceived. Feminist spaces are full of anger and outrage porn about women's issues. Are you against anger within feminism too? Or is it only men's movements who must remain calm and polite at all times to be taken seriously?

This case is tough because (and particularly before the tapes) it was a complete he said/she said situation.

Somehow that didn't stop the feminist movement taking Amber Heard's side. It didn't stop campaigns to get Depp fired from his acting roles. It didn't stop Heard getting appointed as a domestic violence ambassador. It doesn't stop feminists taking the woman's side in other situations of he said/she said. But the moment the balance of evidence tips toward the woman being the main aggressor, suddenly you say we can't be sure of anything.

And in my personal opinion, the tapes do make it pretty clear that Amber Heard is the abuser.

In the first tape, Amber admits she's the one who starts the physical fights, admits to throwing pots and pans and vases and cans, and admits to hitting him but downplays it and calls him a "baby" for complaining. Yet she claims he's somehow the bad guy for removing himself from the situation when she starts an argument. Apparently the trigger for Amber starting fights is that whenever Johnny left her sight for too many hours she feared he was about to leave the relationship. Most tellingly, the entire discussion is totally at odds with the picture Amber later painted of Johnny as a violent "monster". The tape's only mentions of any violence by Johnny are his admissions that he occasionally retaliated by trying to push her away, blocking the door to a room, and once throwing something back at her.

The second tape is less clearcut, I admit. But what strikes me is how Amber says nobody will believe she started it because she's not as physically strong as Johnny. This sounds a lot like she's bragging about how she can get away with violence because she's a woman.

And you have to make sure you leave room for victims of both genders to feel safe coming forward - but what's happening in large parts elsehwere in Reddit where this discussion is happening is a rejection of Me-Too instead of an affirmation of Men-too.

The two are related.

Making a false accusation of abuse is itself a form of abuse which is much easier for a woman to do to a man than vice versa. The same goes for making a false accusation of one-way abuse when it's actually two-way; abusing the legal process to victimize someone; abusing the feminist movement's stereotype that men are aggressors and women are victims; intimidating someone by threatening to make a false accusation of abuse; and so on.

When you downplay all these issues, you are harming a large subcategory of men who are abused by women. All these forms of abuse can be combined with physical violence by the woman against the man. And all these types of female-on-male abuse are blatantly enabled by MeToo-style feminism.

These are all very good reasons to reject MeToo, a movement claiming we should always believe the woman. The top comment in your MensLib thread admits MeToo is a powerful institution that can be abused. If you still think MeToo is such a wonderful movement worth preserving, then what is your positive solution on how to separate its good aspects from the ways in which it can and has been abused?

My solution is that people should stop reflexively taking the woman's side just because feminist ideology says so. Instead we should treat men and women as equally likely to be aggressors or victims, and everyone should be considered innocent until proven guilty.

[–]InitiatePenguin -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

I totally disagree with your ideological reasons for why you and/or other MensLib moderators censored article(s) about Amber Heard for several days.

We removed one because it was submitted by Drama and received 300+ upvotes without going live, then the link was shared here. The link at the top of this post came from Drama. Beyond that, and after the first post a few days before there have been zero submissions regarding Depp/Heard.

Do you also believe the media should not write similar outrage porn articles about allegations of a man being violent toward a woman? Did you also oppose all the earlier articles portraying Depp as the abuser?

Yes

Feminist spaces are full of anger and outrage porn about women's issues.

That's their choice how to run their communities

But the moment the balance of evidence tips toward the woman being the main aggressor, suddenly you say we can't be sure of anything.

You're conflating what I've said with what other people have said.

If you still think MeToo is such a wonderful movement worth preserving, then what is your positive solution on how to separate its good aspects from the ways in which it can and has been abused?

Take victims seriously. Be careful to jump to conclusions.

[–]serpentineeyelash 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry if I conflated your views with those of others. Perhaps we have different perceptions of what MeToo means.

Take victims seriously. Be careful to jump to conclusions.

The first part is a bit vague so I'm not sure what it means in practice.

Obviously I agree with the second part. However, it strikes me as the opposite of how MeToo and similar campaigns usually behave. These campaigns, including the one against Johnny Depp, sought to get men fired from their jobs over accusations without any due process and in at least some cases without any evidence.

(The fact that there is now a similar campaign to get Amber Heard fired seems only fair at this point, though. As long as that's the standard for men, then women should be treated the same way.)

(EDIT: Actually you know what, maybe getting Amber Heard fired isn't the most constructive solution. Maybe a better petition would be for Amber Heard to get some mental health treatment, if she was being honest when she said she got violent because she couldn't control her emotions when she feared Johnny was leaving her. She sounds like a classic case of Borderline Personality Disorder.)

[–]InitiatePenguin -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I've talked about metoo before in this sub so you can just search for that. People need to realize that Men'slib stance is not radical feminism, and despite much of our userbase identify as feminist the fact they are there talking about men's issues should be a pretty clear indication of the difference of thought.

Taking victims seriously would be to listen, beleive them, to look at what evidence might exist and potentially reserve judgement. You don't have to beleive them, but maybe don't work against them, say that it's "credible" and move on.

It's difficult in a he said/she said situation where this started and that's why the history of MeToo got in the way because it was manipulated. It's often difficult to discern who the victim might actually be in what was ultimately a private affair with typically no evidence.

The evidence in this case is changing that. But a few tapes out of 80 that are ending up in the press for whatever reason is being chosen by someone. As I pointed out it's clear Amber is rationalizing abhorrent behavior just like her distinctions between punching and hitting. What also seems true is that Depp would contribute. Whether it's completely reactionary or defensive or what is yet to be seen.

I don't want to say it's all mutual because the sitting evidence makes that a hard sell. I don't want to say the Depp is blameless because he admits to retaliation and some of the stories Heard said haven't been debunked (nor confirmed).

They settled their original divorce case and now everything's blown up in everyone's face. Given what's already happened I'm willing to withold judgment a little longer. People might think that's not fair, but getting it wrong twice doesn't help.

What I could do for my community is say in explicit terms that men can be victims.

If one of Feminisms biggest mistake was advocating women on top of everything else regardless of context then I don't want to make the same mistake by rejecting MeToo because some men were wronged by it. While I'm sure we disagree about how large this "large sub-catagory of men" are, when it comes to suggesting this is a disservice of male victims you're advocating for the same gendered approach to advocacy that means stepping on the other's neck to get ahead.

If embracing me-too is a disservice to men then rejecting it is a disservice to women. Because there have been countless women who didn't have a voice until people started listening.

I demand better. And I will find a path forward that considers them both.

[–]serpentineeyelash 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I am aware and have previously acknowledged that there is a difference between MensLib and radical feminism.

Taking victims seriously would be to listen, beleive them, to look at what evidence might exist and potentially reserve judgement.

Obviously no rational person would disagree with listening, looking at any evidence, and potentially reserving judgement. It's the part about believing the accuser that I object to. Belief should be based on evidence, not the existence of an accusation or the gender of the accuser.

You don't have to beleive them

You just contradicted yourself by saying "beleive them" then "you don't have to believe them".

but maybe don't work against them, say that it's "credible" and move on.

I think this depends on context. The idea of "don't work against" accusers is surely one of the reasons Amber Heard has gotten away with it so long - why the evidence against her has not been listened to. (Before the tapes there was already other evidence on Depp's side, which I'm still in the process of researching.)

It's often difficult to discern who the victim might actually be in what was ultimately a private affair with typically no evidence.

I agree! Which is exactly why I oppose the tendency within feminism to explicitly or implicitly assume that a female accuser must be telling the truth, and try to silence anyone who questions that.

What also seems true is that Depp would contribute. Whether it's completely reactionary or defensive or what is yet to be seen...

I don't want to say the Depp is blameless because he admits to retaliation

The "retaliation" he admits to in the tape sounds pretty minor, and like she is blowing it out of proportion. Of course, I could be wrong.

some of the stories Heard said haven't been debunked (nor confirmed).

The 2015 audiotape was recorded years after the alleged beginning of Depp's violence. Yet in their lengthy quarrel Heard doesn't bring up any examples except for the aforementioned retaliation. The main thing she seemed concerned about was him leaving the room when they started fighting. Overall, Heard totally dominates their recorded conversations, to a degree that makes it difficult to believe she is afraid Depp might get violent.

Given what's already happened I'm willing to withold judgment a little longer. People might think that's not fair, but getting it wrong twice doesn't help.

I think it's a little late for withholding judgement. When Amber Heard's side have already exercised their judgement to use the court of public opinion against Johnny Depp, he deserves a defence in the same court of public opinion.

And, like it or not, this is a broader problem with the MeToo movement. They're very happy for the court of public opinion to hear the case for the prosecution, but try to prevent the court of public opinion from hearing any case for the defence. (And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be agreeing with that when you say "don't work against" the accuser.) However you spin it, that is not a just system.

(Just a minor correction: I was referring to a large subcategory within the category "men who are abused by women", rather than necessarily within the category "men".)

While I'm sure we disagree about how large this "large sub-catagory of men" are

Indeed. I know MensLib has promoted statistics claiming to prove false rape accusations are rare and censored any criticism of those statistics. The reality is that we cannot know what percentage of abuse accusations are true or false.

If embracing me-too is a disservice to men then rejecting it is a disservice to women. Because there have been countless women who didn't have a voice until people started listening.

I demand better. And I will find a path forward that considers them both.

I don't think there ever really can be a perfect justice system - unless you're proposing to institute a perfect surveillance system to provide perfect evidence. I think the best we can do is treat all people as equally trustworthy and follow the evidence.

EDIT: Another way to increase the available amount of evidence is "Always Be Recording". This is a piece of advice given to men in abusive relationships and there's no reason why women in abusive relationships can't do the same.

[–]InitiatePenguin 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Overall, Heard totally dominates their recorded conversations,

A couple out of 80 tapes that were surely picked for a reason.

When Amber Heard's side have already exercised their judgement to use the court of public opinion against Johnny Depp, he deserves a defence in the same court of public opinion.

Except I never did exercise judgment and and still won't. I do believe that those who currently seems to have gotten it wrong should be back in the conversation. If beleiving is based in evidence the current circumstances don't allow me to make a conclusion I'm comfortable with.

Right now the credibility of Amber is called into question. Depp still has the credibility afaik.

I don't think there ever really can be a perfect justice system

No, but as I said I can simultaneously consider victims of both genders with my advocacy. And MeToo is part of that, although it is not the justice system, nor that it is exclusively for women.

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[–]C0dey1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I say a group of us should just spam the sub with this to get the point across. Seriously, this is the type of thing the promalecollective should be on top of.

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JusticeForJohnnyDepp