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MensRights has done the right thing and taken a stance against MGTOW and incel related topics, as well as condemned violent content.

August 14, 2021
Crosspost "It shouldn't have to be said, but violence is NOT an acceptable answer." from /r/MensRights:

As a gender based subreddit, we are very controversial. That means this subreddit draws a wide variety of individuals and we have ZERO control over who visits this subreddit. We (the mods) have a set of rules that we attempt to follow to the best of our ability, and one of the ones that we enforce with extreme prejudice is advocating for illegal acts. Instant ban, and highly unlikely to ever get unbanned.

Violence is just such an act. We, the mods, do not condone violence, and we do not allow our users to advocate for such things in any form.

Without knowing who each user is, what their mindset is, what their situation is, we cannot pre-emptively know when a deranged individual participates in this subreddit. We follow our rules, and that is all that we can do.

There have been a few cases in the past where someone has crossed over a line from just advocating for an illegal action to actually threatening one. In such cases, we report this to the admins (reddit employees), who then are able to take action. We do not have the power or capability to investigate who the individual is or report them to authorities.

Sometimes we miss things because we are a small team and this is an active subreddit. If we miss something, users are encouraged to report it. The presence of something that violates our rules but has not yet been removed does NOT imply that we approve of what was said. Thus, with our hands tied behind our backs, we, the moderators of this subreddit, CANNOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT IS SAID ON THIS SUBREDDIT!

MGTOW and Incel cultures are very problematic right now, as they are attracting a higher-than-normal fraction of radicalized people and the discourse can be radicalizing due to the RADICAL NATURE of the concepts. That doesn't mean everyone involved is radicalized, or problematic, or bad people. It simply means that there is a higher-than-normal/average proportion of people with extremist views involved.

MGTOW and Incel issues are NOT specifically men's rights issues. People do NOT have a right to sex, and they DO have a right to treat their personal lives however they see fit. So long as no laws are broken, if a person wants to go their own way, or only hook up and never be in a committed relationship, or have WHATEVER other view of relationships they want, that is up to them. They already have that right. As a result, MGTOW and Incel issues are NOT relevant to this subreddit and are removed for being off-topic. If you want to talk about these things, find another place to do so.

Posted by mensmod | 14 August 2021 | Link

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Post Information
Title MensRights has done the right thing and taken a stance against MGTOW and incel related topics, as well as condemned violent content.
Author 2717192619192
Upvotes 51
Comments 28
Date August 14, 2021 9:53 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/mensrights-has-done-the-right-thing-and-taken-a.1060655
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/p4gy1n/mensrights_has_done_the_right_thing_and_taken_a/
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Top posts by 2717192619192

[–]2717192619192left-wing male advocate[S,M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

As a moderator of LWMA, I would also encourage you guys to realize that we stand by similar principles. We absolutely clamp down not just on violent or threatening posts/comments, but we also strictly enforce our rules about civility towards others as well as not generalizing any group of people (including men or women).

LeftWingMaleAdvocates was birthed as a subcommunity of MensRights users, and we are more similar than we are different much of the time. It makes me happy to see them taking a stance against MGTOW and incel content as being off-topic for their sub; the same can be said for us.

[–]Deadlocked02 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I never participated of MGTOW and incel communities, nor do I identify with these terms, but overall I’m not a fan of all this. In practice, it feels like mods are giving in to reddit’s censorship. It is already happening in other subs as well, like Kotaku in Action. When it happened here after the MGTOW ban, I wasn’t a fan either, but I thought that maybe it wasn’t my place to say anything, as ultimately I was not the one who spent hours and hours producing content and dedicating to elevate the sub. I understand that the mods just want to protect what they have built. It’s natural to feel protective of something you dedicated so much time to. And while I do think it’s a good thing to have a clear distinction between men’s rights, MGTOWs and incels, I can’t help but feel that the current climate fosters stigmatization and censorship, which aren’t really helpful. And it doesn’t help that this all a one-sided effort. Meanwhile, other subs have carte blanche to spread misandrist content. And it doesn’t look like things will get better anytime soon, specially when the ideologies of some of these subs are making their way to big media outlets in a positive light instead of receiving the same treatment that similar ideologies for men do. These double standards are also a huge part of the problem. And then there’s the uncertainty. Are objections such as this one still allowed? Will this be perceived as endorsing misogyny? I have no idea.

[–]Mustbeaight 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately objections like yours are seen as endorsing misogyny, mass shootings, alt right .. and every other thing

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Removed as bad-faith apologia for misogynist communities.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Removed as bad-faith apologia for misogynist communities.

[–]Mustbeaight 10 points11 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Lol that post is an attempt at not getting banned . Ofcourse the Reddit wokesters that run this platform will blame every single straight male oriented subreddit (excluding menslib as it is female and feminist oriented) when a shooting occurs. He’s just trying to save face. It’s one thing saying violence is not justified. Which everyone agrees with. But it’s another claiming incels or mgtow have nothing to do with men’s issues . Even equating the two is wildly inaccurate.

Bruv is just trying to keep his sub afloat. Which is totally pointless as the woke mob will still see the sub in the same light and will still find a reason to ban it. I don’t know if you guys realize but every male oriented sub catered to men are put in the same box "alt right white supremacy incel and potentially violent misogynists who are an active threat to women" it doesn’t matter if you make an attempt to separate from mgtow of incels. The people deciding the fate of your sub dont see any difference. They will find a reason to ban . In 10 years this platform will be entirely free of any non feminist male oriented spaces

[–]LacklustreFriend 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But it’s another claiming incels or mgtow have nothing to do with men’s issues .

It comes down entirely to how you define "having nothing/something to do with" or "associated with". I personally hate the term "manosphere" as it conflates many different groups with vastly different philosophies, and simply adds to misinformation and miscommunication (perhaps deliberately on some people's part). An analogy I've made in the past is describing a 'femosphere', where you lump both Andrea Dworkin and Phyllis Schlafly into the same 'femosphere' on the basis they are both concerned with the rights of women, even though they have completely opposing ideologies. While this is an extreme example, this holds true for many of the men's groups.

[–]OkLieThen 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They will find a reason to ban

What makes you think they find a reason and not just do it?

In 10 years this platform will be entirely free of any non feminist male oriented spaces

Likely sooner than that. There's already only a hanful of subs like this at best. I do wonder what will happen with /r/AskMen as its the biggest non feminists pro male spaces around.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Removed as bad-faith apologia for misogynist communities.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was looking at the mod list on men's rights the other day and the highest ranking mod (with a name that's not rMensRights) posts on left leaning subs like r/Democrats and places like that.

I don't disagree that there are tradcons who make that sub their home and that they can be kind of loud sometimes. But polls show about an even distribution of left / right / center posters and even the mods seem to lean, if anything, towards to left.

I really wish we could get past this purity contest and realize that men's rights makes perfect sense from a leftist perspective anyway.

[–][deleted]  (14 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 12 points13 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It seems to me to be a major mistake to exclude discussion of some major issues that effect men.

We do not exclude discussion of any issues that affect men. We exclude expressions of bigotry and association with communities where bigotry is rife.

This place is meant to be compassionate towards disadvantaged men

We are. But that does not mean we tolerate misogyny or other forms of bigotry.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you want to go and defend the misogyny of those communities, then please move along. It's the reason why we have distanced ourselves from them, and the reason that got them quarantined and eventually banned.


[–]Stephen_Morgan 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There has been no misogyny in this thread, and I have never defended misogyny. Misogyny has only even been mentioned because the original rationalisation for his performative denunciation of other male focused communities - the idea that they are inherently violent - was so ridiculous.

I have no first hand knowledge of the incel or MGTOW communities, whether on reddit or elsewhere, I just don't like to see the spread of hatred and demonisation. It's just like how I see people in other communities talk about here and /r/mensrights

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Many of us have witnessed the misogyny on those subs first-hand. So if you continue to defend them, you are defending communities where misogyny was widespread.

[–]blueleaf78 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think it's important to make a distinction between the issues and the communities.

Men who don't want to get married or seriously involved with women are not the same thing as the MGTOW community. Same with Incels: the Incel community isn't the same thing as men who can't find a relationship and have self-esteem issues.

I think there's a parallel to feminism: the feminism movement is rife with sexism and radicals, but there are those who insist that "feminism just means being for gender equality".

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this.

[–]2717192619192left-wing male advocate[S,M] 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It seems to me to be a major mistake to exclude discussion of some major issues that effect men. The idea that MGTOW and Incel issues aren't mens issues is ridiculous.

Then let me clarify — discussing what makes marriage untenable for many men nowadays due to a misandrist and gynocentric society? That’s talking about MGTOW-related men’s issues. But that’s different from allowing the subreddit to become a place where MGTOW types can gather and discuss actually “going their own way”.

The claim that either of those ideologies is about entitlement to sex is a hateful idea, and primarily a feminist talking point. The connection being made between Incel/MGTOW and threatening violent criminal acts is without foundation.

Incel ideology is sometimes connected to violence and threatening criminal acts. It definitely isn’t always, and we should have compassion for them, but that doesn’t mean we can allow incels to post incel-related content here. Nor should we.

This is the sort of stigmatising nonsense I'd expect to see on MensLib, not here. This place is meant to be compassionate towards disadvantaged men, it's not meant to be a place where people choose groups of men they hold in contempt and demonise them.

We don’t hold contempt towards incels or those who choose to “go their own way”. We talk about the immense societal reasons that men are forced into those unfortunate positions - we do discuss hypergamy, we do discuss gynocentrism, we do discuss how dating and marriage is slanted against men. However that doesn’t mean we can allow MGTOW and incel content here. Stop strawmanning.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think it can be a hard line to see at first glance.

Your response is very clear though.

I'm obviously not a mod so, idk, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'd say it's ok to talk about social issues that lead to inceldom and MGTOW, but not so much to advocate actually going your own way or to give up on finding love (or whatever it is that black pill incels do).

Saying it's difficult to find a girlfriend, even venting a little, within reason, might be ok (though that's more suited for like r/mensupportmen). We won't be upset at someone who's a little frustrated for being lonely. That's a general human experience that's not specific to those communities.

Even voicing your fears over marriage because of how the court system works should probably be ok.

But there are like talking points and things that get said a lot in those spaces that we don't want to see here.

I had actually written out some rhetoric that I believe to be semi accurate to what some of those people believe, but... I don't feel like it needs repeated here, even in a constructive context. We know it when we see it. And even if you claim to not know any better, the rhetoric is problematic because it's hateful and misogynistic (and sometimes even misandrist). We're not even really picking on those communities. We're picking on the misogyny in those communities.

[–]Deadlocked02 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

but not so much to advocate actually going your own way or to give up on finding love

But what does “advocacy” entail? Would a man talking about his reasons to give up pursing a romantic life be considered advocacy? That’s my problem with these things. It’s hard to draw a line.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If your rationale is that the problem is women or even "western women" and not that it made sense to you in your own life, that's probably more where the issue is.

Even if you want to talk about things like nagging and what's fair in a relationship, I think there is positive advice we can offer.

Warren Farrell made part of his career around acknowledging that nagging and other "female behaviors" in relationships are problematic without throwing in the towel and saying that women are terrible people and that men should never get involved with them.

I've had lots of discussions around these topics in the past that I think have been helpful, but that a MGTOW would have probably said was pointless because "women are like that". I have advice along the lines of standing up for yourself, recognizing what you contribute, communicating what you contribute, etc (I think a lot of men buy into "cooking and cleaning" being where the chores start and stop -- when you probably do a lot more than that).

I still think society encourages those behaviors from women in relationships, and I think men ought to stand up and say that's not ok. But saying women aren't worth it doesn't seem like the best way to go about building bridges and finding common ground.

Especially when men aren't perfect, either.

Now if you personally have had enough and don't want to do it anymore, then fine. I mean isn't that what MGTOW was kind of supposed to be in the beginning anyway? An individual thing, instead of a collective middle finger to women?

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

but not so much to advocate actually going your own way or to give up on finding love

Even that is fine, as long as it is not mixed up with unfair generalizations about women, and as long as it is a personal decision and not recommended as a blanket solution to all men. We are individuals with our individual struggles, leading to a variety of ways of dealing with issues.

[–]2717192619192left-wing male advocate[S,M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are totally spot on, you said it better than I could.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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