People really don’t know how to handle toxic masculinity

a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-12T23:37:51+00:00

'Toxic Masculinity' as a term, is toxic. So we'd rather avoid the term altogether.

MelissaMiranti · 2022-03-12T23:26:11+00:00

In the most benevolent definition of "toxic masculinity" it's used to describe the negative aspects that gender roles place on men. How then are feminists not incredibly guilty of taking part in these pressures by making it men's job to fix everything bad in the world? He For She? Male Ego and Male Fragility? Why is the burden on men?

Because feminism loves the traditional gender role for men, and only for men.

Jonathanese · 2022-03-13T04:50:23+00:00

This is a very big thing about the whole "man up" mentality. I can only recall one or two cases where men have told me to "man up". Though the dating advice circles like PUAs can be really toxic about this with the "alpha male" ideology. But I can recall many more cases coming from women, and the most coming from feminists.

It usually isn't "man up". It is usually dismissal of an insecurity as illegitimate and being reduced to "male fragility" or "he's just insecure in his masculinity."

But like, when women are insecure in their femininity, we impose restrictions on photoshopped billboards, ban underweight models, and encourage more plus-sized models. That is, these insecurities are legitimate and need to be addressed.

But many who claim that toxic masculinity comes from men telling each other to "man up" often do as much to enforce it.

One of my insecurities is that I fear I am evil or will do evil. Main response I get is "then maybe men shouldn't be evil."

One example I have for highlighting the issue is this:

A black person and a white person are approaching each other on the sidewalk. The white person crosses the street for fear of being attacked. What can you say about this?

Social justice groups will be quick to say the white person was racist for crossing the street based on a racist assumption, and makes black people feel like everyone views them dangerously, which is either a source of emotional issues, or even a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now, I tell you that it was a black man and a white woman. Now, a woman crosses the street to avoid being attacked by a man. Now what are their thoughts. Usually the narrative has completely flipped.

Now the man is sexist for not crossing the street so she could feel more comfortable. Men as a whole are responsible for her feeling unsafe. He doesn't get to be bothered by this because by being a man, he is contributing to it. He doesn't get to have insecurities about people viewing him as evil. He isn't allowed for this to affect him. It is deserved.

Asmodeusthelame · 2022-03-13T00:20:28+00:00

Harmful Gender Norms is the better term. Toxic masculinity implies a moral value on masculinity itself. I understand the term wasn't intended to do that, but I feel the phrase toxic masculinity has done more harm to discourse than help.

I actually am working on a podcast about mens mental health. Idk the rules of this subreddit in regards to promoting podcasts, so I will look into that.

TheLWMA · 2022-03-13T02:39:26+00:00

Let me pull out my classic go-to argument for this topic:

What is toxic masculinity?

What is traditional masculinity? How does it differ from toxic masculinity?

What is positive masculinity?

gabrielcoronel_ · 2022-03-13T00:33:38+00:00

Toxic masculinity very much exists, as does misandry. Just wanted to get it out there that I believe that before going in.

Please define toxic masculinity, we've heard that term so many times, in so many different contexts, that it's hard to know what you're referring to.

The men in question feel insecure because they've been socialized with the idea that they must be the ones who provide. They see the fact that their female partners earn more, as a failure, because, in their eyes, the weren't able to fullfil their roles.

So, I totally agree with you on this part. If these so-called progressive people want men to adopt a positive masculinity, they should tell men how. Instead, they mock men for having a fragile masculinity, which is without a doubt counterproductive.

TintelFroot · 2022-03-13T00:04:00+00:00

Just call it “internalized misandry” ffs.

ivanoud · 2022-03-13T01:48:35+00:00

Let's talk about toxic femininity, which is more accurate for this post, since you think toxic masculinity exists.

BloomingBrains · 2022-03-13T08:32:57+00:00

Wait a minute, why does it even have to be about the man being insecure anyway? It seems more likely to me that the problem is on the women's side: they're less attracted to the man if he makes less money regardless of whether he is actually insecure about it or not. Feminists constantly use supposed male insecurity as a smokescreen for their own acceptance of the same gender conformities they claim to fight. Personally, I wouldn't care if my wife/girlfriend made more money than me, that's regressive macho drivel. No insecurity here. So why do they apparently care so much?

You won't find much acceptance of toxic masculinity here, even though mocking macho idiots who call themselves "alphas" and whatnot will get you upvotes. People just have a fixation on the word itself, even though they accept there are different kinds of meanings for other "misandrist words" like incel or beta. I can call myself an incel as much as I want and its apparently fine because its taken for granted I mean it in the sense of literal involuntary celibacy, and not the subculture. But the same cannot be said for the separation of real toxic masculinity from what feminists claim it is.

Show_Me_Them_Kitties · 2022-03-13T00:16:20+00:00

Who decides what makes some behavior toxic and what makes it non-toxic? There's an immense power in deciding that because it means you makes what is proper behavior and what isn't. Really when people talk about toxic masculinity they're engaged in a debate about what proper gender roles for men should be.

Mr-X1 · 2022-03-13T10:09:54+00:00

My point is, no one ever tells men that they’re valid or that these things aren’t important. Including the people who supposedly want to “take on toxic masculinity”.

Because those people do not believe that men are "valid" per se or that such things are not important.

I just saw a statistic about how women are twice as likely to fake orgasm if they make more money than their male partners. The angle I’m taking on this topic is that the male partners are more insecure and that makes them less attractive to the women

Which is bullshit. Them having less money makes them less attractive to many women automatically, and those women fake their attraction for evolved strategic reasons.

Interesting_Doubt_17 · 2022-03-12T23:36:56+00:00

It is irony at its finest

reverbiscrap · 2022-03-13T15:33:46+00:00

Toxic Masculinity as a term is a nonsense phrase created black feminist academicians specifically to demonize black men and cast them in the same vein as white males in the Patriarchy Theory structure.

It is the bastardized version of Hegemonic Masculinity created to serve idpol first and foremost, not an observation of reality.

funnystor · 2022-03-13T00:51:24+00:00

women are twice as likely to fake orgasm if they make more money than their male partners

That's literally Toxic Femininity. Why would the women feel like they need to fake orgasms? Because of toxic female gender roles, AKA Toxic Femininity.

Mirisme · 2022-03-13T01:56:25+00:00

As we're in a leftist sub, I'd like to propose a useful critique of toxic masculinity. My main point of contention with the word is that it's needlessly ambiguous and more importantly it masks the actually important notion of hegemonic masculinity. Toxic masculinity can only be understood in the hegemonic masculinity framework lest it becomes nonsensical.

Hegemonic masculinity is "masculinity of the dominant class". Now if we're talking equality, there's a lot of idea sold as masculine that are contradictory with equality. The obvious ones are competition and violence. Men are supposed to be competitive and produce physical violence (strength being merely a proxy for physical violence).

What I find lacking in feminist theory is an actual solution to this issue. Men won't stop being competitive if our society rely on competition to function. Men won't stop producing violence if our society expects violence to be produced. In a sense women could adopt those traits but that just means removing the specific ways in which the hegemonic norms of our society appears in men and allowing everyone to engage in those hegemonic norms (insert here the girlboss).

Removing the hegemonist qualities of society will require a much larger framework than a gender-based one and I doubt that it's even possible to achieve equality only in gender and not in other ways. If you're interested in playing the hegemonic game, then all is good to climb that ladder, discriminating based on gender or not is just a tactical choice. I'd wager that a lot of people are interested in having a step up their fellow human. I know I am when I want to be right.

Title	People really don’t know how to handle toxic masculinity
Author	Lordkeravrium
Upvotes	0
Comments	35
Date	March 12, 2022 9:14 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/people-really-dont-know-how-to-handle-toxic.1106566 https://theredarchive.com/post/1106566
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/tcr15p/people_really_dont_know_how_to_handle_toxic/