TERFs only hate trans women because they hate men.

Dern_Zambies · 2021-10-29T00:17:21+00:00

While not the only reason it's very telling in the way transphobes deride trans men as "our brainwashed daughters" while trans women are described as perverts and predators. Misogyny and misandry help inform the different flavors of transphobia.

edit: meant to reply to another comment, edited so it'd make sense independently

JustSomeGuy2008 · 2021-10-29T02:07:02+00:00

Agreed completely. Take a look over at TumblrInAction. The general consensus there used to be a lot more of "I'll respect a transgender person's identity if they are a respectful person, but my personal feelings are that a person can't change their gender, and I take issue with the extreme ways many people in the realm of transgender activism go about their business". But once a bunch of feminists got in there, the subreddit has been non-stop transgender posts, and the comments of each is nothing but outright hatred of transgender people in general. Not to mention that they ignore that transgender men exist, as they fixate solely on transgender women, accusing the entire movement of being misogynistic men trying to oppress women in a new way.

It's really troubling.

MelissaMiranti · 2021-10-28T21:34:03+00:00

I wouldn't say "only" but that is definitely a component.

AdamChap · 2021-10-28T21:56:35+00:00

I think many TERFs are like this, true. Not all. They don't care about trans men invading male spaces just trans women invading theirs. Of course because they've created these gynocentric safe spaces that really benefit them they do not want men to get a piece of that action at all!

Some TERFs however are more akin to the tradition feminists of the past, of course it's a shame many of them see the benefit and value of female only spaces but never for male-only spaces - and have nothing to say about decades of dismantling male-only spaces.

Grow_peace_in_Bedlam · 2021-10-28T22:16:36+00:00

I agree. I made a post months ago saying that the difference between TERFs and regular radical feminists is that TERFs have decided that both transwomen and cismen are acceptable targets of misandry, but neither group thinks misandry in itself is wrong. You don't see the term MERF because, as far as I can tell, it is largely the default and therefore would be redundant.

It's like the white Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans at the beginning of the twentieth century who would argue whether Italian immigrants were white, rather than whether racism was wrong in the first place.

denithelunar · 2021-10-29T07:18:34+00:00

I believe most of the transphobia is caused by misandry rather than the concept of patriarchy, but from what I've seen is most of the terfs hate trans women way more than they hate men.
When I identified as a feminist the feminist page I followed shared an article with the theme "trans women say they aren't dangerous but we collected 10 trans criminals to you!"(also this was a russian page and none of the trans women listed there was russian). This isn't much different than nazis using the Fritz Haarmann(a gay serial killer in Weimar Republic) case to punish gay men, but its acceptable now because they are women, just like the nazis were German.

Also upper class women punishing lower class women to "protect their daughters" isn't unusual in history.(Ex: all accussers and most of the investigators in Salem Witch Trials being women)

Quizzmo · 2021-10-29T08:35:43+00:00

I would say the actually hate trans women more, because they view them as predatory men who want to pretend to be women to have an oportunity to be predatory. I generally see more hate torwards trans women, and it's usually for this reason. So actually I would say they hate trans women because they hate men I guess

TheLWMA · 2021-10-28T22:51:51+00:00

You're not necessarily wrong, OP. However, this is a very complicated topic that you're oversimplifying.

manbro7 · 2021-10-28T23:03:37+00:00

True. The most recent incident is Kathleen Stock on twitter. She is a radfem terf that's getting overwhelming support and being defended despite being a radfem anti-male TERF. Everyone ignores misandry.

She said transwomen would perv out in women' bathrooms (because they were men) but said zero demonizing statement about transmen as far as I could find.

People support her despite her terf statements coming from a place of misandry. It should be basic knowledge that they were unironically obsessed with eliminating and hating the male sex, that's the origin of TERF.

The MRM gets called sexists despite never advocating or passing for unequal laws, but radfems wanted to exterminate the male sex but is seen as credible and people can still identify freely as a radfem. It's completely nuts.

BloomingBrains · 2021-10-29T05:57:56+00:00

Yeah--they see trans women as men that are just appropriating womanhood for their own ends. Literally no different than the reactionaries saying that perverts will pretend to be trans to rape women in bathrooms. In fact I've literally heard them make the exact same argument.

Someone else made the point here before that transphobia by TERFS against trans women isn't misogyny, its actually misandry, because they don't see trans women as women, they see them as men, and I agree with that.

exhaustingforall · 2021-10-28T20:49:05+00:00

Agreed. I'd argue that most transphobia is caused by misandry.

Russelsteapot42 · 2021-10-28T23:25:43+00:00

This is part of why I think we need to make a big point about being trans-inclusive. Because transwomen and transmen both suffer from misandry to the extent that they are perceived as men, we have a very significant common interest.

Ok-Dragonfruit-697 · 2021-10-29T17:20:21+00:00

Of course. That's why they don't care about transmen at all. It's just misdirected misrandry. Anyone with male biology is a monster.

Threwaway42 · 2021-10-29T00:05:56+00:00

Honestly not all but in my experience so much of the transphobia focused on trans women stems so much from misandry and TERFs are such a misandrist hate group too

TintelFroot · 2021-10-28T20:42:57+00:00

Indeed, They view them as some kind of evil male infiltrators.

Though I've also met TERF's who were just extremely mad that some trans women pass better as women then them, the supposedly cis "real" women.

FormerAfro · 2021-10-29T00:55:56+00:00

Throughout this thread you identify misandry as a driving force of trans exclusionary behaviour. But this is idealistic. You are putting the cart before the horse. These ideas don't just spring fully formed from Zeus's head, they come from somewhere. They come from people making observations in the world and creating heuristics.

Often these observations lead to incorrect conclusions and nasty heuristics but they still nonetheless came from somewhere that wasn't another idea, emotion, or cultural sentiment.

Where does the misandry come from?

You've got to do the work to identify what material conditions produce this misandry, otherwise you are about as rigerous as a witchdoctor identifying spirits as the cause of disease. This will make you incapable of making any actionable prescriptions except for "promoting the correct ideas". But these ideas will wither in the dust, they will not take root, if the material conditions don't allow them.

What are the material conditions that promote misandrous ideas and TERF behaviours? Then, what can be done to change those conditions?

Bryan_Side_Account · 2021-10-30T22:46:41+00:00

TERFs definitely think of trans women - consciously or subconsciously - as men, a group they are scared of. I think TERFs come into the ideology for various reasons, but I've noticed a few subtypes of TERFs:

Cis lesbians terrified of trans women entering and existing in spaces meant for queer women (often they'll specifically have a problem with trans lesbians, who they see as a more specific threat to their lesbianhood)
Cis women who have at some point struggled with their gender identity but in the end came to the conclusion that they were just cis women (JK Rowling is an example). Often this results in the TERF diminishing the experiences of actual trans men, whose experiences they can't relate to.

Would anyone care to make any additions?

SpiritedPenguin · 2021-10-28T22:30:55+00:00

This is gonna get messy >_<

Party_Solid_2207 · 2021-10-29T07:42:47+00:00

Hello. I thought I would drop in to give my opinion. I guess you could describe me as gender critical.

I have no beef with trans folks and hope they can live their best lives. But I think sex matters. We should absolutely try and accommodate trans people but we should also be allowed to think that sex is immutable and gender is a social construct (there are obviously a number of intersex people who don’t fit the standard characterization but it’s a very small minority). We should be allowed to disagree about these things without being accused of violence if we don’t advocate for violence. Disagreeing with someone is not wishing and acting harm on them. The people who harm them are culpable for that, no one else.

The reason I think this has become an issue and it seems generational is the fact that older women remember 2nd wave feminism. Prior to this there were quite limiting gender roles. You had to dress and act a certain way and your options were limited.

This was torn down and the limits were removed, your sex made you a women but you could dress how you want, have whatever interests you want and it didn’t make you any less of a women.

These women are now being told that being a women is a performative act not related to biology. I suspect they feel like their core identity is being attacked.

Take the definition of woman what is it if you eliminate biology?

We are told it is someone who feels like a women.

Well what do women feel like? Often when you go down this route the answer finally is given that they like make up, and to wear dresses, and liked to play with dolls as girls.

It’s deeply regressive to say that to women who tried to leave those things behind.

And women who make these reasonable arguments are often subjected to violent threats (punch a terf) or associated with extreme people because they share an opinion in one small area. They are also exposed to bad faith arguments and personally attacked rather than engaged with on the points they highlight.

This is where I feel less sympathy as some of the tactics that extreme feminists use to shut down men are now being used against them “terfs”. Most of whom are not radical at all but are just worried about a sudden change to what they thought were their rights.

gratis_eekhoorn · 2021-10-29T13:23:05+00:00

I used to think otherwise but yes transphobia mostly originates from misandry, among trans people the most hated ones are trans women who do not pass, why? because in some people's eyes they are just men who are trying to get out of their roles. trans men who do not pass are not that much hated because even though they are still viewed as "women who try to look like men" in the eyes of some people, society is more accepting towards that.

rusty_boyo · 2021-10-28T21:06:24+00:00

This sub is losing me. You've strawmanned an ideological position, elaborated absolutely nothing, and the only comments are surface level responses accepting the premise with no real rationale backing it up besides things that sound on their face as though they could be right.

I am not a TERF and I feel like I could sum up several reasons that TERFs don't accept the current (widely unpopular) positions on gender without being misandrists.

raffes · 2021-10-28T21:58:06+00:00

This is a messy and complex topic that I don't think it's worth this sub deliving into, this is something that needs to be figured out between trans women and biological women, there's enough problems to focus on here without jumping into the middle of others.

bawlinout · 2021-10-29T01:22:06+00:00

the fact that such a thing as "trans" exists, is a bittersweet phenomena, because while its cool to be inclusive, usually we dont like do deep dive into the "why" of things.

why do -some- men, feel like they dont identify with their gender -- wat is gender--? this whole conversation has so many moving parts and it gets oversimplified because honestly , people dont have the bandwith to follow the logic. tbf, its not easy.

trans women exist because of all the prohibitions men have.

-the freedom to be fragile.
-the freedom to be soft.
-the privilege to be cared for
-the privilege to be appreciated solely because of their beauty

its a teetering line between narcissism and simply not being able to fulfill the "traditional role" of what a man is.

if we had a society that were more open towards mens shortcoming and insecurities, we essentially wouldnt need to tell men that if they want to be cared for they need to turn themselves into women

MizuNomuHito · 2021-10-28T23:30:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

revente · 2021-10-28T21:36:32+00:00

I’m a terf and I don’t hate men. I am trans exclusionary because I believe that women need sex based rights and single sex spaces.

lolokinx · 2021-10-28T21:58:33+00:00

The way more interesting question would be why mtf are more confrontational than ftm in almost every setting?

Pantusu · 2021-10-29T01:41:25+00:00

Reduce, reduce, reduce. There's usually little of value to be found in such simple statements encompassing such complexity. Reduce.

Reduce, and there's ultimately no difference to be found in hate: only the valence and target. It's such a very simple emotional filter of persisting fear and anger: thus, sadly widespread.

A person of lower base empathy does not require justification to themselves to engage with it, and cognitive dissonance, continually present, allows all sorts of contradictory things to subjectively be 'true.'

You'd have to wade through that and more to reach any sort of objective truth. So, ask yourself: What can be gained by establishing your statement, and can it be better achieved elsewise?

SPdoc · 2021-10-29T02:25:16+00:00

I do agree their prejudiced against men plays a role. But this entire post feels very..disingenuous. Like centering men’s feelings over genuine concern for the safety threats posed against trans women. Plus, we can’t deny trans women face a large proportion of violence, especially sexual assault, from cisgender men

JonWood007 · 2021-11-02T01:10:58+00:00

Eh, I dont think that's accurate. I think it's more, they dislike trans women because they literally base their identities around their womanhood and if gender lines are blurred, then doesn't that diminish their identity and the need for feminism?

I think that's what it really comes down to. Being inclusive to transgender people kind of upsets what feminism is about in their mind, and it undermines the need for their cause in the first place. Instead of simply seeing people as people they'd rather gatekeep in order to keep their grift going.