The logic of x issue affecting men is actually caused by misogyny

throwra_coolname209 · 2021-04-08T05:26:12+00:00

Yeah the feminine thing pisses me off to no end.

It's not that feminine things are viewed as weaker. It's that feminine things are viewed as off-limits to men. Because a man wanting to be feminine is less of a man. There's a lot of projection and miscommunication because people will make the assumption that not being a man = not being strong = weak, but that's literally just one facet of masculinity.

In reality, feminine things are viewed as bad when men do them solely because they aren't masculine. It has nothing to do with better or worse, it all has to do with labeling and internalized concepts of gender roles.

Ok-Dragonfruit-697 · 2021-04-08T04:19:08+00:00

Feminism excels at victim-blaming.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2021-04-08T04:48:07+00:00

One thing to note is that men don't really get called feminine. They are called effeminate. There's no such thing as a feminine man, only an effeminate man.

To most people, femininity is bound to femaleness. It is off limits to men. Men can only embody a mockery of it and that is what is hated.

Famous-Beautiful-731 · 2021-04-08T03:30:32+00:00

I've also seen it claimed that men not being able to show our emotions because society frowns on it is because female traits are seen as inferior. Nothing I've seen suggests they're seen as inferior rather it's the result of more rigid gender roles for men and boys. Gender roles have been loosening for girls for decades but for boys they've stayed (mostly) stagnant.

A perfect example of this is the phenomena of women refusing to date men who want to go dutch. The idea of fleecing a man for a free dinner is all over the internet and men are expected to pay for a date, if they don't then they're somehow evil and unworthy of your time. Guess what? Men paying for dinner is a traditional gender role.

If you want men to express themselves and stop fufilling historical gender roles then you have to also stop expecting them to be providers as well.

Jakeybaby125 · 2021-04-08T11:15:12+00:00

It's called trickle-down sexism. One way to counter it is to say x issue affecting women is actually caused by misandry. I've used it a few times. The feminists hate it. Always use their own logic against them

SonOfHibernia · 2021-04-08T14:16:57+00:00

“Society hates women”

Ship starts sinking: “women and children first”

OirishM · 2021-04-08T14:15:02+00:00

Neatly handled by the classic:

https://siryouarebeingmocked.tumblr.com/post/37261369040/a-nice-rebloggable-rebuttal-you-can-save-and-use

Society hates people stepping outside of the conventional gender roles. That doesn't mean all objections are driven solely by misogyny. It could very easily be respun to claim that everything is misandry.

"It just seems really self-centered to try and twist it to be about women when their "evidence" is just really lacking."

Yeah, the constant centring of women to the detriment of everyone else is tiresome. Same problem underpins white feminism and TERFery (and the homophobia you mention).

BloomingBrains · 2021-04-08T18:54:36+00:00

If anything it’s the reverse. Misandry designed to tear men down often carries within it misogynistic implications that catch women in the crossfire. So it’s really a question of which is the cause and which is the effect.

For example, people don’t hate femininity in women, only in men, so this a double standard targeted at men, which is misandry by definition.

Or the now infamous “men are dangerous someone please protect me from them” thing. At the surface level this is misandrist but also misogynistic because you are saying women are helpless little flowers.

However, when you look at how damaging each is, it’s pretty clear the former is much worse.

AmericanBoy505 · 2021-04-08T13:17:14+00:00

The misogyny argument is annoying. They do often conflate male vulnerability with femininity when they are two different things. Also, male vulnerability has been fetishized by these people.

Also, the homophobia against gay men is not always about femininity (if anything, feminine gay men are seen as “straight women trapped in men’s bodies”). Most of the homophobia I’ve seen boils down to how gay men are “pedophiles”, hypersexual, and very perverted.

If people want to talk about the issues men face, they shouldn’t project womanhood into men since they have different experiences with gender in society.

DanteLivra · 2021-04-08T15:02:09+00:00

That's exactly it, rigid gender roles, women managed to free themselves of it first, so they think that the whole world is here to oppress them.

In Reality, women are entitled to security and stability both things that men needs to provide otherwise they are worthless.

Female privilege is having a default value, no matter what you do a woman will always be more taken cared of than a man. If society hated feminine traits, we would care about our men a lot more.

Spleens88 · 2021-04-08T04:32:21+00:00

Homosexuality in men isn't a feminine concept at all. It could be argued there's nothing more masculine than the sexual conquest of another man. It's actually a type of subordinate masculinity. Let me use my degree's obligatory unit of irrelevance to explain:

Ever hear the phrase of saying something negative or something you don't like is gay? People don't say that necessarily because that thing is feminine, but simply because it's bad and they don't like it for whatever reason. In calling it gay though, they are also calling being gay bad. This is placing themselves above it, or placing being gay below them on a gender hierarchy.

Enter hegemonic masculinity/femininity, which is it's own major topic in such fields of research. Your post is getting at this, but erroneously suggests misogyny.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2021-04-08T21:31:34+00:00

A good example of this is the draft. They take the fact that men (and only men) are compelled to fight and die as misogyny, because it's really about society believing that women shouldn't be allowed in the military (even though they are), and the draft was passed by men anyway so it doesn't matter at all, or so they say.

They will literally point to an example of women having more autonomy as an example of misogyny. This is your brain on patriarchy theory. Men always bad. Women always suffer.

politicsthrowaway230 · 2021-04-08T11:12:59+00:00

A related, even less sensical, phenomenon is crediting minority-on-minority racism (eg. black-on-asian) to white supremacy.

generaljony · 2021-04-08T11:13:42+00:00

I think this is more complicated but I'll play devils advocate, I guess I may be downvoted. My understanding is that virile or celebrated masculinity is tied up with performing heterosexuality. Therefore, as a form of compensation, the gay male body feels a gendered need to prove its masculinity and thus is often muscular and (over)developed, a strived for aesthetic (for some) in the community.

If the above is true, though the 'hatred of the feminine' is not the sole cause, it is a product of society seeing gay men as not performing culturally celebrated (straight) masculinities. That the dynamic exists is perhaps evidence that homophobia is tied up in an gendered opposition toward femininity. Though more at a structural level.

Title	The logic of x issue affecting men is actually caused by misogyny
Author	nocturnefox
Upvotes	162
Comments	36
Date	April 8, 2021 3:25 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/mmiyu1/the_logic_of_x_issue_affecting_men_is_actually/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/the-logic-of-x-issue-affecting-men-is-actually.1061574 https://theredarchive.com/post/1061574