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We need to fight against accusations of being a part of the "alt-right"

TheLWMA
August 28, 2021
209 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

So, that guy who posted that video about ContraPoints? He's hellbent on slandering us. He went to multiple leftist subreddits accusing us of being right-wingers in disguise and implied that we unjustly banned him.

I think we need to start compiling a list of accusations against us. This community is starting to grow and there's a lot of groups who don't want to see us succeed in spreading our message.

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Title We need to fight against accusations of being a part of the "alt-right"
Author TheLWMA
Upvotes 209
Comments 112
Date August 28, 2021 1:25 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/we-need-to-fight-against-accusations-of-being-a.1065308
https://theredarchive.com/post/1065308
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/pd0j5v/we_need_to_fight_against_accusations_of_being_a/
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Comments

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (22 children) | Copy Link

We don't fit into their ideological framework. But they've got nothing on us. So all we can do is patiently and civilly explain our point of view and answer their objections.

The kneejerk hostile reactions of some of our regulars in that post didn't help (but the worst have been removed now). Let's try to educate as much as we can. Maybe they'll listen. If we immediately go on the attack and resort to calling them names, then they won't.

Let them show their hand. If they are open to dialogue, good. If they insist on continuing to make bad faith arguments, we will kick them out.

Remember that it is hard to break through ideological barriers, especially in the current polarized political climate. We would all do well to read How to Have Impossible Conversations by Peter Boghossian.

Let me also add a warning not to follow the user in question to other subs. That could be considered brigading or harassment, and could give the admins ammunition against us.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 73 points74 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

It's like they don't understand how human rights, which logically applies to everyone, isn't one of the foundational principles of leftism.

Even if you buy into feminism, you can just think of us as addressing the "few" issues that feminists believe will be naturally fixed as we tear down the patriarchy.

We are the inevitable and wanted consequence of late state gender equality for women, even under some interpretations of feminism.

It's unfortunately nothing new. These subs are either liberals calling themselves leftists, which is very common, as many of them don't know the difference yet. Or it's intentionally misleading.

This is funny because one criticism we have of feminism is that it's part of liberalism and not the left -- a true leftist cannot logically be a feminist. And the further left you go, the more people you find who agree with this. I guarantee a lot of us are further to the left than the guy who posted this.

Not that we don't have a lot of liberals here also. It's in our mission statement; we're a broad umbrella sub, meaning anything left of centre is considered "left-wing" here. It's just really funny to see this from people who probably subscribe to feminism as part of their definition of "the left". As if feminism didn't have obvious conservative and chivalric roots, putting them conceptually further to the right than us.

[–]peanutbutterjams 27 points28 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

For me there's also the issue of free and critical thought.

The only reason this baseless accusation is being leveled is because most people here are critical of feminism.

They might as well be calling us heretics. That's how irrational the claim is.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 20 points21 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I got started on a submission statement for this article but never finished it:

https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/postmodern-inquisition-faculties-education/

That's basically the gist of it though. We're using different words now ("reactionary" instead of "blasphemer", etc), but the culture and climate of modern day academia and society isn't all that different from the climate that Galileo grew up in. And the real tragedy is that the left is supposed to be against this sort of thing.

[–]peanutbutterjams 13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This mirrors my thoughts as well.

However, while it is a tragedy, it's also a threat.

If,

people grow up believing that the most popular view is the most correct view,

and,

the most popular view can be bought through the use of MSM and troll farms to influence opinion,

then,

fascism is on the horizon.

I can't see any way around this conclusion. I see a machine being built that's convenient for power and people don't believe in it because nobody's pressed the "ON" switch yet.

It's a big red button. Somebody's gonna push it.

I see this sub as not only a defence against this threat but an offence against it. We're pushing back border to make space for more men to be free in criticizing the dominant social narrative of our time and we're doing it with love and respect.

That's never been a bad thing.

TL;DR Suck it, haters.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If,

people grow up believing that the most popular view is the most correct view,

and,

the most popular view can be bought through the use of MSM and troll farms to influence opinion,

We're pretty much at that point now.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We are definitely the heretics of the left. That's why they like to smear us as alt-right. But our core values are more left than those of many of our detractors.

[–]MelissaMiranti 39 points40 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

For real, most men's issues are wrapped up in workers rights, which are the foundation of leftist thought.

[–]FinallyReborn 27 points28 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

One of the first known MRA's (Ernest Belford Bax) was a socialist who tied his economical view's into his advocacy. I am merely a right-leaning user of this subreddit, but I respect left-wing politics and the fact that the MRM is inherently left-leaning and has it's root's locked up in socialist theory.

Granted, early feminism was fairly stringent with the KKK and white-supremacy, which by our modern political standard is considered to be alt-right.

[–]helloiseeyou2020 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a really interesting observation.. Cant endorse the comparison though, as white supremacy was pretty well the dominant social belief to some level or another.

In this case the MRAs are the heretics of the time at the base level of their beliefs, before the extremism is discussed.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] 23 points24 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd appreciate it if you don't tag people from other subs. It could be considered harassment.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok I removed it.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks!

[–]fcsquadleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

a true leftist cannot logically be a feminist

As someone who identifies as an egalitarian feminist, I categorically disagree. You are imposing the exact definition of feminism that patriarchal feminists/neoliberal identitarians want to have imposed: one that is inherently divisive and which weakens a genuinely progressive & left wing movement to challenge the reign of billionaires.

The left is much better served by a men's movement which reveals the discrepancies between mainstream feminism's actions and its egalitarian rhetoric than one which tries to vilify a label which the overwhelming majority of those who identify as left or progressive happily embrace.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There's some discussion here, and a link to an article written by a feminist about this topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/oup51x/the_feminist_challenge_to_socialist_history_why/

And a couple articles about socialism vs feminism here (which probably deserve to be unpacked and discussed on this sub):

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/dominique-karamazov-the-poverty-of-feminism

https://marxistleftreview.org/articles/the-poverty-of-patriarchy-theory/

Patriarchy theory itself can be conceptually thought of as an intellectual ripoff of Marxist class theory. And dividing men and women with the divisive rhetoric of feminism works against the class solidarity that Marx thought was important for bringing about social change.

Feminism detracts from class issues and you can see this at work with woke capitalism, and the stuff they talk about on r/StupIDPol.

I should note that the intellectual beef that leftists have with feminism is over radical feminism, or patriarchy theory. Not classical 2nd wave liberal feminism (ironically enough). Which I'm guessing might be where you fall.

[–]fcsquadleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy theory itself can be conceptually thought of as an intellectual ripoff of Marxist class theory. And dividing men and women with the divisive rhetoric of feminism works against the class solidarity that Marx thought was important for bringing about social change.

I don't disagree … EXCEPT for the implication that all feminisms must follow this approach. Egalitarian feminism (which presumably would be akin to the classical 2nd wave liberal feminism you allude to, at least in some sense) does not.

I don't see how it serves the purposes of the left to exile those of us who refuse to surrender the egalitarian aspirations of feminism at its best to the mainstream and patriarchal feminists who are working hard to preserve female privilege.

Just like Bernie Sanders and Justice Democrats seek to hold corporatist Democrats accountable when they serve corporate interests instead of those of the public, egalitarian feminists aim to hold patriarchal feminists accountable when they preach equality and then work to subvert it.

Thanks for the respectful reply; your links look interesting.

[–]Bugu4787 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The further left you go the less of a feminist you will get. Like AOC for example ……

[–]reverbiscrap 35 points36 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Guy is big mad, it's nearly comical.

Having seen his deleted posts, however, shows me why he was banned.

[–]TheLWMA[S] 31 points32 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

And he wasn't even banned for anything he said on this sub. He was banned because he slandered us on other subreddits.

https://i.imgur.com/lduW3Ii.png

And strangely, he was the one who posted this image, when the first thing he did was try to play victim and imply that he was banned unjustly.

[–]steamedhamjobleft-wing male advocate 8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was looking at the post on that sub you were talking about and they literally think anything that's not aggressively feminist is somehow "fake" left. I can only assume that is that guy's main issue with this sub because literally everything else he said was like perfectly in line with our beliefs. What a world 🤡

edit: Also, as a side note, just reading through, that sub is pretty obsessed with trying to call out "fake" left subs. It's actually not surprising we got on their radar. It's kind of their thing. Maybe this really isn't worth being worried about.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you go back and look I think they're pretty well convinced that we're "legitimate" for whatever that's worth.

It does look like there might be some actual larping around Reddit from right wingers, either on purpose or otherwise though. I didn't check out any of the other named subs, but it sounds like they're mostly satire subs, which may not be completely obvious to other people unless you're a right winger who's into that kind of thing.

I've seen the same kind of role playing on the left but not to the same degree. r/accidentallycommunist and r/shitliberalssay both come to mind, for example. They're a little more explicite and not really "larpy", but I think that's the road that some of those other subs went down. The later sub does kind of relish in the fact that they trick conservatives into thinking it's a conservative sub, and that's not even really the point of it (or so they say).

These "fake left subs" they're trying to target sound like joke subs set up by conservatives to "make fun of the libs". But for whatever reason, this other sub thinks it's some kind of honeypot meant to trick leftists into joining and then being indoctrinated into the right.

Which if you think about it is really pretty stupid, and probably stokes the egos of those subs that they're concerned about for them to be taken so seriously by other leftists (and because of the drama of our sub getting caught up in it... they might start trolling and trying to get other leftwing subs placed on that list if they follow through with making one).

[–]2717192619192left-wing male advocate 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wrote that ban message, his activity on other subs was the final nail in the coffin but only after he acted up here quite a bit.

[–]Algoresball 35 points36 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you can look at the content of this subreddit and think we’re part of the alt right then you’re just nuts and can’t be reasoned with

[–]TheLWMA[S] 27 points28 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, some people are told that we are "right wingers in disguise" and, as a result, don't even bother checking this sub to see if that's true. At best, they take a cursory glance.

[–]quietlurk10 28 points29 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

You can not reason with people who are committed to misunderstanding you.

These people have decided that all acknowledgement of means suffering is “Alt right” shit. We won’t convince them. Move on. Convince people in your life that haven’t made up their minds that this is important.

[–]Maldevinine 17 points18 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

When I get into an argument on the internet, I'm not there to convince the person I'm arguing against. Those of us who speak up are always the most extreme in any viewpoint because the extremists care.

I speak to convince the silent listeners. I make my point clearly and as well supported as I can so that a later reader can follow along and understand what I say.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is the way. And that's why it's important to keep your cool. Not always easy, I know.

[–]quietlurk10 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And how is that working for us? Constantly fighting on terms dictated to us by people who have no interest in good faith engagement? Maybe the reason any sort of men’s movement (especially a leftward one) keeps losing is that instead of just doing what we need to do, organizing men, we spend all our time trying to convince our enemies that we’re actually not that bad.

You ever notice how feminists don’t spend any time trying to assure us they’re good? Maybe there’s something to that.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And how is that working for us?

For us as LWMA? Pretty well. We keep growing.

Constantly fighting on terms dictated to us by people who have no interest in good faith engagement?

No. Mostly we fight on our terms.

You ever notice how feminists don’t spend any time trying to assure us they’re good? Maybe there’s something to that.

They have the political power and lots of social support on their side. It's a very different fight.

But yeah, we should not need to assure people that we're good. But we do want to represent clearly what we stand for, to dispel false ideas about that, and hopefully to make people coming in good faith and with an open mind see through the misinformation campaigns of our detractors.

[–]peanutbutterjams 9 points10 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

No, you must always make space for your ideas to exist. Ignoring these people means a decrease in our ability to help other men suffering from the effects of a dominant social narrative that demeans and hates them.

[–]quietlurk10 6 points7 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

You’re mistaking “picking your battles” for “not allowing space for your ideas to exist”. There’s nothing on their end to engage, engaging with bad faith actors only drains YOUR energy. How many times are you going to lay out a perfectly cogent, cited argument for these people, only to get the response of “found the incel 🤡” while their friends hoot and holler? How many times are you going to try and kick that football because you insist that this time, Lucy won’t pull it away?

[–]peanutbutterjams 10 points11 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

There’s nothing on their end to engage, engaging with bad faith actors only drains YOUR energy.

I've been talking to hate groups for 20 years now. Bring it on. I can do it all day.

How many times are you going to lay out a perfectly cogent, cited argument for these people

As many times as it takes.

[–]MelissaMiranti 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

As many times as it takes.

"I can do this all day."

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Removed as rule 7 violation.

[–]quietlurk10 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then I’m sure It’d be pretty embarrassing for you if there had been a significantly noted rise in hate groups over the past 20 years? Almost as if hate is an emotional response not ties to logic or reason and therefore cannot be defeated using them? Just because Oprah had an episode with a Klansman who saw the error of his ways every once in a while doesn’t mean it’s the norm.

[–]peanutbutterjams 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then I’m sure It’d be pretty embarrassing for you if there had been a significantly noted rise in hate groups over the past 20 years?

lol not at all. I'm just another shoulder to the wheel. Who knows how many people would have been in those groups without my influence?

Thinking that any one person is the solution to a problem is pure egoism.

Almost as if hate is an emotional response not ties to logic or reason and therefore cannot be defeated using them?

That's defeatism.

And maybe egoism again. You won't ever change anyone's mind.

All you can do is give people reason to change their own minds. And you won't ever see that happening. You won't be there to see them admit you're right, because it's not about you being right but about them finding the most healthiest position they can.

It's very unsatisfying. Brace yourself for that but do it anyways because it's the right thing to do.

[–]TheMaskofMan 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Zealots often claim their fellow believers who reach a different conclusion are pretenders, and it makes a sense: if you both believe the same thing how can you reach a different conclusion?

Ergo, you must be either wrong, or a liar. The user tried to 'correct' you, but you clearly didn't see the 'truth', so you must be false leftists.

Overmore, since you laying claim to the same title there's all the more incentive to throw you out of the club as an outsider, because then you don't have to share power within the movement.

See, the Iron Law of Institutions and the left

A choice quote:

“The people who control institutions care first and foremost about their power within the institution rather than the power of the institution itself. Thus, they would rather the institution ‘fail’ while they remain in power within the institution than for the institution to “succeed” if that requires them to lose power within the institution.”

In simpler terms, people would rather be a middle fish in a small pond than a middle fish in a big pond. A king in a small land than a lord in an empire.

A Religious Example

It's like Sunni vs. Shia or Protestants vs. Catholics. Both examples have a shared foundation (the former about Muhammed being the last Prophet, and the latter about Christ's dvinity), but can and often have been at each others' throats. Power within the group is hotly contested and is sometimes fought for more feverishly than outsider enemies.

See also, Narcissism of small differences organically emerge.

Finally

For you, a joke:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."

"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.

"Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Are you religious?"

He said: "Yes."

I said: "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

"Christian."

"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"

He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."

I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.

[–]needletothebar 17 points18 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

how in the world would LEFT WING advocates be part of the alt right?

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

According to some, we pretend to be left-wing in order to trick people into right-wing ideologies or something. I know, it makes no sense.

[–]SchalaZeal01 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, it does work with feminism. Some people say they're left wing, and they have all those 'protect the poor weak powerless women' policies being voted, all kinds of stuff that presumes women are those agency-less creatures made of porcelain. Sounds right-wing to me. They even use those arguments for female prisoners. And only female ones.

Helping the poor and needy is fine. Making women to be the poorest and neediest at the base line (without being poor or in need) is basically calling them incompetent and handicapped. And also focusing all resources on only female victims.

[–]RedbullAndCoding 16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was just watching ContraPoints' video on men the other day. It really threw me off the wrong the way the way she pandered to the 'women have it worse' rhetoric. At the end of the video she actually tried to make a point the root of men's suffering is actually a lack of purpose resulting from an absence of REAL problems. As someone who makes no effort to understand men other than a cursory reading of 'War against Boys', how she justifies such blindsided opinions to herself is beyond me.

[–]FesseEnChocolat 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The simple fact that we are a men's right advocating group is enough to classify us as alt-rightwingers/fascists/whatever buzz word in the eyes of many people. So why make the extra-effort to not appear like, when we will always be depicted as such no matter what we do and belive?

[–]anonymouslionn 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the large majority of readers here are left wing

But I also do think a small percentage are more centrist or slightly right leaning but fully support men’s issues so they feel at home here. And rightfully so

And after the attack on and bans of men’s subs namely mgtow and especially mgtow 2 (which was and still is fucking disgusting), I think that small percentage of centrists/slightly right leaners has grown a little bit

[–]anonymouslionn 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So maybe there might be some slight inklings of right leaning points, but by in large this sub is nested comfortably in the left wing

[–]xeverxsleepx 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

"Everyone I disagree with is alt-right!!"

I had a close (black, female) friend like this.

Had.

I still really miss her but nothing I can do about it now. I've lost tons of friends in life, I'll move on.

But yeah this stance is so awful. They're again "the binary" but created one themselves (or rather, furthered the status quo). They tend to be highly against individualism too and see it as a "toxic white" thing. Well I guess I'll keep being a "toxic individual" then.

Also which Contra vid was it?

[–]TheLWMA[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

To be fair, I do think the alt-right exists and it is a big problem. However, I know what you're talking about.

Also which Contra vid was it?

It was the one about men.

[–]xeverxsleepx 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lmao must've missed that one. What did she say in it?

[–]TheLWMA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The gist of it was basically:

"Patriarchy hurts everyone. Men need to learn to stop being toxic to fight against their own oppression!"

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also which Contra vid was it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/pcq8td/contrapoints_men/

[–]dungeonmonkey69 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a non partisan issue like anything to do with equality. It should be something both right and left wing come together on. The fact it's been aligned with a certain political faction is just dishonest and gaslighty

[–]AnnonymousXXX 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What infuriates me the most is when people claim that MRAs are deliberately recruiting men down the "alt-right rabbit hole". They don't understand that the alt-right co-opted OUR talking points, not the other way around. This was the fault of youtube's algorithm. MRAs have no control over what videos youtube's algorithm decides to throw into it's recommended list.

[–]IndividualRanger5379 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Everything is less left is alt-right when to them when they're this alt left.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The term that I've seen used for this branch of the left is auth-left ("authoritarian left").

The irony is they might be the ones who aren't true leftists, making this an act of projection on their part.

The other way to look at this is the horseshoe theory, although I don't think politics exist on a singular line like that.

Alt-left isn't a bad descriptor though, and it captures the essence that they're not "far left", but are instead more of like a weird step child of the left. They also popped up right around the time the alt-right was growing, and they saw themselves as being in opposition to the alt-right because nobody else on the leff was doing enough to stop it. Hence antifa and all that. At the time I actually really supported them, but the alt-right has gone and basically destroyed itself, and now we have this monster on our side of the fence that we really need to start thinking about trying to control and put on a leash.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've also seen it referred to as ctrl-left.

[–]LacklustreFriend 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The classic left-right political spectrum has always had issues, but I think particularly in recent years it has become increasingly irrelevant. We're entering a brave new world with vastly different economic, social and technological rules, where the philosophical ideas born in the industrial revolution struggle to apply to the information age. Just as new philosophies and ideologies had to thought up to account for the changes in society in the Industrial Revolution, we are waiting for our own new understanding.

There are really no good labels I think. I'm partial to 'woke' and 'critical social justice' in so far as they're not derivative from other political terms and therefore less misleading.

[–]problem_redditorright-wing guest 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not to defend the alt-right which is a group I really have no love for, but I take the opposite point of view - I tend to view the alt-right as a reaction to critical social justice/wokeness.

Antifa and other such seemingly recent alt-left movements, as you call them, have ideological roots that go far back. They are just the latest incarnation of that narrative. They stem from a whole host of simplistic threat narratives which designate one group as the "oppressor" and the other as the "oppressed".

Those promoting that narrative assert that we exist in a system designed specifically to benefit the former group and disadvantage the latter group. They assert that every single member of the former group is complicit simply by existing in that system and enjoying benefits that they can never surrender, even if they want to. They assert that the latter group has some special knowledge of the world which make their perspectives inherently more valuable. They justify and even celebrate dehumanisation and hatred of the target group - the supposedly "oppressor" group - as righteous indignation or punching up.

This has been circulating in political discourse for a long time. Critical race theory and feminist ideology are much, much older than the alt-right. I remember hearing the whole "Check your privilege" bullshit being bandied around in the mainstream long before I even heard anyone mention the term "alt-right". It seemed so clear to me even then that it was being used as a bludgeon.

I feel like referring to this as simply a reaction to the alt-right is letting them off far too easy. "Woke ideology" is much older, more entrenched and harder to combat. It's an ugly blot on the public discourse that has been growing for a very long time.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I tend to view the alt-right as a reaction to critical social justice/wokeness.

Oh absolutely I would agree with that.

But this brand of leftism, while certainly related to (and in defense of) woke/sjw ideology, is I think a different incarnation, and has different people in it. If that makes sense.

So it's a reaction to a reaction.

I remember telling people that all this alt-right stuff was really just a reaction to liberals being kind of tone death, and occasionally just plain stupid (which is ironic now that these guys are adamant about being leftists and not liberals, when the whole thing started with idpol liberals, making them liberal adjacent in my mind, and not the "true leftists" that they think they are lol).

[–]Playful-Reporter6577 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why? I think by refuting their points, you're only giving them attention they don't deserve. Let them believe in their mischievous boogeymen hiding behind every corner, most people aren't/shouldn't fall for their fear-mongering nonsense.

[–]TheLWMA[S] 16 points17 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're only giving them attention they don't deserve.

I don't see it like that. I see it as trying to stand up for ourselves.

If anything, I think that us trying to refute against accusations thrown against us shows a level of integrity and consistency.

[–]SpiritedPenguin 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Bingo.

There's a difference between being a good person and being a doormat.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I had to learn that the hard way. My parents, and the church they made me grow up in, taught that it was the same thing.

[–]matrixislife 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Get used to it, this will be a feature of this community from now until the end of time. This is a typical smear from people who will not listen to an answer: if you disagree with them you are automatically right-wing, you should recognise the response routine by now.

It might be worth putting something in the sidebar to highlight your position, but otherwise it's a waste of effort trying to convince those opposed to the sub.

[–]BreakThings99 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The alt-right generally romanticizes a mythical past before all that 'SJW crap'. This sub seems to want to go foward, and apply the 'SJW stuff' to issues of men. It does not view 'feminism' as the sole oppressor that must be fought against. It just asks what can harm men and how to solve these problems. There is no desire here for women to 'go back to the place', just how to alleviate the suffering many men go through.

[–]dontpet 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Any publicity is good publicity.

As long as we keep things tidy here, I'm not too worried. So many people come along to see what the noise is about and find that it's quite a refreshing viewpoint.

[–]TheLWMA[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

See that's the problem though. If people slander us enough, they won't even bother checking.

[–]Blauwpetjevalued LWMA contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

With all respect, I think we can use our energy better. Give people the information we want them to get. Stay civil, 'sincere as the doves and cunning as the snakes' or whatever the English wording of that is. Speak softly and carry a big stick without showing it. In other words: the way we always did it. And avoid meta-discussions except when they're absolutely necessary.

[–]skysinsane -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"alt-right" is a meaningless term primarily used as an insult to anyone who isn't a carbon-copy communist radical feminist.

[–]BloomingBrains 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't really see the point in overreacting to this. We know people think this way. It's nothing new. Until they actually bring some kind of substance to the table, I have no interest in trying to debate them or prove why they're wrong. If people think anything bad about this sub, they should quote specific things users have said. I'll openly challenge anyone to trawl my entire user history and find a single sexist or alt right quote.

[–]NoMarriageNoKids 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

"Alt-Right" is a TINY group of people. The leftists just use it as a blanket term for anyone further right than centrist Biden.

[–]AnnonymousXXX 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or left of Biden but they can't tell the difference.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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