what do you think of MRAs saying the problem is unmasculine men?

MemeMasterBill · 2022-07-30T02:48:21+00:00

I'm a firm believer that a man should be able to choose how masculine/feminine he is. Wanna be a huge damn tower of muscle? Awesome! Wanna be a literal femboy? Also awesome! A man should be able to choose.

MelissaMiranti · 2022-07-29T21:54:17+00:00

I haven't seen this trend. Got any links?

lightning_palm · 2022-07-29T22:47:26+00:00

Traditional masculinity (and chivalry) can be summed up in a few attributes:

industrious (hardworking)
risk-tolerant (fearless)
stoic (possessing emotional self-control)
disposable (self-sacrificing)

In essence, what women possess in inherent worth merely through their existence, men must earn through personal sacrifice (of their time, their safety, their emotions, and even their lives).

As far as the LWMA perspective is concerned, those are outdated gender scripts which are due for a change that have been perpetuated through social bribes that urged men to sacrifice their well-being for the "greater good," which often means protecting and providing for women and children at their own detriment as well as competing for status and ultimately serving the "greater good" by producing goods, keeping the order of law, defending against outside invaders, etc.

On the other hand, I also note that many traditionally masculine activities can be beneficial to the well-being of men. For example, military culture (if not forced on someone through conscription, which is associated with reduced educational and financial outcomes, increased criminality, and, in some cases, suicide) offers many mental-health benefits. Thus, we must separate expectations from natural inclinations and the institutions in which they manifest (e.g., one can reject the military as an institution and nevertheless learn the lesson it teaches us about men's mental health). Another example is the observation that boys tend to engage in more risky play (roughhousing). Where such things are not forced on the individual, I don't see anything negative about them.

If the term "toxic masculinity" had not been hijacked by feminists and didn't have its current connotation, I would use the term to describe these norms. Traditionally masculine expectations (as opposed to natural inclinations) are incompatible with a gender egalitarian worldview that sees men and women (and their lives) as possessing equal inherent human worth.

politicsthrowaway230 · 2022-07-30T09:32:13+00:00

I don't think you should dignify this by calling it an MRA argument.

International_Crew89 · 2022-07-30T19:49:32+00:00

Sounds like trad-con bullshit. The people saying that kind of stuff are also more likely to believe that the rise in acceptance of transgenderism will lead to the collapse of our society, just like they said about homosexuality 40+ years ago, and equality amongst races before that.

Banake · 2022-07-30T19:34:53+00:00

Most of the time, this is just trying to dictate what men can or cannot do.

CoffeehasSentience · 2022-07-30T07:14:43+00:00

They just enjoy that unhealthy competition between men. They see themselves as winners of it so they don't care about the losers.

2022-07-30T00:51:59+00:00

Those MRAs should realize that gender expectations are the cause of many of men's issues.

Automatic_Biscotti31 · 2022-07-30T06:04:01+00:00

It’s like there’s no right way to exist to people like that except for EXACTLY the way they want you to be. “Manly” and “feminine” are incredibly arbitrary concepts. Let people live.

Blauwpetje · 2022-07-30T15:57:01+00:00

It comes close to the feminist nice-guy-myth, actually. Many feminists prefer machos sexually and calm their conscience with a narrative like that.

BloomingBrains · 2022-07-30T22:13:05+00:00

Seems like sexism to me. Why are they associating femininity to being abusive? In other words, it sounds like they're establishing some sort of "toxic femininity", and then comparing the "unmasculine men" to the angry, toxic feminists that exemplify that kind of femininity. I've seen a lot of traditionalists say stuff like this, where its almost like they think that the reason women turn bitter and misandrist is because they resent men for being weak and try to "provoke them" into being tough again.

Which doesn't even make sense to me to begin with. Why would weak, cowardly people become abusive? Wouldn't it be the opposite? Wouldn't they fear reprisal?

Their definition of "masculinity" seems all messed up to me. The way some of them talk, it almost sounds like they're saying "a real man would control his woman and not let all this feminist shit happen" kind of thing.

fishkrate · 2022-07-31T05:26:13+00:00

Its just performative bullshit by chest thumping dipshits who don't understand the world beyond their narrow view of it.

Motanul_Negru · 2022-07-29T21:55:35+00:00

That if it helps their homophobia, the guys who actually spout this line, MRA or otherwise, can say it's not gay when they kiss my unmasculine arse

Reddit1984Censorship · 2022-07-29T22:16:33+00:00

I think their point (not that i necessarily agree) is that if there wasnt for those weak men we wouldnt find ourselves in the current situation we are in in the first place.

helloiseeyou2020 · 2022-07-30T01:04:02+00:00

Reductive tradcon bullshit

2022-07-29T22:23:17+00:00

First of everything, what problem are we talking about? Because "being masculine" is just a thing that may be the cause of an actual problem. What is the problem? The mass shootings? The depresion among people? Low-wage jobs?

madonnamanpower · 2022-07-30T01:59:52+00:00

I think people who say shit like that aren't masculine at all. It's my opinion that they have an inhuman caricature of behavior they call masculine. That interferes deeply with the natural development of masculinity.

Ironically my father is from the middle east and he is more masculine than most people over the age of 30 here. Yet a lot of his behavior would be mocked as feminine in school yards of ages ago. I don't think school yards are as bad as such anymore. It seems like the zoomers are more masculine than previous generations.

Cunari · 2022-07-31T04:36:29+00:00

I see this more in red pill communities than men's rights but it's to foster an ingroup bias.

It is sort of a pipeline as alleged. Men goes to red pill community for help getting female attention. All the tips involve misogynist and misandrist attitudes. Man becomes radicalized.

RockmanXX · 2022-07-29T22:28:49+00:00

I think there is a nugget of truth in this. Its usually the insecure men that are aggressive&hostile. Whereas the more accomplished&confident Men tend to be warm&polite. It can't be a coincidence that some of most hostile men i've dealt with are also male feminists.

However, calling insecure men "Weak" is not helping, it'll only make them more insecure&abusive.

coolboy_24278 · 2022-07-29T22:44:16+00:00

depends who they are exactly referring to as “weak” and “unmasculine”. it its someone with more feminine traits, then yes its wrong to call them that. or a guy who shows a lot of anger and wanting to put other men and women down then those guys are toxic

PQKN051502 · 2022-07-30T10:46:31+00:00

Tradcons are not MRAs. At least yall better help us kick them out of MRM.

Raphe9000 · 2022-07-30T19:12:13+00:00

I think people should just be who they naturally are, and if the person they naturally are happens to be stereotypically masculine or stereotypically feminine they should not feel any shame for that.

I myself don't swing much in either direction, though I have plenty of stereotypically masculine/feminine interests. Because general androgyny is much more feminine than the expectations placed on men however, I am definitely perceived as more feminine.

From what I've seen, some MRA's see that as a good thing, that people like me dare to be different despite the challenges from toxic expectations against men that discourage it. And some see it as a bad thing, that I am somehow rejecting who I "really am" because of toxic perceptions of masculinity.

Similarly, some feminists see it as a good thing, saying that masculinity is toxic, so it's good that those like me aren't so obsessed with it. And some see it as a bad thing, saying that we're not living up to the responsibilities we have by being men.

In all those scenarios, it is obviously somebody judging us based on how we fit into their narrative, ignoring the individual and instead prioritizing tribal, group dynamics and the idea of inherent responsibility based on one's unchosen hand in life.

I'm not afraid to be feminine, and I'm not afraid to defend masculinity. I'm not who I am because I wanted to conform; I am who I am because I chose not to. And I didn't choose not to because I wanted to be different; I chose not to because doing so wasn't in my best interests. If conforming worked best for me and allowed me to be who I felt I was, I would have conformed. Thus, when men are called too masculine or insulted for their masculine personality, I see it as no different than when I've been called too feminine and insulted for my more feminine personality.

Similarly, I've been called too masculine many times as well as had my behaviors attributed to my gender and sex.

Women can experience all of this as well, with the conflict on if being too feminine is being weak and stereotypical or if not being feminine enough is rejecting femininity due to toxic perceptions of it; I've seen it happen and I hate it all the same.

However, the general body of feminism has also spent a whole hell of a lot of time expressing the fact that women can be whatever they want to, be it masculine, feminine, or something else entirely. Those same standards have unfortunately not been granted to men in a remotely similar amount, so there is societal pressures from all sides criticizing men for being too masculine or too feminine.

I have to believe that this is also one reason why we see so many more biological males transitioning into women than we do see biological females into men. A woman can live a masculine or feminine life and be generally accepted, but a man can do neither.

As such, it makes a lot of sense for a transwoman to openly transition all the way, leaving behind those tight standards and being allowed to express themselves however they choose, except for the cases of those who reject their new identity, something very often seen in the same feminist spaces that hate them for being biologically male no matter what.

And of course it goes both ways, making transitioning at all much more of a danger for transmen, going from standards where they can present moderately either way and still be accepted to ones where they won't be accepted no matter where they fall, especially since they have not had their whole lives to become numb to insults and judgement against them.

hendrixski · 2022-07-31T16:05:29+00:00

I think they're wrong. The problem is societies expectation that men must be strong.

Razorbladekandyfan · 2022-08-03T18:42:40+00:00

They are misandrists.

Title	what do you think of MRAs saying the problem is unmasculine men?
Author	boomboxspence
Upvotes	23
Comments	48
Date	July 29, 2022 9:45 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/wbglxd/what_do_you_think_of_mras_saying_the_problem_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-do-you-think-of-mras-saying-the-problem-is.1125969 https://theredarchive.com/post/1125969