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When the community on r-psychology is arguing gender issues

February 10, 2021
30 upvotes

https://np.reddit.com/comments/lf12er/_/

So, the psychology subreddit shared a study that had something to do with masculinity, so it does not surprise that we received some... interesting insight in how certain people perceive society.

What does surprise though, is that people are so invested to push their "femininity is seen as negative and not only when perfomed by men"-theory which I, in the way it is presented here, consider to be simply ignorant towards reality.

This was in response to men reacting aggressively in response to threatening their masculinity and women not doing the same. Comments then argued if the women's reaction might be influenced by womanhood being seen as negative which would therefore make questioning it less severe if not positive. Men's behaviour was obviously called the same thing that everything even remotely in connection to men is called now - toxic masculinity: The number one label every manifestation of misandry is thrown into but magically swapped with misogyny when being asked to define it. Men who'd like to be treated equally hate that trick.

Even a mod had to step in and pin a comment reading that that conclusion of femininity=bad modulating the sample's behaviour is not supported by the provided paper.

But it still remains that the comment section circlejerked further down the "men are negatively affected by backfiring misogyny and not misandry" kinda road, even if that is not a quote from the thread.

Instead of citing evidence on the women are wonderful effect, the reactions of victims, bystanders, perpetrators, judges and so on regarding male victims and female perps of sexual and physical violence up to death, the perception of studies showing discrimination against men as less sound and relevant and so on, they instead only cite a study on the overestimation of times women interrupted men 25 years ago.

Some then report that women would stop playing with barbies and resent pink to distance themselves from what is feminine as that is deemed ugly by society and we underpay jobs requiring empathy in an reaction to it being a typically feminine trait...

I still do not know how the perception of women with thicc beards and full body hair, burping and farting women, women using vulgar language, women showing typically masculine interests like cars and sports and so on fits the "masculine good, feminine bad" theory they attempt to use to describe the expectations put on both men and women, but I doubt anyone really cares to educate me on that without attempting to use history books to not just explain, but to instead prove their concept of society being actually present. This is obviously impossible. You can use history to explain how we got to the current situation, but you still have to be able to prove that said situation is even present. If that is not possible, your explanation does not change anything about that, no matter how plausible it might sound. And we also have to be careful not to just selectively search for only the things we assume to be plausible based on our current limited knowledge. It is similar to the weather forecast in a way - you can calculate a lot regarding temps, rain and whatnot, but in the end the actual data will decide if it actually holds up. Many misandrists like to just search for a way to reason whatever values they'd like and skip looking out of the window for fear of being proven wrong.

I'd argue that men and women are shamed for not living up to their respective expectations and as long as you do not limit your theory to things like masculinity = rationality and femininity = emotionality, which fails to address the bigger picture, I doubt that acting typically masculine would be widely regarded as positive in women. And for the most part acting in a rational manner is seen as advantageous in everyone for it being considered superior in many job contexts, not for it being considered masculine. Even if it is considered masculine at the same time, I doubt it to be a valid symptom of femininity being seen as inferior. And I also proactively disagree that the emotionality trait was given women based on it being the inferior one, considering that women are more open regaring (showing) their emotions and receive less negative feedback or even strong support and protection in response to it. It does benefit them in ways it does not for men, and it does hurt men in ways it does not for women. It is not surprising at all that they are therefore facing these assumptions, nor that they do better in job environments when presenting themselves more rational and calculated.

Anyway, what is your take on this? Do you think these one-sided views being popular in psychology-forums is problematic and do you have any ideas to address the issue?

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[–]ShortTailBoa 15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyway, what is your take on this? Do you think these one-sided views being popular in psychology-forums is problematic and do you have any ideas to address the issue?

It's incredibly problematic and it's why so many men suffer from mental health issues. There's no way for them to get help since society is so invested in helping women over them.

This has been a problem that's talked about multiple times.

[–]floriandeckard 12 points13 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

men bad, women great. Women must be listened all the time. Women will never get angry(gets angry when someone openly disagree with her)

This shit is hilarious. And the whole "men get angry when their masculinity is threatened but women don't" is very, very interesting. Just try to threaten a women's feminity and see the responses by yourself. We literally live in a dark comedy.

[–]BCRE8TVE 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Kinda curious, how would you threaten a woman's femininity? By calling her beauty into question? I may be wrong but I had the feeling masculinity is performative, it's something you have to do to keep being masculine. Femininity on the other hand is something you are, you are a woman, you are fertile, and since it's not a role it can't really be taken away. So fas as I know there's no female equivalent to emasculation.

So, how would one threaten someone's femininity? Call them ugly? Say they will never have children?

[–]floriandeckard 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So: Masculinity is not just muscles or power. They associate it with anything man, or manly.

If you can threaten someone's masculinity by calling them weak, homosexual or anything, you can threat someone's femininity with calling them ugly, not worthy or whatsoever. Also, when you say "hmm, I see some girls behave like that" they will get in a choir and chant "you are a misognyst incel. Not every woman is like that. Stop generalizing" and so on.

If, a man feels his masculinity threatened when someone says "men are rapists", as you can see same can be applied to women as well. I just use same logic and alter it.

[–]BCRE8TVE 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Calling a man ugly is not really threatening his masculinity. Calling a man weak is threatening his role as the provider and protector, it implies he would be unable to perform his duties as a man. Calling a man homosexual is attacking his sexuality, in that traditionally a huge measure of success as a man is seeing how many women you can get with. Calling them homosexual means either they can't get women, or that they would rather take it in the ass like a woman, rather than being a man. All of these insults attack a man's ability or willingness to fulfil the roles expected of a man.

Per calling women not worthy, I mean that's a general insult for people in general no? I don't see how this is specifically attacking femininity rather than just dismissing a person regardless of their gender.

Per ugly, I suppose that would be one yes, but I struggle to think of anything else beyond that that would attack a woman's femininity.

Also, when you say "hmm, I see some girls behave like that" they will get in a choir and chant "you are a misognyst incel. Not every woman is like that. Stop generalizing" and so on.

Is this calling out say hypergamy or women who sleep around?

If, a man feels his masculinity threatened when someone says "men are rapists", as you can see same can be applied to women as well. I just use same logic and alter it.

Not quite the same. There are problems that are specific to women and to men, that the other gender just doesn't have a direct equivalent for.

[–]floriandeckard 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

hypergamy? no not that stuff. I mean any kind of thing you see in common and mention with “girls/some women are like...”

I do not believe that masculinity is being threatened.

Not worthy

I wrote in a rush, I was busy. What I mean is: Women really thinks that they are very special and important. Violating it threatens their femininity. They view masculinity as a concept. I don’t know if you view it as a concept too.

Femininity is also a concept. When you say they are not good mothers, they are not special, they are not attractive, they behave similar to men who get an insult on their masculinity. That is purely my observation, and up to debate.

Femininity is also about being woman nowadays. I can’t separate it with some contemporary stuff. For example, this “go queen” thing. Or let’s say, the very bad DC superwoman movies. When someone doesn’t like it, they blame you for being misogynistic. I probably associate with femininity? Because I just realized it might be about their ideology rather than femininity. I stop here because I need you to correct me

[–]BCRE8TVE 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not believe that masculinity is being threatened.

I don't think that masculinity as a concept in general can be threatened, but I absolutely do feel that individual men can feel that their masculinity is being attacked or is being questioned. Being masculine (however they wish to define it) is part of a man's identity, and attacking a man's masculinity is therefore attacking a part of a man's identity.

I wrote in a rush, I was busy. What I mean is: Women really thinks that they are very special and important. Violating it threatens their femininity. They view masculinity as a concept. I don’t know if you view it as a concept too.

I certainly agree that many women feel they are very special and important, and this may come about as a result of being women/feminine, but I don't think that this is directly related to femininity.

Femininity is also a concept. When you say they are not good mothers, they are not special, they are not attractive, they behave similar to men who get an insult on their masculinity. That is purely my observation, and up to debate.

That's fair. Definitely attacking a woman and saying she is not a good mother would be a huge attack on her femininity. Beauty would probably go into that as well. Per not being special, I think it can be caused by their inflated ego due to being women, but saying they are not special would be more an attack on their identity as a person, than an attack on their femininity. It is reasonable to say their femininity caused that inflated ego in the first place though.

When someone doesn’t like it, they blame you for being misogynistic.

Honestly I think that's less to do with femininity as an identity and more about a kind of trained response, that any criticism of women however slight must automatically be proof of patriarchy and misogyny. Now that you point it out though, I do wonder if this would count as an example of "fragile femininity" in the same way that feminists accuse men of "fragile masculinity" haha.

I probably associate with femininity? Because I just realized it might be about their ideology rather than femininity. I stop here because I need you to correct me

It's all good, I do enjoy these kinds of discussions where we're bouncing ideas off of each other. It helps the both of us clarify and solidify our ideas.

[–]floriandeckard 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

good question, im gonna answer it today. replying now to not forget

[–]manbro7left-wing male advocate 22 points23 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That same person has quite a long history of posting femisandric ideas on those science places, I knew it'd be the exact same person. As expected "women are more empathetic" gets support but for men to be naturally better at something is a sexist crime for science to consider.

A general trend I see in that post is trickle-down equality. It goes like : Crying make men weak because of sexism against women since it's seen as feminine/womenly, therefore it's sexism against women... Ok, what happened there? How did women manage to be the victims of sexism where men are the ones suffering from it?

Oh and they seem to think everything about gender expression is conditioned by society. Isn't that the "gender is a social construct" thing? So they can essentially choose to blame entire biology and wiring of our species to men by broadly calling it (patriarchy) again. Will there be more inventions to blame men or is it over? Toxic masculinity anyone?

I don't know, reading those people with their ideology blind goggles is like a chess game with a toddler. Way, way too many things are so flawed and wrong that I can't bother to argue or explain since the response is going to be fallacies or manipulation.

[–]Jakeybaby125 13 points14 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Trickle down sexism is a bs argument. I could argue the exact opposite. For example, women being told to cover up is sexist against men as it's society saying that men can't control themselves enough around women

[–]thedeets1234 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well...tbh it is.

I know you're saying it's a BS argument but like for real when I hear about Arguments for school codes and how boys will not be able to control themselves I'm sitting here wondering who's raising these kids. There might be a grain of truth to it, just sayin

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was surprised when I looked into psychology just how many psychologists/therapists dislike feminist rhetoric in their practice. Viewing your clients as an oppressor and inherently bad is a good way to even further mentally damage a client, and lose their business.

[–]Nezzarah 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

people are so invested to push their "femininity is seen as negative and not only when perfomed by men"-theory

Everyone knows that human beings almost universally perceive femininity as good—this is a fact of human civilization—and people who continue to put forth such opinions are simply neck deep in cope. They’re just running away from obvious truth.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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