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InvincibleV
[–][deleted] 387 points388 points389 points 4 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link
Men should not play rigged games in crooked casinos.
[–]NathanHollister129 points130 points131 points 4 years ago (65 children) | Copy Link
Knocking a woman up is like betting on black in a casino and then suing them when it comes up red. Be responsible and be an adult. Don't play unless you can pay.
Is it unfair that moms can bail on a kid and dad can't? Yes. Can we change that? No. Can we be responsible and get snipped? Yes
[–]the_nominalist64 points65 points66 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Presex agreements not to pay child support can and should be a thing.
[–]lastlaugh10076 points77 points78 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
also make child support based on the cost to raise a child, not a percent of a man's income
[–]the_nominalist5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, this is important too.
[+]PixieChief-17 points-16 points-15 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Average annual cost of raising a child is $14,000. Average annual child support payment is $5,160. So most men are paying just over one third of the costs of raising a child. Hard to see how basing it on the costs of raising a child would mean men paying less?
[–]lastlaugh10024 points25 points26 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good point, with shared custody child support shouldn't exist since both parents are splitting the costs evenly.
[–]NohoTwoPointOh19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
But the stupid fallacy is that men are paying child support and that's it. The overwhelming majority of men pay child support AND have to financially support the child when they are with us. Even with 50-50 most of the time. The numbers come out far different when you take this into consideration
But even with your numbers (which I assume are taken from the USDA) that is 583 a month for each parent. Granted, most feel that with 50-50, there should be no child support. If the woman accepts the responsibility of having a child (as the man has no overriding power either way), she should be able to cover her half of raising a child. If you believe otherwise, please state your reason(s).
[–]PixieChief0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The statement I replied to said that child support should be calculated on the costs of raising a child instead of on a man’s income. It is difficult to see on the current numbers how this change would result in men paying less in child support. I made zero comment on any other point.
[–]NohoTwoPointOh8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm in agreement with you on the costs of raising a child. Unfortunately, the USDA numbers are skewed to support Title IV-D. If you don't know what Title IV-D is, here is a video explaining the racket. It has nothing to do with the best interests of the child. Nothing. It is a way for states to get funding from the government.
[–]NathanHollister14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
good luck with that in our society
[–]the_nominalist1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If prenups are allowed this should be too. This is a more important issue than father's rights/divorce IMO.
[–]NathanHollister2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Prenups aren't allowed in some places. And in the ones where they are allowed, they are essentially toilet paper- as a judge can toss them anytime for any reason. Feminism killed prenups about 20 years ago.
[–]Sid_Vichous11 points12 points13 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Men pay either way. We pay taxes for programs we aren't even eligible for.
[–]the_nominalist-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
But women pay taxes too.
[–]Sid_Vichous2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, and you're eligible for many programs that men are not.
[–]rejac2182 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Nope. They will never let you decide the rights of a child.
[–]the_nominalist0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's why men have to fight for it to make it a thing. This agreement would occur before sex or conception even happened. There would be no "child".
[–]rejac2180 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What they're saying is when the child is born.. you as the father don't have the right to deny them your support since it was your seed. You can't just come and go...creating kids that need adult support along the way.
[–]Arcosah36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, let me just permanently take away my ability to have a kid real quick. I dont get a say over a womens body, but without more effective Male birth control I dont have much say over having a kid either. I'll give you the same argument we use for women: I consented to sex, not having a child.
[–]NathanHollister31 points32 points33 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
And women will ignore the argument because they are the majority of voters. So, protect yourself or you will be unprotected.
Yes, you should take away your ability to have kids real quick. Why?
1- School and college is run by feminism. Your child will be corrupted
2- The world is fucked up and life sucks. Condemning a sentient being to a lifetime of suffering is morally reprehensible.
3- There are 8 billion people already. Resources are finite. By breeding, you make everyone else's lives worse.
4- You kid will keep you poor for 18 years since they cost about $250k
Kids are just a debit card for a woman to use on you (you are an ATM). Don't give it to them.
[–]TheLastMgtow4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Underated comment.
[+][deleted] 4 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
[removed]
[–]NathanHollister8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link
Because since I'm already here, I can take steps to improve life for everyone- steps like not breeding and making overpopulation worse.
[–]binrobinro0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And I'd like to thank you for that.
[–]MarzMonkey-5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I can take steps to improve life for everyone
This is the same thinking that leads people to have kids (except it's their family and not everyone - which seems a bit grandiose and narcissistic) and yet you are calling for people to get snipped permanently.
[–]NathanHollister3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Except, I KNOW I can do good in the world (because I have and currently am), whereas hypothetical kids will almost certainly amount to nothing, or even worse, end up as a criminal/junkie. Most kids these days grow up without a dad, indoctrinated into feminism and wage slavery, where they slave away for 40 years, and then get Alzheimer's and die.
[–]TheLastMgtow1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think he was just questioning for the sake of it. The truth is mgtow is a breath of fresh air in the world and the more there are the better. We will die alone, we all die alone, but until then every day will be epic and i only follow my law.
Only men without purpose will see their only reason to live in females or kids.
[–]binrobinro-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, and in the end you'll pack up and fly down south
Hide your head in the sand
Just another sad old man
All alone and dying of cancer
[–]NathanHollister0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What? All those things happen anyway no matter what you do. Work in a nursing home for 3 months and then get back to me.
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because life is awesome. And we can enjoy while we are here. Do epic stuff. Only men with lack of purpose, will find their only reason to live must spawn from a vagina.
[–]Pilotman4924 points25 points26 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The entire argument is taken off the table by not engaging in sex. Sexual intercourse is a procreative act, no birthcontrol device is 100% effective against such an act except abstinence.
[–]Arcosah22 points23 points24 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but condoms are floating around 70% and birth control for women is easily 99.9% with an IUD. I have no way to "unload the gun." Its obviously not equal, and of course that's not the fault of women. Nor is it that it's their choice. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that men have so little power over the situation. But the blatant disregard for Male reproductive rights can be a bit disgusting. Were not atms, and I expect at least the same considerations that women get, even if we cant reach the same level of equality.
[–]Jewbillystein11 points12 points13 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Get cut (down there. I’m the private’s!) I did, I’m never gonna have a baby
True. But depo cones pretty close. Norplant even closer. I take them to the doc first.
[–]FishWhisker8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Paper abortion is a potential and viable option
[–]NathanHollister10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
What country do you live in?
[–]FishWhisker0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Sorry for the slow reply. I'm in Canada but currently a politician putting in some major time to get this on a provincial level. Federally I can't see it ever happening.
[–]NathanHollister0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
It will never happen because women are the majority of voters. If you do get it through, you will lose your job and the next guy will repeal it.
[–]FishWhisker0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Women are the majority of population, and the minority for voter turnout. My job is fine, and will be fine.
[–]NathanHollister1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Odd. Here in the US, about 55% of voters are women.
[–]FishWhisker0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
My province last elections both federal and provincial it was around 44% women.
[–]NathanHollister0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Odd
[+][deleted] 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–]NathanHollister0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What countries are those? I'm not aware of any developed nation that does that
[+][deleted] 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Then they realized women are the majority of voters, which means we all know what the real problem is
[–]HelplessItalian0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Amen
[+]daniel13324-7 points-6 points-5 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Idk why some of you advocate getting vasectomies before you even get the chance to pass on your genes. I’m not in favor of all the rigged laws that penalize men who become fathers and allow manipulative and/or abusive women to run free. However....
Biologically-speaking, your only purpose in life is to pass on your genes to the next generation, raise them, and then die.
[–]sourkid252 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Me personally I'd get snipped after my third child
[–]NathanHollister1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Why would I want to reproduce? It doesn't benefit me or anyone else in any measurable way.
[–]daniel13324-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Because you and I both have a biological drive to reproduce. Modern society has done a lot to harm the nuclear family, but it’s also managed to separate the act of sexual intercourse from its main purpose: passing on one’s genes.
Regardless of the current political situation, or the negatives of marriage at the moment, I think if we’re being honest, all of us want to be fathers (and good ones at that) and be able to pass on our genes and family name.
Getting a vasectomy when you’re young seems wrong; it goes against thousands (or millions if you believe in macroevolition) of years of genetic programming.
[–]TheLastMgtow1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Because you and I both have a biological drive to reproduce.
Nonsense, and soy way thinking.
Women have that drive. Men have the opposite drive. Men have the drive to fuck as many women as they can, and stay free. Not a single heterosexual man on earth will deal with 1 female, if he can have 100's without commitment.
Therefore men that have that "drive", are bored with life, and lack purpose. They know there is nothing else going on for them.
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Men were made to thrive. It is women that are programmed to have kids, regardless.
You as a man, evolved to impregnate many women, and keep enjoying your life. So you were not necessarily made to think about having kids, thats a female trait. You were made to make things good for yourself, and thats it. Interestingly, thats what females find attractive. You think thats a coincidence?
No female finds a man attractive that is desperate to have kids and is afraid of being alone.
> Getting a vasectomy when you’re young seems wrong
I agree it is wrong, but not because you wont reproduce. Because 80% of men in history didnt reproduce anyways. It is wrong because it is unnatural, and i dont want anything changing my balls, for much that they say its ok.
Therefore stop stressing about that new age religion of "passing muh genes". Because in reality, you are here to enjoy. And part of the problem is men thinking they must pay, or do anything in particular to please women so they can have the bullshit prize of dealing with shit for the rest of their lives. When obviously you can be free. And in nature what is natural, is if you have kids, they happen naturally, and you shouldnt even be thinking about it, or commit your life to it. You dont see any male of other species cucking because of muh genes.
[–]daniel133240 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think you're over-generalizing here, but also looking too far into the issue; one thing's clear, though: you're assuming that your experiences are universal and are using them to infer quite a lot about the nature of man. And I believe due to your closeness to the situation, you may be making erroneous assertions.
Let me explain. All animals have sex drives. Humans do too. We know women have maternal instincts, but what about men? Men certainly have sex drives; that much is clear. But why are men hesitant to raise another man's child? I'm a biologist (though not specifically an evolutionary biologist), so I'm acutely aware of how humans aren't as different from the rest of the animals/creation as we'd like to think.
Why are we wary of single mothers, and why do we fear being cucked? Could it be that even though we're macho men (who religiously avoid soy products to avoid consuming the phytoestrogens they contain), somewhere deep inside... we care more about our own children than those of another man? Could knowing that our children are in fact our own increase our desire to care for them? If so, that would suggest.... we do care about furthering our own genes.
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
You are smart. So we can have this debate, and eventually you or me will learn something here.
We know women have maternal instincts, but what about men? Men certainly have sex drives; that much is clear. But why are men hesitant to raise another man's child?
Men dont appreciate raising one specific child, even his child. They do it, of course, but often as a sacrifice, for religion and society and the woman they are attached to. But they did not evolve to do it. You can look at all males in nature, and you will see most of them just try to impregnate as many females as they can, in other words their biological drive is sex.
Kids are often annoying as hell. It might sound funny to you that life is some sort of game where you score the most if you have impregnate more women. And it could even be, despite that being stupid, it could even be. But no man prefers to be around kids, if that means losing his freedom, and having to change napkins, and do this and that, lmao, fuck that.
That of course does not mean, that you dont like childreen. Of course men have a paternal instinct. But their paternal instinct goes to his friends too. It goes to his tribe. And even your male rivals, it could be said there is some sort of paternal instinct towards them, because men often fight with honor among themselves. And this is why tribes engage in ritualistic combat.
Have you seen women fighting? They are nasty. They have no rules and no honor.
Honor is almost a biological thing in men. We evolved to have honor, because of hunting practices as a group. But im drifting.
So back to the topic:
But why are men hesitant to raise another man's child?
Like i said, men are hesitant in raising any child, even his own. Like i said before. You did not evolve to know the kids were yours, so even when females got pregnant men were for the most times striving to remain unattached, obviously. There were no paternity tests.
Not very related. But just as an example, in ancient Rome many were the emperors and elite men, that adopted other men into their family. Raised them, and made them heirs to their legacies. How weird is that? It is weird. This is because you as man, you do have paternal instincts. But because you evolved as a hunter you care way more for loyalty, merit and honor. This is why you have male friends, you would fight to death to protect. That you call brothers. Now i ask you, why females dont have that among them? Or they have very little of that. Actually females never die fighting for their men.
Men are tribal and protective for others as a whole, in general. If a man gets cucked, and the child is not his, and he doesnt know it, he will treat that child as if it is his, and will defend that child as it is his. And think man, its not his child, yet, why the hell is he doing all that?
Could it be that even though we're macho men (who religiously avoid soy products to avoid consuming the phytoestrogens they contain), somewhere deep inside... we care more about our own children than those of another man?
This has a lot to do with the female. And how the man perceives himself and society. Most men in their peak levels of testosterone avoid staying attached to any woman. No man wants to be hold back by one particular female, and her child. The situation gets even worse when she is clearly banging other men.
Could knowing that our children are in fact our own increase our desire to care for them? If so, that would suggest.
Of course. But normally, when its not theirs and they dont know, they care as if it is theirs. Lmao. So it looks very psychological thing. In the wild and in nature men are protective towards his own species in general. But also very individualistic. The concept of monogamy, and monotheism is just a coping mechanism for the modern world weak men. You evolved to be free, to thrive, and remain unnattached, and thats what females find attractive.
They dont find attractive tradcucks, or leftists. They find attractive the free primal man, and thats the one they want the genes from, no matter if you marry them, no matter if you provide more for them, that is all irrelevant.
So much so. That in nature if you have your shit together and your resources you are free to walk away anytime. You dont become daddy, or hubby. You are there ready to go anytime. So they have a different perspective. If they want your attention they will have to do something for it on a daily basis, and they resent it otherwise, because otherwise it means you became weak and scarce. But we inverted the natural order of things, and since religion took over and trad in ancient times, men have been subservient to women and society. Im giving you the truth, and you are a science man. Religion was created to protect women and society at your detriment. Men were once free. Our numbers were very few. We had plenty of space and resources and places where to go. You can still be free, it is harder now, but most men will opt to believe they must be slaves and accept the unnatural and unfair contracts of family, monogamy, and slavery. And then wonder why females resent them and cuck them.
[–]daniel133240 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Solid arguments; you definitely have some good points. Fun fact about women only finding primal men attractive, that's true when they're ovulating. But according to a certain study (I don't know which one; this was a documentary I saw several years ago), once they become pregnant, they find less masculine men more attractive.
So if the results are to be believed, they're literally programmed to cuck men.
And I think a lot of the paternal instinct has to do with honor. Women don't really have it (they say they do, but I've never seen altruism among women; they're super competitive and can be vicious). Because society respects (or at least used to respect) good fathers, men step up the the plate.
Society couldn't really function if all men stayed wild, but you've convinced me. Some of it's nature, but much of it is societal. And the majority of it doesn't benefit men.
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Fun fact about women only finding primal men attractive, that's true when they're ovulating. But according to a certain study (I don't know which one; this was a documentary I saw several years ago), once they become pregnant, they find less masculine men more attractive.
Are you sure about this? The source of this claim? I dont know man. I like to consider every possibility, but that is highly unlikely.
It seems the truth would be more close to: They get the submissive betas, although they always would rather have the alphas. But when they are ovulating they cant resist an alpha, and will go out of their way. You see? This is very different.
And you have to also understand that the concept of masculinity in modern times is very misunderstood. Masculinity is basically mgtow. Its basically doing whatever the fuck you want to do, despite what the bitches want and say. Plenty of "masculine" men, that inject themselves with steroids to look even more masculine because in reality deep inside they are weak and pussies that need the aproval and admiration of others. See? The same for tradcucks, who love to display their image of masculine, and strong, but they are very subservient to society and women. And there is nothing more feminine and passive than collectivism, and sacrificing yourself for society and others agendas.
So i would say. I general, females in modern times, are also very confused. They need resources that once were free and abundant in nature, and since they suck at work and violence their best way in history and in most places in the world today still, is obtaining it through a man. So yes, as a survival mechanism, they will try to first secure a beta, but what they really wanted was to be able to choose from within the free men.
A lot of mgtows have their views intoxicated by their perception of history. Try to detach yourself from events in history, and judge men and women as animals. You have to also understand how the world was before we built cities, and how we evolved to live, what we use to eat (raw meat) and so on.
They are made to select the best of men. Not necessarily cuck them. But due to the world's situation right now, they rather do that.
We have 7 billion people in the world. We are living in cities man. It is not easy for men, but its not piece of cake for most women too. They are weak, and cant compete physically or intelectually most of the male population. They want to select the best of men, but they must also make sure they survive. Not whiteknighting, its just from their perspective, it is what it is.
So in the free primal world. They would choose between the strongest, more resourcefull men, that were also attractive (easy, if all you do is hunting), and displayed the traits of men that are unnattached and can leave any time.
By choosing, i dont mean they would stay with them in your degenerate tradcuck marriage, where a man is a slave. No way. They would choose them, sexually only. The man was always free to leave, and was never obliged or expected to provide, however he did help, but not in a commited way. It was more like a "pay as you go", where the female was actually the one pursuing the man, this is so obvious, i dont know why men cant see it.
In every species of predators, the female seeks the strongest and best male from within the best males. The only difference, brother, is that in those conditions men dont pay taxes, and there is no daddy government cucking men. Basically its totally different, and you can see why.
Hypergamy in the context of society today, meaning with overpopulation, and overcrowding. Females can use slave beta men, government, and then they have the men they supposedly want, or at least the closest thing they can get to what is the free alpha men of the primal times. Sometimes that translates into the criminal or the thug, because the criminal might be a bad man, but he is not domesticated, and he is not submissive to the system, and therefore her child will have better chances of escaping slavery, that is dead end.
If there are only beta men, they will still choose the best of the beta men. If there are all alpha men, and they cant even tell who is the best, they will push for a contest, sometimes even a fight (not necessarily violent), to see who is actually the best man. And again, this is nature, nothing wrong with it. The only thing wrong would be, if we taxed the losers anyways of that contest anyways, or force them to contribute to that. Nature should always run its course, but men as part of nature should be free, and should not be constrained by artificial laws.
Women don't really have it (they say they do, but I've never seen altruism among women; they're super competitive and can be vicious)
No. They dont have honor. They have virtue signalling. And they have social awareness. Men will fight against the odds, speak unconvenient truths and lose their lives because of it. Females dont do that. Females learn about their surroundings and alter themselves in order to survive. Females are selfpreserving, men were made to risk themselves just for the lulz.
Because society respects (or at least used to respect) good fathers, men step up the the plate.
This is a lot of the trad conditioning that a lot of men in this sub because of how much they have been hurt, they cant resist. Its hard to explain to them, that religion and traditional societies respect for subservient family men is forced and artificial. It was put in place, so to keep men believing the bluepill collectively. If the truth is told to them, they will not advocate for tradcuck, they will advocate for total freedom. And guess what happens if they do, women will have no providers, and men will use them only for sex. That would reset the world to the natural order. But we could not afford that right now, because we have nukes and too many numbers.
And society is too ingrained in its hierarchies and pecking orders, and simply for that to happen there would be many civil wars.
We ultimately cant detox most men from tradcuck or even worse leftism, because they are so addicted and dependent on the system, on the food of the system, on the entertainment, on women, their society and their social needs. They dont understand that those are all addictions, that we use to not need to thrive. They cant even grasp the downfall of the same system that treats them like slaves, because they havent seen anything else. So they will be easy cannon fodder for those that have true power, both the leftists and the right wingers will fight each other endlessly, and will never realize the truth.
Society couldn't really function if all men stayed wild, but you've convinced me.
Society doesnt care about you. The roots of society are wrong. It assumes men are slaves, because most men are too weak to have standards. We wouldnt have a society, but you would have a place to go. "Show me what you value more than your freedom and I'll show you the tool of your enslavement". If your comfort in civilization is more valuable than your freedom, than you are a slave, no matter how you put it. Interestingly enough, the power of men to walk away from society is what keeps societies good, the same applies to relationships with women.
I dont hate technology. I love technology. But i dont think bread and circus are worth your slavery and freedom. We could have this tech and still have the option to walk out. Society is made in such a way, that men not only cant fight it, they need it, and will defend it, because there is no where to go.
We know well, that in the past things were not like that. That even if societies became gynocentric, they were kept in check by the power of men to leave them behind to rot. And that is why city walls were invented, to control who leaves and who goes out.
[–]heal_thyself1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think if we’re being honest, all of us want to be fathers (and good ones at that) and be able to pass on our genes and family name.
No. I don't. I don't want a kid. I got nieces and nephews, I know how annoying kids are. I don't want any.
Nah, there are lots of guys who don't want kids. We prefer to live free and do as we please with our time and money.
[–]TheLastMgtow0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Nonsense. The purpose of life of a man is not to reproduce. Its to thrive.
Most men have sex for the sake of it. Men dont naturally have baby rabies. We are just here to enjoy, until...until maybe you get trapped.
Dont really know why would men want to have kids, if his life is awesome. Maybe you are masochist and like stress and bullshit in your life.
I have way too much epic stuff i want to do. Being around a woman and her kids, its not one of them.
The "Passing your genes" tm as been debunked as pseudoscience.
After a nuclear holocaust only roaches survive. So only roaches "pass on their genes", after that. Are they the fittest? Nonsense. Your genes will disappear regardless, if the environment and nature wants so, for much women that you fuck. Darwinism is more of a belief system than actual science.
You were made to thrive, and do epic shit. Thats what makes you happy. Sex and impregnating women are natural outcomes of thriving, however, they dont happen in nature because you pay taxes and have a good job.
Sex is ultimately the way nature deceive us to reproduce. We are lucky to live in these times to understand these things, and what do we have? Morons who always want the opposite.
It is stupid to even think about having kids. To plan them is even more unnatural. And to seek a female, and deal with her bullshit, just because you are afraid of dying alone, then thats retarded.
Oh but "muh genes".
[–]daniel133241 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Agreed, but I'm saying that subconsciously, most men have a biological drive to reproduce. I'm not saying that finding a NAWALT is likely or even possible; all I'm saying is getting a vasectomy at the age of 25 is like committing bloodline suicide. Regardless of whether or not you ever have kids, losing the option to have kids is a scary thought.
Maybe I'm more of a traditionalist who'd rather remain celibate than have meaningless sex. If I meet a girl worth marrying, I'll have a kid. But if I don't (and that's a very likely possiblility these days), I'll just do all the other cool shit men like to do. Getting snipped isn't required to do any of the things you listed aside from bedding random women for no good reason other than sex drive.
Agreed, but I'm saying that subconsciously, most men have a biological drive to reproduce.
I dont think so man. I think we have the biological drive to have sex. When you see a female you want to bang, you are not thinking about having kids. You are thinking about banging her. Thats it.
I'm not saying that finding a NAWALT is likely or even possible
It is possible. Third world countries are full of nawalts. So go man, get your nawalt. Unless you want the "find the nawalt challenge in a feminist shithole". The truth is after you find your nawalt, you will realize, you were happy all along alone, and you didnt exactly want that. But go ahead. You will get bored fast.
all I'm saying is getting a vasectomy at the age of 25 is like committing bloodline suicide.
It is. But unless i have my castle, my army, and the Duke of Normandy is at war with me, then i guess the bloodline is useless. It is actually a nuissance, because your bastard might come for your holdings. Lmao.
But i get what you are saying man. If you have lots of money, and you built stuff, then it feels good to know someone will inherit your works. And best if it is your blood. And on that, absolutely you are right. But thats not biological at all, that is very rational thing to do. And dude if thats your thing go for it. Create your legacy. But dont do it in the west.
And dont say thats a biological need, or whatever. I dont know any young man who wants to have kids at their peak T levels. Its always that dude that is way past his prime, doesnt know what else to do, and wants to give it a shot.
Regardless of whether or not you ever have kids, losing the option to have kids is a scary thought.
It is not. You sound very confused man. Just like i use to be. Losing your health is scary. Losing a leg so now you cant play your favourite sport, thats scary. Losing the eventual possibility of having kids is not a problem, and it was the reality of most men in history. Even the ones that reproduced, they were never sure it was theirs. You literally evolved to never know the kids were yours. Read it again. You evolved to not really care that much, because you didnt even know it was yours dude.
Maybe I'm more of a traditionalist who'd rather remain celibate than have meaningless sex.
Thats fine. Im the opposite. I never saw any reason to commit. Relationships are boring. Family life is boring as fuck. But like i said. If thats your thing, then go for it, just avoid the laws and the west, and you will be fine.
I dont know if i could be a mgtow before experiencing all the females i experienced. Because i would maybe be questioning what if. You know... But one thing im sure, having a family and kids is not a problem. Because thats all i want to avoid.
Getting snipped isn't required to do any of the things you listed aside from bedding random women for no good reason other than sex drive.
And sex drive is the only thing keeping men around women anyways. What do you think we want? To listen to their bullshit? Dont get snipped man. We never know if one day they will be paying us millions for just impregnating these women after the next war or mouse utopia.
[–]Gemjab0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I have a biological drive to do what I want and not reproduce and also you want to get married? Because if you do you might be delusional.
[–]daniel133240 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Eh, maybe. I haven't really decided yet. 🤷♂️
[–]frankmarlowe0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Biologically speaking, all organisms do that, yes. Yet we are a specific mutation that can understand it's own existence and willingly fight/ignore our instincts. And that allows us to redefine our purpose and meaning in life.
If you really think that reproduction the only possible reason for living then you've been lied to for I dunno how long. And it's not your fault.
Not everyone gets to reproduce and honestly not everyone should. We get shoveled the "family is happiness" crap from day 1. And for some it works. But most, it doesn't. It just chains us to a lifetime of indentured servitude, debt, and it exhausts us irrevocably. And for what? A "World's Greatest Dad" mug? Trophies your offspring won you get to live vicariously through? And thats the best case, assuming your chosen partner doesn't get bored or can't find a better option.
I was raised tradcon, and still hold a few tradcon ideals, but goddamn if beer, pizza and video games arent infinitely preferable to 90 hour workweeks for next to nothing in terms of payoff.
[–]Patricijaobjectdude15 points16 points17 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You can literally masturbate into a tissue in your room, throw it away in the trash a girl can break into your room when you're not there, she can take the tissue out of the trash, shove it in her cunt, impregnate herself, and according to the law, it's 100% your fault. The moment cum leaves the tip of your cock, it is considered your gift to the external universe outside your body or some shit. This includes PE or cumming from wet dreams or even forced ejaculation.
Oh and in come cases, you don't own the sperm in your own body in some states. There's been cases where ex girlfriends forced their ex boyfriends to impregnate them. They had the right to their ex's sperm because a woman's will to create life is more important than a man's selfish will to not create life.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Where?
[–]Kinalace4200 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Dude you are mentally fucking retarded. Nobody has ever legally been forced to impregnate someone because that would be prostitution and rape. Nobody has gotten pregnant from cum on a fucking tissue because it's impossible. Sperm dies immediately when it is exposed to oxygen dumbass. Artificial insemination is a very intricate and delicate procedure. You're either a kid who has no idea how things work or you're a complete moron.
[–]Patricijaobjectdude1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Woah... who pissed in your cereal this morning?
[–][deleted] 179 points180 points181 points 4 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
Dave Chappelle made this comment in his newest stand-up show. Something along the lines of: as men, we have to accept that women get the final say in abortion, it's their body and their choice. However, in that same respect, the man shouldn't be liable to support that child either if she decides to keep it and he didn't want to.
They don't only want full choice on abortion, they want to also be able to use it as a weapon like they already do with kids and child support or divorce and alimony.
[–]kriskros1882 points83 points84 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
His latest gig is more reality check than comedy. And stand up is the only way to make some of these points any more.
As another bro said, found myself agreeing with him more than laughing. Maybe it’s the red lens. We’re all fcked!
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Red lens?
[–]ForeverTheUnderdog3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Looking through life with a red pill lens.
Are you familiar with The Red Pill?
[–][deleted] 59 points60 points61 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
and look at the THOTs reaction when he says it and compare it to her first 2 reactions to the 3 part joke. (the one in the front who is caked up to the gills.) She sums up pretty much everything.
[–]ncarolina6642 points43 points44 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, that was a really good red pilled show. I thought it wasn't as laugh out loud funny as some of this past stuff, but he threw in some real life knowledge that wasn't PC and people on the left flew off the handle and couldn't deal with it. Even more funny since he isn't exactly a right leaning guy at all.
Women want it all, get it and still aren't fucking happy. Guys need to learn this knowledge when they are young so woman can't trap them into this money squeezing vice they have with marriage and child support. It's total BS. Oh, and you can throw in women not required to sign up for the draft, getting alimony (I thought they were equal?) and child support (why if custody's were all 50/50 should that even be a thing)?
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I felt the same way about it. I didn't find myself laughing a lot but it was a good reflection on how broken society is right now.
I've tried a few times to educate fellow young men but a lot of them just can't bring themselves to accept it which is a shame. They fall in to that safety net of 'not all women' to make themselves hopeful and it's hard to get them out of that bubble. Women are really good at playing to what a man wants in order to get what she wants and unless you're red-pilled you won't see the red flags.
[–]EnslavedOpethFan05310 points11 points12 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Some people just aren't cut out for the truth. It doesn't matter how much evidence you show them or how many times they get fucked over, they'll just continue to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend everything is fine and that it's just "their bad luck" or "I always choose the wrong one". They'll blame themselves for something they have no control over and they'll continue to do so until the day they die. It's just how it is.
A young co-worker of mine was dating a single mother with a 6 month old. I told him to not get serious with her because it'll end eventually. I also told him to not get attached to her kid because when the time comes it will make it worse when she leaves. He didn't listen and she broke his heart like I knew she would. He said to me after the fact: I should've listened to you. I'm not gonna date single mothers anymore.
He's dating another single mother right now and is even more attached to her kid than he was to the other one.
Some people just don't want to learn.
[–]the-unflattering-60 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I'm really curious - why did you think the single mother was going to leave?
[–]EnslavedOpethFan0531 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Hypergamy
[–]the-unflattering-60 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That's a great point. So she left for a guy with more money.
[–]EnslavedOpethFan0531 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm not sure if it was a guy with more money but it most likely was seeing as my co-worker doesn't make much money lol. He was suspecting she was cheating on him. She also treated him like garbage and he took it like a champ. He's a beta but thinks he's an alpha. He's very weak around women and that's because of the way he was raised.
[–]the-unflattering-60 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A lot of people learn, eventually. I myself cared too much about what people thought until pretty recently.
[–]basedmillennial954 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They fall in to that safety net of 'not all women' to make themselves hopeful and it's hard to get them out of that bubble.
My analogy is always "I've poisoned 50% of the skittles in this bowl, here try some. Oh what's that 'no' well then you must hate skittles!"
[–]NohoTwoPointOh4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The leading feminist organizations have fought tooth and fucking nail against ANY sort of equality in parenting. Make no mistake. For them, it is about power. Despite every study and stat showing the perils of children without equal fathering, the children are nothing more than a bargaining chip to them.
[–]naya-nakli-khata4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Do you have any youtube link for this?
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think it's only on Netflix right now.
[–]KingKookus3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you can kill them then I should at least be able to abandon them.
[–]Caseman5501 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Don’t ya love it when abortion becomes weaponized?
The whole issue is weaponized.
[–]BigGuysBlitz43 points44 points45 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
The day is coming when embryo removal alive will be possible and then we will finally have a say in birth decisions. You want the child and she wants and abortion. Take the embryo and incubate it, make her pay fucking years of child support.
Equality at its finest will then be upon us.
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sadly that will never happen
[–]ODuffer9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The day is coming when male contraception will be a reality. That's equality.
[–]kragshot1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It won't happen because you can't force a surgical procedure on anyone.
[–]BigGuysBlitz2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I am saying that this would be done in lieu of an abortion that was chosen by the woman, when the man wishes to have the child. She is ejecting the embryo/fetus anyway, he is just collecting his offspring and finishing the birthing process without her involvement, but his choice.
[–]kragshot0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You would have to find a clinic that would be willing to do that kind of a procedure where they would claim to do an actual abortion while actually doing a removal with intent to transfer to an artiwomb.
But watch what happens when it gets out that this is actually happening....
[–]mecpaw25 points26 points27 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think this is reason#1 why we are MGTOW.
[–]simplisticallysimple24 points25 points26 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hell. I still don't mind this kind of inequality if indeed the money was solely for the child and the mother can't touch one cent.
But no. Child support isn't audited.
She can spend it on makeup and alcohol instead of diapers and baby formula, and I'll still go to jail if I refuse to pay up.
Say it with me: child support is just another word for alimony.
[–]NohoTwoPointOh6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Right now, it has fuck all to do with the child and everything to do with a revenue source for the state. Watch and learn.
[–]dourdan12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
so true.
My niece got knocked up by an uber chad (she was one of 3 baby-mamas under the age of 17) and after realizing that her options were:
A. go after him for money and risk having to give him visitation
or B. raise the baby without his money and get his parental rights terminated
she chose B.
She graduated high school at 16 while her parents raised the baby. Now she lives a few states away, in a nice house, with her nursing degree (her kid is about to start kindergarten).
Women can make the smart choice
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
she made the biggest mistake in her life choosing b, now she will have a low paying job and will be a single mother.
[–]HmoobMikah3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
she made the biggest mistake in her life choosing b
I disagree. Her biggest mistake was going after giga chad, and having sex with him. Both A and B resulted in being a single mother. Whether in the end she became a nurse or not, she is still a single mother in both scenarios.
Should've gone with awkward beta billy who was going to be a computer tech making bank, but instead chose giga chad with no prospects. But we all know she chose him because he gave her the tingles.
[–]NohoTwoPointOh-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Smart choice, eh? Not for the child.
[–]lizard4506 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why do women not have the obligation to raise their own child?
[–]NohoTwoPointOh9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Her body, her choice.
Your money, her choice.
[–]MisterioBerlin6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
double standards
[–]MSCSDDP4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
When are we men going to learn that the little sploosh coming out the end of our dicks is incredibly valuable. It's at least worth $250K in childcare or more is spousal support is required.
Men are the prize - not women.
[–]flightrescue13 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Can’t stress enough how important it is to bag it up, boys. You don’t want a kid? Pullin out ain’t good enough. Bring your own condoms, don’t use one she has given you.
And dispose of your condoms OFFSITE. Tie that bitch in a knot after you bust and treat it like a nuclear weapon. Throw it away where she cannot get to it. To the common dependapotamus, your seed is a lottery ticket. Considering that most men pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in child support, she has every incentive to find it and use it.
[–]CalamityLeo2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is the worst type of blackmail, it fucks up the man which might do a self-checkout on life, and the kid involved since the "mother" will emotionally abuse the kid.... sick days we live in
[–]AstaSilva3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Chappelle?
[–]Flyb0mb2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Dave Chappelle isa comedian that recently had a show on netflix. He addresses this issue and the reactions are hilarious.
[–]ohyoureligious1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
See, and I’m over here wanting door number one ever since like elementary school...
[–]SeriousVersion6661 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What if I don't agree with all three?
[–]catlover38001 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Idk if I’m allowed to post here as a woman but I 100% agree that men should not be obligated to support a child they didn’t want if the mother decides to keep it and the man doesn’t want it. It’s absolutely ridiculous and completely unfair that women are able to trap men with babies like this :/
[–]Jewbillystein0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Dave Chappell made a great joke about this in his recent special!
[–]baconbacon6660 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's fun because is true.
[–]HNutz0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Pretty much.
[–]themgtowmonkeywrench0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I got a baseball bat. Cavemen had a club. Now I understand. ✌
[–]HotCupOfSexyMe0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In i8. Ad
[–]Kinalace4200 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If you didn't want a baby you should of wore a condom. It's that simple. If you have a baby you should pay for half the expenses and if she has an abortion you should pay for half the expenses. It is the woman's body that goes through all the agony to have the child and abortions are also painful both mentally and physically. So it's always way worse for her I assure you. Saying "if I don't get my way I'm not helping" is childish and stupid. You helped make that baby you have to pay for half either way.
[–]InvincibleV[S] 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its also the woman's obligation to demand a condom to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. If she did not ask for it then she has 50% of the blame for the unwanted pregnancy. Dont just blame the man for everything.
[–]thisghosthouse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not really. She can choose not to take the obligation. He can't.
A condom can fail. Any BC can, in fact.
Whether or not both are ready to take on a child is a decision that should happen mutually. If that is not possible, the woman needs to recognize that the decision to birth the child is hers alone, and thus she has to accept the consequences of her choice.
[–]FickleAsFuuu0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think advocating for a Male IUD is a better option.
[–]Spagoott0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
IF YOU DIDN'T???? WANT???? A CHILD WHY??? DID YOU EVEN RISK????? HAVING ONE???
seriously tho. be responsible for what you do.
[–]thisghosthouse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Because sex drive is natural?
[–]Spagoott-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
use condoms?
[–]thisghosthouse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
BC is not perfect...
[–]Spagoott-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
it's 2020, we take responsibility for our actions and don't cum in random people if we don't want kids. Also, vasectomy is a thing.
[–]thisghosthouse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Any BC is not perfect. Vasectomy is no exception.
EDIT: Also, the responsibility aspect goes both ways... Don't have kids if you can't support them on your own. Because it is either both our choice together, or your choice and yours alone.
Responsibility and expecting someone's support for whatever choice you make don't go hand in hand.
[–]Spagoott-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't get your logic. would you choose risky sex over safe sex because you want it to be "perfect"?
I agree with the second part tho. If a girl forces a dude to have children with her, that's basically rape. But if he did have consensual, unprotected sex with her, then they should both support the child imo
[–]thisghosthouse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What don't you get?
I am not talking about unprotected sex. I am talking about failing contraception.
The only non-permanent measure by which a man can avoid becoming a father himself is a condom. Condoms have a Pearl Index of about 12. Every year, 12 out of 100 men only using condoms become parents.
Vasectomy is the only other available option, but its permanent. Even then, it's Pearl-Index is at 0.1-1...
If contraception fails, the man is in a binding. He has to accept the decision of the woman.
He obviously has no say in the body right of the woman, and rightfully so.
Still, he is "forced" to accept her decision and carry her and her child financially. That is not okay.
The decision should ideally be made in agreement of both parties.
[–]Spagoott-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You're damn good at changing topics. My comment was about when people abandon children that they don't want because they're too stupid to think before fucking. Sex drive is not an excuse to not take care of your crotch goblins. Before having sex you should be (and probably are) aware of what you're doing and that it could result in you becoming a parent.
Answering your question, the part I don't understand is that you won't use condoms because the sex won't be perfect. Sex only lasts a couple of minutes, while children will (probably) last your whole life.
More than changing topics, I think we're talking over each other's heads.
Having sex is a basic human need. If you don't have sex once in a while, it's gonna hurt your physical and mental health.
Nowhere did I say I wouldn't use condoms. I do. It's the responsible thing to do when you don't want kids to use protection, but it is still not a 100% guarantee you won't have kids.
The statement where I said "BC is not perfect", I meant "perfectly safe" in regards to preventing pregnancy.
I prefer to have my partner clear on that I have no interest in becoming a parent, something I do have my personal reasons for.
And to make sure that in case anything happens, we are going to find a mutual agreement on what to do. Because I believe that to be the responsible option.
Women always have the choice to simply not get the child. (In fact, in Germany, where I live, 98% of abortions are a result of them not wanting the child for whatever reason (most often social, or individual reasons. - Only 2% are a result of criminological or medicinical indication)
I, as a man, don't have a say in this nor can I make this choice - yet I would be facing obligations resulting from her choice.
This is a well and good, as long as there is a basis of trust - but for what reason would I have to pay a woman that egoistically decides to birth her child without, e.g. even asking for my opinion?
If a woman decides that it is her choice alone, and to disregard the father, she should be the one and only person to pay.
[–]foxyfree-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
VASECTOMY. Seriously this whole so-called debate is irritating. If you don’t want to pay for a child don’t even risk having one. If you do want one, find a woman who wants one too.
Be aware vasectomies are not 100% safe.
[–]Cuddlebunzzz128-5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Don't have sex until you're ready for kids, or get vasectomized if you don't want kids. Quit complaining that life isn't fair and others are screwing you over, when all you have to do is control your urges and/or get a simple medical procedure to avoid this situation completely.
[–]man-i-hate-eggs2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is a lot of people who wants children but fell with the wrong women
[–]New_Katipunan2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
And yet this logic doesn't apply to women, does it?
This. 95% percent of abortions are happening because the mother does not want the kids.
[–]Starkemis-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lmao, they should rename this sub IncelPartII
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