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[–]subgamer9034 points35 points36 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
I know there's some communists and socialists around here, so let me tell you why I think socialism/communism is bullshit and a terrible ideology now that I have more time. (this is gonna be long)
One of the things that socialists seem to always gloss over is the value of risk and of skill in business, and how that can advance society.
What I mean is, Marx argued that if a worker works for $15 an hour in a factory for example, but the business owner makes $30 of profit from that hour of labor, that isn't fair because without the laborer's work the owner wouldn't make anything, so the laborer should be paid exactly what his worth is which is the actual value of that labor. But that's an incredibly simplistic way to look at it because it's completely ignoring a lot of things.
First of all, that business owner took a risk in creating that business. They put a money investment down and could have lost everything if the business failed. Taking that risk is worth something, and the fact that he took it and created that business means more jobs, which is better for society. The other thing is that the owner has to be very skilled in business and making deals on top of having the balls to take risk. Shouldn't someone with those kinds of skills and balls be paid more than a factory worker who does the same repetitive tasks with his hands over and over? I say absolutely yes.
Now, I know some communists might say why don't we just have no such thing as business other than that which is controlled by the government, which is then controlled by the people for the benefit of society, but that's a bad idea for many reasons.
First off, it's human nature to be more motivated to do something if there's a financial reward. That's just reality, and that's why I say communists are naive about human nature because they pretend like we can all be some kind of robots working in a utopia without caring about money. LOL. The reality is that because people are more motivated when there's money to be made they have more motivation to do things like start businesses, do medical research, create new inventions and technologies, and a whole host of other things that make society better.
If someone creates a cure for cancer only because they wanted to be a billionaire, is that a bad thing? You might say it's wrong to be greedy, but at the end of the day, there's now a cure for cancer and society is better for it.
Greed is a good thing for society as long as it's kept from going too far
In a communist society, research and new inventions are much slower to happen. Government scientists don't work as efficiently as those working for corporations. Governments in general tend to be inefficient and involve lots of red tape and useless paperwork before getting anything done. This is true both in theory and in the real world. We've seen communist societies lag behind other nations in development time and time again, and that's why I cringe when people say "but the Soviet Union wasn't true communism!". The problem isn't that it wasn't true communism, it's that communism doesn't foster quick advancement and development in society.
The other issue with trusting the government to run industry on top of being inefficient is that's incredibly naive to believe that the people at the top of the government would be acting in the people's best interests. The people who get into positions of power are ALWAYS the ones who are the most obsessed with power. People like Stalin and Mao and Kim-jong Il. That's another fact of human nature that communists seem to conveniently ignore. If you give those types of people control over all of industry in a modern industrialized society, you'd be giving even less people even MORE power than under the current capitalist system. And exponentially so.
The last thing I want to mention is the way that communists trick the masses into believing in this shit. The only way a communist revolution can happen is if a majority of people are on board with it. But how the hell do you get like 70% or more of people in society to agree on something when people are always so divided over the smallest issues? Easy, all societies in the world are made up mostly of poor and lower middle class workers, so all you have to do is convince those workers that thy're getting a raw deal, and that they should be paid more because "look how rich your bosses are." So ironically you're basically bribing them with money while claiming communists don't care about money. And most of them go along with it because life is hard for them, and they're not very educated and basically just a bunch of sheep and it sounds good to them.
And the biggest problem with any utopian society is what happens when some of the people don't agree with the utopian ideals or don't want to be a part of it? Well, I guess those people have to be re-educated, and we all know how that turns out.
TLDR: Communism is the naive belief that putting all industry in the hands of the government would benefit the people more than working for a company because we all know that governments always do what's best for the people and power never corrupts anyone, as well as the naive belief that a communist society would advance just as fast or faster than a capitalist one, because people totally aren't motivated by money, and that everyone wants to live in a utopia where all people get paid barely enough to live regardless of how skilled, smart, or courageous they are. And socialism is the "light" version of that. Just get a job you lazy fucks.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Mine's gonna be short.
Communists worked my ancestors to death in Gulag's in Siberia either chopping down trees, or dying on projects like The Road of Bones (R504 Kolyma Highway): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R504_Kolyma_Highway
[–]WikiTextBot6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
R504 Kolyma Highway
The R504 Kolyma Highway (Russian: Федеральная автомобильная дорога «Колыма», "Federal Automobile Highway 'Kolyma'"), part of the M56 route, is a road through the Russian Far East. It connects Magadan with the town of Nizhny Bestyakh, located on the eastern bank of Lena River opposite Yakutsk. At Nizhny Bestyakh the Kolyma Highway connects to the Lena Highway.
The Kolyma Highway is also known as the Road of Bones, because the skeletons of the forced laborers who died during its construction were used in many of its foundations.
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[–]Average_Scrub6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
"Shouldn't someone with those kinds of skills and balls be paid more than a factory worker who does the same repetitive tasks with his hands over and over?"
This kind of work is approaching extinction as fast as a woman in her thirties heading towards the wall. Capitalism will have to adapt to the growing automation of production tasks, by which most of the work force will be laid off. "Get a job you lazy fucks" will not be an answer.
I agree that one needs motivation to innovate and take risks, but it isn't always driven by greed nor strict self-interest. There are many innovations and discoveries that simply were given to the world based on altruism.
"Soviet Union wasn't true communism."
Arguably, there was only one point in time in which there was communism: our very ancestors, the ones who discovered fire and lived nomad lives. Perhaps, today, you can find some little communities living under communist principles as well. Other than that, there was never such a thing. Soviet Union was a marxist-leninist state which aimed at reaching communism - with terrible results, in my opinion.
"Greed is a good thing for society as long as it's kept from going too far."
Has it gone too far?, that is the question.
[–]subgamer900 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You bring up a good point about automation, and I think once all manual labor has been replaced with robots I might be open to the idea of a minimal universal basic income for people, and/or some sort of government created jobs to keep people working and supplement the economy. Once AI is smart enough to replace non-manual labor though, we've got bigger problems. Like AI destroying humanity.
And you are right that many things have been created and discovered throughout history without much personal gain, but there's no denying that technological progress sped up exponentially because of the industrial revolution. Capitalism is efficient because efficiency makes money.
I don't think any modern industrialized nation can be converted to communism without society breaking down and regressing in a big way. The only way it could is as a totalitarian state, and such a state would lag behind in economy and technological advancement on the world stage, as we've seen with every nation that has claimed to be Communist in the past. The only way the true idealistic communism is realistic is in a small village or tribe. I expanded a lot more on these ideas in my reply to the other poster in this thread.
As far as whether greed has gone too far, in some ways it has like when the bankers made risky investments with too much money around 2008 and crashed the economy. But CEOs and the like get paid that highly for a reason, and hating them for being rich while the workers are poor is kind of silly when you consider their expertise in business and what they provide to the company. And in the US and most other developed nations, workers have many rights like minimum wage laws, maximum hours they can be made to work and overtime for extra hours, minimum age to be allowed to work, can't be discriminated against based on race, nationality, etc. And as long as workers have these kinds of basic rights in a capitalist society, then I think it's an acceptable system for anyone who puts in the effort while being the most efficient for humanity's advancement.
[–]weaklion1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The banker stuff is being addressed by Bitcoin.
One thing you absolutely want if you do UBI is do put a damper/tax on reproduction. And maybe something like "very soft eugenics", paying people a lump sum for being sterilized.
I hate feminism as much as the next guy, but one thing it did was to keep population in the west in check. With the downside of making it weak against takeover from foreign archaic value systems that would mean eventual doom as well.
But if you talk about "what to do" - there absolutely needs to be a balance here. It is a core resource question. You can't just feed people and encourage them to reproduce like rabbits.
[–]Average_Scrub0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If you said that banker stuff is being address by cryptocurrencies, I would have agreed. Bitcoin has huge scalability problems.
You can't just feed people and encourage them to reproduce like rabbits.
The birth rate in the most developed countries disproves your assertion. We are seeing an increasing problem of ageing populations among these countries, where most people live well above poverty line. I recommend you to read about an experimentation made in the mid 20th century on rats ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink ) that can to some extent be applied to what's happening in highly industrialized countries.
[–]WikiTextBot0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Behavioral sink
The ethologist John B. Calhoun coined the term "behavioral sink" to describe the collapse in behavior which resulted from overcrowding. Over a number of years, Calhoun conducted over-population experiments on Norway rats (in 1958–1962) and mice (in 1968–1972). Calhoun coined the term "behavioral sink" in his February 1, 1962 report in an article titled Population Density and Social Pathology in the Scientific American weekly newspaper on the rat experiment. Calhoun's work became used as an animal model of societal collapse, and his study has become a touchstone of urban sociology and psychology in general.
[–]weaklion0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
BTC's scaling problems have been social and are now economical.
Bitcoin Cash addresses those sufficiently. But people around here don't like me saying that. Take it as meaning cryptos in the more general sense.
I recommend you to read about an experimentation made in the mid 20th century on rats
The Calhoun experiment. Yes, I am aware of that. I contest the idea that it transfers 1:1 to humans, especially since we fucked around with feminism and the pill.
[+][deleted] 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–]subgamer901 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
But this idea of workers controlling the means of production and not government can never last long term. Wherever there's a vacuum of power, some government will emerge because people who are obsessed with power will find their way to the top somehow. It's just human nature. And the fact is that people want to be led. Even among so-called anarchists, I guarantee some charismatic leader would emerge, raise an army and take over and you would essentially end up with a military dictatorship.
Your idealized communism only works in small villages and tribes. You're right in saying that humans lived that way for a long time, but society was also relatively un-developed back then. In modern industrialized societies there is way too much power and wealth to be had for an entire nation to simply be a bunch of communal people working together with no one really in power. Someone would either take it by force or someone from the inside would manipulate the people to gain power for themselves.
And the fact is that while many things were invented and discovered throughout history without direct profit, there's no denying that technological advancement took off at lightning speed because of the industrial revolution. So even if such an idealized society could be maintained in the modern world and on a large scale, I still say it wouldn't be as efficient at advancing humanity as a capitalist one, and in fact would probably regress a lot technologically. And let's be real, the average worker has no idea how to run a large scale business and all the logistics involved etc.
Do you honestly think if the USA for example were to become communist, that Microsoft, Google, car manufacturers, airlines etc. could operate just as quickly and efficiently as they do right now? I mean, those CEOs that socialists love to hate are actually paid that much for a reason. For the most part it's because they know what they're doing when it comes to running a business of that size. But in communism these companies would be taken over by collectives of workers, and those collectives would make the decisions. And do you honestly think these collectives would be better at managing the business than the old highly paid managers? Hell no. If they were then companies would be making decisions that way already instead of using high paid executives. The companies would collapse and either stop operating or operate at a much slower pace and not produce as many goods and services. Therefore society would regress or stay stagnant.
It's much simpler to think about communism if you're talking about farm work and house building and hunting, and other simple things that have been done for thousands of years. But if you care about technological advancement then capitalism is the only real way to go. I want to see humanity advance, I want to see smarter AI, faster computers, cures for diseases, cleaner energy, faster cars and planes, etc. Capitalism helps all of those things develop as quickly as possible because there is profit to be made in all of them.
If you don't care and just want a simpler life then that's fine, you could live in a small communal village where your communism works. But to think a modern industrialized society could be converted to communism without either regressing technologically or becoming a totalitarian state is ridiculous.
[–]confesstousher2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Congratulations on finishing 8th grade economics. Glad to see they're still showing Oliver Stone's 'Greed is good' Wall Street scene.
Your analysis fails to take into account: automation, monopolies, inherited wealth, passive wealth, government revolving door, citizens united, 'Too Big to Fail', 'Too Big to Jail', triple bottom line, environmental impacts, technological revolutions, NAFTA & other trade agreements
If someone creates a cure for cancer only because they wanted to be a billionaire, is that a bad thing?
Yes that is a bad thing. If you see no intrinsic value in saving millions of people and only want a vault filled with cash, that is a bad thing.
You need to spend more time on the differences between socialism, communism and nutty stuff Mao and Stalin got up to, before we can have a coherent conversation.
ironically you're basically bribing them with money while claiming communists don't care about money
How dare those poor people benefit from government economic relief, let's put them back in their lowly place, then return to giving the top 1% tax breaks.
[–]CadeyrnDragheim2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I mostly agree with you, BUT i also think that unrestricted capitalism, like what is mostly now, is not a good way to go. What i mean is, for example, if the worker gets 15$ and produces 30$, ok, might be fair (though imo it shouldn't be twice as much, that's too much, but so be it). But if the next year, because of inflation, he produces 40$ goods, but still gets 15$ wage, the year after that produces 50$ goods, but he still gets 15$ wage, so on and so forth, that is just totally taking advantage of people and almost the same as slavery imo, just that the slaves willingly come to work and take care of themselves, you just have to pay them.
I think that employees should be given a percentage of the profit at the end of the year and not a fixed wage, or you have a fix minimum wage and then you get more if the company has more profit. Just seems more fair to me.
[–]elonsbattery0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah, but every country on earth is a little bit socialist. Public education, police, armed forces, public transport, parks etc are ‘socialist’ ideas.
Not to mention, government owned industries work extremely well in some instances. Finland government pretty much own mining and all proceeds go to the people. Singapore government owns a tonne of communications.
Capitalism doesn’t work in a completely strict sense, just like communism.
You still have the principal agent problem and the problem that the state is basically extracting rent from its ownership of violence.
People's nature won't get us to some kind of voluntary anarchocapitalist utopia anytime soon, but I think there's very good reasons to keep the government small. "Minarchism".
Because the dynamics seems to be slow eventual doom through growth of that entity: Just look at how corrosive government-sponsored feminism is, for example.
[–]mikedeezy667925 points26 points27 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So socialism for the rich than . What an idiot
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
People are wondering what this has to so with MGTOW? It's entirely women and blue pilled beta faggots pushing for socialism.
I came from nothing. No help. Started my own business, worked 80 hours a week. Am successful. I'm not about to fund the lives of lazy slobs who despite having every advantage choose not to put any effort into life other than demanding free shit from people that do.
[–]EternalSunshine12344 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Socialism =/= welfare. It's about the workers owning a share of the firms they work at.
If you are familiar with employee co-ops, then just imagine socialism as having all companies being co-ops, where the company profits are shared by the workers. The same hiring/firing privileges against lazy people would still apply.
[–]JamesMercer11 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
How would any of these businesses start if not for people like the gentleman who’s comment you’re replying to starting those businesses to suit the needs or wants of the consumers?
[–]EternalSunshine12342 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, most businesses are started by the individual founder applying his savings and seeking debt from a local bank. As the company grows, more sophisticated equity finance would be sought from venture capital firms, generous angel investors and eventually the public stock market in an IPO (most companies don't get this far, though).
Under a more socialistic system, the initial founding of a firm would be about the same. You would probably see more people teaming up to pool their savings together since there won't be outside capitalists to invest in the company. Getting a bank loan shouldn't be any different, though, but each partner would assume their share of the debt.
In other words, the way a new business would start under socialism would be similar to how small business partnerships form now. The company would grow its own equity from retained earnings over time, rather than requesting non-employee investment.
Hi there, non-woman, non-blue pilled faggot pushing for socialism here. We exist, crazy I know. Somehow we decided the biggest problems stem from massive corporations exerting corrupt influence on our country. That the 99% should also be pushing for policies that benefit themselves as well. Congrats on founding your own hard work and being the exception to capitalism's competitive emphasis on creating economic losers. Here's another plan, implement universal basic income, and never have a reason to interact with women again.
[–]manslam-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I've had little to no advantage in life, I'm educated, intelligent, honorable, hardworking, have been out of work for a year, and am down to 76 cents in my bank account as of today.
I support socialism because I believe someone trying his best to be a good person, contribute to society, and follow it's rules, should be able to have the opportunity to do so. Capitalism and greed have gone too far. Period.
A big reason why is due to people like you; those who take the easy route and hate those unlike yourself. You refuse to accept and understand that not everyone has had the breaks you have had, or been in a position to capitalize on them.
Just try to stay courteous and realize the easy, female way of life is to dismiss or hate something instead of try to learn about and understand it.
I support socialism because I believe someone trying his best to be a good person, contribute to society, and follow it's rules, should be able to have the opportunity to do so.
Are you talking about a basic social safety net? What do you mean by contribute to society? Being a net tax payer?
What do you mean by 'follow the rules'? Aspire to some variant of a non-agression-principle?
Or follow the rules of others? What makes you believe that those rules and their making don't gravely suffer from the principal agent problem?
Evidently, they do suffer from this. Very much so.
Capitalism and greed have gone too far. Period.
What about the greed of the state?
I hear you on the greed, though I think it is rather consumerism and shallowness that's mislabelled as such. But could that kind of dynamics be the result of sexual market dynamics as well?
I suspect a dog-eat-dog attitude in the sexual market place spills over to other areas ...
And I suspect tying that to 'capitalism' is just a red herring.
[–]mgtow4lifefellas0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
So instead of misery for a few it should be misery for everybody? That's the problem with you leftists. You blame everybody else for your own shortcomings etc. It's not my fault you have 76 cents in your bank account or that you are unemployed. If you are so intelligent as you claim to be you would find a job no matter what.
So why don't you pack up your shit and move to Venezuela, then? If socialism is so good.
[–]manslam1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
And that's the problem with ignorant rightwing nutbags: 1. You interpret taking the idea of 8 cars and 10 million dollar mansions away as "misery for all." And 2. You can't help but project your insecurity instead of finding a semblance of compassion.
I never blamed you for my woes, not once, not even slightly; yet, you felt the compelled to make sure and point out that they were not your fault. Because then you can view me as an enemy and then you can write me off. I hate to tell you this, but you are basically a feminist.
[–]mgtow4lifefellas-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
And that's the problem with ignorant rightwing nutbags
So I'm an ignorant nutbag because I don't want some lazy, entitled idiot to take my hard earned money? And why are left wing scum like you even here? It's because of you idiots we have this gynocentric bullshit. I'd love to have a woman but because of scum like you mgtow is the only option for me. Left wing scum let women get away with anything, because if women are held accountable it's suddenly sexism and misogyny.
You interpret taking the idea of 8 cars and 10 million dollar mansions away as "misery for all."
What would you call it, then? Why should people with money have to suffer just because people without it are in suffering? Again: So why don't you pack up your shit and move to Venezuela, then? If socialism is so good.
I never blamed you for my woes, not once, not even slightly; yet, you felt the compelled to make sure and point out that they were not your fault.
Not personally. But the foundation of socialism is that it's always somebody else's fault. ''I don't have a million dollars, it's my neighbor's fault.'' Oh, and I'm a feminist now? Tell me something else that I didn't know about myself. Please, I'm all ears.
[–]manslam0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
You wouldn't hear it if I did. You are the representation of everything wrong with men. Yes, you are just as delusional as a feminist: two sides of the same coin, yet you'll never see that you are what you hate. Just as they will not see that they are.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Let me tell you about my breaks. Born to an abusive heroin addict single mother. Homeless at 16. Tell me about my breaks and how you've had it so tough.
[–]manslam0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Never said you had it good, or easy. That is not the conversation. If you are doing as well as you claim, then you have had breaks along the way. Perhaps that is the philosophical problem at the core of this. Since you had a bad start, you fall to recognize the breaks you did have. People work hard all the time and never find a break. My grandma was a prime example of this. She worked diligently for 25+ years with the same company, never was able to move up and then let go just before retirement to save the place money.
Working hard is not an automatic pass to a good, successful life, and what makes things so damn toxic is that people like you don't realize that. You myopically apply your personal experience as a blanket to everyone else's. Because you did work hard and you did find success, you refused to accept that others who work hard can be fucked by the system in any way. That is where you fall short in your understanding of the lives of others. You see yourselves as the almighty comparison tool for which all others should be compared. Your ego fosters your ignorance.
[–]GalacticLinx0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
FALSE,
All 3rd wave feminists are in ultra capitalist countries, like USA, UK, Australia, Canada, etc.
Can you find a 3rd wave feminist in a socialist country? Can you find them in Cuba, North Korea, China, Belarus? Can you find them in ex socialist countries? can you find them in Rusia, or Eastern Europe?
Well, socialism invented the TRUE FEMINISM, the one that makes them equal to work, have education, go to war, and HAVE RESPONSABILITIES.
CAPITALIST COUNTRIES TWISTED IT UP AND INVENTED THE 2ND AND 3RD WAVE, TO DESTROY SOCIETY. Thats what capitalism do.
But besides that, MGTOW has nothing to do about capitalism and communism. I can recall a lot of GTOW men who are socialist or anarchist as fuck.
THIS POST IS SHITY CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA. And i'm seeing a lot of it in this sub, i find it disgusting and low.
[–]Raygar2112 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
When I think of communism, I think of the Yugo, the worst car ever made. Then again, without socialism, we'd have to do without public schools, roads, fire/police depts., etc, etc. If the whole country's infrastructure had to be privatized it'd be chaotic and too unwieldy. We need a balance of both.
[–]Nondisposableentity4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nuance is not allowed in internet discussions.
Indeed. I agree.
[–]Luther_the_God5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
This is fucking retarded, A. And B, what the fuck does it have to do with men going their own way?
[–]EternalSunshine1234-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
There's been a lot of attempts here to package economic socialism/communism with the "cultural marxism" (which isn't a thing).
If you hate intersectional/third-wave feminism like a lot of folks here do, that's fine. I hate it too. But Karl Marx literally said nothing about feminism and some folks here are trying to put them all together as leftist boogeyman.
If free markets are so great, then what's MGTOW's excuse for withdrawing from the sexual/dating marketplace?
[–]ruiiiij2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If you're not okay with women taking your hard earned money, why would you be okay with ANYONE taking your money?
[–]EternalSunshine12344 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If it's invested wisely in maintaining a sane society, taxation isn't bad.
Are you okay with capitalists taking the vast majority of the value of your work, and only leaving you with what they call the "market rate of pay"? The folks sitting around conference tables in executive suites aren't doing the real work. They're the welfare leeches. They even got the government to give them special low tax rates on their income because it's "capital gains" instead of hard-earned wages.
Meanwhile, men are net tax payers and women are net tax receivers ...
And lots of the money goes to funding all kinds of divide-and-conquer and other campaigns to keep you and me in fear with further help of the state's monopoly on violence.
Yes, I hear you. I have nothing against a basic social safety net, roads and so forth and paying for those. And getting a guarantee in return that should I encounter hardship, I can access those resources within reason in return.
But the attitude of anyone against men is generally one of "eat dirt". Is it any wonder people are against taxes and big government here?
I think part of the problem is the size of the structures - with hundreds of millions of people in a single structure, accountability gets lost.
It probably starts to get lost at single digit millions even. I think a much stronger feedback loop is needed here, and I think that can only happen with smaller structures or vastly reformed representation (e.g. random sampling of the representatives from the population etc.).
Are you okay with capitalists taking the vast majority of the value of your work, and only leaving you with what they call the "market rate of pay"? The folks sitting around conference tables in executive suites aren't doing the real work. They're the welfare leeches.
But where is that welfare coming from, if not the government?
They even got the government to give them special low tax rates on their income because it's "capital gains" instead of hard-earned wages.
An unaccountable government is the problem here as well ... and a bigger government has a better chance to become unaccountable.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"cultural marxism" (which isn't a thing).
wat?
[–]weaklion-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Markets are voluntary. Free markets are great indeed. Because free markets include the option to opt out.
A free market doesn't mean I have to put my house on sale. it means I can.
As much as my house is not for sale, my commitment is not for sale. My decision.
[–]ShrunkenHed-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh, it certainly is, inarguably, "a thing."
[–]DaSniffer3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
This sub is slowly going down the shutter. Wtf is this r/the_donald shit, this has nothing to do with MGTOW, Fuck off
[–]MadPreacher1AD4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Men Going Their Own Way and this has everything to do with it. What's wrong? Don't you like it when men choose to do/talk something you don't agree with?
[–]EternalSunshine1234-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
The free market of dating rejects a lot of people, and MGTOW is a collection of people who, by no fault of their own, were not seen as valuable in that marketplace.
You don't have to like socialism, but preaching about capitalism if you don't own much capital (hint: if you aren't a hedge fund manager you're not a capitalist) seems odd. Defending free markets when the most important marketplace in life (sexual attraction and romantic relationships) is fucking y'all over.
It just seems odd, like defending an abusive partner. Capitalism is a thot.
[–]MadPreacher1AD2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I usually don't talk about capitalism. I do like tweaking commies noses with the 120 million plus people they murdered and a new word was created to describe it because it's funny.
I could actually give you a litany of reasons why the current system isn't capitalism at all, but you wouldn't listen. Nobody likes listening to the truth because it's a bitter pill to swallow as it requires being able to admit you're wrong. Prove me wrong in my belief and I'll describe the differences.
[–]EternalSunshine12341 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I agree that our current system is a mixed economy (mostly capitalistic, with strong centralized welfare programs).
And yes, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Castro were pricks. No disagreement here, actually. Lots of suffering and death due to their "revolutions" and subsequent oppressive regimes.
What bitter pill am I supposed to swallow, exactly? What "wrong" am I admitting to here?
[–]MadPreacher1AD2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We're not even a mixed economy any longer. We're actually full blown corporate fascism.
Most people are like that. You surprised me in your response, so that's a good sign.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"MGTOW is a collection of people who ... were not seen as valuable in that marketplace."
Perhaps this is the lynch pin, MGTOW is a group of individuals so I cannot speak for them. But it is not that I have no value, it is that I see no value. I have x, I can trade x for y, but I would prefer x to y, thus I keep x. It does not require that I cannot obtain y, nor does the lack of y impede me.
But it is not that I have no value, it is that I see no value. I have x, I can trade x for y, but I would prefer x to y, thus I keep x. It does not require that I cannot obtain y, nor does the lack of y impede me.
Exactly. Price != value.
It is interesting how much criticism of the left stems from the core assumption that price == value. They assume it, forget about it, and then criticize others for their own broken assumptions.
[–]Average_Scrub1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. I don't fucking understand this right wing propaganda abounding in the MTGOW movement.
[–]2Grit0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Too many conservative right wingers here. SAD! Not much you can expect from a sub of this nature though.
[–]weaklion1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Too many conservative right wingers here.
Rather: People who see through the smoke and mirrors of 'a caring state', given the pile of evidence collected in the last couple decades.
Men are disposable, especially for big government. Who dies in wars?
And now we should bow down and like this contraption?
Not much you can expect from a sub of this nature though.
Then why are you here?
[–]SomeGhostingGuy0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
From my place I am in the next former eastern block country in a one hours drive, 22hrs to drive to Moscow.
I do business in these areas and even 30 years after the fall of communism, outside of repaired inner cities, there is still a lot of poverty, even more when going to rural areas which are basically rural western Europe back in 1970.
My translator i travel around with is from the Altai region in RU, that is another 2 days by train east of Moscow.
Basically this huge area, from me to Altai is one huge field to grow things ... and under communism they actually managed to starve and had to import food.
That is how efficient communism was.
Without their huge private ("private run") gardens everybody from Hungary to China had to feed themselves and produce some sellable surplus AND without the imported food from the west (to pacify the evil Commie) the whole eastern block would have collapsed in 1950.
Does not work, never did, never will, but attractive to the dumb and the lazy.
[–]TB4094 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't think aliens would care about our egos. More so would like to enslave us and/or take our resources.
[–]Table-2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
40 hours? This week i clocked 56 hours mon-fri. You cannot get by on just 40 hours anymore.
This has nothing to do with MGTOW.
[–]GlitchyBlasphemer3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I’d like to humbly disagree. For those of us that still maintain jobs in our respective societies, the amount of our income that is taxed and what it is going to is quite relevant. I personally want to keep as much of the sweat from my brow as I can. I did work for it after all.
[–]SomeGhostingGuy1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Just come from 4chan/pol/
They hate MGTOW there too according to comments. We are doing something right when we piss off all people.
[–]Nezborn020 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
isn't that gynocentrism
[–]stringedbeams0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
he/EC describes crony capitalism not the free market or "real™ capitalism"
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Joseph FTW.
[–]MGTOW_4Life0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They both suck
[–]mgtow4lifefellas0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wow, all the fucking leftists in the comments. Just move to fucking Venezuela if socialism is so good. Get the fuck out of here. Way to go to ruin MGTOW as well. Soon we're gonna have feminism here. It's because of leftists we have divorce rapes. You idiots think everybody should get a piece of the pie no matter what.
[–]orphancrippla0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I doubt a spacefaring alien species would even give a fuck about a bunch of angry, planet bound primate's economic systems.
[–]Raygar210 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's impossible not to have a blend of the two forms: capitalism and socialism. However, having capitalism being the predominant economic model with socialism running in the background to handle infrastructure makes the most sense, as capitalism drives innovation and economy, and socialism makes the trains run on time (think of our Amtrak vs German rail system)
If all workers, but especially tech/professional workers, are expected to continue with heavy output or even increasing output for stagnating or falling wages, they will eventually burn out and end up putting in the time, waiting to punch the clock until they go home. Unbridled capitalism starts to resemble socialism at the furthest end of spectrum for lack of innovation and increasing destruction of workforce. De facto slavery and capitalism work very well together--consider the suicide nets of the iPhone factories in China.
The problem with automation and our aging populace coupled with much higher birth rates for largely uneducated world populace is going to be an enormous problem. A problem that will require constant innovation which only a capitalistic system can provide. However, there will also likely be multiple crises for our country as well as humanity with the loss of jobs due to automation and natural disasters due to climate change. Not to mention the threat of radicalized terrorists of all flavors and races.
While it's nice to think that private responses will be sufficient, think of the problems that having a totally privatized military would create. Or multiple private relief organizations without overarching government coordination I don't think the argument for one system or another is truly the issue, because at the present time we have a blend of both. What we're arguing about is which system should predominate. There is no question that that system should be capitalism, with socialism continuing in its role as the organizing force of infrastructure.
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