~ archived since 2018 ~

Communication Doesn't Work....or Maybe...

February 28, 2020
79 upvotes

What follows is an idea I've shared with few but I think MRP needs to hear. It goes full circle back to the very first lesson we learned when we got here. And I wouldn't be surprised if it ruffled some feathers. But I am confident and prepared to stand behind this message. For those that are new, this is a big summary of the entire journey, and will arm you with many sticks of dynamite. Use at your own risk. For those more experienced, I would advise start at Part 2.

 

Part 1: Your wife the black box

So let's start somewhere at the beginning of your journey. Where you went and watched Keanu Reeves in the matrix. And learned that the ideas and things you had been taught and created yourself in your head up to this point may not be exactly the way life really goes.

And you look back at your life and see that the ideas that you had that led you to the point you were before you found MRP came from mental models you developed from your parents, from your babysitters, from your school, and all the leaders you seemed to look to naturally as you grew up. And you seem to have just carried that expectation of someone else being in charge (up on that pedestal) to the woman you married.

 

All these false expectations, like a Disney fairytale marriage, unlimited possibilities, morality, and friendly faces all around you you now realize were just ideas put into your head to control your behavior, guide your decisions, and then make you act in the best interests of society when you got older. And as a parent (if you have kids) I'm sure you have seen and rationalized the necessity of these tools in order to keep a growing mind on track. Hoping that one day your child will also be able to see the light like you have and breakout of those mental models.

 

Now you tell me the difference between the sexes where women, too, do not undergo this same type of behavioral and societal control while they're growing up. Show me where they would not likely come to the same place as you were where the mental models of how they should act and run their lives are all delusions based on what they were told and promised growing up. IE:

Women are stuck in their own matrix

 

But you've been at this awhile. You've been grinding. Making yourself better. Getting new perspectives from new books on life, how to act, how to deal with situations, your emotions, and others. You've "unplugged" from that matrix. I bet if you were to compare what you are and know now to what you were and knew before MRP you would be astonished at the change.

And you would also have to be pretty thankful for having been exposed to these thoughts and books and ideas. Because no matter how sure you thought you had your life before...you kept running into a wall between what you were, and how you wanted your life to be. And that's what drove you to find MRP, and unplug from the matrix.

 

The matrix is the draft working model you have in your head about what life is, what happens in it, and what you do and feel about that. And this working model changes over time. Some time in your life you went from being a baby to being a kid. And another time you went from being a kid to being a teen. And then again you went from being a teen to being an adult. But if I ask you when the day was you thought you switched from one category to the other...I bet your couldn't identify it. It just kind of...happened over time. But these areas of your life are clearly defined due to you having to adopt wider and broader mindsets in order to get through them successfully.

 

Now I argue that you have reached a point where you have expanded yourself from what you used to be before MRP, to what you are now after MRP. And I ask you with all the growth that you've made with the resources you had, all the books on the sidebar, all the notes we share around here, all the feedback you get...how is it you expect your wife to make growth in the same leaps and bounds without those resources? IE:

Your wife has not received the same help and guidance you have to build herself a working mental model in adulthood and marriage

 

We talk about leadership and leading our wives and the 1000ft rope often here in MRP. We try to address problems in our marriage using things we learned like agree and amplify, negative inquiry, and dread. We employ these things in response to things our wives do and in response to their following (due to our leading) or their not following (due to the 1000ft rope).

But when I look at these behaviors and MRP, and notes from many of the more popular books and mantras, we seem to build our actions and reactions as if our wives are just a black box of unknowable emotions and ideas that have concrete, non-flexible structure. I've mentioned this a few times in my posts but if you're not familiar with what a black box is in technology terms...a black box is a piece of software, system, or something where you get to put inputs in, and observe reactions that come out, but you are not privy to anything that goes on within that box.

 

A lot of MRP describes the wife as run purely by feels and evolutionary drives. Almost as if there is no pilot at the wheel in her head. (Sound familiar captain?) As if she is a black box that you merely put actions into and look at results.

And I dont know about your wife...but mine...mine has gone through life and proven that she has someone at the wheel. She went to college, got a nursing degree, has a stable job, attempts to parent our kids, juggle schedules, and occasionally has fun. We talk about serious topics. I see her try to follow my lead. And that's a really important part.

 

We see women out on the street or pursuing their career or sport or attending a business meeting and it shocks us to learn that they actually have a full fledged life, baggage, emotion, and drive to their lives. They absolutely have the ability to follow a lead, but they also have the ability to make decisions too.

 

Do you think your wife has someone behind the wheel making decisions in her head? Have you seen your wife try to follow your lead? When little things pop up like she's talking angrily at you and the kids and you tell her you dont approve of her talking to the kids like that and want her to talk a different way. Does she? So then I ask you how and why we seem to treat them from MRP as black boxes, if we know they are actually someone with a life, passions, and reasons (albeit possibly misguided) for their actions. IE:

Your wife is not a black box, you can see and inquire about the inner workings

 

Part 2: Feelings and Actions

But a lot of what MRP teaches when they say that you cannot change her, so just worry about you, is to almost to take a hands off approach to addressing her issues. It's kind of like "she is what she is and does what she does...so I'll handle me and my guidance will simply be my actions." And so we believe that the change we cause is based on action.

And I believe that in our action, we are speaking volumes, but we're really not saying much. I believe in our actions we're still secretly hoping to affect change in all the layers of her emotional paradigm. This emotional paradigm I believe consists of four levels and draws from base emotions all the way in the hind brain to social and societal ways to deal with those emotions. And I believe both men and women deal with very similar levels of this paradigm:

 

Level 1) THAT we feel: This is a base, natural driven thing. I've been in more scenarios than I can count where something makes me feel (angry, upset, happy, bitter, whatever) and I cannot change that feeling within me. Or I've seen my wife wake up angry, or upset, or happy and when I ask why she's feeling that way she replies "I dont know, I just do". Sometimes I'm having a bad day and have no idea why, but I know I'm feeling it, and I cannot change it. It's almost like that set of initial conditions that you cannot affect, that life (or your brain) gives you. "This is your problem/emotion. Deal with it."

 

Level 2) What we THINK about those feelings: We build mental models in order to deal with those feelings. We shield ourselves from them. We spin them into beliefs of what they mean or what we think we can believe in concerning how or why we think this way. We explain them away. Or we "ignore" them...ignore meaning don't allow ourselves to feel them, but bottle them up instead. Or, contrarily, we let the problems affect us internally. We swim in those problems in our head.

 

Level 3) What we DO about those feelings: This, as opposed to 2, is more action oriented. When we are angry we strike out in action. When we are afraid we recoil in fear. When we are attracted we open ourselves and get close. This is actually taking the step to do an action oriented response to deal with the problem/emotion. It's communicating that we're moved...but not exactly why, or what to do about it. It's basically screaming to the world "I AM FEELING SOMETHING", but not what or why.

 

Level 4) How we COMMUNICATE those feelings: This is more along the lines of communication. Not acting the feelings out, but expressing them openly and honestly, or openly but dishonestly. IE, "I have a problem and I want you to know it" vs. "I have a problem and you should do something about it." It's hoping that by letting the problem be known and offering it up in it's entirety, that the world will help take care of it, rather than having you bare the burden yourself.

 

These 4 are listed in order of increasingly being open about the problem. In 1 we keep it totally to ourselves. It just is. In 2 we decide to tackle it within ourselves using our thoughts. In 3 we outwardly express the RESULT (action) of the problem. In 4 we outwardly communicate the feelings themselves. 1 is least vulnerable. 4 is most vulnerable.

 

MRP seems to handle the first three. They get you to explore yourself and realize that yes you do feel emotions. They give you framework to think about what those emotions mean within yourself. And they give you ways to show the world via your actions that you are feeling. And after you get deep on the dread ladder, MRP even suggests some of 4, the "I have a problem and if you know what's good for you, you'll fix it". But MRP almost shuns open and honest communication of a problem. And I think that's because deep down, MRP is afraid of the potential for rejection of that problem when it's laid bare. The point being:

We are speaking volumes through our actions, but not really saying anything.

 

So I want you to consider for a second...and this is going to go against every fiber of what you've learned so far, but if what I've said is true, that women have their own matrix, that they have not received the guidance to improve like we have, that they aren't a black box and thus can learn about this guidance (and we can learn about them), but also that if we simply rely on our actions to speak for our intent...that the message becomes clouded...i think you have to conclude that a measure of what I call Open and Honest communication is necessary for a relationship.

And i know what you're thinking....that this goes against everything that we've said here at MRP so far. And I'm with you in experience that I've had conversations with my wife about what I need and they've gone unanswered. I think it's very nuanced with what you need to say, how you need to say it, and when you need to say it.

 

For instance I've had several conversations to my wife about how I need physical affection. Not just sex, but holding hands, hugging, cuddling, kissing, touching, that kind of thing. I've said that very openly to her and gotten no change in behavior. And this is what draws us to the conclusion that talking doesnt work.

But I also have to say that in any instance that you try to change someone's mind about a behavior, and they're not ready or dont have the mental structures in place to receive that change, that that change is going to be met with inaction or resistance. Think about red-knighting for example. If you do this with GUYS who arent ready to hear what you have to say, then they too will not change and may even resist you, and change. Why would your wife be any different?

 

How then does someone become ready to hear that change? There's two ways. The first is the way we're born with and operate on for most of our life. I believe that our internal mental models are so ingrained in us, that we don't really make an effort to change them until we run into the harsh reality that they don't work. It's the reality you felt when you had to look for MRP. It's why when you constantly enable your wife and her life is fine and dandy while you desire change, why she doesn't change. And yes it's why if your wife doesn't think there's a possibility that you'll leave her, that she wont change either. Being ready to receive change happens only when we choose to search for change. And that's why I'm sharing all this with many of you, because I believe your gut feeling is searching for this change.

 

The second way is a learned experience. And I've said this several times in my posts as well. The second way is one can receive change through open and honest communication when they come to learn that the mental models that they have in life can be WRONG. Before this, back before MRP, back to your rebellious teens, even back to your childhood where you believed you knew how to act. In all those times the thought wouldn't even cross your mind that you could be wrong. That there could be other ways. But once you come to the conclusion that you have the ability to be wrong about your ways...only then will you be ready to hear and accept change through the suggestion alone that change may be needed.

The things we do say to inflict change, our audience needs to be ready to hear.

 

So I want to take a second to discuss what I think the key aspects of open and honest communication are. Because this gets to some piece of the feeling I had, and the feeling it seems you may have, with leaving something on the table.

I think what I felt I left on the table was the ability to just talk to someone in a way where, just like I learned in MRP when flirting with women to be open to rejection, to not let it affect you, to feel like you are a prize...open and honest communication is taking those feelings you have within you that make you you, that your ego is constantly trying to protect, and handing them to whoever youre talking to and going "Here's who I am. Here's what I want. Do what you will."

 

It's literally like taking your heart and handing it to your wife and allowing her to either smash it, or acknowledge it. Her choice. And then being okay with her choice. Not okay as in you accept whatever she chooses to do with your true self you handed her, but okay that she GETS to choose what to do with it. It's being confident enough that you put yourself out there as a self contained unit and you allow the world to affect you. It's being okay that they have that choice.

 

I've read a lot of posts around where people are talking about how they've read about the stoics. How they no longer let life impact them. They are a rock. And I feel like that's an easy trap to fall into when trying to be stoic. Being stoic doesnt mean walling yourself up so much that you dont let life affect you. It's being vulnerable enough to let life to impact you full force, feel the resulting emotions you're programmed to feel biologically, and then having a mental model in place so that you are still in control and can deal with life despite those emotions. I don't want to not feel. I want to feel everything, and then be able to handle it. So I'm sure you've seen a few times in my posts:

Open and honest communication is being able to give and receive what you think and feel, and what others think and feel, freely.

 

Part 3: Communication Doesn't work...or...we just weren't ready for the answer.

So then the big question is why does MRP explain that open and honest communication is not the way to what you want? That's it's negotiating desire. That we crave a natural born desire for value from our wives. I think this craving for natural born desire drives at the heart of the problem.

 

Recall back to the start of your relationship, where you met someone and formed an opinion of them based solely on looks, and maybe a few words. And she did the same to you. Back when this happened each of you had in your heads this ideal person whom you were seeking. This person embodies many interesting and unique characteristics. And since you knew so little about this person (or they you), what they did to fill in the rest was idealize the best possible scenario for all those unknown attributes.

After the first date, and the second, and the third, where you were excited to learn all these new and interesting things about this person, there was still a lot of draw and mystery to them. I mean you have their entire lives that they've lived so far to figure out.

 

But as the weeks turn into months turn into years, you start filling in all those mysterious parts you didn't know with the facts of who they truly are. And some of those facts fit who you wanted them to be, and some did not (and the same happened to her of the mystery that was you). And at some point we marry and settle into a workable pattern of roles given our jobs, hobbies, kids, sleep needs, sexual needs, etc.

And then we look back and remember the rush we had when we first met and that potential. Or we look at other couples either in person or showing their best sides online, or we watch a Disney movie where a couple meet and are living in that moment where the mystery is still there. And we, again now as a third person observer, fill in everything we don't know about the dynamics of that couple's relationship with the best possible scenario of how their relationship could be.

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It's called observer bias...and we do it on Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat all the time. You only get to see the best of times and thoughts people have posted to their Facebook. So we (in our own heads) extrapolate that that must be their lives all the time. Fun, sun, excitement, and family. But that's not the case.

 

I ask you then why it's so easy to accept when we come to MRP that the Disney fairytale BS we've been fed our whole lives isn't true...which, if you think about it was never FED to us...but WE made it up because WE filled in the blanks with our ideal thoughts of the relationship they would have in the future (all the story said was "happily ever after"...we invented what that meant)...why can we accept that as truth, but not the idea that:

Natural desire is merely an idealized version we project onto the mystery that is someone else.

 

So what about all the talk of evolutionary born desire? What about the feeling that emotional inner workings of women can be exploited to produce natural desire if we don't tell them about the sauce? Because "Don't talk about fight club" has always been a saying here. And I argue two things:

 

1) That the natural born desire that can be brought back out within our spouses is based on you changing enough of yourself that that mystery she saw in you in the beginning begins to show again. That she asks herself "who am I married to? I thought I had them figured out. But now I don't know." And that mystery comes in part because we act in accordance with #3 on the emotional paradigm I mentioned earlier: Actions without clear messages. She sees this and knows we're saying something...but not what. And that uncertainty breeds mystery.

 

2) That I would wager most of the more experienced guys on this forum's wives at some point have found MRP and seen the sauce. That through time and effort, action and communication, enough has been revealed that their wives understand that there is a drive out there for us guys to find our true selves and make the best of our lives...and that actually is a good model to follow (hence, also, the existence of the MRP wives subreddits).

 

So I believe that there can still be scenarios where if we really wanted to, we men could live lives where the women in them still run on this natural born desire that derives from the mystery of the unknown you create and maintain. You could do this either from continuously keeping one women in the dark about who you are, or you could, over time, keep multiple women in the dark by switching whenever things started to get too familiar (playing the field).

And you know what? Depending on who you are and what you want...those methods may just fit into exactly what you need, what you're capable of, what you want out of a relationship, etc. And I definitely see the allure of breeding such a feeling in a relationship. Everyone is different and has different needs. But I feel like that feeling specifically negates the ability to actually bond truly with someone...BECAUSE of the fact that you always have to distance yourself from them.

 

For me, honestly, I really think in my head there's an idea that there exists some form of magical raw love/desire. But I sat down and talked the idea out with someone not too long ago. And they asked me what specifically I defined as love, and how my wife could go about bringing that feeling out. And it felt almost ridiculous and childish explaining it...my idea of love was that my wife intuitively knew what to do and what made me feel loved, and acted to bring out those feelings in me, WITHOUT me having to explicitly tell her what she needs to do. In other words:

We feel genuine desire is the drive and ability to read our minds and respond to our needs, without us having to communicate them.

&nsp;

And I think, again, that the above clearly accents that our resistance to having to communicate our needs is a buffer because we are AFRAID to communicate our needs, in the belief that it reduces that "magical" natural desire of getting them fulfilled without communication, AND because we are afraid they could be rejected. And much of the time they will be rejected because those who we tell them to are not ready or able to change themselves. That is a slow, methodical process that we work with them on. That's what marriage is. That's her following your lead. But getting her to a point where open and honest communication is possible, while it does necessitate a killing in some form of the magical mysterious natural desire, puts in it's place a CHOSEN desire...the decision for your wife to understand what you want and CHOOSE to fulfill it. Which, in my mind, I'm quite alright with. Negotiation is settling and unwanted compliance. But chosen desire is a different beast.

 

This has been a lot of information. I'm sure you don't necessarily agree with it. Especially because I came out of left field when you've been marching along to the MRP beat for some time now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what we've been taught. What I am saying though is if we put a small twist on it, we may find that we feel just as content when our wives DO understand our needs and CHOOSE to fulfill them, rather than us playing games trying to get them to "naturally" fulfill them.

I'm gonna drop the hammer here. See the thing about my marriage now is: I use communication on a daily basis and it is one of the most important aspects of my marriage. Which on the surface seems extremely blue pill. But with all that I've said before, the piece that makes the communication blue pill is that communication is covert, it's guarded, it comes with expectation that is not given in the over communication.

Communication as we understood and used it before was simply one big covert contract because "I want" meant "I expect", and was always covertly followed by "and if you don't." We would assume that we communicated our idea and it would be acted on as if simply stating something meant others had to consider and act on it. As if our communication set an expectation that through some unseen force had to be met...just because we are who we are...we are special. But then we would contradict our own uniqueness in our head. We would almost instantly devise the scenario of what we would do if that need or want that was communicated was not met, how we would react down the road as punishment or reward for following our communication.

 

What communication in my marriage is however is a direct line to and from my vision. And that direction is given freely, with the option to be followed or ignored freely

Is this a mode you want to operate in? As I said, it's your choice. And I'm communicating my thoughts to you openly and honestly and allowing you to make that choice yourself. I could have mysteriously pointed you in that direction through coded messages and suggestions in your OYS. Or I can just come out and say it because I think you're in a place to accept it.

 

Thinking of other people as potentially working from a place where they value different things than I do gives a whole new perspective to the intersocial and intergender dynamics I learned through my MRP experience. And that doesn't negate much of what I've learned so far either. It's just looking at it a different way.

At the end of the day, you wife still may choose to either not listen, or not follow. And at the end of the day you may have to take the path of divorce or an affair to find what it is you need in your life. But I think we're all trying to make sure that we've done everything we can do before we give up. And I think for me, that feeling of leaving something on the table, again, included the ability to just communicate what I'm feeling with no strings attached, and have those feelings heard and acknowledged.

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Post Information
Title Communication Doesn't Work....or Maybe...
Author Blarg_Risen
Upvotes 79
Comments 153
Date February 28, 2020 3:40 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit /r/MarriedRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/communication-doesnt-workor-maybe.341145
https://theredarchive.com/post/341145
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/fawj6j/communication_doesnt_workor_maybe/
Comments

[–]youngscott1828 points29 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Dynamite is right. This is a post that's definitely for intermediate/advanced MRP users. For beginners, especially if skimmed, it could be disastrous.

When I, for example, first started my journey here, honestly communicating my needs would've been a disaster. For one, I didn't know what my actual needs were. I thought I wanted more sex and for her to be more pleasant around me.

In reality, my honest needs were things like "I need you to sexually desire me so I feel validated" and "I need you to stop nagging me so I can continue putting in the least effort possible in my life."

Of course, I wouldn't have been capable of honestly expressing those needs, nor should I have since those aren't needs she should be fulfilling. Those are needs I need to take care of.

It's only after doing the external and internal work to become a man who's self-validated and on his purpose that an honest communication of needs becomes possible and a good thing to do. At that point, for the reasons you talk about in your post, honest and open communication is how you're able to effectively lead you, your wife and your marriage to new heights.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '208 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

In reality, my honest needs were things like "I need you to sexually desire me so I feel validated" and "I need you to stop nagging me so I can continue putting in the least effort possible in my life."

Now, imagine making these statements in response to a shit test. Amused mastery.

What a difference frame makes.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

In reality, my honest needs were things like "I need you to sexually desire me so I feel validated"

Imagine flat out telling your wife she's your only sexual option and you're validation seeking.

so brave.

[–]Balls_Wellington_Wrong.3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's such a pathetic sentence

And yet

Still less pathetic than my covert validation seeking was

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You deserve better than 'less shit than it could be'

And if you don't, lie to yourself and pretend you do

[–]Balls_Wellington_Wrong.2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course. I was just struck by how, say, 6 months ago bluepilled me would've been totally unable to admit to myself that I sought sex from my wife as a form of validation. I would've said some bullshit like "I'm just a high sex drive man, I do so much for this family but my wife just doesn't care about my needs."

Today I realize that, while I have a healthy libido, that behavior was mostly just seeking her validation. Making that admission to myself felt like shit, but it was necessary to move toward being the man I want to be.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yeah, we have all been there man

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn man have you been sandbagging? You might be ready after all.

[–]EasyDaysHardNightsGrinding like Grandpa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's only after doing the external and internal work to become a man who's self-validated and on his purpose that an honest communication of needs becomes possible and a good thing to do.

Agreed. He must be in a place where he DNGAF and she must be tossing comfort tests. Or put more simply, He has Frame.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Advanced guys should be able to see it for what it is, leeway as a benefit of being a girls best option.

Even now, I know my girl knows my needs, if I have to blab about them all the time then I've not set expectations well enough early on

[–]RuleZeroDADMRP APPROVED14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Very good.

Many of us have said over the years that you will need to eventually use "your mouth sounds" to convey what it is you want, and also to pass compliance (shit) tests.

Most would chalk up "Acta non Verba" as a rule of thumb to create a mindset of "activity over pontification," because guys think themselves into doing nothing, and engage in planning while the ship is already on fire.

This also holds true for "watch what they do, and not what they say." People lie to protect feelings, and their body (or lack of sex) will betray you. In addition, most men in this space have "reasons" to explain themselves (DEERing) when they communicate so shutting their whore mouths can do some early good. If you suck, explaining your situation to someone who wishes you didn't suck does nothing productive.

Communication is not wrong. It is needed to pass advanced and traumatic comfort tests, it is needed to clarify logistics and boundaries, and it is needed to express what your actions can't and place emphasis on what is not acceptable.

If the message has been STFU AND LEAD BY SILENT EXAMPLE, then I apologize. Leading by example also includes purposeful communication and boundary enforcement.

You can't communicate your desires without first knowing what you want, and being able to express what is unacceptable to you from another person. "I love you" should be hard to say, because it means you've done the work to accept yourself enough to open up to others.

That's not vulnerability, that's an invitation on a journey you've given to someone else.

"I was heading that way anyway, It would make me happy if you came along."

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If the message has been STFU AND LEAD BY SILENT EXAMPLE, then I apologize

I wouldn't say it's anyone's fault for speaking the message, anymore than it's anyone's fault for misinterpreting it. Personally, I think the message has morphed over time and it was more literal years ago, but we've all grown and changed. Or maybe I grew and changed and am just projecting that onto MRP.

 

I also feel like while some guys here do get my message, many were speaking around it so as not to upset the cart. I had been planning to write this pretty much since I came back, but waiting for what felt like the right time. But then again, maybe I was also projecting my feeling of others talking around it onto them as well.

 

As with all things, it's probably a mix of all options.

[–]Tyred_BiggumsMRP APPROVED - anal on 2nd date10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It's being vulnerable enough to let life to impact you full force, feel the resulting emotions you're programmed to feel biologically, and then having a mental model in place so that you are still in control and can deal with life despite those emotions. I don't want to not feel. I want to feel everything, and then be able to handle it. So I'm sure you've seen a few times in my posts:

Great post. This is biggest lesson I've learned (am learning) from you. Embrace life as it comes. And be ok with it. There are bad days (some really bad) and good - but I get to choose how to deal with that.

But I think we're all trying to make sure that we've done everything we can do before we give up

Each and everyone of us needs to find this point for themselves. I still ask myself this question - even two months after separation. I continue to come to the conclusion I did do everything in my power. I've been PMing a couple people highly recommending that they do everything they can possibly do - they owe it to themselves - to improve themselves and attempt to lead their wife.

Divorce is hard - it was 100% the right decision for me - but it's not an easy path.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '203 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

they owe it to themselves

I think this is where most guys get tripped up. Owing it to yourself to see through your commitment to the greatest extent that you can is one thing. Exhausting your options simply because you "want to do right by her" or "trying to work things out for the kids sake" is quite another, and you end up sacrificing your self-respect.

As /u/red-sfpplus put it, "You have to, in your core believe and be willing to TAKE LESS THAN WHAT YOU THINK YOU ARE WORTH for the duration of your reboot phase in HOPES you will get something back. Good luck dealing with that mental anger and baggage."

[–]Tyred_BiggumsMRP APPROVED - anal on 2nd date4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Reboot phase.

What a great way to put it. I missed this from red but it’s spot on. You cleared all the clutter and now are rebooting your mental models.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '200 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Much respect for walking that path. Your story is one that I watch closely. I think it'll make for a good FR one day.

[–]Over60_FireTempered3MRP APPROVED7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Your most advanced post so far. MERP 4.0

You cleanly stated what's happening in my life.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I think either we've read two different posts or I missed the thrust of this

[–]Over60_FireTempered3MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

My short version:

There comes a point where a man lives in his own frame, such that he can say things, that with less frame might be blue pill, that promote and achieve red pill results. Further, if the response is not what he wants, he can and will walk away, immediately.

Wouldn't be the first time I read my own bullshit into a post...

Your take, old friend?

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Some guys are productive enough they can smoke weed and play games all day and still make bank.

This, to me, is the sexual equivalent

[–]umizumiz0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It pains me to say it, as it sounds so damn good, but I believe it most definitely IS a slippery slope.

I believe your thoughts on this post would make a damn good coffee vid.

The right man, the right circumstances... I believe this is good advice. The wrong man with the wrong circumstances... I'm torn on whether this is situational good advice, or general "advanced mrp" good advice.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I did already. Sometimes people have to work twice as hard to get half as much, implying some people are able to fuck up left and right while succeeding regardless.

[–]Over60_FireTempered3MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

some people are able to fuck up left and right while succeeding regardless.

..or they move so fast and focused that they generate gross amounts of visible mistakes along a high arc, and noticeable trajectory. Yet, their progress goes farther and faster then others, in relative terms. Kind of manic, but very successful.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know that's how it works, I'm framing it in a way that a seething betamale can accept it while he figures that out for himself.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said!

[–]RingoLaBrea6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fantastic.

This post, and several valuable replies, paint the landscape of that point far beyond the 1000 foot rope, where the hard work delivers a natural frame able to strip away any veneer. An expression of pill that resonates so strongly a harmony of two can truly be achieved.

It is important to know that land exists.

Peek at this revelation, but look away fast. The training wheels come off from wear, not from a wrench.

[–]rocknrollchuckMRP APPROVED6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

my idea of love was that my wife intuitively knew what to do and what made me feel loved, and acted to bring out those feelings in me, WITHOUT me having to explicitly tell her what she needs to do. In other words:

We feel genuine desire is the drive and ability to read our minds and respond to our needs, without us having to communicate them.

&nsp;

And I think, again, that the above clearly accents that our resistance to having to communicate our needs is a buffer because we are AFRAID to communicate our needs, in the belief that it reduces that "magical" natural desire of getting them fulfilled without communication, AND because we are afraid they could be rejected. And much of the time they will be rejected because those who we tell them to are not ready or able to change themselves. That is a slow, methodical process that we work with them on. That's what marriage is. That's her following your lead. But getting her to a point where open and honest communication is possible, while it does necessitate a killing in some form of the magical mysterious natural desire, puts in it's place a CHOSEN desire...the decision for your wife to understand what you want and CHOOSE to fulfill it. Which, in my mind, I'm quite alright with. Negotiation is settling and unwanted compliance. But chosen desire is a different beast.

Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

The Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. I thought you would have figured that out by now.

The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.

You've come a long way bro. Great post!

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well put. I appreciate the blast from the past. How'd you find that?

[–]rocknrollchuckMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When you made those comments, I was taken by surprise at how differently we viewed the concept of love. I messaged another redditor to get some insight into how we could see things so differently, and shared the link. This post brings things full circle - it would seem to me that we are not as far apart in our views, we simply describe it using different words.

[–]Nursing_Father_If you catch me whining, report me to mods0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

We can never see past the choice we don't understand.. What does that even mean?

[–]rocknrollchuckMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It means that you can't see beyond your own current level of awareness, so therefore your choices are limited to the world you know and understand.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You keep talking about this female matrix women can live in as well, and you're gonna shatter the MRP matrix some of these dudes traded up to! :)

Not that you need the atta boy, but ya did a great job explaining this concept. It's a great peek up the skirt for a lot of the guys struggling.

But I think they're struggling for reasons other than not understanding this concept you just wrote about. The reasons seem to be various, but the opposite of all of those reasons is the same. Those of us that do this very thing, or at least understand the concept of it, are no longer looking to this sub for approval of doing it. Or wondering if this way of communication is "MRP Approved."

Should we tell them that looking to MRP for approval is all the same as looking to their wives for it? Or should we let their brains recover a bit first? :)

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

From your replies to others I knew you would be one to instantly understand this post. It'll be interesting to see just how many now go and "talk" to their wives thinking blarg said to do it so it must work. Let em twist their brains, it'll all come out eventually.

[–]Balls_Wellington_Wrong.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Should we tell them that looking to MRP for approval is all the same as looking to their wives for it?

I definitely did this out of the gate. Just transferred my validation seeking from my wife to this sub. Still do, sometimes, with the guys whose opinions I've come to respect.

I know the question was rhetorical, but there was value for me in being called out on it. Validation seeking is a sneaky behavior. I didn't make much progress until I learned to recognize it.

[–]ZimZumZeeCurbed his enthusiasm5 points6 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

My interpretation of this is that, once you’ve developed and truly internalized OI and abundance, you can offer your wife an overt contract rather than a covert one to fulfill your needs in exchange for your time, attention, whatever. And if you are a high value man who has built attraction, your wife is almost certain to agree. And it’s not using words to negotiate attraction, as the attraction exists, your communication just removes any ambiguity as to what those needs may be.

If that’s the case it makes a lot of sense to me and could see this eventually being effective with my wife, if that’s how things turn out, as she’s definitely proven herself not to be a “black box”.

As for me? I’ll still STFU for a while as I get my shit in order.

Good post.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Partly...depends on what you mean by "in exchange for your time and attention".

 

Am I going to put my time and attention on the bartering table as a threat to her non-compliance? No.

Am I going to openly state my disapproval for non compliance? Yes.

Am I stating my disapproval because I want it to influence her behavior? No.

Would I be wasting my time and value when I could be enjoying, giving, and growing it elsewhere if I continued giving it to someone I disapprove of? Yes.

 

This can have a very similar feel to an excange...but what I'm doing is openly accepting the value she gives and receives freely and pushing the burden of performance back onto her to decide what her value is going to be.

 

At the end of the day, we work because we both have chosen to give and receive value. If one of us chooses not to. That's fine...even acceptable and expected over a long term intimate relationship. But if one of us chooses to not give value continually...and the other realizes this relationship isn't for them, then it just makes sense to dissolve it.

And this goes both ways. If I'm not what she wants, I expect her to go find someone who she wants, and I'll go find someone else I want. It is what is...and that's OI.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

At the end of the day, we work because we both have chosen to give and receive value.

You work because you’re alpha. Try dropping all this communication stuff, stop putting effort into the relationship, stop providing value, just be a selfish prick but stay alpha.

What will happen? Maybe she’ll bitch about a bit, but just hold frame through it and treat it like a shit test, and she’ll be back to submitting, doing what you want, giving value to you, without you doing anything return but being attractive.

I don’t see how this mutually giving and receiving value is relevant to how relationships work.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 4 points5 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I could also bind her, whip her, and rape her. I could also be a beta bitch, and call her mommy. That doesn't mean that's the dynamic I want.

I value our dynamic in the relationship as much as I value the value in it. To that end...mutually giving and receiving value is relevant to how relationships work.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Whatever works for you. But that’s not why it works for her.

You got good results in your relationship - that does not mean that everything you do is beneficial, or that your understanding of why is correct.

When people feel like making these “maybe MRP didn’t get it entirely right” posts, they really should stop and make sure they didn’t just get correlation and causality mixed up.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 4 points5 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Alpha and beta are traits that women respond to in particular ways

I've said it before and I said it in my post. Women aren't mechanical computer programs that if you just found the right inputs into, would work.

 

maybe MRP didn’t get it entirely right

If you think of all the dynamics humankind has come up with in the past have suddenly been trumped by THE ONE dynamic, MRP, that this is the one that works...that we just happened to get it right this time...ive got a bridge to sell you. Which is also something I've said before: Part of what I've learned here is that I've been wrong before, so there's no reason to believe that this time, MRP, is right. I don't think anyone here outside this post would even argue MRP CAN be right. It's just notes.

 

As always we take what works and leave the rest. It seems like you are somewhat bothered by what I'm saying and what I think it means. There are other guys in here that see my idea and allow that dynamic to be an end game, even while theirs are different. I find it interesting that they are able to live in parallel, rather than in contrast. It my be something you want to consider.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

I've said it before and I said it in my post. Women aren't mechanical computer programs that if you just found the right inputs into, would work.

People are meat robots, that’s just how it is.

Which is also something I've said before: Part of what I've learned here is that I've been wrong before, so there's no reason to believe that this time, MRP, is right.

Not really sure what you’re saying here? Except it sounds like you got a lot of reservations about the veracity of MRP.

There are other guys in here that see my idea and allow that dynamic to be an end game, even while theirs are different. I find it interesting that they are able to live in parallel, rather than in contrast. It my be something you want to consider.

I’ve been saying you can “live in parallel”. Sure, you can communicate and what not. It just doesn’t work aside from whatever personal enjoyment you get from it.

The issue comes when people begin believing there is actual benefit in these things. A lot of us have a lot of blue in us - we (me included) are naturally inclined to value leadership, respect, providing, honesty. And when someone makes a post that sounds red but praises these blue qualities, that resonates with a lot of guys here.

We have to be wary of that shit. It is from being alpha that you get an enjoyable relationship, that’s the causality. Don’t mistake the beta stuff you do as helping with that, it’s just correlation.

My own ideals are far from all alpha no beta. I’m an old school guy, lots of traditional values, into the whole nuclear family thing. Heck I even love my wife - and if I had thought that was relevant to MRP I would have commented on how your post makes it sound like you don’t love yours so wtf do you stay?

But I don’t get confused about what is alpha and what my ideals are. They’re not the same. It’s not essential that you can make the distinction, you can do a lot of stupid shit if you got the alpha to cover for it.

But when you begin giving advice, you need to have that insight.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

It seems we're at an impasse. It seems nothing I've said so far has changed the fact that you think I'm mistaking cause and effect. Nothing you've said so far has changed the fact that I think you are a few steps behind in how you view what MRP is and what communication does.

This may come up again in the future, but for now I reject your idea that my advice is misleading or lacking insight.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You should examine the question I posed you which would tell you if there is any merit to claims: what happens if you remove the communication?

Does she submit less? Or can your alpha keep her hooked without communication?

A further examination would be: What happens if you communicate more? Does she submit more or less?

Can you reduce alpha and let increased communication pick up the slack?

Does it matter what you communicate? If so, what is it beneficial to communicate and what is not?

That’s how you should examine your ideas. Do that, think about it, maybe even test it out. That’s how you escape muddy thinking, where you let your preferences and wishful thinking infect your insight.

I think we’d all be very surprised if you came back with anything other than “alpha works, and communication is great when it is signalling alpha, and to pass comfort tests once in a while.”

[–]lefty929-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I read through your convo and it seems you're missing the fact that this post is an opinion, and it isn't an attempt to generalize.

But you are taking it as if it is. Blarg explained to you the value this dynamic and communication brings to him, and then you proceed to say "no it doesn't bring value". Many of us actually enjoy spending time with our wives, communicating, and not just cavemanning shit with little-to-no communication. To each their own.

It's an opinion. Take it or leave it. You should be able to tell by the discussion in this thread that you aren't at the level of the OP yet and you still have lots to learn, and I say that as someone else with lots to learn.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Took me a while to get caught up, been a while. I'm glad you came in because for my retort your MAP was exactly what I was thinking.

Had you followed this advice you'd have been fucked

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Glad you came in too, I really don’t like how everyone else seems to be jumping on this communication bandwagon.

I’ve been wanting to write a post on communication for some time and this made me do do it, wrote it up yesterday, stringent stuff so we can see what is what. I’ll proofread it soonish, it got a bit long.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You should almost collect your field report of having to deal with a 10k person subreddit shit testing and shaming you into communicating more and how you held frame and succeeded in spite of the harpies

[–]Over60_FireTempered3MRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

One more thought...

After 4 years in MRP, u/strategos_autokrator spelled out his views on the Elements of Frame in a series of posts. You have taken his last post on Elements of Frame 3, and moved it forward.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well fuck me right in the ass. I would never of bet that that kind of thinking was around 4 years ago. Its great to see though. Looking into the past and seeing how ideas come around again. It definitely feels surreal. (By the way, I cry when Maximus dies at the end of Gladiator. No shame lol)

 

I might have to do more archaeology on older posts. Im definitely going to read his other elements posts. Great reference! Direct link for the lazy. A Guide to the Good Life...downloading now.

 

That was early in my journey and from what I recall not a lot of it stuck because I wasn't ready for it. Still in shock. Wow.

[–]Over60_FireTempered3MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I first read Stratego's posts, most of it was beyond me at the time.

What is interesting is the future intersection of the development of ideas.

Your journey has brought you to write similar, not same, and much more developed discussion of yet another higher level in the journey of becoming.

Coincidentally, my journey has brought me to a similar place. A place that I only barely understood existed 5 years ago.

[–]EasyDaysHardNightsGrinding like Grandpa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've read that. He didn't finish as he left the Vision Element out. But I've had that framework in mind for my own journey and have some updated perspective on that I'm going to share now. It's time.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR6 points7 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Ahhh I've been waiting for this!

Blarg - we've both unplugged our own wives from their own matrix, and I think that's an extremely rare thing to do after MRP.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that your audience here are men (not gigantic faggots) that understand and are living (or close to living) the example of successful inter-sexual dynamics and the general rules of how they play into a successful relationship. Being aware of the matrix means you can still play in it, or not.

I think that the goal of MRP is quite a dichotomy. We teach and lean on boys here to find their own mental point of origin as the ultimate goal. We celebrate when they can DNGAF and make decisions for themselves and their own self interest. We cast vague comments to them to make them think for themselves - or just get pissed off and call them faggots. But when they fucking "make it" we might throw a jab at them here or there, but know ultimately they're going to make the right decision of what's right for them.

Now I argue that you have reached a point where you have expanded yourself from what you used to be before MRP, to what you are now after MRP.

But MRP almost shuns open and honest communication of a problem.

The dichotomy is this: We must tell faggots here that open and honest communication IS a problem because they're doing it wrong from a place of neediness rather than abundance.

So we teach them abundance.

And I think that's because deep down, MRP is afraid of the potential for rejection of that problem when it's laid bare.

I think MRP is afraid of the potential for rejection of faggots trying to play with dynamite. We do try to be pretty careful with that. Except this is the kind of dynamite that doesn't blow up their marriages, it's the kind of dynamite that sends them back to the Matrix and kind of goes against the super vague leadership we try to gift to them. No one wants to see a dude go back to the matrix, nor should we care, but it's like seeing a commercial for starving kids in Africa - no one wants to see that shit, but we aren't going to send in our $0.30 a day to save them either. Not our circus.

No one argues or even remotely questions a man here who made the journey about his life choices, communication style, or anything else. We just sit back normally and say - Whelp, good for that dude. Not my jam, but I'm sure it works for him because I know he's not a gigantic faggot.

Which leads me to my point of why I think your post here is important, and also not important. Just like all my posts being another "way". I believe it all to be a matter of personal preference. Someone like /u/red-sfpplus who wrote a post on how he kind of hates communication because it sucks for him, and here you are writing about how it's great for you. I think you both are right in your own personal worldview of what it is that you want - as you so clearly point out here:

And I think for me, that feeling of leaving something on the table, again, included the ability to just communicate what I'm feeling with no strings attached, and have those feelings heard and acknowledged.

Red wants to fuck women's assholes and not have to hear them whining because his worldview is that he's a high value mother fucker who, by the grace of his time and attention, his woman should feelz worthy and valuable because he gives that. He has setup a dynamic that allows his frame to exude that and still accomplish his mission.

By that same token, you've setup a dynamic that has allowed you to still accomplish your mission which is to cascade yourself into the every deeper meaning of understanding the depths of love and understand another human being deeper than any other person. For that, a different type of communication is needed.

For me? I lie somewhere between the polarity of you and Red. I want both. I want to be able to deeply communicate my feelings and thoughts without words but with actions - thus, I've created a dynamic that still allows me to accomplish my mission. I've chosen the medium of that to be D/s, where I can simply look at my woman in such a way, say nothing, and she feelz through that and into me knowing my truth. That's communication on a spiritual level for me as we read into and through each other.

My point? Let's come back to something you said:

I use communication on a daily basis and it is one of the most important aspects of my marriage. Which on the surface seems extremely blue pill. But with all that I've said before, the piece that makes the communication blue pill is that communication is covert, it's guarded, it comes with expectation that is not given in the over communication.

Whether it's through overt communication (Red's style) saying something like "I like it when you wear a buttplug at the grocery store. It turns me on and makes me happy."

Or it's open and honest communication (Blarg's style) like "I need physical affection".

Or it's openly covert communication (Horn's style) like me looking at my wife across the room when she flicks her hair a certain way that makes me feel joy inside and she catches my eyes and giggles in that validation of knowing she's giving me something I enjoy...

It doesn't fucking matter, really. It's all a matter of personal preference - and that's what you've always said to me. And you're saying here in your post. Just be open with it considering the dynamic you have with your woman.

It's all communication. Just be open with it. Live in your truth, and communicate that without fear. I think it's worth pointing out that communication can take several forms... but never, ever is that form from a bluepill place of neediness.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Live in your truth, and communicate that without fear.

That nicely summarizes the key message of this post in one sentence!

But "Live in your truth" encompasses usually years of well-directed effort to develop the requisite frame, abundance, and strategic vision before a man can communicate productively, and is ready for insight beyond

We must tell faggots here that open and honest communication IS a problem because they're doing it wrong from a place of neediness rather than abundance.

No doubt this is why /u/strategos_autokrator touched on this only in his final posts, and Blarg is coming to it now.

Several years ago /u/weakandsensitive also explained both the importance of communication, and these prerequisites and cautions, in one of my all time favorite MRP posts

The point here is that words potentially offer an explicit and direct explanation of observed changes in behavior. If there is cognitive dissonance between what a recipient expects (old beta behavior) and unexpected behavior (DNGAF, AA, OI) - that tension needs to be resolved at some point. (Note: this is often resolved by the wife becoming acclimated to new behavior.)

We all know that purely talking about behavior changes doesn't work. But with the 7% verbal communication in addition to the 93% non-verbal communication, the words coupled with the actions and behavior together can be used to paint a clear picture which sets a new boundary and new set of expectations.

Once these things get verbalized in order to resolve the dissonance, it becomes infinitely more important to stay on point and to stay on message to maintain and reinforce the congruence. Otherwise, your words really don't mean jack shit at all and nothing you do deserves to be respected given the precedence you've set.

This is why if you've been congruent in behavior and mentality for an extended amount of time that has given rise to some level of dissonance, having a frank conversation about expectations is not the worst thing in the world.

/u/jacktenofhearts' insightful hamster maze comments within his post on Dread also alludes to the need for strategic communication to guide your wife, but how this only works for a high-value man who is clear on his vision and goals.


As you touch upon, what's perhaps new and interesting to MRP in /u/Blarg_Risen's OP is his vision and goal with his wife and marriage. As I read it, he seeks not compliance or submission by his wife to his frame, but a wife with her own strong, independent frame that's well aligned and compatible with his. (As this is similar to my own vision, my interpretation is perhaps biased, but he can correct me if I'm wrong.) He symbolizes the changes from her existing frame necessary to align with his new redpilled frame has her own unplugging from her matrix. I think he's arguing that leading or mentoring his wife to her own very new, independent frame that aligns well enough with his vision is a challenging task requiring nuanced verbal communication of aspects of that vision as they arise in the context of their lives.

This, too, has long been discussed now and again in MRP, most often termed as narrative. You change an independent person's frame by convincing them to adopt a new vision via the art of crafting a compelling narrative that persuades her or him. (MRP is itself a large collection of narratives expressing the MRP vision of the world that the men here have both constructed and found compelling.) The art of crafting compelling narratives to lead our wives has not (to my knowledge) been fully developed here and is anyway already better developed elsewhere in other contexts, but a search through the MRP archives for "narrative" will nonetheless unearth a few gems.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

he seeks not compliance or submission by his wife to his frame, but a wife with her own strong, independent frame that's well aligned and compatible with his.

Exactly.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it is important to discuss how /u/man_in_the_world 's use of the term "submission" IS a frame in my opinion.

For those reading along here within the context of my reply I want to say that submission is ALSO an independent frame congruent and polarized by my own independent Dominant frame.

Both frames are aligned and compatible.

In the same way us men here had to learn how to "hold frame", my wife - who holds a submissive frame against mine - still must maintain and hold frame. In our early months of formal D/s she would often discuss openly how hard it was to keep herself inside this mindset and worldview despite her bad learned wiring (bluepill) to naturally buck against it. We openly discussed how she would choose one action or feeling over another to subscribe herself more deeply to her CHOSEN frame.

Just thought it worth mentioning that subs aren't frameless. I believe it actually takes a much stronger and independent woman to CHOOSE being a submissive. It's the same work we did as men to adopt and learn our own frame through consistent congruent behavior aligned to our worldviews. Overtime, that submissive frame is more natural - as is my own.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I want to say that submission is ALSO an independent frame congruent and polarized by my own independent Dominant frame.

I can see that submission could take this form and work well (although it's not a frame or dynamic that I would find appealing in a wife.)

In my view, the point most relevant to /u/Blarg_Risen's OP is your use of narrative to guide your wife to a frame compatible with your vision that works well for her:

In our early months of formal D/s she would often discuss openly how hard it was to keep herself inside this mindset and worldview despite her bad learned wiring (bluepill) to naturally buck against it. We openly discussed how she would choose one action or feeling over another to subscribe herself more deeply to her CHOSEN frame.

You chose to build something different than Blarg did, but the tools remain the same.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

... (although it's not a frame or dynamic that I would find appealing in a wife.)

You chose to build something different than ( /u/Blarg_Risen ) did, but the tools remain the same.

Absolutely 100% correct. They're all from the same toolbox, but slightly different types which are a matter of personal preference. To bring it all full circle this is how I tried to draw dotted lines within my original reply:

It doesn't fucking matter, really. It's all a matter of personal preference

Great conversation here, gents.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Haha to be (open and honest) I was going to simply message you to start a conversation that lead to communication and how it works from your dynamic. Because i am interested in learning the idea of it (though not employing it). But I knew you'd take an interest in this idea and reply. There's one other guy I know who's going to show up at some point too. He's been waiting for this one as well. It's not red...but I would be REALLY curious and humored at his reply.

 

I do not disagree with anything you've said. I understand the thought process behind telling guys what they need to hear to advance. But also going with this comment i made recently theres something that just doesn't sit right with me telling someone a half-truth in preparation for them to go off, fail (but learn), and then be ready when they come back to tell the other half. It's probably also why I'm so verbose in my method, as a lot of the dynamic has to be outlined at once. As you said it's simply preference again. I show the solution, and make the student think about how they can get there. Others show the path, and let the student slowly take the wheel as they go.

 

As always and as we've said before, the best method may be a mix.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I was going to simply message you to start a conversation that lead to communication and how it works from your dynamic.

Like anything I'm still figuring that out. I do know a few things though.

Every communication is authentic and full of trust. Anything less than the truth is quickly read through, although I will purposefully manipulate my own emotions to accomplish an outcome that she desires, which in turn accomplishes both of our goals of my happiness being the #1 priority.

Here are a few examples of the overtly covert Dominant communication :

  • If she's been a little bitchy I may let it slide a little and STFU to see if this was a need for her to get some feelz out, but if she is a little bitchy again, I will probably shoot her a terrible scowl that she probably doesn't deserve in a non-D/s dynamic and would be considered over the top. This immediately lets her know she has not pleased me.
  • If we are in public and does something that isn't in the frame she wants to live in - even in a crowded room full of friends - a simple smile at her and rubbing my fingers across her day collar (a bracelet currently) sends her gentle communication that I desire her to be into her submissive frame. She will smile back.
  • Once in a store she yelled at me because she was anxious about something completely unrelated. She wishes overcome her anxiety issues. She immediately knew she fucked up. Got back the car and handed me her panties for the rest of the day.
  • If she has not fulfilled one of my needs, I will "punish" her, which means removing my time/attention/approval in various ways. Some Doms choose to punish physically... that's not really my thing... instead I choose to take away her ability to please me which is usually enough. This is all done overtly covert. I tell her she has been bad, then actions speak afterwards. If the D/s dynamic has become a little broken (which it does at times - it ebbs and flows), I will employ more severe punishments.

Conversely, here's some about when things go well:

  • She tried to make a new meal, and was anxious about it. I let her remain anxious throughout and knew she sought my approval. Instead, I gave my approval with a good, hard fucking instead of a "thank you this was good" which is what she really needed. This creates the roller coaster of feelz.
  • For V-day this year she wrote me a card, made a great dinner, asked to blow me 4x during the day, and planned an in-home date-night complete with a full massage for me. I wanted her to know how joyful this made me, so I made time for her the next day for 6 hours just to hold her and provide comfort.
  • She fixed her hair different today than normal. From across the room I looked at it - it looked great! It brought joy to me. I kept looking at her, feeling through her, and looking at her hair. She says, "oh do you like my hair? Does it make you happy?" I just smiled.

Overall, this is all very very psychological and spiritual. She reads into me. I read into her.

Now, I could just come out and say all this to her, sure. It'd likely have the same effect - but instead I allow her hamster to do all the heavy lifting, which helps me accomplish my mission of bringing her to a more submissive state to where the communication becomes more and more subliminal over time. That way, we both can freely live in word-less communication feeling through each other and our respective needs. That is what I'm trying to accomplish.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Interesting. I understand such communication could exist, I don't understand how you would get to that level of, for lack of a better word, telepathy, without overt communication.

 

But you say you let her hamster do the work. So do you feel that:

  • You are consistent and congruent enough that what you do to communicate is received clearly and you both are on the same wavelength?

Or

  • You aren't necessarily concerned with her interpretation of the message as long as her actions provide what you want?

 

Theres for sure instances where ive established enough of an understanding where merely a look communicates something like "I don't approve, you know what I'm talking about, and you know how to act".

There's also plenty of instances where we are coincidentally on the same wavelength without any communication.

And I can see in your case that even if the exact message you send isn't received in the way you intended, but her response is within some amorphous realm of "good enough" then there's no need for further communication.

 

But also I'm trying to separate out if there's some amount of "settling" on your part where you are afraid to communicate what's needed and are settling for her response. (That idea sounds like an attack on your model. It is not, the intent is understanding).

 

Side discussion: Is your D/s dynamic "on" all the time? Or at your whim? Or is this a dynamic you both "get" in the same way you both "get" it when you communicate?

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

for lack of a better word, telepathy, without overt communication.

Telepathy is a good word to use and I don't take offense to it. It's really about NEEDS and making sure that we both do our best at all times to read through each other's energy, words, and actions (or inaction) to see the underlying message and "read the code" of the matrix.

I encourage her to become overt when there is a "need" she is missing. We do this through daily check-ins where I ask her a series of questions that are ritualized. I sense through her and decide whether to go overt with my communication, just let her get her feelz out, or take some action (i.e. - she gives a valid shit/comfort test that is rooted in something I know I need to do differently- which I view as a gift). I am the one who makes the determination of what her overt communication really, if anything, means... and she trusts me to make that decision in her submission.

So do you feel that:

You are consistent and congruent enough that what you do to communicate is received clearly and you both are on the same wavelength?

Or

You aren't necessarily concerned with her interpretation of the message as long as her actions provide what you want?

It's a little bit of both. I bolded "what you do to communicate" - what I do is training, both overt and covert. I train her through overt actions and dominance to learn and do things that please me. I train her covertly by using my time, attention, and ability to pass tests. She learns through that training how to please me, and through that "I'm such a valuable good girl to my Dom" mental model - she feels great and valuable herself knowing there is no other woman who can please me in such the unique ways that she does.

One could say this satisfies her deep need of hypergamy of being the top pick, thus adding great confidence, value and worth to her life of being with a high value man.

It doesn't beat hypergamy, but changes the rules around it.

In terms of her interpretation of the message - I am not concerned as long as her actions are within the bounds of doing what I desire. I don't make the hamster maze too complicated, and make for an easy exit. Example - I tell her I want a new meal cooked, and high in protein. She finds two options. "Horns would you like this beef dish, or this chicken one?" I just pull her into me and look her in the eyes, smiling, knowing either would be fine. "Ok, Horns, I'll make the beef one. I think you would like that one better tonight, but I"ll make the chicken one tomorrow."

Do I care which one she makes? Nah. Not really. But I follow that up with a larger smile which encourages and trains her to take initiative to please me - which is the outcome I want.

Or maybe I'm in the mood for chicken. "I'd like the chicken dish tonight." She will be giddy knowing she had interpreted my need subconciously somewhat and will still be happy.

some amount of "settling" on your part where you are afraid to communicate what's needed and are settling for her response.

Replace beef and chicken with blowjobs and anal and you'll see how that works in the bedroom. Sometimes I have preferences for outcomes, sometimes not. Sometimes I just decide what we're having for dinner and she does it. Sometimes she surprises me with fish.

I'm never afraid to communicate overtly what I want, but I would rather her have learn a toolbox FULL of ways to add value to my life. Sometimes I want a specific thing, so I'll say that. In those cases she is more than happy to do that because it is a trained skill - and she knows that she is either good at it or is given an opportunity to improve on it. That training is done overtly or covertly as mentioned before.

Is your D/s dynamic "on" all the time? Or at your whim? Or is this a dynamic you both "get" in the same way you both "get" it when you communicate?

The D/s dynamic is an undercurrent of everything that happens all the time and is always "on"... but it's like the light above the sink that you leave on all day and night. You don't really notice it or ever turn it off, but if for some reason it accidentally gets turned off you think "better turn it back on - that light is always on to light the way in the dark".

We both "get" it in the same way we "get" the communication. We don't really talk about the exchange of power or the exchange of minds much. It just kind of stays on - like the light you don't notice.

If you met us in real life we look like a normal couple and would never know. I think that's part of the beauty of this arrangement and relationship - we have a little secret that we keep from the world and it's exciting and sacred. No one knows about her dirty little secret except for me - so she gets to live out the constant fantasy of being a little submissive slut when no one knows, completely eliminating ASD and freeing her body and mind to be true to her core desires. This trust is immense and she gives it freely knowing I would always honor her needs - even above mine - in a way that ultimately serves me.

Could I command her at any time to kneel in public? To blow me? Sure. Would she do it? Absofuckinglutely. No questions asked. But I don't abuse her gift of submission.

We could be at dinner in public and I could command her to go to the bathroom and masturbate until her panties are wet and then return them to my pocket. No one would know. Except us. And as she sat there with her wet little pussy at dinner, every single drip would remind her that I'm the one who owns her body, not her. That does something to the female psyche that neither of us are be able to explain in words.... we just do it with a smile and a gentle headnod of approval.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Interesting. Kudos to her. It sounds that while you carry the frame, she still has to grow and show plenty of effort to grow herself in it. Something i assumed incorrectly about a sub. Do you have a book that talks about your dynamic?

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My guess is your assumptions were based on the misconception that D/s is also Master/slave (M/s). That is a variant of D/s that most people assume is how the D/s power exchange is because of the public shit dumbass M/s couples do... like walking a man down the street in full leather on a dog leash or making a slave human furniture. Slaves generally give up ALL control of their daily actions unlike submissives who have a mind of their own.

M/s seems like having to take care of a mindless child and I dont really enjoy that idea.

I do enjoy shaping my submissive into an always better version of her true self.

I can recommend The Loving Dominant although I must caution that it tends to err more on the side of physical punishment of a sub as well as masochism with a sub - which is not my jam. It was written by a husband and wife and allows you to see the psychology of both sides. Submissive Guide is a good source of information as well but she has since transitioned more to a M/s relationship in private.

[–]InChargeManMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good stuff in this thread. Don't have the time to get into it, glad to see you carrying the torch!

[–]Balls_Wellington_Wrong.2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

theres something that just doesn't sit right with me telling someone a half-truth in preparation for them to go off, fail (but learn), and then be ready when they come back to tell the other half

When I was younger I was big into wrestling and martial arts. For both, there were certain techniques that we wouldn't let our beginners use, because they built or reinforced bad habits. Sometimes they were prone to causing injury, but just as often they just prevented someone from developing the right muscle memory to use their full strength.

Once they hit a sufficiently advanced level, we let them start incorporating those techniques into sparring and competition. At that point, they were able to make decisions like "this way to kick is faster but weaker" or "this throw is easily countered, but if he isn't ready for it the match is over." They were also strong/flexible enough to use more dangerous moves without blowing their knees out.

Same thing is going on here. At six months in, I'm not ready for some of this. I'm not in a place of true abundance. I'm still getting in shape. I've cut out validation seeking behavior but I still experience the desire.

If I tried to have an open and overt conversation about my needs with my wife, it would almost certainly break down into DEERing when the conversation strayed into an area of my vision that is poorly defined.

I'll get there. But I'm not there yet.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really like this analogy.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We’re not telling them half-truths. You’re at a point where you can make your woman do what you want (listen to your feelings). That has zero to do with how you got to the position where you can make her do that. We teach men how to get their women to submit - what they make her do is up to them.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '200 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You mean to tell me that there's more than one way to do this Alpha shit?

/u/Alex_J_Anderson was right all along.

[–]Cl_ARK2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good stuff, Blarg. I relate.

I want to feel everything, and then be able to handle it.

Exactly. I'm in a place where I feel totally comfortable with stripping away some of the things I had built up as mechanisms to help me stand on my own. I want to feel my feelings, and I want to experience my wife's feelings too...without judgement. Good and bad...and splash around in them. When they cease to be scary, you see that feelz are really where life is lived and you can just experience it for what it is.

And they asked me what specifically I defined as love, and how my wife could go about bringing that feeling out.

For me, nothing makes me feel that quite like my wife exposing her vulnerable self to me...the thoughts and feelings she feels like I wouldn't want to hear, or that she's certain would scare me off if I knew. Things I'd have shamed her for in my old mental model. Now that's where I want to be. It's her choice to go there, of course. But I'd like to lead in this same direction.

Now, maybe this all blows up in my face and I'm digging my own Blue grave. Good news is that I'm OK with however it turns out. I'm not judging myself based on my old metrics. I know how to fix it, and I know how to walk away if I need to.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '202 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I want to expand on something you touched on, because a lot of the nuance is liable to be lost in translation.

The things we do say to inflict change, our audience needs to be ready to hear.

Every relationship has a power dynamic by design. Therefore, every choice you make regarding communication (subconsciously or consciously, whether to do so verbally or non-verbally) is a strategic gambit whether you recognize it or not.

In the context of the redpill, that means interpersonal communication should be conscious and intentional choices geared toward influencing others to get the results you want.

In other words, why communicate if it's going to put you at a disadvantage? For most of us, we've said things that are incongruent and unattractive. Those statements may have been open and honest communication, but in hindsight you might realize they were terribly ineffective.

Might as well Shut The Fuck Up.

You seem to be suggesting that since men are naturally inclined to communicate overtly, we shouldn't throw out one of our best tools. Which makes a lot of sense. Hell, it's not even that controversial of an idea. Commandment XII: Maximize your strengths; minimize your weaknesses. Interpersonal communication is inescapable, so you might as well control the message, or at least not suck at it, or at least understand it. Right?

Personally, communicating covertly isn't second nature to me and I have a tendency to come off as passive aggressive, so any time spent developing those skills will be shoring up a weakness, not building upon a strength. That's not ideal.

Another problem is the element of trust. If you're leaning on open and direct communication, you're trusting that they will accept the message at face value. You can never be certain that the message will be received as intended.

Enter Wiio's laws.

What happens when there's little trust between you and the person you're communicating with?

What happens when your message is likely to get manipulated toward the other person's ends?

What happens when you freely give and receive what you think and feel, and are consistency hurt in the process?

In these scenarios, you are not likely getting the results you want.

I've written about this previously. For red pillers moving beyond the idea of Shut The Fuck Up, there are rules of engagement for strategic communication within the context of a relationship...

Foremost among them is brevity.

You can't communicate strategically if you have no frame for the other person to step into or your own mental point of origin. You cannot have frame without outcome independence. You cannot have outcome independence without abundance.

You can't communicate strategically with others unless you can have a healthy and constructive self-dialogue and understand how to properly maintain your power.

You can't communicate strategically if you don't properly manage your body language and intonation.

You can't communicate strategically if you're not listening/not keeping your mind in the present moment and you're just waiting for the other person to stop talking.

...and on and on and on. Interpersonal communication is complicated, and it's easy to fuck it up.

We fail at this stuff all the time. At least, I do. Maybe it's because my love language is blowjobs and not "words of affirmation."

These are just some of the reasons why Shut The Fuck Up is such a simple and powerful heuristic, to the point where its application has become accepted wisdom. It's simpler for faggots to implement.

To conclude, you've brought up some very important points worth considering. Our wives aren't mind readers. I think open and honest communication can be an effective tool, but for most of the MRP guys (myself included) it's an advanced level curriculum. In any case, these ideas are worth exploring further and you've inspired me to write up a post on communicating strategically.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Another problem is the element of trust. If you're leaning on open and direct communication, you're trusting that they will accept the message at face value. You can never be certain that the message will be received as intended.

Or, you're trusting that if they don't understand something, they will ask for clarity.

But what's more important is your list of fears to back up this point you have made. So what if they turn it against you? So what if they do any of what you mentioned?

The antidote is being your own mental point of origin. Your moral compass guides your life, not hers. Your opinion of yourself is what matters most, not hers. If she can't meet your needs, or refuses to even try, then there are literally billions of other women out there and odds are one of them will.

If that's not an option for you, then you need to ask yourself if it's really a need that must be met.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '201 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’re right. I still struggle with being driven by fear, but this thread has been a welcome reminder that getting hurt is part of living. More than that, it’s the tuition for some of life’s most valuable lessons.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I mean, sure don't suck at communicating. But that's not the message here.

 

You can never be certain that the message will be received as intended.

Not my problem if they do not take the message at face value. But it is my problem to lead them to a realization that this relationship will work best of they do. Especially if ive been incongruent through my messages in the past.

 

What happens when there's little trust between you and the person you're communicating with?

You build that trust.

What happens when your message is likely to get manipulated toward the other person's ends?

You tell that person stop being shitty.

What happens when you freely give and receive what you think and feel, and are consistency hurt in the process?

You come to understand the burden you bear.

 

There's an element of truth behind strategic communication. If you haven't read this before, you might like it.

I think the ultimate summary for your reply here is: Do you want that in your relationship? If so, carry on. If not, then why foster it?

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '202 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You build that trust.

That's where I'm at in my journey.

I had to un-fuck a lot of my bullshit to get to a place where open and honest communication with my wife was even possible. Even so, it's necessary for me to be strategic and mindful so as not to say unattractive, incongruent shit. In other words, I'm figuring out how to trust myself to live fully in my own frame.

I think the ultimate summary for your reply here is: Do you want that in your relationship? If so, carry on. If not, then why foster it?

Spot on. It took a long time for me to realize I was fostering poor communication in my relationship and getting manipulated. I'm grateful for you sharing some wisdom.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Random thought: It is probably much more powerful for a guy to do something "unattractive" but congruent after he's indicated to a woman that he can, if he chooses, be attractive, but chooses congruency. There's still a base level of attraction you need of course...but this speaks to your quote:

it's necessary for me to be strategic and mindful so as not to say unattractive... shit.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '200 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Very interesting. Example?

[–]Cl_ARK2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think /u/HornsofApathy nails the missing piece:

We must tell faggots here that open and honest communication IS a problem because they're doing it wrong from a place of neediness rather than abundance.

In terms of my wife, I've generally got little use for manipulating the power dynamic to my strategic advantage in my marriage. I don't want anything from her that she doesn't want to provide. That's abundance. And that frees her to usually go above and beyond what I'd ever ask for, in ways I'd never expect.

Not to say there's never a tactical use for it. But as a standard operating procedure, letting her flitter and flutter around like a little girl is more interesting and beneficial to me than having her act "right". I've had both...the latter is excruciatingly dull.

What happens when you freely give and receive what you think and feel, and are consistency hurt in the process?

That's life, man. Feel the hurt. Look at why the pain is so great. It will usually tell you something about yourself.

[–]sea-teaseUnplugging2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I print what I feel are the most important posts here and am compiling my MRP "bible." This goes in. Between /u/hornsofapathy epic test (and the comments contained) and then this, I've been able to add more. This post should be only able to be opened by those who've been at it for a year or so, as it would have made me think I found a shortcut. In my final one year OYS, I outlined that I red pilled my wife. (Not every little thing, there has to be some mystery). But, FOR US, it was time. But as Horns stated, it was from a place of OI and abundance, AFTER a year of brutal work on myself. Blarg, this is a TL/DR. Too long, DO read. A great, advanced missing piece you've helped me codify.

[–]mickey__1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

why dont you share with us your collection?

[–]sea-teaseUnplugging6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not a fan of shortcuts. Do your own search, build your own bible

[–]Red-Curious2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent post, brother. This is truly good stuff. I find myself on the other end of the conversation when people tell me: "You've said what I've been thinking for some time, but didn't know how to put into words."

I started to type a longer reply, but it eventually evolved into a post of its own, as I continued to process some things (here - though I imagine the direction I take things might not be of particular interest to you).

One thing that I didn't address in that post is the similarity I see between "feel, think, do, communicate" and the Myers-Briggs typology, which I've researched quite a bit.

  • I/E - The introvert/extrovert spectrum addresses how you receive information from the world - internalizing what you observe from the sideline, or interacting with it. This is just you experiencing it and how you prefer to do so.

  • N/S - The intuitive/sensor dynamic is about how your brain processes the information you receive from the world. Do you see what you've experienced in terms of details or conceptual patterns, for example?

  • T/F - The thinker/feeler dichotomy is about how you act on what you've processed. Some people will, upon processing the information they've received from the world, make decisions on what to do with that information based on what feels right to them, whereas others will do whatever is most logical.

  • J/F - The judger/perceiver spectrum is perhaps the one point where the 4 start to differ. This is less to do with how you communicate your decisions and everything to do with the framework within which we implement them. Judgers, for example, will stick to rules, planning, and procedure, whereas perceivers will generally tweak the structures to their own preferences and operate on pragmatic reality over technicalities.

I'm not sure how relevant that is to you, but I thought it an interesting comparison worth sharing.

[–]amalgamator1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes - this is the “collaborative alliance” that Dr. David Schnarch talks about achieving. Both of you realizing the shit you both were pulling and now you both bringing your “best self” to the marriage. It’s rare but I think it’s the ultimate goal, for me at least.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Careful thinking that way. She didn’t realize shit - he had frame, so she fell in line. We never heard of any sort of collaboration on MRP, only women submitting to men once they alphaed up.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In some way, i think a big part of unplugging for women, just like it is for men, is seeing just what you're up against in terms of marriage.

After a big event years ago, I found out my wife was looking up divorce lawyers, apartments, and posting on some forum "my husband is into red pill. I don't know what to do. I don't have a lot of independence financially so supporting myself and the kids would be difficult...and (I still laugh at this) I don't want to share "MY" kids."

 

I think a lot of the false sense of power we have comes from the fact that we think we can just throw up deuces and walk. But for both sexes, doing the research is eye opening.

For men here, that's why I say go get papers, make a plan, then become ok with executing it. For her, I think that slap of reality made her reassess just which way the scales were leaning. I think over time we've both come to know and feel comfortable that we can leave if we choose, but for right now we choose not to.

[–]amalgamator4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Once you develop rock solid frame - it’s like couples tennis. You two vs the world. She actually chooses you and you choose her. Out of abundance, not obligation.

It doesn’t mean there aren’t regressions, but you are able to quickly come out of them.

Someday I’ll have to write up my experiences more. We did and still do David Scharch style Crucible therapy with a therapist trained by him. It really helped having an independent 3rd party calling both of us out. For example, me using sex for validation-seeking and her not developing her own sexuality and her indulgent suffering-victim role she played so well. This style of therapy isn’t like typical attachment-based therapy. It is a differentiation-based approach. It is not a safe space but a high-pressure crucible that creates a critical mass for change.

Both of us were simply blind to ourselves and the poor examples that we had from our parents. Honestly, we were set up to fail - how could it have happened any different really? The therapist helped us to see that we needed to either BOTH bring our best selves to this marriage or choose to end it. It was amazing to have the therapist call out my wife for her underfunctioning and avoidant/fearful style of dealing with conflict.

[–]EasyDaysHardNightsGrinding like Grandpa1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I endorse this approach ... once the man has Frame. Before that point, as /u/Sepean puts so eloquently, you are just having a "Do you like my dissected boobs?" conversation.

Once a man has Frame as /u/strategos_autokrator lays out in his post 4 years ago, as a baseline discussion, he can and SHOULD have an open discussion about his needs as /u/youngscott18 points out so well in his comment.

Being an "MRP Approved" contributor, certainly implies you have Frame in your marriage, which is why this works. Your post also hints around the edges at Frame, as your 4 layer model includes Emotion (Level 1) and Thought (Level 2). Which are two of the Elements in /u/strategos_autokrator's model. You also briefly mention Vision in this comment:

What communication in my marriage is however is a direct line to and from my vision.

That quote acknowledges the existence of a third of the 4 vertices in the tetrahedron. The only one you didn't mention in your post is Physical. So, I really do think Frame is a base assumption in what you are proposing as /u/Over60_FireTempered3 points about below.

What is different here, that I see you advocating for, is that IN ADDITION to a needs based discussion, the man should lead his LTR into the understanding of the necessary mental models that allowed him to unplug himself and eventually get to a place where he has Frame.
That:

Your wife has not received the same help and guidance you have [here at MRP] to build herself a working mental model in adulthood and marriage.

I've done this with my own wife to a very beneficial effect. She and I have a lexicon in place now which allows us to call out the BS in each other's behaviors and make observations (positive and negative) that we see in our social circles.

I'll never forget the first time she applied the words "ego protection" in context and called something out I missed in an interaction. It helped me snap to something that was going on that I quite possibly would have blown past. I was grateful for assistance and acknowledged as much. She was quite proud of herself for seeing it and relished in the fact that she had done us both a good service. Which she had. Her focus going forward has been on serving us and our relationship.

As a side effect, I do think sharing these models accelerated our own relationship to a positive place of submission much faster and with less need for shit and comfort tests. In fact, I never went through a "a main event". The shifting point came when I was on a business trip and my wife calls me out of the blue to say:

What if my own behavior has been getting in the way of us progressing as a couple all along?

After getting home and "reconnecting" there was a very tender moment of her heaving tears and even a few snot bubbles. There was no "moving her stuff out of the bedroom" or the other antics we see posted here. She simply hamster-ed herself into realizing how her own behavior was holding us back as a couple and the natural outcome was submission.

The most interesting aspect of your post, to me, is the perspective on communication. I don't think it's an internal vs. external communication model s you imply. I also think external or interpersonal communication happens at all 4 basis on the Frame model.

I think /u/HornsOfApathy's commentsregarding intuiting another's state, needs and desire's via a D/s relationship point to a form of Physical communication that occurs in open dialogue as required but also clearly pushes the other aspects of Emotional and Intellectual Frame.

The angle that's most curious to me ... and I'm going out on a limb here is interpersonal Physical communication that's not possible through dialogue. I'm talking about things like how two women's periods get in synch if they live together long enough. Or mammalian groups (of which we, as a couple, are one) have out of phase sleep cycles where one will be at a deeper phase of sleep while the other is a lighter more easily disturbed phase, possibly for alertness and safety purposes. That type of "coordination" does not happen with any dialogue at all, but creates a deeply interesting set of questions around what communication is happening at the biological / physical level. That's way off topic though.

On Thoughts and Emotions being internal ... I don't think that is true. We intuitively know when someone is not in a good place Mentally or Emotionally. Our "gut" senses it, possibly from Non-verbal indicators like facial expressions, but also through behavioral patterns, like withdrawing from the group or changes in behavior, like "locking your phone." These things invite dialogue, but to the points above ... they go poorly or fall apart without Frame and / or shared mental models and shared desire to work through the problem.

[–]youngscott181 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Solid post!

I've done this with my own wife to a very beneficial effect. She and I have a lexicon in place now which allows us to call out the BS in each other's behaviors and make observations (positive and negative) that we see in our social circles.

What are some examples of this lexicon you and your wife have developed?

[–]EasyDaysHardNightsGrinding like Grandpa2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The "lexicon" is a collection of concepts and terms that accrued and evolved over time.

In the beginning it was simply Red Pill terms and acronyms that allowed us to be referring to the same concepts. Some she took to quickly. Alpha / Beta was easy. She started pointed out various men we would come across as being either more one or the other.

Some terms were a bit harder to float ... like AWALT. Until she started exhibiting behaviors that RedPill aphorisms pointed out. Like "A woman would rather be miserable than bored." For my wife, she was happy to point out her mother being like that ... but didn't see herself that way ... until she came home and described how she'd rather have the life we have, despite some challenges we're working through at the moment than be one of the other ladies she was having lunch with which were bored out of their minds. When I called her on it, it was at that point she realized how Red Pill concepts really could apply to her. That she also had the capacity to be just like other women. Notice ... I NEVER could have called her out, if I hadn't already established Frame. She would have just blown the concept off, or excused it.

After that moment, when other similar aphorisms started hitting home for my wife, it allowed me to introduce the concept of Ego Protection. She took that on and really started hamster-ing her own behaviors and the behavior of other women she knew. Of course, the more she examined them with a more critical eye, the more they came to light.

We're now at a point where we are making up our own terms. One particular phrase we've taken on board ... that powerfully opens the others mind during conversations is "Question Everything." It's become both a standard and a bit of a rallying cry for both of us. It's something we put out there when we want to challenge our own beliefs or really push the beliefs the other is operating under. It's a safe way to say to each other ... "You seem to be operating under a belief at the moment that doesn't serve you, or me. Let's see if there's a more effective belief that we could adopt about X."

Another phrase we have is "We Go There." It's a signal that we have an agreement to go into conversations about topics that would not necessarily be acceptable in "polite company" but that's just not how we operate anymore as a couple. It could be something along the lines of ... "I have something I'd like us to talk about, and since We Go There ... I want to talk about X (e.g. ... a Threesome ... an open Marriage ... or D/s ... or whatever .... Those are all real topics we've discussed). It's been a way we have both been able to put on the table conversations and talk through them without immediately firing off the hackles of the other person. Notice ... this last one has taken a ton of trust building and established history of respecting each other's boundaries as we talk through each topic. All the ground work of the conversations above have made that possible though.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Notice ... this last one has taken a ton of trust building and established history of respecting each other's boundaries

I am joyful that I have a relationship model that, like you, allows us to go deeper into discovering the ever evolving deepness of our core spirit and desires - unafraid of any judgement, nor considering it - reinforced by the presence of trust.

[–]EasyDaysHardNightsGrinding like Grandpa1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks Horns. I'm not quite at Joy yet. It's been a rough year. The boat is on fire but the Captain and FO are finally in synch and working to tackle the challenges around us. Hope and gratitude is probably the best way to describe my state now. Hope for our future and grateful to have found this place.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Teach your woman how to use a bucket and she will put out the fires herself just to add value to your journey.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Interesting thoughts. On the topic of unnoticed communication (periods, gut, etc)...in certain...influenced...mental states I have had the opportunity to notice each and every input your body recieves. I havent been able to observe it enough to really understand it but at the time I was simply AWESTRUCK by the body language, the signs, and especially the SMELLS we don't detect on a conscious level. No joke there is definitely biological communication going on that we are too oblivious to harness.

Definite respect to the specific lingo with your wife. I don't have as many phrases yet, but I definitely see the advantage of clear jargon.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]EasyDaysHardNightsGrinding like Grandpa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This research by Dr Arnaud Wisman, a Psychologist at Kent, expands on previous studies which have concluded that humans can communicate and detect emotions such as fear or sadness through scent. 

I have a theory that this is at least partially why video conferencing feels so flat compared to "in person" visits.

[–]johneyapocalypseTold Death to Fuck Off - MRP is easy mode / MOD1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice work dude.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks bro.

[–][deleted]  (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

women are an absolute pain in the fucking ass and that I am SO glad I have not gotten married or had kids.

I agree with the second half. I think you imply the first half because women happen to be who you marry and have kids with. Do you think if you married and had kids with another dude these same scenarios and ideas about communication wouldn't apply? Honest question.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]lefty929-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It was more commentary that stems from how insane it is that people (myself included) in red pill subs go to such GREAT lengths to successfully co-exist with women while women merely get to go through life being whatever it is their hormones and our society shape them to be.

Disagree. This is a generalization.

Plenty women in life read more self-help and personal development than you do, work harder than you to keep in shape, and many probably spend more energy challenge the beliefs they grew up with than you do. Just because you choose not to see it doesn't make it true.

This doesn't mean our sexual strategies are completely different. They are. But acting like not a single woman cares to improve herself? Lol.

I guarantee you not one woman on this planet has EVER put a similar amount of thought and effort into who they are as a person or their place within a relationship in the way you have.

Eh, that's just a sad thought you have. Sounds like you are a better fit for MGTOW than MRP

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Hmm, sounds reasonable om the surface of it, but it really isn’t.

Communicating how you feel, especially regarding needs, weaknesses and vulnerabilities, is just universally bad. There is zero mileage in it, it will hurt your alpha.

And she will never help you or ease your feelings because of your feelings, or think you’re manly for sharing and communicating. She’ll do it because of the alpha you demonstrated previously. I’d wipe my wife’s ass if she broke both her arms, not because it is sexy but because she was sexy before and she will be again. In the same way, your wife can handle you being a baby sometimes.

I agree that we have feelings, and we need to work with them. I feel hunger and desire food - that’s a source of some enjoyable experiences, and something I have to manage to stick to my macros. It’s not any different with love or whatever, it’s something I feel and I’ll be miserable if I pretend it didn’t exist. But just like hunger, thinking that any emotion is well calibrated to guide my behavior is just wrong. Your life will be much better if you’re disciplined about it.

It is much easier to just handle your needs by telling her what you want her to do. You don’t need to justify it with how you’re feeling, you donkt need to share. You’re alpha, high SMV, established dominance, she’ll do what you want, just tell her what to do.

If you really need to communicate all your feelings, you can do that. Just like you can eat ice cream on a cut. If your frame is strong, you got a lot of wiggle room to get away with a lot of shit too. Maybe a better analogy is, if you make a lot of money in your business, you can waste money on a lot of stupid stuff in private. And that’s a good point, you’ll be miserable if you don’t enjoy the sweet life sometimes, and maybe sharing is your thing.

But we shouldn’t pretend that frivolous spending is good, that ice cream has its place in a cut, or that communication works. It’s just shit you can get away with if your game is tight elsewhere.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Communicating how you feel, especially regarding needs, weaknesses and vulnerabilities, is just universally bad. There is zero mileage in it, it will hurt your alpha.

If you are looking for mileage or alpha status through communication then I think anyone would have to agree communication will hurt it.

 

The difference here is, I don't care about keeping track of my alpha ratio. That burden is on her if she is keeping that score. I am who I am. If we don't work, we don't work.

Now, if she needs more alpha, is she free to tell me "I need you to fuck me hard?" Or something similar? Yeah. Will I change my ratio in that moment to satisfy her? Yeah. But its not because i am trying to jump through her hoop. It's because she has communicated a need. I can decide whether i want to meet that need and if it's a task I deem acceptable (an often provided example here is if you're up in the kitchen and she says "can you get me a glass of water?") I will. Or, if I just don't feel like getting her water. I won't. I do or don't because of what I feel like doing...not because of the consequences affect on her idea of me in her head.

 

This of course has a don't eat paint where if what you are doesn't work in that it doesn't usually result in effects that you want (a person who wants to kill can't just kill and be free because he doesn't care how society views him, or, a blue pilled guy can't keep a quality relationship because he feels like being a giant gaping vagina). But we won't break into that depth here.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you are looking for mileage or alpha status through communication then I think anyone would have to agree communication will hurt it.

It will hurt it regardless.

The difference here is, I don't care about keeping track of my alpha ratio. That burden is on her if she is keeping that score. I am who I am. If we don't work, we don't work.

Well, you’re giving people advice, so you should be aware. Just because you don’t care, that doesn’t make it alpha. What you want, your ideal behavior, that isn’t perfectly calibrated for maximum alpha.

What you’re describing here sounds like “I’m alpha enough that I can get away with indulging some blue tendencies, plus it’s good for passing comfort tests”. It’s like eating ice cream on a cut. Sure it can work, but it’s not next level dieting.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not trying to be alpha.

I'm not advising that doing this is alpha.

If you are trying to be maximum alpha, if youre even holding alpha on a pedestal, then you have missed a lot of advice this place has been giving out. Alpha is an idea. Beta is an idea. Whatever mix of those ideas that YOU WANT to be are unique to you. There is no "goal alpha" that you should be shooting to achieve here.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not advising that doing this is alpha.

Good. You should lead with that, because it sounds like you think it is.

If you are trying to be maximum alpha, if youre even holding alpha on a pedestal, then you have missed a lot of advice this place has been giving out.

I’m not trying to be maximum alpha. Like you, I’m alpha enough that I have a ton of leeway to do what I want and still have a submissive, loving wife. But I don’t post about all that other stuff because that’s just me goofing off, it isn’t relevant to this sub and certainly not something I’d want anyone to think helps with anything.

And reading your post, I get the idea you think communicating works.

Alpha is an idea. Beta is an idea. Whatever mix of those ideas that YOU WANT to be are unique to you. There is no "goal alpha" that you should be shooting to achieve here.

Alpha and beta are traits that women respond to in particular ways. This subreddit is dedicated to understanding those mechanisms and helping men use that for better relationships.

You don’t seem to particularly care for understanding these mechanisms, which is a problem when you begin posting in a manner that seems like giving advice or providing insight. You got some stuff mixed up, like an athlete giving his lucky rabbit’s paw credit for his success.

[–]maxofreddit0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

We are speaking volumes through our actions, but not really saying anything.

Admittedly, scanned and read highlights... but this should be noted.

Our behavior (action) reflects our beliefs, and therefore how we construct the world around us. Far more than our words do. Action is the proof of the theory. When you speak, you want your lady to think “Of course that’s what he thinks, look at how he acts.”

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think this is true if we act in a congruent manner. But you know many a guy here does not. And in our growth to find not only who we are and what we want, but also how to be congruent to that, we send enough mixed messages such that she can no longer understand what our actions mean.

Because of this, some amount of words are going to be necessary to untangle the messages we've sent.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And in our growth to find not only who we are and what we want, but also how to be congruent to that, we send enough mixed messages such that she can no longer understand what our actions mean.

u/OptimusRP - You may wanna give this a read

[–]OptimusRP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you

[–]simbarlionMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Excellent GB and very timely.

I have been toying in my head how to write a FR about my ' blue pill fuck up' of starting a conversation with Mrs Simba....about physical affection....

Beautifully written, and yes it worked out for the better.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Feel free to post or PM.

[–]screechhaterMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is a great post.

But back to basics - she is your fucking mirror, and what you see is what you dealt her- as in lack of desire at some point, yes you read that right, no amount of verbal diahrea will fix this

Never forget your journey, because it’s never over, is that of the leader, that is always plotting, planning and looking over his shoulder

If you want more, give more. However, what you give must be incredibly valuable, just don’t give what you have, begundrandly

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

no amount of verbal diahrea will fix this

True. That's where I tried to draw the distinction in the post. The Talk was an attempt to use communication as a contract. That's not what communication is for. Communication is given and received freely. And her answer to The Talk, where we asked "Will you fuck me more for absolutely no change in the value I provide", was "No."

We just weren't ready for, and couldn't accept that answer.

[–]PillUpAssUnplugging0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What is anyone’s success rate with red knighting? I’ve tried on a handful of guys (and a little on my wife), and my rate is 0%. Not a normalized distribution by any means but anecdotally it appears to be rare at best. And it didn’t matter if they were old or young, married or divorced.

Now let’s take the matrix as it relates to women - most don’t want to break out of it. Why? Because it benefits them. That’s the whole reason why we unplugged, because it didn’t benefit us to such an extent that we had to find a totally different mindset.

So, as Blarg alluded to, red knighting your wife can only work if she is so incented, which I’m going to say is even less likely than red knighting a boy into a man. Why? Again, because the matrix is a pretty good deal for most women. You have to be viewed as more valuable than an entire fake matrix world geared to her favor.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I posit that a lot more people than you think are secretly afraid of the matrix, and long for freedom. It's just the work required scares them more. Hence why red lighting doesn't work.

[–]Umar_Neo0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

So I believe that there can still be scenarios where if we really wanted to, we men could live lives where the women in them still run on this natural born desire that derives from the mystery of the unknown you create and maintain. You could do this either from continuously keeping one women in the dark about who you are, or you could, over time, keep multiple women in the dark by switching whenever things started to get too familiar (playing the field).

This resounds clear. It validates what I read sapean to mean that if you don't like her move on. Though what I see you saying is that if you want the marriage then work for it, which in itself is an ambition and choice to pursue. Akin to when you said.

Live in your truth, and communicate that without fear.

The obvious danger which everyone mentioned is if your truth is garbage, even if it's yours it can still be crap. "I'm going to stand by my family including my wife no matter how much she cheats". So again I lean towards Sapean in his view of follow the rules and your more likely to be safer, though I still understand that need and desire for a more refined/mature wife without an upgrade mentality.

my idea of love was that my wife intuitively knew what to do and what made me feel loved, and acted to bring out those feelings in me, WITHOUT me having to explicitly tell her what she needs to do

So this feels beta, and I feel this often. So I usually bury the feeling and get busy doing fun stuff and addressing family needs. But it still aches. I have resolved it to beta desires for love and validation.

What I am saying though is if we put a small twist on it, we may find that we feel just as content when our wives DO understand our needs and CHOOSE to fulfill them, rather than us playing games trying to get them to "naturally" fulfill them

This is ideal. And reading Horns, it actually looks feasible, realistic and possible. Though it's important to remember this.

At the end of the day, you wife still may choose to either not listen, or not follow

Because ultimately this is largely akin to setting the narrative for leadership. Per the links of weaknsens and strategos.

But there is something I thought of on these lines I did not see fully expressed. There are three models as Horns mentioned, the expressive, the direct, and the hybrid. But all three in advanced stages have communication as coaching. It's in line with the narrative perspective that you and horns extended. That when a woman does not have a frame, does not have the aid to change her world then we as leaders need to address that need to change her world through coaching. Coaching requires communication. It's how you shorten that 1000 ft rope. This is more robust then buttplug desires, desire physical affection, or flicking the hair. I'm talking about how to cook dinner, how to deal with family drama, how to put kids to bed. Sometimes the things asked for her to follow and/or be submissive need to actually be taught. This is beneficial because it helps the leadership dynamic and you get what you need from the first officer.

IDK, after that work sometimes you want to be vulnerable and lay your head and talk about some of your concerns. Not in an affect to say I'm not getting affection so I'm going to go to the club. But to say, I'm not getting affection and it's wearing on me a little baby. I'd like to spend some time, and then accept if she listens or doesn't. Yes it's opening you to rejection and is a need. But to what sapean said, this is in spite of your Alpha not as a function of it. And if it's what you need at a time, so be it, just know it's taking from your reserve. The idea of having a reserve of alpha even feels Monkey; but it's kind of a fact isn't it.

I was curious of your alignment to my interpretation of this experience.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think the biggest piece I disagree with is:

Though what I see you saying is that if you want the marriage then work for it

 

100% no. See guys coming here full of blue pill rage are angry because they've been fighting for the marriage, holding onto one end if a rope she's dropped long ago.

Guys then go into the anger phase here where they flip. They say "fine, if you won't fight for this, then fuck this and fuck you".

After owning their shit, they find they're a prize, but some of that latent anger remains and they say "if you want to keep me, step up".

But that attitude is still keeping score, full of conflict, and a result of ego. So when I post and say you can be cooperative, guys go back to thinking "if he isn't making her fight for the marriage, then he must be fighting for it."

 

But that's not it either. I'm not fighting for it, nor am I fighting against it. I'm not fighting anymore. I'm being who I am, and if the marriage works like that, great! If it doesn't, great!

 

if your truth is garbage, even if it's yours it can still be crap.

True. And this I said, but is a whole nother topic besides communication.

 

resolved it to beta desires for love and validation.

Yes. It was a feeling I used to have. It has morphed into mutual giving and receiving freely.

 

And reading Horns, it actually looks feasible, realistic and possible.

It is feasible...i have it. I'm not sure if I made it clear or not but my post isn't theory. I've been pondering the words and time to write it since I got back 8 months ago. I'm living this and have watched it grow to fruition for some time now.

 

just know it's taking from your reserve.

You're going to have to explain how you can have this idea and not call it keeping score. If I do want to lay my head in her lap, I'm not thinking "Oh no, better alpha it up to balance this out."

 

I think the biggest difference between this "it's all about the alpha" mindset and mine is the all about the alpha rests on the notion that there is a certain "goal alpha" you have to have in your relationship that is set by your woman's hind brain that if you meet, you can do whatever. It's jumping through her alpha hoops. And I do not believe that's true.

 

The confusion lies in the misunderstanding that your wife has the capability to change herself and her fantasy of marriage just like you did. So in just the same way as if I just stopped communicating and took the "step up if you want this" route she would likely try to change herself toward that end as much as she could; then also if I am who I want to be regardless of the score, and ask her to come with me, again, she can change herself to suit that vision as well.

Put more succinctly: The alpha-is-goal mindset acknowledges her ability to change and conform but for some reason doesn't believe she can do that same thing for other mindsets/relationship dynamics.

 

The above considered then...i am in my frame when I am who I am and she changes to fit my chosen dynamic, and I am not in my frame if I'm just being alpha to get her to follow.

[–]Umar_Neo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm being who I am, and if the marriage works like that, great! If it doesn't, great!

Who I was, created anger at myself. So we focus on building a new me. There is no strategy, roadmap (aside from the MAP/DREAD which is more like a toolbox then a map), destination; it's an adventure and you never know where you will end up. That's how this experience has been for me. I've seen guys who were arrogant, but often they had the latent anger you were talking about and burned down everything to prove to themselves they made it. Therefore, who I am is never really constant. Am I validation seeking? Am I beta in many ways? Am I clingy and needy? Probably on all accounts. When will I know I'm not clingly, validation seeking etc. IDK. Therefore, we chase the alpha-is-goal. I see three solutions:

  1. Force a DNGAF, which is forced fake and loaded with beta tendencies.
  2. Stay humble, take lumps and grow. Though here you never really stand confident.
  3. Burn it all and start over; obvious issues.

There are alot of guys who have been here a while and stuck going in circles on this.

It has morphed into mutual giving and receiving freely.

I've seen this at times in my marriage in my RP journey, even a few times before. It's ideal. Though it feels illusive. It's as if when I get there I get cozy and then it starts to dissipate. Then I get up and get back to work, but then I'm working for it again instead of for me.

just know it's taking from your reserve.

You're going to have to explain how you can have this idea and not call it keeping score. If I do want to lay my head in her lap, I'm not thinking "Oh no, better alpha it up to balance this out."

It is keeping score, score of myself and my progress. If I lay in her lap I know that if I do it for too long I'm not working on me, my mission, etc. But damn sometimes I just want to leave the world and be comforted. Rest and get up and get back to it. But that comfort is like a trap, so I keep score so I don's spend too much time there.

then also if I am who I want to be regardless of the score, and ask her to come with me, again, she can change herself to suit that vision as well

i am in my frame when I am who I am and she changes to fit my chosen dynamic, and I am not in my frame if I'm just being alpha to get her to follow.

This again is the cycle I find myself in. I go east she follows, then I realize I should go south, she readjusts then follows. Then I go south east, she doesn't follow and I say hmm.. I ignore for a while and when she doesn't follow, whether it's good or bad, I say to myself, well I guess I better alpha it up so she is on board. This logic seems sound, but maybe this is part of my weakness in my journey.

Appreciate the dialouge and insight.

[–]lefty9290 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just wanted to say, not only your post, but your replies to commentors in this thread - both are incredibly insightful.

Wealth of knowledge in here from what you have written, to the replies many of which include hyperlinks, to your responses back.

This whole thread is 10/10

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

What the fuck is this?

What follows is an idea I've shared with few but I think MRP needs to hear. It goes full circle back to the very first lesson we learned when we got here.

That I was a dripping wet faggot and needed to stop?

Now you tell me the difference between the sexes where women, too, do not undergo this same type of behavioral and societal control while they're growing up.

It's a small point, but important. The big problem most guys seem to have in here isn't that they don't care about their wives and girlfriends, it's that they care too much, and project their ego onto her. Guys think they are fucking mind readers and know her motivations and incentives and assume they are aligned with his own. hence She is not on your team

But when I look at these behaviors and MRP, and notes from many of the more popular books and mantras, we seem to build our actions and reactions as if our wives are just a black box of unknowable emotions and ideas that have concrete, non-flexible structure.

No, this is a don't eat paint interpretation of it. You build your actions on whats best for you, and stop trying to figure out the internal motivations of your wife or girlfriend. Frame is thrown out here a lot, and if you take nothing else from it, take this.

Your mental point of origin is all that matters, not trying to discover your wife's mental point of origin. That's her job. [1]

It's literally like taking your heart and handing it to your wife and allowing her to either smash it, or acknowledge it. Her choice.

Again, frame. You make a decision because you know whats best for your own life and those around you. this here is a fucking covert contract:
"Here's all the information I want you to have, now make a decision ok hun?" I don't know how you can talk about leadership and not own the first fucking chance to show it in your whole post dude. The thread running through this is about communicating your feelings, negotiating desire, wrapped around flowery language and a lot of words which makes it sound more authoritative. It's not, it's a dudes hamster running wild, building a better mousetrap... for her

Communication as we understood and used it before was simply one big covert contract because "I want" meant "I expect", and was always covertly followed by "and if you don't."

This isn't communication or covert contracts, this is an ultimatum;[2] the ultimate expression of powerlessness. A covert contract would be if you don't say any of this but act as if it were true, getting resentful if she didn't do her part she didn't know.

And I'm communicating my thoughts to you openly and honestly and allowing you to make that choice yourself.

Nut up. She doesn't give a shit what you're feeling, and if your feelings are unattractive she will lose that respect for you. Whatever you hoped to achieve by running your mouth hole is useless, all she sees is someone ceding their position as the 'man I look up to'. Women communicate to process their feelings, are you a woman? Men communicate to parse information. How do you expect to parse information to someone who doesn't even use language the same way as you?

What communication in my marriage is however is a direct line to and from my vision. And that direction is given freely, with the option to be followed or ignored freely

This is whats called 'the come to jesus speech.' and has nothing to do with feelings. Assuming you're not simply talking about logistics (dinners at 6, grab the kids at your mothers etc) the purpose of this communication is to give her the structure to make decisions to remain in your life as an integral part. It doesn't happen often (ideally once) and is a one-way conversation. Other than that communication is light, flirty and sexually charged or comfort-building after you nut.

And this is the core of this: The blue pill lie

I'm gonna drop the hammer here. See the thing about my marriage now is: I use communication on a daily basis and it is one of the most important aspects of my marriage. Which on the surface seems extremely blue pill. But with all that I've said before, the piece that makes the communication blue pill is that communication is covert, it's guarded, it comes with expectation that is not given in the over communication.

You can communicate like this, not because of the work you did, but in spite of it. If you're a girls hypergamous best option, if she looks up to you, you have a ton of leeway to be a wet dripping fag. [3] Cry in front of her, talk about your feelings, whatever. For the guy who is new, this is a death sentence to a relationship and by expressing himself he's digging a bigger trench.

"Karen's taking the kids, I should emote more because she has her own mental models!"

Anyways, you should know this by now, but at the very least I'd have to have a new guy reading this think it was helpful to their situation. I've peppered in some very basic red pilled reading for those following along for some context

[1] Anon is speaking more to other women, than to men, and she's right: she is getting away with something. But she's not pulling something over on her man . . . she's pulling something over on the other women she knows. Perhaps all women.

[2] Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness because you are resorting to a direct threat to get someone to do what you want them to, and in doing so you OVERTLY confess your weak position.

[3] Hypergamy = a woman can only sustain attraction to one man at once. Either it’s you, or it isn’t.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think in a nuanced way we don't disagree with a lot of what you said. However,

stop trying to figure out the internal motivations of your wife or girlfriend.

this here is a fucking covert contract: "Here's all the information I want you to have, now make a decision ok hun?"

The thread running through this is...negotiating desire...

the ultimate expression of powerlessness

I dont think its quite understood that it doesn't matter to me what her choice is. I'm not ego invested either way. Figuring out what she wants, covert contract, and especially ultimatums depend on you trying to change her to an outcome you think she cares about, but you're also invested in. These are negated when you aren't ego invested in their outcome.

 

You can communicate like this, not because of the work you did, but in spite of it

I think you and Sepean agree the most here, but instead of the dynamic of attraction solely resting on me and the way I behave, I believe it also rests on her in that she can choose also how to behave. And this can be guided with communication. Both of us have sliding scales of behaviors and attraction. You attribute that success to being alpha enough that it doesn't matter. I attribute it to a case where we've built a common vision through action and communication.

 

In my case, again, she is free to decide on her own. She can hamster herself into thinking "he's saying and doing this because" but it's more productive if neither of us hamster and do whatever brings each of us closer to our vision. If that means her saying fuck off...thats just as ok an outcome as sweetly complying. The goal is AN outcome, not the desired outcome. Guys who are striving for only the desired outcome working with a person outside themselves always face the chance of running in circles because that person says "no". Guys who accept the outcome can communicate clearly what they want, and effectively move forward either way.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not ego invested either way.

I know you're not, you said so when you put the responsability on her to make the decision. You're saying all the right words, but I'm not seeing it mapped to action.

It's obvious she is free to decide whatever she wants, so do what you were going to do and she can leave if she wants to. That's her choice, not you throwing the responsability of choice at her with indifference.

Girls hate making decisions, specially important ones. They have anxiety over making the wrong one, so their ego drives them to sabotage the whole situation so it's 'not my fault'

Make a decision, and instead of saying you're indifferent to the outcome, actually be indifferent to the outcome and just decide and move forward. I think I see what you're getting at clearly, and it's just irksome how much this looks like you're requiring her to say the magic words, when what you're really after is compliance or action.

From a sexual parallel theres a great book by Dr David Bus (why women have sex) and if you look through their, female motivations and incentives are large and varied. This would be like asking her to decide to only want one or two movitves, and being indifferent if she doesn't want to. Instead, just fuck with some enthusiasm and let her sort out her motivations. That's the crux of it to me, like the communication is trying to change how she thinks instead of focusing on what she does.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I got you. I think you got me. And we are very close in terms of thoughts. Admittedly for some the risk/reward for doing what I'm doing properly and not fucking it up, ESPECIALLY for noobs, is not worth it. But also admittedly it would be completely hippocritical of me if at some point down the line I find out that indeed yes it's more advantageous for me to just act and let her sort it out on her own...and wasn't ok with that outcome as well. I've accepted that risk and if ever the situation arises, I will FR it in all its glory lol. I'll check out the book.

[–]Freakshow27-3 points-2 points  (34 children) | Copy Link

I’m going to hold off on judgement until someone comes in and explains wtf you just wrote.

[–][deleted]  (8 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]Freakshow27-2 points-1 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Well, yes. That’s exactly how I operate in the real world. If I don’t understand something, I find someone smarter than me to explain or simplify it.

[–]RoccoPinkmanGrinding0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your wife for instance

[–]Freakshow271 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

That’s why I’m here.

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well at least your honest with yourself. Now figure out your point of origin

[–]SBIIIMRP APPROVED Ballbuster1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

He's now waiting for someone to explain what a point of origin is.

[–]Freakshow270 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If someone used 2000 words to define it, I definitely have to phone a friend 😂

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

it's a lot of words so you may not be able to understand it. but point of origin. follow the link to Frame as well.

not sure whether you're lazy or just real dumb (don't care neither so no need to answer). real dumb probably can't be fixed. lazy maybe. being lazy is one of the most unattractive things you can be in LTR/marriage though.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If your SMV is high, you can tell a woman how you feel and she won’t shit all over you.

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

You've gotten some opinion. I'm curious now about your thoughts.

[–]Freakshow272 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

For what it’s worth, I didn’t post my 1st reply to be a dick. More of a poor attempt at humor.

I think u/part_wolf got it closest to how I see it. I agree totally that when communicating with your woman, she has to be ready to receive it. But i think that respect is the determining factor of if she is willing to receive the communication.

And once you reach the point where she respects you as a man and is willing to follow your lead, I would question if that kind of communication would be necessary?

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card / Dreadful '202 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let me get this straight. You believe that if your wife respects you and is willing to follow your lead, then open and honest communication isn’t necessary for you to lead her? Seriously?

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn’t post my 1st reply to be a dick. More of a poor attempt at humor.

I figured. But some guys hide behind humor. We're just doing our jobs to root out BS if needed.

I'm with part_wolf in his reply above. Communication is necessary.

[–][deleted]  (18 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]Tyred_BiggumsMRP APPROVED - anal on 2nd date3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Listen dude. If that’s what YOU want and gives you happiness. Then go for it.

Such anger and resentment against women. Why? They are who they are. Accept it or not. I don’t know - I love women. I don’t see them as a pain in the ass. Simply they are who they are. Do you get mad at a puppy for pissing on the floor? Do you get mad at the rain? Absorb these things. Love them. And your life is made better for it.

[–]RStonePTOfficial Counterfeit Goods0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

All women?

Even Casey Anthony?

Aside from the topic, I'd suggest you dole out that affection on a case by case basis for your own sake

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Women are a pain in the ass in the same way that squatting 200lbs is hard. For some of us, it’s fucking easy.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

That's a great analogy. Take 100 random men. Ask them to squat 200lbs for 5 reps. Only 10 of them could do it. Of those 10, half are fat fucks.

200lbs isn't even that much. It's pretty easy.

But since 90 of them can't do it, it looks hard... and only 5 of them look like they know what they're doing.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Yeah man. And just like with building strength, once your frame is there, the shit other men struggle with is just so effortless.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

How DO YOU squat 200lbs? They ask.

You work on it, you say to them.

Yeah, but what's the shortcut? They ask.

Faggots.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Here the analogy breaks down. They think that being kinky and submissive is just some inherent quality some women have. “Oh you got one of those self levitating 200lbs barbells, that’s how you squat it.”

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

They think that being kinky and submissive is just some inherent quality some women have.

I think the whole point of this post is geared toward this false-belief. Fact is, some of these dudes wives may be open to it, they just don't have the know-how to do or express it naturally. Essentially, it's red-pilling your wife. Teaching her how to express her true desires, if they are there.

When a man can say some form of "This is what I want and I can help you get to where you can give it to me. Or, if you don't want to then that's ok too" it brings either the lack of inherent quality, or the lack of inherent desire, to light. And then he knows. And can make decisions from there on how to meet those needs.

Of course, it's also an option to not do any of this and just find what you need/want outside of the marriage from one or more women that do have those inherent qualities. No one gets to tell the man which way is the "right" way, so long as he is good with his decisions and the consequences of those decisions (which is really what MRP boils down to), and I don't believe this post is trying to buck against that fact.

The men "making progress" and still not getting what they want hit the OYS thread week in and week out bitching about this exact thing. If we're generous and say they have made legitimate progress, then what they may be missing with their wife is that she doesn't "just get it" and this kind of communication can be a good way to open the conversation for her to say "Ok, but I don't know how." And now they both have a clear idea of the barrier and the endgame.

It could go a hundred ways, and there could be a hundred other reasons for why she's not at peak performance. I also see this post for the dynamite it could potentially be, being that the generousity we gave the hypothetical dude above usually isn't the case.

But it is a very good insight into a mental model that, when stacked with other traits in a man, can be effective. And for a man in OYS floundering, lost, and not sure which way to go, this may give him some clarity....

....or it could give some incel the chance to come back next Tuesday and say "So I was open and honest, and still didn't get my dick sucked and now I'm salty."

Then we can shine the light on all the other shitty qualities in himself he needs to figure out if he wants to free himself. Or just call him a faggot lol

[–]Blarg_RisenMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Spot on, as always.

 

just don't have the know-how

Or courage sometimes. My wife is hesitantly shy. I've told her a few times I would like to fuck her wearing a choker. MRPs mantra is dont buy sex shit for your wife, because shes supposed to want to buy it for you (Re: The fantasy that love and attraction is her fulfilling your wants and needs without you needing to communicate it).

Thing is, I believed it wasn't that she wasn't willing to buy them and please me, but that she was afraid she'd fuck up (buy something unattractive, misinterpret what I wanted, etc)

 

A recent conversation with her was "Here's an Amazon link to chokers I want you to wear. Yes/no."

She said "If that does it for you sure."

She wore it, and was excited at how it got me off.

Same thing with squirting.

Same thing with filming.

There's some reservations on her end, just as admittedly for some reason im also nervous TO communicate sometimes. But ultimately I communicate the want, she is free to respond. It's literally like telling guys in pickup to just walk up and say hi. She may be into you, she may tell you to fuck off. She might just be scared to talk to you as well. You won't know until you act.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

MRPs mantra is dont buy sex shit for your wife

It most certainly isn’t.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think the whole point of this post is geared toward this false-belief. Fact is, some of these dudes wives may be open to it, they just don't have the know-how to do or express it naturally. Essentially, it's red-pilling your wife. Teaching her how to express her true desires, if they are there.

If that was the point of the post, it would have said so, instead of all the “I know it goes against everything on MRP, but I believe in honest and open communication”.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Looks like we each have our own take on this post.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Looks like someone is angry.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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