~ archived since 2018 ~

Confronting the Need For Validation

April 25, 2019
82 upvotes

I think a lot about the need for validation, mostly because it gets brought up in response to nearly everything I post here.

There have been some excellent posts in MRP recently on validation-seeking behaviors and an increased understanding of where this fits into many people's marital problems.

Even posting on MRP is great for detecting validation seeking in yourself (Do I need everyone to agree with me? Do I feel the need to jump in and "defend myself" when someone calls me out?) /u/RStonePT called me out on my most recent OYS for putting something into my post specifically designed to elicit approval; I felt the immediate need to disagree, but upon reflection, he was right. The need for validation can be hard to spot within yourself.

Knowing this is an issue, I've been seeking out different approaches to removing the need for validation that I can bring into my own life. That's included listing out personal fears and then deliberately exposing myself to them each week; training myself to be mentally aware of validation seeking in my own behavior and then purposefully resisting it; and working to focus on my own pleasure and sensations during sex, rather than focusing on whether my wife is "into it" or reacting a certain way.

Though not RP, the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch also addresses the need for validation in depth, so I've been re-reading it on my current business trip.

Below I've collected Schnarch's suggestions for "Constructing Your Own Crucible;" i.e., learning to address your own need for validation and using that personal development to challenge the status quo of your marriage. I've found it useful in terms of understanding how I can directly address my own need for validation, and conceptualize what a relationship would look like without it.

I'm hopeful other people get some value out of it.

Bold language is Schnarch verbatim; non-bolded is my own paraphrasing of Schnarch's points.

How can you confront your own need for validation, and grow beyond it? How can you stop "selling yourself out" within the context of your marriage?

Confront yourself for the sake of your own integrity and personal development. It’s good for you, but it isn’t easy and won’t feel good. Stop trying to prove there’s “nothing wrong with you;” it’s not a question of whether you’re “good enough the way you are,” but a question of who you want to be.

If you’re having difficulty identifying your own issues, look at both sides of your “two choice dilemma.” How is the style or content of the dilemma personally relevant or familiar to you? Have you been through something similar before and dodged it? Think about what your partner frequently says about you, which you dispute. In what ways is it true?

Stop taking your partner’s reaction personally. Ask, why am I taking my partner’s reaction personally and getting defensive? If you think you should, what have you been doing that leads you to believe it’s all about you? If you’re not culpable, why take it personally?

Don’t count on your partner to confront herself in return. You don’t untie the Gordian knot, you cut through it. If you demand reciprocity, your partner controls you.

Forget about “working on your relationship” or the idea that “the relationship is the problem.” It doesn’t work. When you change, the relationship changes. Get what you want out of yourself, and you will either like your relationship more…or be able to do something constructive about it.

Stop focusing on what your partner is (or isn’t) doing. Focus on yourself. Focusing on yourself increases pressure on your partner to change. People who like themselves are discerning about who they spend their time with.

Stop trying to change your partner. Pressuring your partner actually reduces the pressure on both of you for change. Stop disputing their position and actually pay attention to it. Pressuring causes the partner to “dig in her heels.” Instead, clarify what you want and what you are willing to do to get it.

For solutions, look in different directions than you’ve looked in the past. Reconsider options you’ve previously rejected. Ask, “What about me would have to change - or what would I be willing to give up - in order for this to be a real option? Would I like myself if I could do this?” You will either find new options or realize what is truly non-negotiable.

Stop trying to make your partner listen, accept, or validate you.  Listen to yourself. You can’t see the situation clearly without seeing yourself clearly. Ask yourself, “What is it in me that predisposes me to see my partner in this way?”

Keep your mouth shut about your partner’s issues - particularly concerning those you’re certain are true. “Sharing” your insights about your partner’s behavior is often an expression of a need for validation. Let your partner fight with themselves, not you. Remain quiet about their issues.

Don’t identify with your feelings. The feelings we defend are often not the ones we want to keep. Stop making your feelings a core part of your identity.

Pay attention to your tone. Tone colors what you say. Not being able to modulate your tone tells you a lot about yourself and your issues. “Quietly determined” is the tone of people who have truly hit critical mass.

Own your projections as a matter of integrity. We have distorted our perceptions of reality based on our own anxieties and weaknesses. Own this reality and be able to confront it without needing your partner to “forgive” you or letting them use it to trigger you.

Acting differentiated interferes with being differentiated. Don’t try to “act” the way you think a “truly differentiated” person would act. This prevents you from actually going through the work to achieve differentiation. Stop worrying about how your partner perceives you.

Let the best in you do the thinking and talking. Difficult situations are an integral part of life. Confront the reality of your own life. Accept it as an opportunity for growth. It’s hard to admit our lives are filled with error and deception. Only accepting this, and facing the truth, gives you the opportunity to grow.

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[–]BobbyPeruMRP APPROVED34 points35 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Let your partner fight with themselves, not you. Remain quiet about their issues.

This is high level. Nice job.

[–]JCX_PulseFreedom isn't free0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Can you expand on this? This point in particular had me questioning my own motivations for being the “problem solver”, and I even have a sense of nascent guilt at the idea of not assisting someone in need of help with “their issues”.

Do the issues in question here matter? In the sense that scope and severity change the importance of being available or offering someone help? Or does it not matter at all, stfu and don’t let their issues break your frame?

This question might have more to do with why I feel the need to offer people help and white knight my way in versus the reasoning behind WHAT issues should or should not be addressed. Just looking for clarity.

[–]mindfulbutgutlessMRP APPROVED6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Do the issues in question here matter? In the sense that scope and severity change the importance of being available or offering someone help? Or does it not matter at all, stfu and don’t let their issues break your frame?

Dont offer help or solutions unless asked. Cheer the heros and boo the villains.
Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy? Sounds like you're a real nice guy

[–]JCX_PulseFreedom isn't free4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yea I have. Twice actually. I’m a textbook nice guy.

[–]mindfulbutgutlessMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well I think it is time for round 3. Did you just read or have you complete the BFA? Also lift, I can almost guarantee that when you can squat 3 plate push 2 and pull 4 you will have a different mindset regarding saying no or at least not offering help without prompting

[–]JCX_PulseFreedom isn't free1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I do lift, and I have for years. I can push 3 squat 3, but DL is new for me, so can only pull 2+ for now.

Even though I do have a half way decent physical foot print I’m not cocky or confident about it, so I am not the one bringing it up, other people are. Sometimes they just assume I’m a meathead, which has given me a complex that I’m trying to overcome (again, a nice guy trait of caring what other people think. I’ve also read the subtle are of not giving a fuck twice, which has helped)

I’ve done the exercises but after reading NMMNG I moved onto WISNIFG and have been working on assertiveness to help with my Nice guy traits. It’s a process, I’ve only been working on RP methods since January so I have a lot more to learn and integrate. I don’t consider myself alpha at all. I have 0 delusions about who I am. But I know where I want to be.

Thank you for your input

[–]mindfulbutgutlessMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Even though I do have a half way decent physical foot print I’m not cocky or confident about it

I would think this would transfer to other areas of your life. Strength builds confidence. Teaches you how to overcome/push through obstacles. It also provides proof that determination, perseverance, and practice will work. voluntary hardship.

Sometimes they just assume I’m a meathead, which has given me a complex that I’m trying to overcome

I say embrace this. 48 laws of power in effect here. Let the assume, it works in your favor.

But I know where I want to be.

Act As IF. Very powerful tool IMO. however you cannot go to far with it or you will seem disingenuous.

[–]JCX_PulseFreedom isn't free0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I’d never thought of working out, or training, as something to prove or reinforce to myself what I’m capable of...and I’m clearly missing out. I really like the idea of seeing my physical progress reinforce myself in other ways. I guess I have just taken it for granted. I’ve literally been working out for so long that it’s as “whatever” to me as going to work. I don’t go through the motions, I eat right and train to have a good physique, but I’ve never thought of it being anything more than that.

I’m having trouble articulating my idea here, but, put simply, I will start thinking differently about my work outs.

Haha, the 48 laws of power sent my nice guy alarms off. I’ve read them several times to try and de sensitize myself to them, but I do agree with how physical presence can be used to my advantage in my pursuit of being an integrated male.

I have to watch the video, I’m at a work conference so I don’t have audio, however, thank you in advance anyway. I appreciate your perspective and I find it very valuable.

[–]mindfulbutgutlessMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’d never thought of working out, or training, as something to prove or reinforce to myself what I’m capable of...and I’m clearly missing out. I really like the idea of seeing my physical progress reinforce myself in other ways. I guess I have just taken it for granted. I’ve literally been working out for so long that it’s as “whatever” to me as going to work. I don’t go through the motions, I eat right and train to have a good physique, but I’ve never thought of it being anything more than that.

No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.

Socrates.

This quote drives my training

[–]JCX_PulseFreedom isn't free0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Socrates saying man the fuck up!

[–]amalgamator12 points13 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I just wanted to share that I have followed Dr David Schnarch’s work closely. 1. You can buy some audio recordings of his lectures on his website and they are outstanding. 2. His later books are actually even better than Passionate Marriage. Read “Intimacy and Desire” -it’s so good. He talks about his 4 points of balance

  1. Solid, flexible sense of self (holding frame)
  2. Quiet Mind & Calm Heart (Holding frame and STFU, OI) - the ability to self-soothe and not be a pussy
  3. Grounded Responding - STFU but don’t be a pushover. Lead your wife
  4. Meaningful Endurance - tolerating discomfort for growth.

https://crucible4points.com/crucible-four-points-balance

It’s a shame these later books aren’t more popular, they are SO GOOD and Red Pill as fuck.

His latest one is Brain Talk and it explains why we are such pussies, but I would start with “Intimacy & Desire” (it’s unfortunately out of print, but you can find used copies - it’s worth the extra money)

[–]resolutions316!!CAUTION!! Runaway bus potentially ahead[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That’s cool, I wasn’t aware of his other stuff. Thanks for the recommendation!

[–]DJiamuzak7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

U/resolutions316, I love your posts. No offence but your progress is blindingly slow. To our benefit, you articulate every feeling and nuance. This helps me immensely since I have a different approach: act, assess, and adjust. Your posts help me fill in the spots I may have missed. Thanks.

[–]resolutions316!!CAUTION!! Runaway bus potentially ahead[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol - you’re welcome!

[–]screechhaterMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Better yet. Learn to actually STFU and quit talking, therefore learn to listen.

Lift. Lift. Lift. Time alone lifting allows a window to think.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nah - he just needs to hit DL9 and DL10 and not skip to 11.

[–]AechzenMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But 11 is so much fun!

[–]FoxShitNasty83Grinding3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I like this, thanks

[–]fattyfire4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Schnarch is Red Pill as fuck. Myself and the wife are doing marriage counseling with a female therapist that was trained by Schnarch. Its expensive, but it’s like using a cheat code. Having a PhD female that believes in Schnarch’s crucible therapy (which is telling your wife that she is being a bitch and that she needs to bring her best self to the marriage and make herself happy is amazing. It’s hard to hear when she is calling me out, but it’s accurate 99% of the time. There is tremendous benefit from having a wise third party call you out. (If you are mature enough to self-assess)

[–]resolutions316!!CAUTION!! Runaway bus potentially ahead[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn’t say he’s red pill. Almost nothing in Schnarch (that I’ve read) on the importance of attraction.

More like both Schnarch and MRP recognize the need for differentiation in the creation of sexual attraction, rather than traditional BP advice, which actually produces fusion.

I’m happy you’re having such a good experience though.

[–]fattyfire0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Here are two recent podcasts from our therapist (she is a guest) - you will be able to hear the Schnarch coming out of her.

http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/marriage-laboratory-podcast-higher-desire-partner

http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2

[–]KoalitativeResearch0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just listened to the first podcast. The concepts seem consistent with MRP, except for the whole part about talking about it with your spouse.

There is a general anti-couples therapy view here, and I’ve been burned in couples therapy by being encouraged to victim-puke in a way that led to my wife losing respect for me. Nonetheless, I could imagine getting positive results with a good couples therapist under the right circumstances and depending on your spouse.

Given your recommendation of those podcasts, it sounds like you’ve gotten positive results. Would you be willing to share your experience with couples therapy? Has it been helpful? Do you go into it with a particular mindset each time, such as being cautious about what you say? Or just let yourself talk and trust the therapist?

[–]fattyfire0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess I mean red pill as - "the truth". That you are responsible for your own happiness and development. You are right, MRP Red Pill is more encompassing as Schnarch won't tell you to lose weight or dress better or get your finances in order. He just says "bring your best self to the marriage" or "ask yourself, what makes it hard to be married to me" or "what is true about her complaint"? He is all about developing Frame (or differentiation) as he puts it.

[–]ExpatRights0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great stuff!! Schnark. Thanks for introducing.

[–]ReddJiveMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The Captain does his personal shit in the cabin. Not on deck for the crew to see.

[–]WeightsNCheatDatesGrinding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Boom!

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good stuff. There are a lot of redpill truths here, in different words.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Good work. There is also this body of work. Videos 9-13 are nearly 2 full hours on Schnarch's The Passionate Marriage and how it compares to red pill praxeology.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you liked Passionate Marriage - then you would love his book Intimacy & Desire. It is an easier read as he has refined his ideas over the years.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yep, reading it right now. A buddy sent me a copy and I can't figure out how to get it to my kindle but I am plowing through it on the computer. Slowly. It is much easier than Passionate Marriage and reads like a High School primer compared to his graduate level Textbook on 'The Sexual Crucible.'

[–]Kosmoknots0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Is it a pdf? You should be able to email it to your Kindle account. Or use calibre software.

[–]Reach180MRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is good stuff res, hopefully applying it helps you.

Prior to finding Athol Kay and MRP, I found this podcast called "Sexy Marriage Radio". It was overly christian, and verrrry beta. And featured a female co-host whose entire schtick was basically teaching women how to enjoy sex after having been alpha widowed (she wouldn't call it that). Anyhow, the male host was really big on Schnarch. While pretty 'purple pill'...(very bluish purple), the his focus on how to handle yourself and stand on your own two feet being attractive I found pretty useful.

It didn't help my sex life any, but once I figured out the more red pill half of the equation this helped me wrap a solid frame around myself. The Schnarch stuff gave me some guidance with understanding how to be productively introspective rather than ruminating on what was missing in my life.

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

teaching women how to enjoy sex after having been alpha widowed

ewww, gross

[–]Reach180MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah...she's a former CC who found her beta. To her credit, I suppose, she's found a way to still enjoy fucking her husband.

But her entire premise was essentially "Use fantasy to enhance your sex life, incorporate your husband into it. And men, don't be intimidated by it."

ie, "Men, pretend you're the brazilian helicopter pilot so your wife can cum."

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

one of many reasons we're always saying "stay out of your woman's mind"

Men, pretend you're the brazilian helicopter pilot so your wife can cum.

if this is happens once in awhile, and she gets her nut off it . . . . i really have zero issues with it. i've been known to replace my wife with her sister in my head while i'm fucking my wife.

on the other hand, i don't do this a lot and i don't have to do it to bust a nut. if you have to do this kind of thing all the time, you're doing it wrong.

[–]Reach180MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

100%

[–]Reach180MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Sharing” your insights about your partner’s behavior is often an expression of a need for validation.

Also applies to sharing your insights into someone else's relationshp for Reddit karma.

[–]RoccoPinkmanGrinding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great reading thanks

[–]McCoonaz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great points, this is a daily battle for me that I lose miserably a good portion of the time.

Thanks

[–]GoodWillFunky0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pure gold. I’m printing this. Thanks for this kind of contribution. Have my upvote

[–]WeightsNCheatDatesGrinding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Forget about “working on your relationship” or the idea that “the relationship is the problem.” It doesn’t work. When you change, the relationship changes. Get what you want out of yourself, and you will either like your relationship more…or be able to do something constructive about it.

I literally need to post this on the wall of my new man cave/ garage. Fucking truth right here. Needs to be hammered into my brain. Thank you.

[–]red-sfpplustells 1000 lb club pussies to fuck off0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

TL;DR: Ignore everything and keep your head in the sand so no one can hear your whore mouth when you talk.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Schnarch actually encourages the Main Event (he calls it “critical mass”)

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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