Dad tells me that concern about being right can be the reason why there's no peace in the marriage. Below are my thoughts and I welcome yours.

strategos_autokrator · 2015-03-17T07:57:07+00:00

He is wrong because he is accepting her fighting frame. When your woman starts a fight, if you try to beat her in the fight, you already lost your frame and joined hers. The key is to stay ABOVE the fight, because you recognize there is nothing in it for you, and thus it is immature and childish. It is the same to managing the tantrum of a child. You don't use logic to "win". You just do what is best for you, and ignore the rest.

When he was trying to win fights against her, in a way, he was trying to get her approval that he is right, which only empowers her hamster to be more stubborn. My dad did this too many times, and I know recognize that although he seemed strong because he was scary when angry, in reality, he was weak because he reacted to her and didn't have frame. Frankly, this comes out of insecurity, because you feel that if you don't win, you look weak to her. The thing is that is not true. The way to look strong is to be unmoved by her stupid shit. The way to be strong is to not engage in stupid fights and just do what must be done.

If she starts a fight, and you give in, you lost respect.

If she starts a fight, and you win, you lost time, vision, leadership and frame.

If she starts a fight and you are unphased by it, you saved energy towards your vision and frame, and it is more likely she will follow your vision once she calms down. This is what inspires leadership.

Read WISNIFG. It has all the techniques to do this.

she was stubborn, wouldn't give in on anything, always thought she was right, never would allow herself to be convinced, never backed down on her perception of any topic etc,

This sounds like the reason I almost divorced my wife. I'm so glad I found this subreddit and learned how to manage all this. The thing is all those are about her state of mind. You can't change the state of mind of anyone, doing so is stupid. Why does it matter what her state of mind is? What matters is her actions and behavior. If you stop wasting energy into changing her state of mind (which is her hamster) and focus them on your vision, instead of her feeling she is pushing you and you are pushing back at her, the dynamics changes to you being a train taking off to the destination, and she has to decide if she gets on the train or not. She can push and pull the train all she wants, but it doesn't change anything. And TRP says that most often women respond to this very well and want to get in the train.

Trying to convince a woman is trying to use logic to kill her hamster. The thing is hamsters eat logic and shit more hamsters. Accept this and stop wasting energy.

A captain doesn't try to argue with a first office to convince him of the course of action. He just takes responsibility for it, and if the FO is blocking it, he removes the FO from duty, not because the FO is stubborn, but because the mission is what is important, so any obstacle has to be overcomed, including uncooperative crew members.

thelotusknyte · 2015-03-17T23:39:20+00:00

I am new to MRP and I am getting beat to death by battling the hamster head on. Once you get settled into a BP relationship, the hamster becomes the monster that cannot be vanquished with a head on assault, because it never could. Like Medusa and the vampire, just don't look directly at their eyes. I am very slowly learning from all of you - thanks. "If she starts a fight, and you give in, you lost respect. If she starts a fight, and you win, you lost time, vision, leadership and frame. If she starts a fight and you are unphased by it, you saved energy towards your vision and frame, and it is more likely she will follow your vision once she calms down. This is what inspires leadership." Priceless for a newbie

marxistbacon · 2015-03-17T15:05:31+00:00

Some excellent analysis in the replies (looking at you, /u/strategos_autokrator) , so I'll skip the direct answer and go tangential. I'm curious about your story since you talk about something your dad told you, and how it (probably) had stuck with you for a long time and then you discovered why or how it's a flawed sentiment/bad advice/whatever. It's excellent that you're looking critically at the statements your father taught to you.

My own father was raised by a single mom after his dad walked out. He credits her singlehandedly with saving his life many times over as a child during the bombing of Berlin in WW2. He tells stories of her strength and courage when the Russians reached the city. He tells me often that without her guidance and good choices, he'd likely be dead. He viewed his role to his mother as unconditional support and respect in return, and elevated her almost to the point of reverence.

He married a couple of fixer uppers (damsels in distress... serious psych and childhood background issues), and seemed to think his job was to be there to support, provide, and make them happy so that they could "move past" their past. His attitude towards women he met was almost embarrassingly chivalrous... always schmaltzy compliments, deference, and elevation. It's kind of weird because while he has an amazingly sharp mind, tremendous focus and discipline towards achieving goals, and is incredibly productive and active in his own life, he has internalized this belief system towards women that I don't think he can see.

What I'm getting at is that while in TRP and MRP, we often rant on about how the abstract concepts of "society" and "feminism" and "the welfare state" has poisoned modern women and created a bunch of blue pill men, the real poisoning in many cases comes right from our own household and our own family tree. I never gave a second though to the truth or correctness of the models I internalized as a kid, nor to whether the "pearls of wisdom" handed down were really just dingleberries. It was kind of eye-opening for me to review so much of my family tree through a new lens after learning RP, and to be able to poinpoint exactly where I had latched onto false guideposts in my life. How my father viewed his mother, and how he viewed women, greatly affected my own view when I was setting the first part of my course in this life. Question everything.

thelotusknyte · 2015-03-17T13:40:04+00:00

Excellent comments already. My rule of thumb is IF I get into an argument with my wife, I have already lost. I cannot win an argument with my wife. Ever.

Even if I am 100% in the right and she knows it. She still wont respond to a normal argument in a healthy manner. Because she is a woman. So I don't let her emotions or whatever run me. I am "unfazed" by her logic/argument and I am fully in control of the situation. She just wants to know I am in control and know what to do.

Men that let their woman walk all over them in hopes of peace actually create more conflict.

As a sidenote- some women are just more argumentative. Maybe its puerto rican or italian blood/upbringing. So a "shut the fuck up" or "Quit your bitching" may actually be the correct response depending on your lady. My main go to is to let my wife go off and hamster while being unfazed by it all. She tends to correct herself now so I don't need to.

thelotusknyte · 2015-03-17T14:04:56+00:00

No quicker prescription to get you to "Yes , Dear." mode.

He's got a beta view of how to deal with disagreement helped along by his inability to handle your mom and his second wife. He creates the monster then whines "They're all like this" better just give them what they want and slink out of the way.

I don't get into pissing contests (note ...anymore for about 6 months now) with the wife.

I note they don't happen as much since getting myself back on track.

Interestingly enough I had forgotten an old disagreement we had from a couple of years ago on how the shower in our guest bathroom was leaking. Having dealt with plumbing in a diy fashion for 15 years now I figured out pretty quick what the cause was , but since she couldn't grok it , she insisted it was something incorrect.*(footnote) My old beta-days self just said "fuck it" I stopped arguing with a "I'll look into your impossible theory that I just debunked and proved mine with an actual experiment" although it was probably "Oh I'll look and see if that's it" and duct taped up the hole to the interior wall because my daughter was scared of bugs crawling out of it.

It's one of those things you do and then see it every day and forget about it.

So last weekend: I happened to have some spackle up in the master bath from a project there and I remembered the hole so I went over and patched it up (2 years later). I had just thought about the fact that I had forgot to fix it and not all the ridiculousness that led up to the duct tape.

Downstairs later I just happened to mention I fixed the wall and it sparked some old beta days reaction from her. I started to re-explain (since I thought she had forgotten) what was causing the water on the floor (back spray from an old head then following the course of lease resistance down the tile to the floor and not some mysterious non-existent pipe in a section of wall that has no pipes) when she started getting pissy and taking a tone of "NO , you don't remember that it was blah.." I had to do a double take to figure out my fuckup. OH. She probably reacted to the old issue with her old script...interpreted my informing her of the fix as some sort of "mommy approval aren't I a good boy", and her distrust of her captain (due to my over-explaining) to be doing the right thing kicked in.

Once that clicked I just looked at her and said "Oh yeah, I forgot you had that weird theory about it. So anyway... don't touch the wall there it still has to dry." and went off to do something else.

There's not getting into a pissing contest by always agreeing, then their's not getting into a pissing contest by not engaging and doing what you know is right. Any beta behavior from me is going to rightly elicit an AWALT response from her. I like to explain things, but really if it isn't her area of responsibility WHY AM I EXPLAINING THINGS TO HER? She doesn't care so her antenna will go up. My wife is actually quite helpful at keeping me on track by reacting AWALT.

Now take that and go the wrong way for years... variations on a theme. Disagreements, she tests more, you back down more, eventually she has no trust for you to lead so you finally bolt and blame her bad behavior? Your dad. Everyone can talk about what a bitch his 2nd wife is, but honestly isn't it just that your dad isn't handling himself (and therefor by extension...her) correctly? I see older bitchy harpy wives and I just look at the guy as the problem. Now that the veil was lifted. You act like a beta bitch and they will ALL act like and become that. You act right and IMO 99% of them will turn around barring some sort of deep seated psychological baggage she has (childhood abuse, schizophrenia, etc).

*Her great old standby is/was if she doesn't understand an explanation of something...the more I explained the less she believed it , this was back before the days of knowing not to D.E.E.R. (defend excuse explain or rationalize). I would go so far as to waste time and money to do something her way (wrong) just to have her finally realize it was wrong and no apology (which I didn't deserve being the drunk-captain) to me. Now I don't fuck around. I figure out what's right with something guy related and do it. In the end if I'm really wrong about something in my mansphere it's up to me to correct it anyway and failure is sometimes a great teacher so I improve. But fuck all if I'm going about it by committee. If she disagrees she's always welcome to use her budget and time to go down the wrong path (if it's something I don't care she messes up and might get some schadenfreude of watching her cuss when she sees her mistake), but I'm not having an argument about it.

BluepillProfessor · 2015-03-17T15:12:59+00:00

/u/Strategos-autokrator has been on a roll today!

Living in fear solves nothing. Not giving a Shit seems to solve almost everything.

It's one thing if you were married to a unicorn who ALSO practiced that behavior a fair share of the time, who was committed enough to making things work

The trick is IF you found a unicorn and IF you then deferred to her in everything then she would not be a unicorn long. Conversely, if she is NOT a unicorn and you lead and pass her Shit Tests, then she could well become a unicorn (for as long as you can hold your frame anyway).

alphabeta49 · 2015-03-17T18:17:16+00:00

I was going to comment when I first read this, but got distracted by all the walls of text. So many walls of text.

When I first swallowed I immediately expected my wife to follow me in all things based solely on my position in the family. Reminds me of this discussion going on now.

The fact is, because I'm more logical and smarter than my wife, I'm right most of the time. But there are times she is right as well. It took an unusual amount of willpower and humility to admit that at first.

Now, the next step is learning how to

1) Turn down her opinion with mastery when you're truly is the better opinion, and

2) Graciously adopt her opinion without losing leadership when her's truly is the better opinion.

I'll add to this when I come back from lunch...

thelotusknyte · 2015-03-17T12:23:39+00:00

when a man "gives in" on an argument even when is or thinks he is right in order to make peace

It's like opening Pandora's box. It seems like such an innocent kind gesture, making peace, but really I'd be opening myself up to a whole lot of trouble down the road. Nowadays I've gotten so used to the tension of an argument, I just kinda sit back and repeat my point of view. I was naturally doing BROKEN RECORD even before hearing about it in WISNIFG. Now that I have FOGGING in my arsenal, I feel invincible.

jamoni22 · 2015-03-17T19:48:04+00:00

Sounds like you have it right. What he's telling you is how to be a better beta.

Title	Dad tells me that concern about being right can be the reason why there's no peace in the marriage. Below are my thoughts and I welcome yours.
Author	thelotusknyte
Upvotes	6
Comments	31
Date	March 17, 2015 6:35 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	/r/MarriedRedPill
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/dad-tells-me-that-concern-about-being-right-can-be.202336 https://theredarchive.com/post/202336
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/2zbqng/dad_tells_me_that_concern_about_being_right_can/