~ archived since 2018 ~

[FR] Implementing WISNIFG for MRP; The Gift of Your Time:

July 29, 2017
69 upvotes

This post is sort of a fusion of important RP ideas (training wheels; per /u/88Will88). It's also an FR about just one way to put WISNIFG into practice in your marriage. I recently reread it and some things became clearer in how it applies to a marriage for a Redpill man.

  1. Your time is a gift, value it as such. /u/ReddJive had a good post on this concept recently.

  2. Don't be afraid of upsetting her, especially if you're laying out a boundary that preserves your precious resource of time.

  3. Remind her you are the prize by being unapologetic for your decisions. You don't "owe" her anything.

This was also sort of inspired by a recent blog post of Stoney's I read. It details a nice Saturday where his girl tries to derail and grab the frame with her emotions and an undeclared expectation he didn't agree to. Stoney sets a boundary, lets the waves crash around him and all is well after it's done. You really should link your posts here, man. It's great stuff. Anyway, I digress.

We live about four hours from the in-laws. They live in a small, country town on a lake. FIL owns boats so it's a fun time when we go. Every summer we usually go there anywhere between 2-4 weekends and once during the holidays or for the random wedding. Over the past year for whatever reason, I've noticed she becomes sort of cold, moody and sometimes downright cunty to me when we are there. Not sure why, but it's been noticeably consistent to me the last handful of times we've gone there. Could be that her family stresses her. Could be that I'm enjoying myself too much (fucked up isn't it?), or she thinks I'm imposing on time with her family or whatever fucking reason females justify being bitchy about. I honestly have no idea. The reason doesn't really matter. Her sexual availability also goes down when we are there, which is not the main issue here but a compounding factor.

When we talk about men control commitment and women control sex, remember that your commitment is most easily measured by your time.

Realize your time is valuable and your best asset:

Sometime during our last visit in May I decided that this isn't how I wish to spend MY free weekends at her folk's house. I don't mind her family and can easily have a good time while ignoring the cold, bitchy behavior ... but why should I when many of these weekends are purely recreational/optional. I usually have to burn a vacation day at work (which I don't always have a lot of) to do this and I lose my weekend at home to hobby or accomplish other things so while it's not a huge sacrifice, there is some flesh given up on my part for what is ostensibly a non-essential commitment of my time.

So what is a man to do? Years ago I would have just taken it and my resentment for her would have built. I don't like resenting my wife. Initially, I thought about overtly telling her I was tired of the "out of the blue" disrespect. That would have created a shitstorm and put me in her frame. Not the way to go. Or, I could just go for the weekend and reflect her poor behavior back? Nah, also puts me in her frame and is childish/womanly.

Reward those who value your time, remove it from those who don't:

Here's what I did do; this past weekend was the third time in a row this summer I haven't gone with to her parent's house for the weekend. Two of the weekends I had other obligations and told her I just couldn't make it and wasn't going to change my plans... but I would have if I wanted. This past weekend though? ... I just didn't go. No reason. Just told her I'm not going. She was going for a high school reunion, and I took the kids camping.

About a week ago I get a text from Mrs J while at work; "Well my sister is disappointed that you aren't coming at all this summer and to be honest, so am I. I'm going 5 weekends and you're going zero.

Mrs. J; "I just wish you would try harder. For one." I ALMOST fell for this one by replying with my grievance. I held my tongue, or fingers.

Then another; "Not even half." - I don't even know what this last one meant. Ha! My response... "we can talk about it later." No DEERing, no arguing, no over-texting.

Don't fear her anger:

I sure as shit wasn't going to bring it up at home that night and surprisingly, she didn't either but if she had, I was ready to talk about it because I'm a good husband. Fast-forward a few weeks (last week) and the wife and I are taking a walk and the topic comes up again when she made a veiled, passive comment about my lack of attendance. This was the night before she was going to leave for the second trip to her parents that I wasn't going on. This time my parents were coming in town and I don't see them often so I had already told her I was staying home to hang out with them and my brothers. In a calm and frank tone I took this opportunity to clatify the matter by saying, "I enjoy visiting your folks but if I'm being honest, your attitude has sucked the past year when we go there, and if you want me to go on these extra jaunts you should start acting (my tonal emphasis) like someone who wants me to be there." Plain and simple.

She was mad. "Wow! ok!?!?", she said.

Her mouth hung open in an expression of disbelief and indignation. A verbal shitstorm of angry words and guilt manipulation ensued all the way home. I broken recorded and fogged; "I understand that upsets you but it's what I think and is part of the reason I'm not giving up my weekends and vacation time to go with you every trip. Make it worth my while by not being unpleasant." Period... your position should end here and you are ready to fog and broken record. More angry manipulation attempts followed only to be met with more fog and repeating of my stance on the matter.

The rest of the night she stomped around the house and slammed drawers and other such womanly behavior that expresses a failure to get her own way. She furiously texted her best girlfriend (BGF) to tell her what a dick I was. I can only imagine the hamstering and half truth that diatribe was. She knew that I knew that she was texting this and at one point with a smirk I said, "what does BGF have to say about your asshole husband? Probably none of her business, right?..." This was an explicit stating by me of an action of hers I didn't appreciate (airing dirty laundry with friend). She just sneered at me.

After the kids were in bed I grabbed my phone and earbuds to go for a walk (yep, another walk) and listen to some podcasts. As I'm doing this she says from the other room, "ok, I think I've cooled off enough. I was planning on 'doing stuff' tonight so let's go upstairs. Where are you going?" Her tone said, "I'm mad but will still fuck you, but consider yourself lucky." "Doing stuff" is one of her code phrases for fucking. I simply said, "I'm going for a walk." In a confused tone she said, "Ok???" I needed to get out before I accidentally engaged in her emotional storm and I considered it a short term removal of time and attention to reinforce that I wasn't messing around with my previous declaration, nor was I going to drop everything for what she considered "me getting lucky" sex.

Came back in a good mood, acted like nothing was wrong, we "did stuff" in three different positions and went to bed. She took the kids to her parent's the next morning and I had a fun weekend by myself.

Note that what I did not do is "quit and take the football home." I did not stop owning my shit around the house as retribution. I did not "cancel Christmas." I did not treat her with malice or butthurt. I did not give her a "repercussions/or else" ultimatum (the "repercussions" were already in play.) I simply made it clear, by action, that I will no longer sacrifice my precious free time for what amounts to a non-mandatory family outing if she won't value my time and presence by simply being pleasant. Would you let anyone else disrespect your time like that? No, your time is a gift. Then don't extend your wife that extra and unwarranted free pass to your commitments if she doesn't deem it important enough to give you her pleasant and feminine company. She doesn't owe you shit and you don't owe her shit. If you gave someone a present and they were rude, mocking or unappreciative you wouldn't bother to give them anything else. Your time is no different.

She hasn't brought it up again. I am planning on going with her and the kids for a weekend in August. Besides, the FIL got a new wave runner and those things are fucking fun.

Value your time and realize you don't owe her shit. your time is a gift. As ReddJive mentioned, it's not infinite, and the older I get, the more valuable to me my time gets. Don't DEER, don't get emotional. Stick to the boundary you enforce for your own time. LET HER BE ANGRY.

TheRedArchive is an archive of Red Pill content, including various subreddits and blogs. This post has been archived from the subreddit /r/MarriedRedPill.

/r/MarriedRedPill archive

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

Post Information
Title [FR] Implementing WISNIFG for MRP; The Gift of Your Time:
Author JDRoedell
Upvotes 69
Comments 43
Date July 29, 2017 9:05 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/MarriedRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/fr-implementing-wisnifg-for-mrp-the-gift-of-your.198613
https://theredarchive.com/post/198613
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/6qdft1/fr_implementing_wisnifg_for_mrp_the_gift_of_your/
Comments

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

women know how to act when they are afraid of losing a good thing and they all need to be reminded of such

[–]RPJMRP14 points15 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Why not just tell her to stop being a cunt when you are visiting? Why not address the behavior in the moment?

You know your wife and this was effective for you, so I'm not knocking your strategy so much as playing devil's advocate.

I don't see the need for the rest of the applications in this case.

"Honey- you're being a cunt. Keep it up and no more dick for you." Wink and move on. Or just "stop being a cunt." Coupled with long eye contact and disapproval.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have made similar comments for "one off" displays of cuntyness and disrespect and for a lot of situations, I think your suggestion is appropriate. In this instance, it was a long term pattern of bad behavior that I decided to employ a long term solution for.

[–]BobbyPeruMRP Approved3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why not just tell her to stop being a cunt when you are visiting? Why not address the behavior in the moment

This. Sometime you have to nip in in the bud in a non-butthurt way.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

See my reply to GargantuaBlarg. I do this, sometimes I've done it in front of her family, but when it doesn't get any results, one has to go to other measures. What happened to acta non verba?

[–]RPJMRP3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd say they are both action driven. Both strategies result in the same reaction- withdrawal of attention, etc.

Again, I don't have a problem with your behavior. I prefer more simple/direct for my own solution. But that doesn't mean one is better than the other. The best actions are the effective ones. Yours was effective. I wanted to know your reasons behind your behavior.

Good post and discussion.

[–]SgtSilverBack3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It see it as he was exanding his tool box.

He didn't come out and say he has or has not done this before so to me it seems like he was wanting to work on his skills of directing her behavior. Could he have told her to stop being a cunt? Sure. But now he has seen a different tactic play out, he has seen how it works in his marriage dynamic and he can choose which one to use based on his experience.

He also may have gained some tools he can use in a different environment where telling a couple worker to stop being a cunt wouldn't be as effective.

[–]BobbyPeruMRP Approved2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, it depends on the situation and the woman/marriage. I like to be direct first, and then if the behavior continues, Acta non Verba - go do something better

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Why not just tell her to stop being a cunt when you are visiting?

This is not an enforceable boundary, whereas what /u/JDRoedell did is enforceable.

[–]RPJMRP5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Sure it is.

Me- stop being an asshole

Her- no

Me- withdraws attention, affection, etc.

It is a very similar behavior as the OP, except it is direct and in the moment.

[–]weakandsensitive2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Me- stop being an asshole

Her- I'm not being an asshole

Your premise has been rejected. Now what? Fog like a faggot? Logic her into seeing how she's being an asshole? Begging for her to see your view?

[–]RPJMRP1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't use much of the fogging/A & A tools. Most of those principles are based on someone being uncomfortable with confrontation or leading. I probably use A&A without thinking about it.

Anyways, the question on hand is based on a couple premises- first, my wife is operating outside of my frame. That's the real problem. Her acting out is the symptom of the sickness, not the cause.

My addressing her behavior head on is my frame. I'm not much for covert action and that type of shit. If she answers "no" she is back in my frame. She's answering directly and overtly. She's in essence mimicking my behavior. From this point, I'm gonna make her laugh with any number of quips. We are talking about someone generally being shitty on a family day. This isn't some great disrespect.

Let's take it a step further though- let's say I cannot get her to enter my frame. She tells me to "get fucked, she's a strong independent woman and I can't tell her what to do."

Cool- then she isn't getting any value from my presence, right? Someone's words are assigned meaning or weight by me. If my wife is acting like a 15 year old, I'm gonna let her sulk in her room like one. I'd give her the same amount of weight as I would anyone acting like a 15 year old. I remove myself from the equation. Take my son fishing and let her deal with her shit.

It's the same behavior as the OP. It's just addressing the behavior in the moment. The OP made a plan and saw it through. It was effective, I don't have a problem with it. It seemed like a whole lot of shit just to deal with a wife behaving poorly on an outing.

The whole enforceable boundary shit is a useless argument. Unless you are high value, of course you can't enforce a boundary. However, if your wife wants you and everything that comes with you, then boundaries are straight forward. Let her know what you want and she'll get it done.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hope more newbies read your breakdown because I completely agree.

Cool- then she isn't getting any value from my presence

Instead of trying to win and/or be proven right.

[–]Gadnuk_1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Question: how do you withdraw attention and affection without seeming butthurt? I've tried it a few times to correct shitty behavior, but sometimes when I withdraw attention it comes across like sulking and passive aggression, IE severely beta behavior.

This could serve to undermine my own frame. My feelings aren't hurt, I just have standards that I demand are adhered to, and I will not reward any failure to adhere to said standards. Any advice would be greatly appreciated

[–]RPJMRP4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Mean it. Internalize it.

If you're really not butt hurt then let her interpret how she wants...if you're high value and she interprets as your pissed at her, you'll likely be getting an apology and her looking for forgiveness.

If you're not high value in her eyes, she is likely to test that frame to see if you're pouting. Again, if your goal is to get away from someone acting poorly, then I don't think you have to change what you are projecting.

So if you are pissed your princess isn't acting the way your covert contract is demanding of her? That is a fucked frame.

If you no longer want to be around her because she is taking away from the day instead of adding to it [ there's no hidden agenda] then you should have no trouble laughing when challenged on your mood.

Her- "Oh, I guess you're pissed because I snapped at you? Get over yourself."

You- "no way honey, I wouldn't trade your company for anything in the world." Wink and head out.

You- "really? I didn't notice you had snapped...you think your sister got a boob job since we saw her last?"

You- "that's it, no more sex for you." - and you better be ready for the retort at this ludicrous statement which is her entering your frame.

You shouldn't be taking her behavior personally or seriously anyway. The vast majority of exchanges between husband and wife that resemble the topic in OP is the wife feeling overwhelmed or in her emotions about one thing or the other... so why would you be butthurt to begin with? Do not live and die by whatever words tumble from your wife's mouth.

The best way to not appear butt hurt is to not be butt hurt. When she accuses you of being butt hurt laugh in her face at how ludicrous the idea of you getting worked up at her temper tantrums...which is what we are talking about here- A woman acting like a child.

"So I guess you left earlier because you wanted to punish me..."

You- "punish? What are you rambling about?"

You- "say again, your shirt distracted me..."

You- smile, don't say a word.

You- "ask me about my weeiiinneeerrr"

You- "can you speak from your knees? Everything sounds smarter when you are in that position."

Have fun. Don't think if you fuck up it will mean a divorce. Try light and fun first. Intensity should be reserved for the extremely rare case. Think Roger Sterling from Mad men. He let woman and pussy run his life, but that disposition is what you should be going for in this type of situation.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good take on being in your own frame. The key is to not get riled or butt hurt and to not be afraid of whatever emotions you pull out of her.

[–]Gadnuk_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, I think the main point I'm missing is to just have more of a fun attitude with it all. Solid example about 'your shirt distracted me' it helps demonstrate the careless demeanor I need to work more to cultivate.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

So you have to burn a vacation day to go on this trip to see her family. You say her dad owns a boat, which is fun...why else are you going there? I mean...say your wife didn't exist, and you had the chance to go for a weekend and do whatever it is you do there. Would you?

Because it seems to me the reason you arent going is because of her attitude. In other words you are deciding how to spend your weekend based on her.

Now if it's the case that you have fun stuff to do there anyway, and you'd go anyway if she didn't exist, then you are shooting yourself in the foot by not going. If, rather, it's the case that you have cooler shit you want to do even if she wasn't a cunt there, then you shouldn't be going because you have cooler shit you want to do instead.

 

As for the boundary...yeah, you are setting one. In a very overt, very diplomatic way. You are negotiating compliance overtly. I don't see how thus is any different than:

"I enjoy having sex with you, but if I'm being honest, your attitude has sucked the past year when we do it, and if you want me to be happy/satisfied/nice to you, you should start acting* (my tonal emphasis) like someone who wants to be there."*

When your wife starfishes, is this the conversation we have? Or do we lead her to what we want, and if she hard no's we stop and say "eh, this isn't working for me" and go do something else like RPJMRP is saying. "Stop being a cunt" is leading in the moment. "I don't go because you're mean" isnt.

 

That said. I see you getting the idea of saying no and not feeling guilty. But as you said in your last post, you don't need her. You can either have fun there without her...or have fun elsewhere. If you so choose, you can lead her to being pleasant there too, but you need the OI of being ok if she doesn't turn pleasant. And by telling her "I don't come because of you"...you effectively tell her you don't have OI. You give up that power of persuasion.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

say your wife didn't exist, and you had the chance to go for a weekend and do whatever it is you do there. Would you?

Yes, but with women or people that I enjoy. Like I said, these trips are sort of extra time spent with her family. I don't always go, even when things between us are good.

Because it seems to me the reason you arent going is because of her attitude. In other words you are deciding how to spend your weekend based on her.

Yes, you are correct here but I frame it differently. I spend my time with those whose company I enjoy and vice versa. Why would I continue to give her my time if she doesn't value it? So if me doing something else more enjoyable with my time as a result of her behavior is being outcome dependent, then I'm guilty. But I refuse to continue to do the same thing if it doesn't suit me.

We can't control others' behavior but we can control how we behave and how we choose to spend our time. That's what this post is about. If I continued to offer my time and presence to someone who wasn't pleasant and I do nothing about it, it shows a lack of self respect and confidence.

Now if it's the case that you have fun stuff to do there anyway, and you'd go anyway if she didn't exist, then you are shooting yourself in the foot by not going. If, rather, it's the case that you have cooler shit you want to do even if she wasn't a cunt there, then you shouldn't be going because you have cooler shit you want to do instead.

Again this is a trip I don't mind. I enjoy her family, I enjoy what we do there... but i also have many other things I could also do and be perfectly happy. To me that's true OI. I'm just prioritizing my choices based on what value I get out of those activities and if she wants to be cunty then I'll happily focus my free time elsewhere.

As for the boundary...yeah, you are setting one. In a very overt, very diplomatic way. You are negotiating compliance overtly. I don't see how thus is any different than:

When your wife starfishes, is this the conversation we have? Or do we lead her to what we want, and if she hard no's we stop and say "eh, this isn't working for me" and go do something else like RPJMRP is saying. "Stop being a cunt" is leading in the moment. "I don't go because you're mean" isnt.

When I've done my best at leading her to better sex and am the most attractive man I can be and she starfishes, I walk away. I do something else with my time.

To clarify, when she becomes unpleasant, I do sometimes call her out on it right then and there and give zero fucks how she responds. I've done this while we are on these trips but eventually, I'm going to remove my presence for continued bad behavior. I disagree that not going with her is not leading. I'm leading by taking my presence and time elsewhere.

That said. I see you getting the idea of saying no and not feeling guilty. But as you said in your last post, you don't need her. You can either have fun there without her...or have fun elsewhere. If you so choose, you can lead her to being pleasant there too, but you need the OI of being ok if she doesn't turn pleasant. And by telling her "I don't come because of you"...you effectively tell her you don't have OI. You give up that power of persuasion.

I see what you're point is here, but again, I don't agree. My removal of time/presence is my persuasion. I do have fun there even when she's bitchy but I don't HAVE to continue calling her out on her behavior. I do plenty of leading on weekends and on big vacations with the family. OI is vital, yes, but so is showing you value your time with your actions.

This has been successful for me. It may not be a level all guys have to go to with their wives, but it works for me.

Thanks for the comments and critical analysis my friend. Helps me calibrate my thinking on this.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Bottom line, in your speech to the wife, where you Rationalize to your wife why you are choosing not to go...do you think if she turns around and starts acting (your choice of words) like she wants you there, will it be because she desires to not be a cunt, or because she is obligated to not be a cunt.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

will it be because she desires to not be a cunt, or because she is obligated to not be a cunt.

My answer to this would be; "that's up to her." I only control myself.

The scenario I wrote about depicts how to remove your positive presence for bad behavior, not how to compel her to do something I want her to do or be (i.e. Better sex). If we were talking about rationalizing to her about why she should fuck me more, then I'm 100% in agreement with you. That would be a faggoty thing to do for certain.

This is a good discussion in the "weeds of red pill" and it's important to tease these ideas out. You've made me think a lot here. I look forward to discussing it over our next beer.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Out doing some practice tonight. Still not where I want to be. But learning. Lemme know when.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good for you, man. I do better with a wing man

[–]weakandsensitive5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I saw bogey comment - so this must be interesting.

Not sure why, but it's been noticeably consistent to me the last handful of times we've gone there. Could be that her family stresses her. Could be that I'm enjoying myself too much (fucked up isn't it?), or she thinks I'm imposing on time with her family or whatever fucking reason females justify being bitchy about. I honestly have no idea. The reason doesn't really matter.

Obviously it does matter - otherwise why even point it out? If you can't figure out why she's being cold either directly or implicitly - what does that say about your social awareness and your ability to add value?

About a week ago I get a text from Mrs J while at work; "Well my sister is disappointed that you aren't coming at all this summer and to be honest, so am I. I'm going 5 weekends and you're going zero.

Mrs. J; "I just wish you would try harder. For one." I ALMOST fell for this one by replying with my grievance. I held my tongue, or fingers.

Then another; "Not even half." - I don't even know what this last one meant. Ha! My response... "we can talk about it later." No DEERing, no arguing, no over-texting.

And where did you invest any effort crafting the narrative? It seems like you straight up autistic'd it.

"I enjoy visiting your folks but if I'm being honest, your attitude has sucked the past year when we go there, and if you want me to go on these extra jaunts you should start acting* (my tonal emphasis) like someone who wants me to be there."

Just because the tone is calm doesn't mean the message isn't acerbic. Here's your fuck up though - you're making you statements instead of I statements.

For example, "I'd enjoy being there more if I got more attention and affection from you. And I like being home too so that's what I'll end up doing sometimes or most of the time". See how you're now the primary actor and she's secondary? The second sentence is optional depending on how transparent you want to be.

I think if you framed it as matter of fact instead of as confrontational, it wouldn't have been confrontational.

More importantly though - I don't see the value add in the interaction. I think you went about it in a more autistic way than necessary. How to win friends and influence people should be on your list. Congratulations on no longer being a passive aggressive pushover and all - but you should really think about how to frame it as win/win. Or at least not win/lose/fight.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I was wondering when you were going to show up.

Obviously it does matter - otherwise why even point it out? If you can't figure out why she's being cold either directly or implicitly - what does that say about your social awareness and your ability to add value?

I don't always see it as my job to understand or fix her feelings, even when I've caused them by making a decision she doesn't like. If anything, I'm probably too aware of her mood swings. Being less affected by them, not more, would have helped me to just let her emotions move around me and AM the whole thing. Now that I say it, this is another area I could improve on that would probably have made this whole thing a non-issue.

And where did you invest any effort crafting the narrative? It seems like you straight up autistic'd it.

I don't get into these things over texts. That's never a winning formula for frame control. My effort came later when I told her what was going on. I crafted the narrative, admittedly not as win/win as I could have, during the walk when she challenged me on why I wasn't going again.

Just because the tone is calm doesn't mean the message isn't acerbic. Here's your fuck up though - you're making you statements instead of I statements.

For example, "I'd enjoy being there more if I got more attention and affection from you. And I like being home too so that's what I'll end up doing sometimes or most of the time". See how you're not the primary actor and she's secondary? The second sentence is optional depending on how transparent you want to be.

I think if you framed it as matter of fact instead of as confrontational, it wouldn't have been confrontational.

This advice I can get behind. This makes a shit ton of sense. Other than the part about directly saying to her that I'd enjoy more attention and affection from her, which is just not something I'd say and honestly sounds pretty beta and needy to me. Maybe you're being sarcastic here. I'm not sure.

I do like the more non-confrontational "I" verse "you" phrasing you suggested. I see how this would have been better. She still would have been mad, but overall it has a better message from a position of power and OI. As I told bogey, this was sort of an experiment and I learned a lot from it.

More importantly though - I don't see the value add in the interaction. I think you went about it in a more autistic way than necessary. How to win friends and influence people should be on your list. Congratulations on no longer being a passive aggressive pushover and all - but you should really think about how to frame it as win/win. Or at least not win/lose/fight.

I can't disagree here. I could have framed it as a fact and not as "it's your fault." I know you're big on value but my goal wasn't to add value, it was to set a boundary. At the end of the day (literally) it was small potatoes. She hasn't brought it up again and life has gone on. Thanks for the suggestions.

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't always see it as my job to understand or fix her feelings, even when I've caused them by making a decision she doesn't like.

Rule 1 is be attractive. What is Rule 2? You're not there to fix her feeling.

Obviously it does matter - otherwise why even point it out?

This is really the point. I think at some level you realize it did bug you - or maybe you realized that you were failing rule 2.

I know you're big on value but my goal wasn't to add value, it was to set a boundary.

People are going to be more likely to respect your boundary if it's beneficial for them to. If your boundary isn't beneficial to another person - what makes you think they're going to respect it? Respect or fear of you? If you recognize that people are inherently selfish - then be as self serving as possible by providing scenarios where others can indulge their own selfishness while you benefit from it.

If, for example, the expectation is visits to the family are more couple time instead of you hang around while she focuses exclusively on family time - it might be better for both of you. You said somewhere that you enjoy going with her sometimes, minus the vacation day and time cost, so reframe what the purpose of the visit is.

If it's not couple-y enough for you, or you're bored, go find something else to do up there. Dive bar. Go for a drive to the beach. Whatever - or even something on your own that suits you.

I got with my wife to see her family pretty regularly - once a year or so. For the most part, I recognize it's family time, but I get treated well and fed even better. She's got a different rhythm there with more people to focus on. However, every couple of days, we gallivant on our own - maybe it's to the beach, into the city, out for a drive, etc.

If your aim is to start fights - you're going to find a way to do it in your body language and subcommunication. Serious fights only lead to resentment. When you fight - you want to play fight over stupid shit.

Similarly - I'll admit to pretty much everyone I'm selfish. If making you happier is self serving for me, I'll absolutely do it. If making you happier is a meh for me, good fucking luck. I make no apologies for it. So it's in your best interesting to make me want to make your life better, because I'm pretty good at it if I want to be.

By the way - we are talking minutia and mental reframes of scenarios so this is more advanced stuff of how to get your life zen balanced.

during the walk when she challenged me on why I wasn't going again.

Did you have a better answer than "I think you're mean to me when we're there"? I'm sure you had a better answer for her, but reading through your posts and comments - that's essentially what it boils down to from where I stand.

I wanted to play with the balance of being assertive about my time and her behavior

On a tangential note - what's the deal with guys not being in control of their own time? Feels like a recurrent theme here and in life. For example, over x-mas my wife and daughter are off to Europe again for a month. I'll fly with them to Florida and we'll spend a few days there before they run off. As for me, I'm making plans to hit SE Asia with some guys. Why are you guys so intent on not spending time apart?

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Rule 1 is be attractive. What is Rule 2? You're not there to fix her feeling.

10-4. In this case I decided that continuing to let her unpleasant behavior go on was unattractive of me. Could I have been ignoring the underlying reasons for it? sure, and I can admit that and you've made me think about the "why" in all this. I may come back to my original conclusion but I'm not so obtuse as to not think about it in a different way. On the other hand, I don't believe that every time my wife gets bitchy that it's traceable back to some shortcoming of mine. I'm somewhere between you and 88Will88 on the "culpability of women's behavior" spectrum. Sometimes she's going to act like a bitch. It's their nature, I can't do anything about those instances and I'll let it burn itself out or use other tools to address it if I start seeing a pattern.

I think at some level you realize it did bug you - or maybe you realized that you were failing rule 2

I'm going to keep thinking about this one.

People are going to be more likely to respect your boundary if it's beneficial for them to. If your boundary isn't beneficial to another person - what makes you think they're going to respect it? Respect or fear of you? If you recognize that people are inherently selfish - then be as self serving as possible by providing scenarios where others can indulge their own selfishness while you benefit from it.

I couldn't agree more. This is exactly the dynamic I am trying to communicate to her. I just could have done better communicating my goal here on MRP obviously. This time I decided i was going to go about it in a different way. When we visit her family, my presence is reassuring, fun and I can be an outlet for her (if she wants) when her mom, sister, whoever is pissing her off. However, if she deems it not necessary to be pleasant, or she takes her frustrations out on me in such a way, I'll remove that presence. It reminds me of your post about your wife mocking your helpful advice about why her computer is running slow. You made it known you didn't appreciate the behavior in response to you trying to help her.

I've learned the balance of this with my wife over the past 10 years of marriage. I remember one time after we were in the car driving away from her parents and she said, "arggggh, my family can drive me crazy. Days like today, I'm glad we live 4 hours away." Then she vents to me about it, which I don't mind letting her indulge in from time to time.

If it's not couple-y enough for you, or you're bored, go find something else to do up there. Dive bar. Go for a drive to the beach. Whatever - or even something on your own that suits you.

I do this often. I go for a run, go in town to grab a beer with the BIL. I treat these trips like I treat any other weekend at home for the most part.

She's got a different rhythm there with more people to focus on.

This is a clue for me. My wife is the same. In my more BP days I was probably too needy while at her parents, not able to pick up that her attentions were divided with family. It's possible that, even though I've stopped this over the past two years, she anticipates the same rule #2 breaking faggy behavior from me and preempts it with her poor behavior. The changes take time to manifest. I'll keep this in mind.

Similarly - I'll admit to pretty much everyone I'm selfish. If making you happier is self serving for me, I'll absolutely do it. If making you happier is a meh for me, good fucking luck. I make no apologies for it. So it's in your best interesting to make me want to make your life better, because I'm pretty good at it if I want to

I agree with this frame

Did you have a better answer than "I think you're mean to me when we're there"? I'm sure you had a better answer for her.

The gist of my answer was that I don't like spending a free weekend there if her attitude sucks. Pretty simple. Your win/win delivery would have put a better spin on it though.

On a tangential note - what's the deal with guys not being in control of their own time? Feels like a recurrent theme here and in life. For example, over x-mas my wife and daughter are off to Europe again for a month. I'll fly with them to Florida and we'll spend a few days there before they run off. As for me, I'm making plans to hit SE Asia with some guys. Why are you guys so intent on not spending time apart?

I feel the same way. This was the drive of my post. It was aimed at the newer guys I see struggling with owning their free time. Showing it's ok to prioritize yourself, especially if she isn't being appreciative of your time, was one of the messages I wanted to get across. It's been a great help for me to understand this and I want to pass it on. You brought in some extra things to consider that my post didn't recognize and exposed some weaknesses (which I always appreciate).

I can give details if you'd like but I make very few compromises for my free time. I take at least 2 guy-only trips a year, hobbies a couple times a week, my workouts. Last minute texts like, "grabbing a few with the guys from work." She rarely gives me pushback. Hell, sometimes there are days we are home together but barely interact, not out of malice, just because we are both doing our own thing. We spend plenty of time apart. I also spend plenty of time with her. We visit family, watch Netflix, dates, I plan weekend outings, etc. Now that the youngest can ride without training wheels, I bought the wife a bike that I'm tuning up so we can get out together. It's a good balance for me.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

It reminds me of your post about your wife mocking your helpful advice about why her computer is running slow. You made it known you didn't appreciate the behavior in response to you trying to help her.

The thing most people failed to take away from that was the reprieve was very temporary - and that was very important.

The gist of my answer was that I don't like spending a free weekend there if her attitude sucks.

So don't? I don't see why this needs to be complicated. If you're not having fun, why not leave and just head back? Don't have money for a car? Take a bus? Ride a bike? Complaining feels good, but it's ultimately useless if you don't have a solution in mind. Always have a solution in mind.

How much more freeing would it be if you knew that if her attitude started sucking, you could just book it and leave - all while she is perfectly aware of the exact reason why? If you actually had an exit plan, don't you think she'd be a bit more considerate considering how potentially social embarrassing it'd be for her?

This was a really good post. My main point is simply this, no matter the circumstance, don't be a victim of circumstance.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you actually had an exit plan, don't you think she'd be a bit more considerate considering how potentially social embarrassing it'd be for her?

you mean you inform her of a specific plan?

When ever I have had to do this with mine, I usually just ghost. Its the ability and willingness to ghost rather than the plan..

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Body language communication + previously set expectations.

"Hey. I'm pretty bored. I'm gonna take off. See you at home."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

just to be clear, you are not telling guys here they should tell their wives that if they are bitchy ( or what ever negative thing) "the plan is I will take an Uber to the nearest titty bar"

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

i'm only talking to JDRoedell

[–]bogeyd6MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Great field report. Lot's of context and we actually get to learn something. You have a lot of back and forth and breaking of frame going on here. It reminds of trying to get in a canoe by yourself. Read through some of your replies on here and pretty solid stuff. I could make an argument that you can control what she does.

Much of the advice in the thread is to carry this out overtly. Not a bad way to handle as long as you stay honest about it. My advice would to have not turned it into "well you are a cunt so I am not going" type of situation. This is done from a position of weakness. The conversation could have been had that you believe that it doesn't bring out the best in you so wanted to concentrate on this or that with the children or for yourself. No matter how you approach it, she would be upset with you. The worst thing to do would be to put it on her. Obviously she has done nothing wrong.

How would I have done it? I would plan out my summer the way I wanted to, and if I were free to go one weekend then I would go. Instead of brooding over her failures and shortcomings, I would turn it into planning something fun for you both to do together. She probably doesn't like being there and is probably doing it out of some fucked obligation women think they have to do. My wife is the same with her mother, yet we keep going.

Last, you held that covert contract like a hundred dollar bill in a hurricane didn't you? Until at least you decided to release it. You were upset about something that she could not have known about. All women are the center of the world.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the feedback. I'll admit this was an experiment of sorts that I was fully conscious of. I wanted to play with the balance of being assertive about my time and her behavior vs just STFU and being endlessly OI about her behavior, which I think gets over recommended sometimes. Either way, I'm getting good feedback that shows a few ways my thinking was off.

You have a lot of back and forth and breaking of frame going on here.

Ya, I'll concede that. I made the conscious decision to make an open, verbal statement to back my actions. But in doing that, I did then entertain a level of back and forth, but my side was fogging and broken record.

I could make an argument that you can control what she does.

It's possible to control someone's behavior, yes, but my point was that if it doesn't work, I'm not going to get hung up on it.

Much of the advice in the thread is to carry this out overtly. Not a bad way to handle as long as you stay honest about it.

Maybe I didn't communicate this effectively in the interest of brevity in my FR, but I have directly addressed the unpleasantness in the past on several occasions. Things like telling her to stop acting like a bitch. So the contract is not as covert as my original narrative may have depicted. I have gone direct and overt before doing what I did this summer.

My advice would to have not turned it into "well you are a cunt so I am not going" type of situation. This is done from a position of weakness.

I can see this.

The conversation could have been had that you believe that it doesn't bring out the best in you so wanted to concentrate on this or that with the children or for yourself. No matter how you approach it, she would be upset with you. The worst thing to do would be to put it on her.

I like this framing. Thanks.

Obviously she has done nothing wrong.

Sometimes I forget the power of solipsism.

How would I have done it? I would plan out my summer the way I wanted to, and if I were free to go one weekend then I would go. Instead of brooding over her failures and shortcomings, I would turn it into planning something fun for you both to do together. She probably doesn't like being there and is probably doing it out of some fucked obligation women think they have to do. My wife is the same with her mother, yet we keep going.

I already do this for the most part. Planned a weekend with friends at the lake for Memorial Day, planned 4th of July party, took the wife to Thailand for 10 days this year as a few examples. I make sure to get my vacation/leisure time in for myself while also leading her on these trips. She has changed her tune greatly since I started doing these things.

The trips to her family's during the summer are usually "extra" short excursions. I still maintain that my presence on these are optional and I was simply asserting my expectation of her behavior if I am going to give up my time and energy to go on every one.

Last, you held that covert contract like a hundred dollar bill in a hurricane didn't you? Until at least you decided to release it. You were upset about something that she could not have known about. All women are the center of the world.

As I said above, I left out some context to this story (that being that on several prior occasions I did let her know that her behavior sucked). So I considered my removal of presence to be me asserting my stance more overt. Maybe it matters, maybe not. Either way, I now see where this did get into CC territory and I thank you for pointing that out. I've been around here for about 18 months and still make mistakes. The best way to find those mistakes is to sometimes take chances. In this case, I said to myself, "what happens if I do this...". Sort of like pushing unknown buttons on the dashboards of a new car or other piece of equipment. Is it wreckless? Maybe, but it gives me perspective.

[–]bogeyd6MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You are about to turn a corner when you can start trying some of these advanced concepts on for size. We all mistakes and the best thing to do is learn from them. Would you have thought you could be at this point in your marriage 18 months ago?

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wouldn't have dreamed of pulling such a "dick move" 18 months ago.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Seconding /u/Bogeyd6. Don't see new field reports as often, and I love reading the ones that I can learn a thing or two from.

I can't wait to see how your revelations trickle down into your day to day decisions

[–]bogeyd6MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I get a little mrp stiffy when someone sets a boundary and doesn't cave.

[–]UEMcGillMarried- MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Something stinks in Denmark.

You're boundary assertion was alright; although as said it was like closing the barn door after the horses got out. The time for addressing behavior is always now.

My real question is why is she a cunt when you are around her family? Women feed off of their environment. Put my woman in a room full of family and add dinner on top of it, and she is literally in her happy place. Why when you are added to the mix does she treat you like shit?

In all that interaction what did she hamster as her reason? Surely there is something more to this?

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My real question is why is she a cunt when you are around her family? Why when you are added to the mix does she treat you like shit?

It's only when we are visiting her parents. She's fine when parents or sister visit us. My only guess is that her family has been stressing her out lately. There's been drama between her parents and aunts/uncles. As I stated to w&s, I'm always trying to be her oak in these situations (if she seeks me out.). Otherwise, I stay out of it.

In all that interaction what did she hamster as her reason? Surely there is something more to this?

She did put some blame on her family's feuding but other than that, she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about.

Edit: this was part of my response to w&s as well as another possible reason "why" the behavior change at her parents.

In my more BP days I was probably too needy while at her parents, not able to pick up that her attentions were divided with family. It's possible that, even though I've stopped this over the past two years, she anticipates the same rule #2 breaking faggy behavior from me and preempts it with her bad attitude.

[–]nooomaam2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm willing to bet FIL got a wave runner to entice you to come hang out with him.

Excellent post on saying your peace and not acquiescing.

[–]thatboyjeff0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The look on her face when she was "planning on doing stuff" and you went on a walk must've been priceless. Hahaaaaa!

Edit: and good job staying in your own frame. I've been just STFU a lot lately and not losing my cool in certain situations and it's paying dividends. You handled shit like a boss. STFU and low level dread game has proven a tremendous change for me personally.

Subbed for updates.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not letting her rile you up over small things is the key.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2022. All rights reserved.
created by /u/dream-hunter